Ah, maybe I should delete the two threads I've just started on CA and WBF, asking if anyone has any insights about what might be causing W8 to sound weird.

Looking forward to hearing what you've come up with though...

Mani.

Huh? It seems totally clear to me that Stefano does not like Unattended.

Mani.

This is difficult to answer because the "good stuff" is a moving target. I think we get used to it. For example, for the last few days, I've been using a totally different digital front end including a Mytek DSD DAC instead of XX and my NOS1. Only when I put the NOS1 back in the chain did I realise how bloody good it is. I mean a quantum leap better. So someone coming to visit me will probably hear what they consider the "good stuff". For most of us, it's become an everyday listening experience. But still not totally 'real', hence our continuing quest.

FWIW, in my office/study I use a pair of old Celestion SL600 speakers. I doubt many would consider these right up there with the best of the best. However, I'm pretty confident that being fed as they are with the XX/NOS1 and Bert's super amps, I'm getting more of the "good stuff" than many, many audiophools could even imagine.

Mani.

I've had W8 installed in my office system for nearly two weeks now. Although I've only used it only a few days in this period, I really have used it for pretty much the whole day. And no problems at all. However, I can't remember how much of this time has been in Attended vs. Unattended - I suspect mostly in Attended.

It's playing right now in Unattended and I'll keep it this way to see if I can replicate the issue.

Weird sound though - almost as if all leading edges have been accentuated. Weird, but strangely attractive...

Mani.

Paul, Nick, if you happen to be meeting up any day this week, I might be able to join you. Just let me know...

Cheers, Mani.

Haha, as soon as I had the NAA/Mytek setup in my main system yesterday I thought how similar it sounded to W8 in minimize mode - impressive and annoying at the same time.

On a total aside, a few remarks about the Mytek. When I first got it, I thought it was really very good for the price. I'm going to revise this (probably not a good idea as I'll probably want to sell it soon). It's about right for its price. Nothing at all special about it. You'll read people raving about its DSD performance. I have to say that I think DSD is sh*t. There is something seriously wrong with it. I mean, it's 'dead'. All the life has been sucked out of the sound. I tried so hard to like it yesterday. I tried some old pure DSD recordings from DMP and some new recordings from Blue Coast... and just had a headache by the end of the session - I'm serious, and I'm the sort of person who just never gets headaches. I think my brain is being asked to work much harder when I listen to DSD. It's as if there's a blanket over the sound, and my brain has to fill in the information that has been lost or recreated badly. And I don't say this lightly. I've recently invested in two DSD recorders with the intention of recording my rare/valuable vinyl in DSD64 and DSD128. But there isn't a cat's chance in hell that DSD will be able to capture the sonics available on my vinyl. Pure PCM at 24/192 gets so so close...


Hmmmmm...

Mani.

Yep, these things are difficult to talk about.

I'm all for control, if we have an idea of exactly what we're controlling. I mean, can anyone tell me why changing the SFS changes sound the way it does? I mean, universally we find that a lower SFS sounds 'brighter' and more 'airy' and a higher SFS sounds 'richer', 'thicker' and more 'dense'. This is pretty much consistent across the board.  Does anyone (you Peter?) actually understand the mechanism driving the sound here? There's obviously a 'sweet spot' and maybe a simple Linux installation hits it first time?


I'm pretty ambivalent towards the exact OS being used. My initial search was actually driven by trying to eradicate all switch-mode power supplies from my dedicated mains ring. I tried an Atom PC with a linear PS, but it wasn't a good fit with XX. I then came across the NAA concept. I could use a high-powered PC on the house ring connected (with galvanic isolation) to the NAA, which itself was powered by a high-quality linear PS. The biggest downside I found was not being able to use XX or the NOS1. I have a lot of respect for Miska, but I prefer XX over HQPlayer for a number of reasons. And as for the DAC, I simply refuse to use anything other than the NOS1 in my main system.

As for Linux, I have no idea whether it's better or worse sounding than W7/W8. But remember, I'm not talking about using a Linux software player, but rather using a Linux buffer.


Yeah true. When I first tried Miska's NAA, I could detect a difference in sound between the music being stored and played back from the main PC's internal HDD vs. a NAS drive. BUT... the difference was much less than say changing the SFS setting in XX. And also, I can't remember how I had things configured. It may well have been that I had something (the LAN switch, the NAS, etc) sub-optimally set up. In any event, I intend to look into all this again...

Mani

OK, here’s my take on all of this… FWIW.

When I first heard W8 in minimized mode, there was something so different (and attractive) about the sound that I stayed up half the night listening to music and enjoyed every minute of it. But interestingly, it was pretty much all rock, and the ‘edge’ added to this type of music by W8 (in minimized mode) seemed to bring it more to life – it gave me a bigger kick.

But it’s definitely a ‘strange’ sound. Actually reminiscent of Windows Server, when I played around with this a few years ago. You’d come out of a listening session with a buzz in your ears and slightly disorientated. Very similar.

Right now, I think we have to admit that we’re so far off our ultimate quest – to eliminate the effects of the OS on the sound. And this is not surprising – as other people have said, the OS designers hardly had SQ at that top of their priority list. But what Peter has given us is a way to tweak the OS (and a bunch of other things totally unrelated to the OS which help massively with SQ) to get the best out of it, and as a result, we can achieve a very reasonable sound that exceeds any other digital transport that I’ve come across.

But this situation really, really pisses me off. We’re always at the mercy of the OS. Maybe we should just resign ourselves to this and do what we’ve done in the past whenever a new OS or an SP1/SP2 comes around – pool our resources to find how to get the best out of it using all the tools in XX. It’s a lot of work and bloody frustrating for us, and I can’t even imagine how it must be for Peter. But what other choice do we have?

Well, a couple of years back I decided to try an alternative approach to see if it had any merit. It was Miska’s ‘Network Audio Adapter’ approach. I won’t go into details here (just do a search on it), but essentially it tries to really eliminate the effects of the OS on sound, acting as a (galvanically isolated) buffer between the main PC (with W7/W8 and software player) and the DAC. I have it setup right now in my main system, and even with a Mytek DAC, which is clearly massively inferior to the NOS1, I’m getting a really nice result. But most importantly from my perspective, I can make changes to the main PC which seem to have zero impact on the sound. For example, there seems to be absolutely no difference in sound when XX in engaged in the main PC and used to switch between normal or minimized state. I know that not all services would have been closed down without XX being used as the player, but still there should be a big difference in resource usage between the two states. And yet the sound through the NAA seems unaffected.

My next step will be to compare W7 and W8 using an NAA. And what if I find there is no difference in sound? What if the type of hard-drive makes no difference? Or the number of devices connected to the main PC? Or whether you’re using PAN, LAN or even wifi? If all these things make no difference, then I think we can assume Miska is really onto something.

So where does this leave us? Here’s my ultimate dream setup:

- main PC with W7/W8 (shouldn’t matter at all)
- although HQPlayer is cable of excellent SQ, and even though most of the controls in the Settings area should become obsolete, I’d rather use XX
     - I prefer the library management
     - I really, really want to use phase alignment
- of course, the NOS1 DAC – it’s simply the best I’ve heard

What would it take to achieve this dream setup? Obviously, Peter and Miska (Jussi) need to work together on it, and find a mutually beneficial way to do this. There would need to be appropriate drivers made for the NOS1 to work under Linux. And I think that’s it. Let me tell you, I am willing to put in as much effort and energy (and contribute financially if necessary, albeit with limited resources) to make this happen.

Meanwhile, let’s do what we've done in the past - get the best out of what we have. Peter, a PM is on its way. I’ve got a problem with my W8 drive (I don’t think it appreciated being uplugged whilst being in minimized mode) but I’ll reinstall W8 no problems. W7 is still working perfectly.

I hope I’ve not spoken out of place with this post. Just sharing my feelings.

Mani.

Nah, AM for sure.

Mani.

Just finished watching this with my wife. I don't want to raise any expectations, so will just say that we both really enjoyed it.

Mani.

No, it's got nothing to do with the NOS1 or XX - I never had this issue with W7.

Edit: To make it clear, I know there's a tick when the NOS1 is switched on. But I leave it on always, unless I need to disconnect it altogether from the system for whatever reason.

I've just tried a cold reboot now and there wasn't any sound at all. So it seems a bit temperamental - even worse from a heart attack perspective.

Mani.

Thanks George. It definitely disables the option of turning the start-up sound on/off (see below - check box is now greyed out and inactive).

BUT EVEN THIS DOESN'T STOP THE BLOODY START-UP SOUND!!!

Bert's suggestion of muting the applications' sound seems to work, though I still get a loud tick on start-up and don't fully trust it. Peter's suggestion is sure fire, but means changing sound devices from time to time.

Mani.

Yeah, but I'm getting into listening to Spotify and internet radio through the NOS1. This allows me to totally remove the preamp from the chain (in my office system), which is great. I'd really prefer not to have to continuously change sound devices.


Thanks Bert. At least this will help with heart attack prevention. But again, I'll have to keep switching this on/off when I want to listen to Spotify or internet radio (I assume).

If the bloody start-up sound on/off option would actually work everything would be fine.

Mani.

Now this is just too much. I have start-up sound switched off (see below). I have the volume control set to 100% because I want to control the volume in XX.

AND I GET THE BLOODY START-UP SOUND!!!!!!!!

Let me tell you, it's not nice coming through 114dB/W speakers!

Bloody W8!

Mani.

Bert, I don't understand what you mean. In Normal OS, the vol slider continues to work no matter what (see below). Exactly what did you do to deactivate it?

Mani.