Hi Peter,

Indeed, first of all, ChrisV must get the credits primarily. He is the starter of a process that will be benificial for many with the same problems (although some may be not aware of them by now). Ok, I give those credits wholehartedly because it is his advise that has pointed me to some kind of accepable solution. Not yet a full solution, but one I can live with.

Thanks also for your attention to my long story (took me a little more than one day to give it this quality). And thanks for the compliments for my clear use of english language. A 35 year reading history about audio subjects (much HiFiNews etc) gives some background for handling words. Also my real 37 year long working career, where I had at low and high levels of organisation much to do with close reading and critical writing, left some traces. Never been in tropical aerea's, only worked in great service institutions in Holland. Last 10 years were 'tropical years in a rather cold and wet country', busy as a projectmanager in changing buisiness processes and building up content strategies for information management (with computer contribution). At nearly 62 - as a 'lucky victim' of a reorganisation - I can use all this expierence in another way during (pre-)retirment. It is very handy in a context of personal e-learning while using internet.

You can imagine that I have some comments on your reply. So here we go:

That is quite a clear and bold statement: do not use a laptop for audio pc. That will narrow the amount of users of XXhighend I expect significantly. For my own 'peace of mind' I translate your statement to: laptops will always be a compromise. That's indeed because there is too much into one package, I think, they are simply no desktop exchangers. Although I have payed for a full blown media 'thing', I have to dismantle the burden on the operatingsystem significantly to get an acceptable audio performance. With WMP/Foobar I have reached results I can live with when only working on several programms while listening to music. Every now and then a click or stutter - now I know when they happen and that they are action-related - is for the moment acceptable. For a dedicated music pc for my little music room it is not the solution. At that place I am getting in the future an appropriate desktop PC that is up to the task.

One question: When WMP/Foobar functions nearly correct - so no apparently identifiable interuptions in the audiostream, although we know they are still there under the bonnet to some extend - can I expect that XXhighend will function accordingly? The proof is naturaly in the pudding, but I want to build up an hypothesis first that can be tested. I only ask you for your (not tested) opinion or expectation.

I will next week test in a local store a full blown gaming desktop pc for latency problems with the Checker. When that Vista PC gives no latency problems than I have again a clue and a proof of your statement for not using a laptop when you have really high expectations. I will use my 'normal' test sequences with the same usb-amb and phone, so the results will be comparable with the results on a laptop (I assume).  When I get the chance I will also try out XXhighend in download version. I really think that a off the shelf desktop computer must be up to the audio pc task with Vista, not many people are in the situation to manipulate setting afterwards in an effective way. Looks fun to me to see what happens during the test. Will let you know the results.

Another question from a really uninformed standpoint: is it so that XXhighend uses the video card (Nvidia 8400 M gs, 128mb) or the Realtek audio card or neither of both when you uses USB out? In other words: how dependant are they from eachother? Or can Video Card and Audio Card disrupt audiostream also when they are not directly used?

As far as my information goes this laptop has a integrated video/audio card fixated with the motherboard, so a solution for another card for those functions is not likely to find. It is also the question if there is a possibility to intervene in some factory settings. Or is there something I overlooked?

The following part of your text it not yet quite clear to me: "Either way, thank you very much for a great contribution some of us are hunting for. In this context, please do not make the mistake that when your dropouts have vanished you should be satisfied; it has by now been proven sufficiently enough that the less the OS is performing, the better the SQ becomes. I know, this is easily said from someone who indeed can do what he wants with the PC, without the sound being interrupted (which I think is the case with 99% of people), but I only want to indicate never to be satisfied with just no clicks and all being there. This, of course, starts counting in when you indeed use XX for playback, and have experienced the benefits of PC playback with respect to SQ."

Are you saying that 99% of people has problems with interruptions or the otherway around..............?

The other parts of this text I can fully understand: never accept an inappropriate functioning computerconcept, also when you can not get full grip on the matter at that same moment. I suggest that every customer for a new computer simply takes the Latency Checker and use it real time in the store before purchase (every store has internet, so it is a quite easy and revealing test). Every computer that is not flawlessly functioning when you are planning to use it for pc audio should not been ordered. That gives any consumer some power to put on retailers and their networks (with buying an automobile we all know how to handle shortcomings! And you never buy an automobile whithout a trial ride or?).

"I know, this doesn't sound much respectful according to all your hard work. On the other hand, this remark is in the context of my own Vista PC showing yellow bars only (where they sure should show green), and your posts just tempt me even more to make them green."

Good attitude, may be there will be some spinn off for other computerconfigurations than yours. When you succeed you have achieved also solutions for XXhighend-users, Gamers and Pro Audio Proffesionals.

Pieter.

Faze II: Process and results of further investigations to find paterns:

During several weeks that followed, I studied much information found on the computer itself (help function etc), found much on the net and searched on basis of advises from some experts. The following actions were done on basis of that information, while looking if there was something to discover by myself  with the Latency Checker now constantly visible on screen:
-   my son did some extra installation checkups, all seems all right. We tried to disable some applications but could not find one that make the red bars to disappear or cleared up some pattern.
-   Consulted HP and retailer again. Laptop technically functions according to specs. No usable extra advise at that moment. I think may be much so because I could not make things really clear (= rock solid) and visually repeatable (typically communication between amateur and expert). They advised to use some other drivers, no success. Sometimes they try to put things on third parties responsibility (always the same trick I have read elsewhere), but I could contradict that.
-   ‘knowing’ that all drivers and system updates were ok (all automated you know!), SP1 was downloaded and installed. All things functioning still ok after that, quite a relieve. Start up laptop was really fast now,  feels as ‘faster than my XP’!! In reality, they perform now exactly the same from pushing the power button to start using Google, around 100 seconds needed before I can go to the first site. Before SP1 I could easily take the time for bringing in some coffee. So far -  for me - one internet hyped myth around Vista is broken to pieces. This performance is fast enough for me and my wife.
-   After SP1 was installed it ‘looked’ also to me that the red bars and stuttering were less frequent than before……..but still intruding into the music. No clue about a specific cause for that, still no repeatable patterns for me to detect, but they must be there.
-   After several hours monitoring I decided to check all the drivers again and for the case of elimination not trust the automatic updates. Just as an assumption that needed checking, I thought. Right I was: Nvidia 8400 GS needed an update,  so was Realtek HD audio and some other non MS drivers. No spectacular changes were seen afterwards, but also nothing was worse than before!
-   Because I could not fully trust the update info that was registered already in the computer (different version numbers and dates for example, manufacturers use sometimes their own codes and legenda’s! How about user friendliness and comparable data!?). I decided to give all the drivers an update again through ‘update system driver’ (a function discovered under the hood in the laptop), I have administrator rights I had also discovered. Again some drivers were – fully unexpected for me  - reinstalled with a newer one (I hope!). I also used some freeware to check for latest driver versions, I found differences. So I think this update business is rather inconsistent from a consumer point of view, certainly it makes you uncertain . In the end I did not use those freeware update suggestions.
-   Now I was investing so many hours anyway, I decided to (re-) install all the drivers that were mentioned on the HP site for my type of laptop, although HP automatic driver update function was always on. I divided the updates into 4 fazes, so I had some check in between and that I could go back (did this for the first time, so it was a great but a little nervous learning process; no, I do not need a system maintainer for this kind of thing anymore). This was a good final and reassuring check, because most of the time I get the signal,  that I already had ‘the best driver available installed’, but some drivers (yes, also a BIOS update!) were updated again! May be with a newer one. Lesson: double check when you ‘think’ you have the ‘latest’ driver!
-   In the evening of that day I tried my music set-up again in combination with some daily used MS program’s. I ‘thought’ I was seeing again less red bars and for sure sometimes during an hour no red bar at all, so no stuttering during that hour. I thought that all the time-investment in rounds for the driver updates was beneficial. With that result I could live. So I went very content to bed.
-   Next day tried again, first hour no problem at all (no idea afterward of what I was doing on the computer), after that the same less frequently symptoms as usual. How to proceed now? I had no real clue.
-   I decided to monitor again all the events seen on the Latency Checker. After a couple of days (!) I observed some patterns in my notes. There were three distinct symptoms, that frequently appear: some single and standalone red bars around 2500/3500ms (say type I), some around 30-90.000ms (type II) and some vey well above that sometimes maxima even more than a half of a million (type III).
-   At some moment when I was busy on Internet with Internet Explorer it ‘suddenly’ became evident that when I scroll intensively with the touchpad the type II red bars immediately arouse. To some extend this was also the case in Outlook and Excell. In between, I had discovered also that WMP and Foobar or the dvd/cd drive were not involved (only present opinion). At that moment I did not use audio, only the Latency Checker was on screen, so audio only suffered from the consequences of what was provoked elsewhere.
-   To make a rather long trial/error based story short: I discovered, that in relation to heavy scrolling in the sidebars of some programs (IE 7 the most obvious) I could provoke every time and easy that second type of red bars. No matter if I use wheel or touchpad buttons. After that I saw/discovered that there were always 3 of such type II high bars behind each other and with a systematic interval of 30 seconds. Only again no ‘system’ in the maximum height of the red bars. Each of those three bars provoked always systematically clicks and/or stuttering in the audio chain.
-   Both other types of bars (I and III) have no relation yet to something I can detect from an action from me as the user (may be there are some suggestions to further investigate this). The lower red bar (type I) gives most of the times no stuttering or crack in audio. The very high bar is very seldom there and was only seen a couple of times when I left the laptop for an hour or more. It was never seen during working on the laptop. So both types are in practice not significant anymore for me. But the other one’s are too frequent and irritating to ignore.
-   After this I consult HP Service again. This time with a good and repeatable symptom description and with some verbal luggage to discuss things on a more equal level. They take over the screen on my request and I could repeat the symptoms for themselves instantly (seeing is believing). They also could that provoke themselves. After disabling the UAC (‘gebruikers account beheer’ in Dutch, not needed, I have no network and there is only one user account), side bar already closed, disable some kind of mouse activity and disabling all non MS programs (except Firewall Mcfee and Synaptics for touchpad/mouse; uninstalled Norton in the first place) it looks that the problem provoked by scrolling was under control. Those functions/programs – so I was told – put a rather high burden on the resources of every Vista based computer (could be, I do not know, but I really have ‘seen’ some progress in problem solving during the consult). Customer satisfied.
-   But regrettably, later that day after some additional torturing with the mouse and touchpad that particular (type II) symptom was there again (within the IE 7 context). Only when I was working at slowly to normal handling speeds all things functions all right without red bars (so the HP interventions had some impact, I must admit).
-   Now, only when using Internet Explorer 7 did the symptoms occur on provocation! Other programs gives no symptoms anymore, I could not provoke the symptoms there (they were there before). Tried that also on another laptop with similar specs (AMD 64 with only higher RAM) in the store, same red bar symptoms working with IE7 only in slightly other height pattern. The audio stuttering was the same. On their wireless net I provoked the same type II symptoms with my own laptop (again only when using IE 7), with exactly the same three-time intervals of 30 seconds and irregular heights in the red bars.
-   I looked further into IE 7. Extensive searching on the internet led me to an advise to install/use Firefox 2 as a browser (afterwards I heard more users repeat that advise). After doing that I was only with very unrealistic and absolutely extreme scrolling able to provoke (only sometimes) the same sequences in the red bars of type II.
-   This looks like ‘problem solved’. There is another version of Firefox on its way with even better results. But for now it is version 2 from Firefox that I am going to use. IE 7 only on occasions that are unavoidable.

Within the last 50 hours of usage of the whole chain (so audio included) I did not heard any stuttering, clicks etc again on my headphones (when I use the mouse or touchpad in a ‘normal’ way no type II symptoms were found). At this moment, when my program-combination is used, the Latency Checker gives for hours and hours a rather continuous score/mix of green and yellow bars. It cruises between 200 ms and 1000 ms, with some peaks to below or above. Still too high, but ……Yellow/green is generally divided by around 50/50. Sometimes there are periods of around half a minute with XP like performance (all little green bars, no real clue found yet, but there is hope……..), sometimes the yellow bars go to around 2000 ms, still no stuttering to be heard. There are only sometimes little ‘ticks’ of low amplitude, also irregular hearable, absolutely no clue for cause, nothing to see on the Latency Checker. But those little ‘ticks’ are not annoying at all, they do not intrude into the music enjoyment (resembles LP static noise from the old days). This all is ok for me, the annoying one’s are tamed, that was the goal.

Some afterthoughts:
The latest attempts are to get even better Vista audio performance, because in my view there is still some ‘dirt’ under the bonnet. I have run the Latency Checker again on my XP computer (Pentium 4, 2,8 Ghz, 512 Mb Ram, no tuning done at all in the last couple of years and absolutely some outdated drivers running, so a quite dirty pc). What I see is a steady green with very low bars, all around 100 ms,  much bars below that, maxima never goes over 350ms. No changes what program combination is in use. The Latency Checker gives splendid low green bars. No wonder my audio setup has never gave any stuttering problems using that machine.

So I think that Vista based systems need still some serious tuning, initiated by the producers and their sellers. The word ‘system’ is used here by me in a ecologically way. I am really not interested in OS performance as such, I want a really good performing system outcome, so hard and software needs to be presented to me as a whole with no interaction problems at all. 

Looked the last time again into Gaming sites and some Pro Audio. There are still much latency problems observed. Because I did not wanted to stop here, I contacted again HP customer service. The status is, that they will look into the problem again. I have no complaints about their intentions to solve the problem and I think other resellers/retailers have the same problems but are hiding them (see experiences/reviews on the net with brands like Asus, Dell etc). I have a ‘case number’ so I will follow them critically without every time telling the same story to another service deck person. I think that all Vista based systems should at least run with as low latency as XP (when principally possible, because there seems to be some basic technically differences, I read about).  May be I am asking too much too early, but without asking/pushing by customers there will be no progress (computer business = like ‘water always seeks the lowest point’; do not give them the chance!). I will let you know the results for my ‘case-number’.

Now, my personal problems with uninterrupted audio signal seems to be solved I can go on within my own configuration. May be some extra cleaning up of my laptop and throwing away not used programs (come within the OEM version of Vista)  can free some extra resources under the bonnet for an even smoother functioning of this laptop. May be also ‘a clean install of vista’ is something to be done in my case. I know there is a legal way to get a clean version extracted from a OEM version (look at Notebookreview for a HP based one, it is said on that site that the procedure can also be used for other brands). But that is something to be done by an system expert for me and is not urgent at this moment.

For the time being I expect, that my laptop is able to use XXHighEnd to its full potential. So lets more music comes in than I already enjoy. Within reasonable time I am going to ask my son to help me with the correct installation of  the trial version of XXHighEnd. Help is needed, just to be sure that I put my fingers on the correct buttons. I will look again into the sticky files for how to start etc. Looking forward to hearing the results in my audio rig. I will feed XXHighEnd with the same music, that I use in my other audio test situations, so I can compare some of my impressions. I will post my findings, observations and judgments.

With respect to the Latency Checker I can only say that it was of great help for me to get more control over ‘the bag with hay’.

Only, the L-checker advise to check all your drivers and/or malfunctioning program’s was not enough for the full solution, in my case. It seems more complicated. My computer reported at first glance systematically, that all programs were functioning correct, that there were no conflicts between them and that all the drivers were updated to the correct version. But, I have learned now that a thorough time consuming check up can help to lower the staple of interrelated problems even more. In my case the symptoms were diminished to three types. With a little help of ‘lucky chance’ I could detect a relation between scrolling and the most irritating type of symptoms.

I do not believe I would ever detected this when I did not were in the position to invest many, many free hours now I am retired. Never too old to learn something about some hidden digital things.

Some general guidelines for problem solving (from my standpoint that is and please feel free to comment, I am only an amateur on this subject):

-   Use the latency checker for quite some time on the screen during working and/or listening to discover some real time patterns. Take notes and try to relate eventual observed patterns to user actions in relation to specific program(-combinations). May be there are also computer type/configuration/brand specific symptoms.
-   Do not seek a solution in putting in more RAM or better motherboards, higher spec video/audio cards etc. at this moment. When you have a quite recent and competent configuration this seems not the first option. At this moment there is no obvious repeatable connection to those kind of technical updating (risky statement, but some gamers have already tried that path, with ‘throwing money at nothing’ and to find no solution for their actual latency problems during gaming on a Vista based machine).
-   Install SP1 as soon as possible, it helps also to get a more clear view on the remaining problems with data interruptions that affects audio (it takes also away some bad behavior in the sphere of latency, although it is not clear where and why).
-   Double check all driver updates, do not trust automatic updates on forehand.
-   Try to experiment with some user interface settings available in Vista. Seek for some lower burden settings without loosing all the look and feels of Vista.
-   Accept only for the time being that Vista has still (latency) problems (in the beginning XP was also not optimal, I read everywhere), but for audio mostly the latency problems (that is also the stuttering/dropouts) can be put out of the way for uninterrupted real time data streaming for audio (for some kind of heavy gaming or quality recording it is a whole other story, so I read on specific sites; but what in the future is ‘good’ for them is always good for audio, so look out for progress in those areas).
-   Try to experiment with disabling devices to find a cause for the red bars or to minimize the burden on the system. When drivers are OK than you can not expect too much from this path.
-   Disable user account control when not strictly needed.
-   Get real expert help to supervise you with the more deeper changes in your system (think of clean install extracted from OEM Vista version, Bios settings, Registry, PCI optimization etc. are often named on different sites/blogs as contributing to better latency performance).
-   Go also for putting pressure on customer service (we all can find them when our cars are subject of critics; why not when sub optimal computer-systems are delivered,  hard/software distributors have to fight each other in the interest of their customers, not the other way around).
-   Only for audio: accept for this moment a sub optimal latency performance in a Vista based computers as soon as there are no stuttering or clicks to heard in the music. With some mix of green/yellow bars you can already enjoy music without interruptions.
-   To be expanded…………
 

When some of you have some further practical suggestions for me to get an even better functioning laptop for audio or to proceed with this investigation I would be glad to hear them from you.

I hope I did not put too much a burden on you with so much detailed prose in a world that is reduced to zero’s and one’s. Success with your own search for uninterrupted audio data stream.

Pieter.




Update from last week:
In consultation with HP service my son has on my request executed a ‘system restore’ to the situation at the moment of purchase of my laptop. Full backup is arranged, so I can go back to above mentioned more or less click/stutter free situation. Goal of this move is to explore basic technical problems or conflicts in the hardware on this laptop that are subject to guarantee issues. Well we see. Till this moment I am really content with their intentions for customer service, I hope they deliver the goods….. Since this system restore and (no real interventions in the original factory set up!) all the clicks and stuttering symptoms are back in a more severe way, quantitatively just like at the start of this investigation. I am very curious about the things that are going to happen. I will inform you all of the progress or the lack of it.

In search for better audio-stream behavior on Vista PC using Latency Checker as a monitor instrument. Long story.


Introduction:
The text below is a detailed compilation of my experiences and experiments in the last four months. I was trying to reach a clean uninterrupted audio signal from my Vista based laptop through USB out fed into a dedicated USB DAC Headphone Amp in combination with some very good Headphones. I experienced clicks, short dropouts, stuttering etc from the beginning (medium January  2008). All in all quite irritating but may be solvable. As a beginning I read some observations from others on this site and elsewhere with quite some consequences.

It is quite a long story, but may be that some of you can benefit from this kind of detail and/or give (me) additional suggestions/advises. I suspect my results till now are also valid for some other brands with Vista based pc’s (tried recently several in a store, fundamentally the kind of interruptions of the audio stream). This is not a story for readers with an attitude of ‘two  steps, fast at home’. Otherwise read on, I hope I can catch some of your attention.

My objective at the start of 2008 was to use a laptop in the living room, that functions properly with some easily available audio machines (WMP or Foobar2000). Although ‘functioning’ is something else as sounding in the best possible musical way! This laptop should give me no conflicts when multitasking with Word, Excel, Outlook and Explorer (or other programs) while listening to music. All program’s at the same time in use or ready in the background. Also, only when that combination functions properly it becomes possible, that my observations when using XXHighEnd for the first time will be in no way influenced by not detected and solved problems elsewhere. So this whole detailed undertake is also about preparation.

In advance, thanks for the strong advise from several of you, esp. PeterSt, to take the jump to install the Latency Checker. I have used this instrument in the past two months very intensively as a monitoring tool by placing the checker all working day at the right side of my 17 inch screen, sometimes the windows performance checker from the task management program was also included. That way I could (learn to) follow some things that were happening behind all the knobs, screen and casing and look for clues or causes for ‘clicks’ or ‘stuttering’, when audio was in use.

First of all I want also to state, that I am absolutely new to system maintenance and/or technical aspects with respect to computers. I only am used to common use of some program’s. For example, my son installed Vista (OEM) and some windows applications and did the initial settings. I really did not understand how to do such installation and/or was afraid to make mistakes.  After several months I learned already a lot (of words, easy for the ‘in crowd’, sort of slang). But the deeper functions and settings still are a complete mystery to me. At that level I need severe supervision because those possibilities goes totally over my head. I have not any ambition to dig into those deeper layers at all. My only objective is to extract the best possible audio from my laptop (=quality output from a ‘black box’).

Research faze I (many without use of the latency checker):

From medium January 2008 on I am using this HP laptop, advertised as ‘designed’ for Multi Media use. It is a dv9630ed, 2 Gb RAM, Intel duo core 1,5 GHz, 120 GB Hdisk, Nvidia 8400 M GS/ 128 MB, OEM Vista Premium, separately Office 2003 installed. I have waited a long time before I took the decision to buy this one, because I wanted to be sure that my laptop could work with Vista and would deliver a ‘very good’ audio signal. Gaming and/or video/dvd were not the goal, may be in use a couple of times a year or so. No, the machine must on a daily basis do some (simple) multitasks while also using it as a cd player. At that time I was not yet familiar with the possibilities of a dedicated off board extra hard disk (not that that could solve my problem), let alone that I had discovered that there was something in the pipeline like XXHighEnd. Waiting time was possible because I had a good Dell desktop pc with XP Pro (from 2003) that produced a good audio signal (with WMP and Foobar2000) into my USB-dac headphone amp. This setup has functioned for several years in a for me very satisfactory way. And this setup still is ok (only it should run a little quieter, but that is a whole other story; decoupling it from the desk helped a lot). Never experienced any dropouts, clicks or stuttering in audio on that XP machine.

In the beginning I only used the Vista based laptop stand alone quite intensively for mail, internet, excel, word, all at the same time available and used fast after each other. It all functioned perfect from the beginning, conform my expectations. Not for any moment I missed XP Pro. This machine with Vista ‘looks en feels’ good for me and is in my living room a really good replacement for the desktop in the hobby room. Until today this Vista based machine never crashed or needed a restart after some user actions or misbehaving programs. This setup could start a little faster and I wanted to see the waiting symbol not so many times.

Functioning good for those daily tasks it was time to get also some audio pleasure out of it. After some problems with the settings in WMP/Foobar and with the help from some advisors I get a good  ‘signal’ through USB-out (WMP/Foobar set for 16 bit/44.1, buffers at max, internal volumes at max, volume of the head amp in use, all DSP disabled). I started with a simple audio test setup (low-fi phone) just to getting to know the complete setup/chain better and to work with a low risk profile in the beginning (I did not want to blow up my better headphones). After some time I began to hear sometimes cracks, very small dropouts, stuttering or noises like that. At fully irregular moments and irregular duration in between. Irritating and quite disappointing for a quality laptop. Where to look? A process of elimination started, leaving all possibilities open.

At first I thought that it could be caused by some of my cd’s in combination with some wrong Vista or WMP or Foobar settings. May be also hearing recording artifacts (although I never heard those before on other audio chains). Questions asked all around (HP service, Retailer service, several experienced system maintainers). Looking into WWW (lots of hits for this kind of symptoms, Googled for word combinations: latency or vista problems, stuttering audio, clicks, pops, dropouts etc etc, looked also at sites specialized in Gaming or Pro Audio). Mailed to the factory of the headphone amp about possible compatibility issues (none found as expected). All agree that this kind of problems with Vista exists, even Steve Ballmer has admitted that audio on Vista has still its problems (see interview in The Graduate, Jan 2008…….., no one ever heard from him after that about that issue…, make your own conclusions). May be ‘I have to live with it, for the time being’. Many, many times Vista is bashed totally and many criticizers ‘upgraded’ to XP or leave the MS scene completely. This all can not be fully true and fair. Or?

Nobody seemed to have real solutions either, for me only some suggestions into the wild (other priority settings, Bios interventions, registry settings etc). Interesting observation is that the BIOS settings for my laptop has changed from the installed version F.33 to the latest one F.53 ( Quite some changes within 4 months! Are ‘they’ really working on the problems for us in the background?). Those above mentioned technical interventions are for me totally out of the question to try. Most of them are quite over my head to understand. Many advised to install XP Pro again (in that case nobody have to think about some more complicated things anymore; quite lazy I think, but it still is a very economical move from a ‘non user’ point of view, a general computer company culture problem, may be?). 

More or less by accident I discovered the XXHighEnd site. Reading most posts gaves me some further motivation and hope for solutions, so I simply had to look into it myself. The only risk could be that I also could not find any solution, my time is for free thus no risk at all. The most striking on XXHE for me was, that Vista with engine#3 was the preferred combination. Developer and beta-testers were all using Vista machines with no problems of the kind, that I had encountered (or they had already solved them but their solutions were hidden for me in all the posts). Also they were/are using machines, that mostly had nearly similar specs as my laptop.

So my assumption number one was that my laptop in the end must be capable of an uninterrupted data stream for audio! But where to look  for an amateur within this bag of hay. Much because of my lack of knowledge it has taken quite some time to investigate things and find some solutions. May be some silly and weird things were tried also, it is up to you to judge.

What was ‘not’ the cause of the symptoms of stuttering in audio in my case:
First a list of what in my view and judged at this moment were not the cause of the symptoms and (as a consequence) for the cause for my dissatisfaction (based on many hours of trying/thinking/reading/retrying/asking questions etc. Oh, all done before installation of Vista service pack 1, some later observations were done with the Latency Checker in use on screen constantly while working with some program(-combinations):
-   tried many different cd’s (originals, ripped, downloaded one’s), also used some HP delivered tracks from laptop hard disk; they all produce the same irregular symptoms, even within the process of using the same cd, also some of the not so newer ones with scratches or some fingerprints on them. Clicks/stuttering appears in audio and on the Latency Checker red bars all around; some bars stand alone, some besides each other, sometimes nearly all yellow bars, there was for me simply no ‘system’  in their appearance to detect. No screen prints needed here, all looked alike those that already are published on this site and elsewhere (keep this in mind when reading further).
-   tried Foobar2000 and WMP with different (buffer/volume/DSP off etc) settings, both gave the same symptoms on the Latency Checker and on the headphone.
-   disengaged the head amp and USB cable and used only laptop headphone out, no real changes, same stuttering on irregular moments, only sometimes more hidden and less revealing than the offboard amp (which is quite logical because of the quality difference in transparency). Also heard the stuttering through the on-board speakers, but those are cr*p anyway, but it shows that the problem was upstream in my view (also not USB 2.0 related!).
-   looked into list of MS updates on the laptop, all looks fine. Automatic update function for Windows is used.
-   looked at list of HP driver updates for this type of laptop, nothing special at that moment. No need to update something was reported from the HP update function.
-   looked into the performance checker on the laptop, to see that there are all the needed specs for using Vista inclusive Aero. All found OK.
-   tried out several program combinations during the day, irregular symptoms stayed, no clues at that moment.
-   tried out the remote control of our TV, my wife was watching TV while I get some red bars in latency checker. No relation found.
-   No spikes either when washing machines and refrigerators were busy.
-   disabled the fax/modem, no change. Tried several other device disablements, also no change detected by me at that moment.
-   observed the influence of GSM telephones in the near distance (in house and outside). No symptoms of relationship. No Blue Ray things were put at working    anyway (when you  use those they could attribute to problems, I read at several sites).
-   tried wireless ADSL and no mail or internet connection at all; also tried cable connection. No difference with respect to the unwanted symptoms that I could detect.
-   Looked frequently into CPU behavior and RAM use, no problems there as far as I am a trustworthy observer, always much headroom available; sometimes some really higher CPU use, but no relation to clicks or stuttering.
-   Tried different settings of user interface in Vista, no instant effect on symptoms. Using now ‘windows classic’ theme. Plan to go back to full Aero.
-   Tried different power outlets in the house, also different power blocks of known audio quality, again no clues. Tried also battery only use.
-   Tried out Ready Boost. Unexpected, it gives slightly better audio performance for me esp. at the frequency extremes, little more transparent and controlled sound field, also better decay and ‘overtones’ (as such interesting,  needs further investigation for real audio value; may be Ready Boost puts less strain on hard disk activity and/or (mini) power supply rails with some slight effects in the functioning of audio, who knows? May be I am betraying myself after a good night sleep…we see). But all in all same irregular stuttering symptoms.
-   Another symptom with Ready Boost was that in the first minutes when injected the extra memory there were on Latency Checker only yellow bars at steady 1000 ms high, after that the processes stabilizes to the same 50/50 green/yellow pattern as without ready boost disk (used full 2Gb from Corsair Flash Voyager, usb disk type theoretically up to the task, may be I should also test a 16 Gb disk also, something for the future; in combination with upgrading from 2 gb Ram to 3 or 4; although no relation found yet for stuttering problem, so I am not ready for financial injection into a not clear problem, I am not going to throw money into a dark cage but ‘bigger is always better’ is tempting…).
-   And some more observations…………..but it all feels more and more like a great impasse around using Vista with the XP upgrade dilemma at the horizon.

How to proceed even more systematically because I want really to get rid off those clicks and stuttering?

So, I had to bring some heavier guns into use. I decided to do it more systematically and more fundamental (from my point of view that is). So at last I tried again the Latency Checker (studied the description again, before I did not understand it really for its full potential) and also put those performance clocks in the sidebar at the right (later I used the other task management possibilities also). In that way I could follow some digital events more real time in the hope I get some clue or see some pattern where to look further into (with my little knowledge base that is!).

What I was observing was: there was/is always a relation between the rather frequent, but not constant red bars and the clicking/stuttering heard trough the music. I never found any stuttering, clicks or short dropouts without a red bar on the Latency Checker. All those red bars appear at irregular moments and with different maxima, ranging from 2500ms to several hundred thousands ms! I could not (yet) put my finger on something repeatable other than stuttering = red bar. Green and/or Yellow bars could never be related to any stuttering. OK, that’s also the wisdom/message of the Latency Checker itself, but I want to find out the pattern or cause for the irritating ones and there the Checker is lacking real information.

The symptoms gave me the (analogue) feeling or association, that quite some internal computer processes at the same time were struggling for priority and were in some cases tumbling over each other resulting in hidden problems that causes identifiable disruptions in the audio data stream. There were some 55 processes running on my ‘total’ system , I have seen, and as far as my knowledge goes that is nothing spectacular within the context of Vista.
OK, such a observation or internal status is probably immediately obvious for any programmer, experienced system tester or technical expert and they can put earlier than me a finger on that kind of processing things (I imagine), but within all information I found on the Internet I could not find some simple practical steps to be executed by ‘simple’ end-users to diagnose and solve the problem. Most end users also have no access to sophisticated system maintenance utilities or test facilities. Only you can hire some expert who will try to solve problems, but they give you after that a big bill that spoils all the pleasure. So I was relatively on my own, I have already invested my money in the laptop itself.

see next post for continuing story

Hi Peter,

Intersting puzzle or may be even a cryptogram on audio. First of all I do not have heard any track of that band untill now. But your observation intriques me. Also I am not a guitarist. I hope I have not misunderstand your post, so be it. Nevertheless some questions arise that can be of (little) help:

- are a didicated guitaramp the same as a audio dedicated amp? I have understand always that both are a little different animals with different goals. Especially a guitaramp is a special and integrated component to be used with a electric guitar. I think that was the reason for advising by the retailer of your guitar. Also guitarists use deliberately some kind of overdrive to use distortion paterns to create a musical taste or impact of their own. So my question is: are both sort of amps interchangable in such a way that in both situations the desired acoustic results are to be expected? OK they will both work electrically and make sound, but are they really comparable qua usability?

- another question is that of the acoustic circomstances; three totally different situations, two direct amped and the other from some recording on cd or whatever medium (much can happen as we all know between live performance and some endresult on a replay medium). Also there are uncertainties about bass energy handling (electronic, acoustic  or combined) in all three situations. Is it dynamics, soundlevel, narrow banded acoustic cancellation in the living room, not full synergy in the audiochain or just a special sound(-energy)result generated by the guitar, guitarist, guitaramp chain.... I do not know.

- Why not try the following: do you have an above average headphone and dedicated headphone amp, if yes: try the Gare du Nord tracks with some cd player in that chain. By that way you cut out all three other electronic/acoustic situations temporarily. If the bass is in that chain also dissapointing with respect to this energy point than I think the recording (or the copy of it) could be suspect. If not we have to search any further. If you have no access to a laptop/headphone rig I can eventually help you out in the process of eleminating, because I have such an above averidge rig that is easily movable. The below mentioned tracks give me more than enough bass energy with respect to expected transparancy in my livingroom and on different very good headphones.

-  do you have access to some well known tracks with kind of energetic music lines that can be compared to the tracks from Gare du Nord? I think of tracks from Michel Jonaz/La fabuleuse histoire de mister swing/especially 'le temps passé'; Robben Ford/Blue Moon/various tracs; Music from the film the Gladiator/different complex bass loaded tracks; some tracks from KODO Live at Acropolis; some tracks early recordings Dire Straits (private investigations comes to mind) or Michel Hedges on metal string guitar.......But undouptedly you have your own examples. Give your own examples of comparable low end tracks the same symtons in your audio in the living room?

Wish you much succes in your trials and I hope you find the solutions.

Pieter.

 

Severed: Thanks for your kind words.

I fully agree with your statements that a good presentation is something that can only be achieved with changing room/speaker interaction/placing. A common pittfall is bying new equipment and/or cables (mostly heavier components, more power, nicer outlooks, more pricy etc) to solve some problem that lies elsewhere. Many high end retailers and equipment reviewers stimulate this kind of uncertainties and lack of insight so that dollars, euro's and pounds roll their way. I myself fall into several pittfalls of the same kind, lessons learned I now try to achieve better results with less costly means. Many 'good' but a bit older components have hidden qualities, I believe.

In my little hobbyroom (14 sqm) I experimented with decoupling of some two way systems, in combination with an old but very good cambridge cd player and an integrated little tube amp (pp, only 8w max). At first a rather mediocre result, nothing special. But decoupling those two way speakers and the complete frontend by using some natural corc discs and alluminium coins gave much better results. I also have decoupled the hanging lamp at the ceiling! I exchanged it for a flat plafoniere. Only because that original thing in the middle of the ceiling and in the midds of the soundstream just above the listening position gaves some strange echo effects, discouvered by accident, but afterwards quite logical. Lesson: experiment with changing object or with cheap ready available materials (your local stores for rebuilding houses gives many opportunities for next to nothing compared to the absurd pricing of the so called Hifi solutions).

The trick in my case is/was in my view to isolate/decouple unwanted resonances between 'hard materials' trough interuption by way of using different contact materials with totally different resonance caractaristics. From relative hard material into a strong metal point into relative soft but stable natural cork to hard material. The natural corc discs were made from those disc you use for isolating glases from moist vulnarable wood. Every household store or Ikea has them. Blue Tack (a kind of soft rubberisch material) is also a very interesting isolation material to break resonance paterns, an old trick by the way not invented by me.  May be you already have experimented at some places in you system with this kind of materials, if not I advise you to do it. I found the results great fun. More so because it is no voodoo, it is repeatable and demonstratable to the unknown.

I want also to comment on your remark about your little daugther. She is not 'poor' in my view. You give here a great role in the audio scene, I expect she loves it to play that role. I find it an interesting way to integrate education/paternal attention and looking for progress in an audio hobby. She learns at very early stage to enjoy music replay and sees what instrumentally is needed to arrange in the room to do it the right way. My own children has grown up with my audiohobby (also the deploying of some mad things!!) and get at a early stage familiar with the actions to arrange quality music in the living room. It has payed them dividend in their later lives, they both love good music replay without expiriencing much real concert (no funds for that at that time) and they were much ahead of their peers at school.

Pieter

Hi Mani and Severed,

Your mails makes some things more clear as a start for advise and helps me to bring some order in my own experiences of the past decades. It is a rather long story, but it is also a complex audio phenomenon. It is a strictly personal view, so there may be many other views and opinions to be found on the internet or within the xxhe group. So look with some relativity into the following text.

First a reaction with respect to the mail from Severed, but those personal views are also relevant for your own list of wishes when looking for a house, that needs to have a good structural basis for a dedicated audio room.

Indeed, a ribbon embedded within a dynamic speaker is another concept for making enjoyable music. The full range kind of ribbons I have heard (some Magnepans and Apogee) sound really good, but have a little different blend when compared to full range electrostats. All hybrid speakers with dynamic low and an electrostatic panel for low mid and higher I found not a compromise that is to my taste. Also full range esl in combination with one dynamic sub, never heard on with a sub par side.

By the way my musical taste is quite broad, but the most enjoyment I get from classical music/acoustical jazz and some good recorded pop (mostly live). Realistic sound levels I think should be referenced by experiences in real concerts. Sound levels in the home are in my view always compromised because a room can not exactly mirror a concert hall or a fully equipped recording facility. You can only strive to a musical quality sound level with such an impact at home that it creates some illusion of ‘real’ performances. Within that frame I think ESL can be used as an instrument (there are other ways to Rome, I know).

That instrumental quality is the reason I choose for a full range ESL in combination with a extra ESL subwoofer par side some 15 years ago (one full costly revision a couple of years ago, electrostats needs sometimes maintenance, open ESL also do not like smoke or other in house air pollution from candles or kitchen activities; Quads are as far as I know not fully open for attracting dust, so that is a pre with respect of usability and lifespan). Big ESL’s are quite an obstacle in the living room but for me still a good compromise, accepting all the compromises for positioning and listen position. My actual room is around 60 sqm. Although, all is relative, really good dynamic speakers are also rather big and needs space to ‘sing’, may be except corner horns like the great Klipsh Eckhorn (heard them once in a not so very good acoustics (too small a room) with  e.g.  some tracks from ‘Wish you were here’, very impressive).

At the beginning I used the big ESL’s on the ceiling of my formerly house in a dedicated audio/video room. Very impressive, but (as in most room situations) you have to accept a ‘hot seat’. ESL’s in my experience are rather directional, more than other concepts. Two way dynamic speakers had less problems with the acoustics of that ceiling with pointed roof, but delivered not the openness and transparency of the ESL and/or that ‘extra’ that gives me the illusion to be right in front of the performance and the performers (Listen to Jazz at the Pawnshop and you understand me). 

Severed: with respect to your wall treatments, as far a I understands them. I think in general you have to be very cautious with room treatment because in my experience sometimes you create or disclose just other problems while solving one problem in isolation. Nothing new for you I assume. In my dedicated room, in the end and after much experiments with different materials and techniques for diffraction and/or absorption with the goal of manipulation of direct/indirect reflections it was a revelation for me to dismantle most of them and start all over again. I treated the thick concrete floor with fixed soft under layer plus thicker carpet, made the roof construction more stiff with appropriate iron clamps and used a minimum of movable reflection panels just under the roof walls. I also decoupled the ESL panels more from the concrete floor. A ceiling with a pointed roof is acoustically not optimal, so I had to look for compromises.

The treatment also revealed for me that the system provoked in the ‘old’ situation quite some for me hidden resonances that obscured and troubled the sound field as a whole! In the end the goal was also not the ultimate perfection (whatever that is, but sometimes you have some vague and high ambitions……), but I was seeking for ‘the most enjoyable and musical mix’. Personally I found at that time a comfortable mix of attributes to make music, confirmed by others.

Also, the old story from experts has lead me to a successful mix: less is generally ‘more’, also with respect to manipulation of room acoustics. ‘Less’ here means ‘just enough’. So to preserve a good level of liveliness in the sound field I used only so much intervention in the front/back/side secondary reflections that there are no flutter echo’s anymore and there is a natural decay.

A useful instrument for me personally is to clap hard in your hands in the middle of the room and at the listening position. When the direct, indirect and decayed sound is well integrated/not irritating or aggressive and repeated claps sounds natural/undistorted to your ears you are moving in the right direction to tame some of the acoustic room problems in the musical most critical area’s (the lows are another chapter). After that I use some tracks with well known soprano aria’s (Callas/Madscenes, Schwartzkopf and Norman/Strauss) to check the acoustic balances. When those soprano’s (with all their expression, dynamics and power) sounds communicative without flutter echo’s, unnatural ss sounds and/or irritating sound levels you have another start point to go any further.

Listen also to some classical male voices and/or a male newsreader BBC to investigate the lower voice registers. All need to sound natural and not as if the men have a cold or sound nasal.

After that I use quality tracks from different Piano’s, Cello's, Organ, different Guitars (classic but also modern with metal string (try Michal Hedges). After that some more complex orchestral works and a capella choir. In the end, I try different very good recorded and for me well known tracks with jazz, popular songs, opera scenes and live rock. An important symptom for progress is my wish to listen to the whole performance. When I want to change too quickly from track, get bored or irritated there is a problem. The personal rationale behind this musical test strategy or diet is, that I use my own observation abilities and my own ears to come close to the preferred mix. It helps me also to stay away from listening to (short but impressive) sound bites. Also building up from rather simple to very complex is helping with problem determination and problem solving (sometimes simply accepting the actual quality level!). As a closing test I ask(-ed) my wife or children or friends to give their merciless unbiased view.

Well what is the point of telling this all, because it is only my personal experience with my musical favorites and sound producing context. Well I hope I have given you some insight in the process you have to go through after you have a room to start with and bring the ESL’s in the setup. This process is very time consuming and not always rewarding, not to say it has also its financial burden. So you must be rather motivated.

With respect choosing a dedicated audio room and your choice for one of the latest incarnations of a Quad ESL I want to kick in a open door first: look for a room not too little and not too big!

A little room will give you all kinds of acoustical problems and a very near field listing position with little possibilities for repositioning. All ESL’s in my view needs space around them to build up a good sound field (they use by principal front and back waves), too close to walls will likely prohibit a coherent spectrum of frequencies, resonances and reflections. ESL’s needs also quite careful positioning in the vertical and horizontal room panes (toeing in, with sometimes placement on a higher level (try a chair, it does wonders with the 57 model) or tilting of the back by which you change all the reflection angles a little). ESL’s needs in my view also enough room to deploy adequately the lower notes and to make use of the start, arrival and decay times of the back waves.

With a too big room you will have soon power problems, that’s the reason why the Quads comes with two models. Tests/reviews that I know of advises that moderate rooms (say around 40-50 sqm) are suitable and also you must not use ESL for high power presentations or disco like levels (the new Quads shut down when the output level is too high! That is not without reason, it is the border of their ability to move air without getting destructed).

When your definition of ‘realistic’ means that you want full acoustic deployment of dynamics beyond the 95-100db level, do not even think of ESL’s, no matter what kind of room. But when you are staying within adequate levels so they can produce a good musical portrait, they can deliver. Look also at 6moons site or the quad.uk site for some  additional review and advise (may be you have already done that). When your dedicated room is a little smaller you should absolutely look at the other model. I never heard it myself, but from some Dutch professional reviewers (with a preference for all kinds of classical music) the smaller one had better musical results with the smaller model than with the bigger one. The smaller one gives a more coherent sound field they say and is less prone to overpowering a room in the lows. It also comes closer to ‘less is more’. But the proof is in the pudding.

In the end I strongly advise you to look for a quality retailer that gives you the chance to try them out in your own dedicated room. Quads are like other ESL’s quite pricy instruments, so a home trial belongs to the customer service in my view.

When I was in your position I would look for a room of around 45 sqm with unequal seizes. That last thing is a general rule, not only for ESL. A (nearly) square room or pne that is too narrow but long gives all kinds of unwanted resonances, especially in the (mid-)lows and lower bass.

You should also look for a room where the short side wall are more or less symmetrical (for the processing of the back waves and the left/right balance so that staging not becomes a problem), the long side walls are not too different qua acoustic attributes (e.g. not a very absorbent wall at the left and an all glass or concrete wall at the right without any curtains, the ceiling/floor should have also some different material.  The last can with a carpet on a rather stiff floor or with a wooden floor with some loose carpet(-s). The last solution gives you some flexibility in manipulation of reflections while preserving the liveliness of the room. Put some furniture in the room, not too much, start with experiments with some wall ornaments or curtains (all (re-)movable, only a small lamp at the ceiling (I learned my lesson). When you have a loose parketfloor, you have to fully decouple the ESl's, otherwise you create a situation where your whole floor acts like a resonant pannel! You need little imagination to point to the audible consequences.

Avoid a room with a ceiling that has only a function to hide the real ceiling because that kind of ceilings (with their empty caves) give very weird and unwanted acoustical results, the same is the case with very thin and acoustical nearly transparent sidewalls, some frequencies will simply pass trough and will not be reflected in a desired way (you will have only some kind of music in the other room!).

Your listening chair should be easily moved on the ax in the middle of the room, function is just to find out what the most preferable distance is relative to the position of speakers and front/back walls. From this rather basic start point you can start with your audio journey.

Prepare the room temporarily with a simple two way speaker on stands used in the rig that is buildup with a very good source, no DSP at all, no power line measures/tweaks for the moment, normal adequate IC/speaker cable (preferable as short as convenient). Start to use the Pass Labs, ESL’s loves Class A amps with good power supplies and stable voltage management. When those amps are electronically OK than I expect that they are a very good starting point. You can win more in my view at the side of the source/preamp and inroom/position manipulation/tweaking than with another high end amp is my humble expectation. This preparation is necessary because otherwise you listen to the Quads in a very sub optimal situation to begin with.

When this start combination functions at their top let than the Quads come in. Try both models out in the same electronic and room setup, so you can compare the initial results and explore your taste with respect to the performance of the Quads in real audio circumstances (a storeroom is the least situation to determine the qualities of speakers in my view, you simply can not project that in store behavior to how they will perform in your own dedicated room).

May be you should also give the Quad setup a try out in your living room, just as reference, it gives you also some feedback around the results in the dedicated room. When you have the Quads for several days on trial place them for a start at minimal 1 m from the back and 1,5 m from the side, toe them in a little. From there start your own track choices. After you have familiarized with this setup start with fine tuning. All ESL’s, the Quads also, are vulnerable to placement in the room (in my experience more than dynamic based multi systems). A little experiment can do wonders, take your time and you will be rewarded. The fine tuning can at best be executed with someone who can helps you so that one person can stay in the listening position while the other moves the speakers or some objects that can influence the mix of reflections and resonances. Mostly a couple of cm back or forth, a little less or more space between the speakers, some more toe in or some replacing of wall treatment is enough to get everything at its place. 

Oh, one last remark with respect to your dedicated audio room. When a suitable seized dedicated room is too ambitious I strongly advise you to explore the possibility to integrate an ESL based setup in your living room (and use a high quality dynamic based two way system in your smaller dedicated room, those systems  are more simply to integrate and a little more forgiving in my view in that room situation).

With respect to ‘something that can match my Stax headphones’: well this is a difficult one, because headphone listening is principally something else because you cutt off all acoustic influences and problems of a room radically and you listen from a totally other much more closed in perspective to a recording, also much less forgiving for little shortcomings in system synergy. In fact you listen with some kind of a magnifier very directly into the captured sounds on the recording. I see the differences as two totally different ways to explore and enjoy music, each with their pro’s and con’s. When I try out a headphone/amp/source combination I use the same reference cd’s as with an in room system. Mostly I want the same kind of involvement with both ways of playing around. So a piano must sound with both instrumental concepts ‘live like’ and ‘involving’, both ways have to tell me the musical story in a way that I can create a temporarily believable musical illusion of ‘being there’.

For me this storytelling was a good time investment in ordering some processes and expiriences. I hope it will helps you in your decision making and steps in your audio journey.

When you still have questions I will try to answer them from my personal standpoint and lessons learned from some experience due to all the pitfalls in constructing my own home audio setup. I hope XXHE will soon contribute another chapter to my own journey.

Pieter.

 
For more reference information look at:
6moons (practical review of the 2905 model)
Quad.uk
Diyaudio, section ESL
Linkwitz Audio (roomacoustics)
Pass DIY (several articles that attacks some audio myths)

Hi,

Interesting question. In my view the answers depends fully on which kind of musical portrayal you want to come 'alive' in your room(-acoustics), by the way, this is also the case with other mechanical instruments that moves air for the sake of musicmaking in a living room. As a more than 30 year user of electrostatics (Quad 57 and/or big and tall Audiostatics) I can compare those with 'normal' speakers (2,3,4 way with passive cross-overs). In my view it all comes down to listening habits or needs, room for placement (away from walls!), possibilities of some room treatment or rearranging objects, your 'normal' listeningposition and last but nog least the way in which your family members cooperate with your personal 'hobby goals'. Before giving any advise I want to ask you to tell some more with respect to your music choice, listening habits (e.g. very loud, 'realistic' or easy listening), room and/or acoustic surroundings. Electrostats are quite demanding in that respect and have some restrictions, but when you can manipulate your acoustic surroundings and speaker/listener position they can deliver a very good and involving musical performance. But Single Driver and/or Open baffle speakers can do that also (those are also very simple ways of moving air, but they also have some room requirements and drawbacks).  May be your Wilsons are already a quite good compromise. First requirement would be in my view is to try the Quads out in your own home, this is based on a quote from Peter Walker (the disigner of the early Quads): (refrased by me): it is the room that speaks to you.....

pieter.

Well, I report here for the first time, so I hope I am at the right thread with the right topic.

I have followed your site for quite some time. It is very interesting because I am very intersted in good music retreival from cd (for this moment red book 16bit only).

Reading all the comments on clicks, pops, cracks, glitches etc (in Dutch gekraak, onderbrekingen, etc).

I personally am a totalally inexpierenced person within the technal context of computer audio, only I want to have a good audio expierence with a pc and headphone dac/amp. Simple as that, but it is not so simple! At this moment I did not try your audio engine, much because I want first that other engines work at their promises within the context of Vista. After that your engine can show its bennefits to me.

At the moment my WindowsAudioPlayer and/or Foobar2000 have all the clicks and hickups or glitches etc that are described here with respect to XX. So I think the hickups, clicks, glitches, interuptions etc are not related to one specific audio engine!

Not wanted interuptions in the audio stream are reported in respect to using XXhighend, but I expierence the same sort of interuptions with the other audio engines! My setup is HP9630ed/2gb RAM/usb out/usb in Corda Aria Headphone amp/Ergo2 Headphone. Without the reported artifacts a great soundmachine for a critical listener I can asure you. Within the context of  XP Pro the USB out/Corda/Headphone never/never gave any audio problem!!!

I hear those 'glitches' in this setup (USB out), but also in the direct headphone out. Foobar or WMP makes also no difference. All glitches, hickups or other interuptions in the audio stream are at random, I never have been able to rehearse a symptom in the same setup or plase on a cd audiostream. There is no system in the symptoms. Only I have observed that changing or adding a application gives some extra hickups. For example, adding mail or internet to using audio gives a extra puch to the same symptoms. When not changing or adding other applications there is less interruption (so interacting of using more than one application at the same time withing the context of using Vista gives problems). I am waiting for Service pack I in the Dutch language for an update, but I am not sure it will help al lot.

When I looked into a article in the Guardian about Vista Audio (Jan.2008) I get a little dissapointed, but also more informed! Look for yourself at the internet, the article is published fully. The people at MS themselves disapproved the audio results of their own Vista! Look also when you google with : vista audio glitches, hickups, cratches, audio problems etc. You get hundreds of hits! In the sfere of Proffessional Audio you can get even more comments on the audio applicability of Vista. No one in that proffessional area is going to use that OS at this moment! It will become a economical disastre for them.

The point I want to make is: is it possible that you all are trying to solve a problem that is not solvable by you alone because the Vista OS context within your are trying to solve it, is at this time principally not functioning correctly for audio at the first place (that is for correct audio retreival and audio datastream) and your are not able to correct it because you can not alter the OS itself.

Let me be quite clear: I have great believe in the XXhighend engine at itself although I have not listen with it at this moment. I only think that there is a possibility that you are looking for problems and solutions in the wrong place. Possibly XXHighend is not the problem, but vista and its surroundings are the real problem.
I hope you find the solutions, so all audio engines will function correct and the XXHighend will be really the best.

Pieter.