Experiments with Orelo Mk II?

[briefremarks]

Over the years we've seen many enhancements and upgrades to the XXHE PC (Mach II, Mach III), the NOS1 (B75, G3), cables (Lush, Blaxius, ET, XLR), and so on.  I haven't seen much regarding the Orelo MK II speakers.  Wondering if there are some avenues to try to make these sound even better. 

[PeterSt]

Hi Ramesh - good question.

Let me first say that relatively infinite design went into them, just because mechanical upgrade is, well, expensive. It's no NOS1 everybody shipped 5 or so times (and we back to you). Thus, we took measures in advance of desire for upgrade.

Sounds like BS, right ?
Yea, but I was there myself for - how long ? first one year for the Orphean filtering, next I think two years for the system as a whole, with as intermittent the Orelino (which Paul has).
Anyway, you can see it on the (crazy) possibilities of the electronics (mainly the input possibilities which you happily use yourself).

But

One of the more squeezing features is the DSP (including its unreliability as we know by now for already a long time). So what certainly is possible is replace the internal DSP with MiniDSP (there may be more). So that's 192KHz ADC rate - maybe more exists by now ? Or, some crazy thing I think of writing this ... what about the RME DAC /ADC (768 !) whith PEQ's via an app ?
One thing : this now has to be external. And would you care ?
I would not.

Again but :

But do I need it ? let's say that what one does not know, one does not need (this is a but of Dutch). So I myself never went that path.
It would require the experience with replacing a broken Hypex DSP in order to relatively easy figure out how to connect a new DSP, which always be external (just because it won't fit inside).
And then you'd have a plethora of new SQ options. Including DSP-control the mid and high.

This post (or yours) would be a first step out of many more and possibly also many $ more. But take it from me that really good options exist to replace all that resistors, coils and capacitors plus wires, with digital means. And this counts 100% positive when the ADC could be 786 - btw, I have one (RME ADI-2) which I only unboxed 2 months ago, after having it 2-3 years already. But mind you, that PEQ etc. app is only also 2 months new.

Regards and thanks you for the subject,
Peter

[briefremarks]

Thanks Peter,

I'm up for trying and experimenting.  One help would be a good and accurate signal path diagram of what happens inside the Orelo from inputs to drivers.  I have notes from previous conversations, but if a diagram could be shared without disclosing any proprietary information, it would help to figure out options.  With the Linkwitz LX521s I still have, the crossovers and amps are external, which allows things to be upgraded including the drivers.

I know this will be a large project, and certainly should not be something that drains your time.  I have not tried to "open" the back or the nose of the Orelo to see what is going on inside, but maybe this could be done carefully.

Ramesh

[briefremarks]

I found the previous thread on this.  Linking it here again.

http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=4246.msg44707#msg44707

[briefremarks]

Peter,

Is the Pro version of the RME that you have?  I'm thinking of possibly getting one and experimenting.  The Linkwitz DSP people are using the minidsp Flex 8, which I think is quite limited.

Ramesh

[PeterSt]

Yes, I have the Pro version.

The subject already reminded me of the allowed usage, which would be not using it for mid/high. So only the replacement of the Hypex would be allowed, hence for Bass only.

A schematic would be useless. Even telling in advance / in theory what to do is quite impossible. Taking out the Hypex would lead to something but it still would be a tedious job.

Something else is that I did not sort out the possibilities of the RME and if it can't bear 10 or so PEQs then it will be useless.
Also, for Bass only, MiniDSP would be sufficient IMO.

[PeterSt]

So only the replacement of the Hypex would be allowed, hence for Bass only.

I forgot to add this :

This is because you would fully eliminate your D/A converter of choice. Thus, the path would then be :

DAC -> MiniDSP-ADC -> DSP -> MiniDSP-DAC.

Peter

[briefremarks]

Quick update.

I spent some time over the last days working on the placement of the Orelos.  The sound after some adjustments is definitely better.  Biggest improvement came from reducing toe-in, and moving the speakers a little forward (more distance from front wall).  Also by accident or good luck, I seem to have found a spot where the sound stage really has become 3D. 

- Speakers are 116" apart
- I listen on a sofa 132" away, and also from further back
- The back wall is quite a distance away (300" or more)
- Placement is asymmetric, because the L speaker is a the intersection of the living room and dining room, so no side wall nearby.  R speaker is very close to sidewall.

Sound is so good that my interest in experimentation is much is reduced.   

[Chad]

First time poster here. Hi all!

I have owned Orphean horns for years. During this time I have tried several bass setups. Best of these is Sigma (made by Bert)  and second is  my diy Orelino with three 12" Beyma drivers.

If you have a perfect room you can skip the rest of my message...

My advice for those who struggle with the sound quality is to move the speakers away as much as possible from the walls. And start to listen at close range.  And I mean close. When I realized that only then I started to hear the speaker and not the room. You'll know when you got it close enough, trust me.

From the speakers I have 1, 5 m to side walls and about 2 meters to the front wall (the wall behind the speakers).

Also the room in my experience is better to treat with diffusers. Maybe with bass traps for the problem frequencies.

At Bert's place the listening distance to the speakers was longer and somehow there the room did not affect the sound. So I am not saying that close distance listening the best choice for every room.

Just my 2 cents.

Regards, C

[briefremarks]

Chad,

I've had this experience with other speakers, specifically the LX521 that needed a fair amount of distance from the front and side wall.  This has never been my experience with the Orelo.  What I like about them is that you can position them relatively close to the front and side walls--I think I was just too close.  I'm also trying to optimize for listening from multiple positions.  I've listened close and far back.  Different experiences.  The Orelo works well in both cases once the toe-in is set properly.  Too much toe-in was a problem I had.

[PeterSt]

Hi there Chad - nice to run into your post.

The original Orelino has been developed by me for it's filter part as a derivative from what Bert did beforehand, and the DSP for the 12"ers in there was done from the ground by me.
I think you have neither crucial part.

... and this is only a small "crucial part" ...

The funniest part is that I personally have one real measure : observe standing waves in the room (read : when they are there a. it is not the very best and b. you will hear the room). Now the thing is : we (Phasure and its community) always hunted for the very best sound and we used all the elements for that in the audio chain. PC, PC Audio Playback software, D/A converter, Power Amps (actively present in the Orelo), USB Cable to the D/A converter, Interlinks. So where we indeed produce each of mentioned elements (with the notice we are crazy, and Bert actually builds the speakers - but he is crazy just the same for these massive projects) - it always comes down to nothing leaving any building when the slightest standing wave can be detected in the slightest (or largest) corner.
Only when the room has explicit wrong dimensions, things may not work out, although with the DSP you may achieve some things after all.

The moral : so many things can be wrong while they should be good, that the in the basis not-distorting open baffle you have at hand, may let go wrong everything when other elements are "not right".

Ramesh (briefremarks) and so many others can testify the truth in this, as - for example - nobody came over and listen to these speakers in advance. Same for the Audio PC. Same for the software (obviously). Also same for the cables. Maybe not the same for the DAC (apparently this is special to people), but all the stuff just builds on the "matching" which by far most people learned from the software (say back in 2008).

And no, I am most explicitly not trying to sell you anything - not even the software - so it is only about the message : work on your other elements and you will have a more than superb speaker. But assumed you have the same power amps as Bert could have provided them and the DSP in there which should do the same job as the Hypex we use in the Orelo, with settings you could have obtained from Bert.

That's all !
Kind regards,
Peter


PS: It may not be commonly known that the Orelo lends itself perfectly for having them 6 maters apart (my situation) and listen to them at 3-4 meters distance. So Yes, this is part of your story.
In the mean time my normal listening distance is 9-10 meters (toeing unchanged).

[Chad]

Thanks Peter, interesting as always.

I am not going waste anyone's time talking about my diy Orelino since it it has nothing to do with the real Orelino. What you said is true, I did not achieve the sound what I wanted by going diy. It is too much of a compromise. The baffle resonances, filters, all of it. That is why got the Sigmas when I got the chance. I never got the filter right by my self so I really understand your point.

Before my next statement I want to say that my system is not perfect. It does not have the magic highs like Acapella ion tweeter has. It does not image 3d like some smaller speakers do. The sound does not have the coherence like good full range drivers have etc.

But it does represent music realistically in my opinion. The reason I listen so close to the speaker is because only then I get to peek into the recording, only then I really feel the music, see the performer in front of me. In my room only then i get the feeling and the sound what I need to get satisfaction out of hifi system - it is funny since once a hifi retailer in my country told me it is impossible to achieve the sound I am searching for when he asked what I want.

I have not heard Orelo or original Orelino (I would very much like to) but I am sure they do music very very well. To my knowledge there are not Orelo or Orelino owners in my country Finland.

[PeterSt]

Hi again Chad,

Closest would be Norway (Bergen IIRC).

But are you saying you own the Sigma ? ... that would be very special.
And if I got it right that you think they can perform better, then I might agree (I was there when they were build). How to solve that is another matter.

?

Peter

[Chad]

Hi Peter. Yes, I own Sigma speakers. They replaced my diy Orelinos. As an amp I use Bert's gain clone amplifier which seems to be very good match. God knows how many amps I've tested during the years...

Since I have not heard original Orelinos or Orelo i cannot say anything about which is "better". They must have their differences since the bass section is different between the models. Edit: Also Orelo and Orelino have active horn section if i am not mistaken.