XXHighEnd

Ultimate Audio Playback => Your thoughts about the Sound Quality => Topic started by: manisandher on August 15, 2012, 05:14:37 pm



Title: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: manisandher on August 15, 2012, 05:14:37 pm
I didn't want to share my thoughts on PA until I had 0.9z-7 installed in my main system (in sig), and I wasn't going to do this with the beta release. But I've now installed the official release in my main system.

I thought I had one of the most 'musical' systems I'd ever heard - the Sauermann amps are special, the Quad speakers are legendary and the NOS1... well this is probably the most accurate DAC in the world. BUT Peter is right - even with these components, I now know I've been listening to distortion all this time. This was obvious the first second I listened to PA. I don't wear contact lenses or spectacles but I can imagine PA is like putting a pair on when you have bad eye sight but didn't even know about it. It's a revelation.

Congratulations Peter, and thank you so, so much. I second your Nobel Prize.

(Incidentally, I measured the DC offset at my speaker terminals without/with PA. The offset is around 12mV on each channel without. When PA is engaged, this jumps momentarily to ~150mV (accompanied by a small tick through the speakers) and then falls back down to ~12mV once music starts coming out of the speakers.)

Mani.


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: boleary on August 15, 2012, 05:54:34 pm
Hey Mani, did you try SFS @ 2 and PA Strength at 1? This sent the SQ here even further into the stratosphere. In fact, I think that changing SFS to anything other than 2 degrades the sound--perhaps the SFS issue is now a non issue!


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: manisandher on August 15, 2012, 06:19:51 pm
Hmm... will take a good listen to it later this evening.

Mani.


Title: Too much DC...
Post by: BertD on August 15, 2012, 07:48:21 pm
Hmm... will take a good listen to it later this evening.

I just checked with my amps (without DC-protection) and it is scary what I see at the output terminals.

Just one click set for the phase alignment and already I see peaks appearing of 2V at the speaker terminals with less than 180mV or so at the input.

My speakers are DC-protected (passive crossover) and so is my active crossover for the bass so no harm can be done there but I am sure that this DC component will saturate the amps pretty quickly.

I will need to get a capacitor first to block DC before I am going to test further...

Bert


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: manisandher on August 15, 2012, 08:29:21 pm
Bert, on my main system (Sauermann amps) I'm measuring ~15mV at the speaker terminals without PA. With PA it goes to ~150mV, but only momentarily, before going back down to ~15mV once the music starts.

When you talk about 180mV, surely this isn't at the output of the NOS1?

I'm asssuming my gainclones would have identical DC offsets to yours, no? So no PA with these until you get them 'upgraded', right?

Mani.


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: Scroobius on August 15, 2012, 08:46:51 pm
Bert - I was seeing 11 volts output on my amps at -22db volume in XX  - I am waiting for my DC blocking capacitors to arrive and hoping that they do not affect sound quality too much so that I can enjoy the benefits of PA.

Paul


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: BertD on August 15, 2012, 09:05:38 pm
When you talk about 180mV, surely this isn't at the output of the NOS1?

Yes, the output of the NOS1 (you can see that on the internal meters...). But I have noticed also way above the limit they measure...meaning more than 1V!?

Is that good for the DAC's output stage?

What would do that at the output of the amps... brrrr.

In the meantime I have installed the capacitors though and will let them burn in for a while and continue from there.

Quote
I'm asssuming my gainclones would have identical DC offsets to yours, no? So no PA with these until you get them 'upgraded', right?

Yep, same thing but no need for an "upgrade". Just add a capacitor in series with the input and DC will be blocked.

You'll need minimal 15uF though and for a high grade one this will cost some and might not even fit inside! But you can use a good quality 15uF and 1u5 by-pass with real good quality.

Bert


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: BertD on August 15, 2012, 09:09:40 pm
Bert - I was seeing 11 volts output on my amps at -22db volume in XX  - I am waiting for my DC blocking capacitors to arrive and hoping that they do not affect sound quality too much so that I can enjoy the benefits of PA.

That IS a lot... I did not check my volume settings with the readings but I will have to play on any volume so it should be safe always.

Bert


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: manisandher on August 15, 2012, 09:12:22 pm
When you talk about 180mV, surely this isn't at the output of the NOS1?

Yes, the output of the NOS1 (you can see that on the internal meters...). But I have noticed also way above the limit they measure...meaning more than 1V!?

Is that good for the DAC's output stage?

Hey Bert, this is way too high. My two NOS1s read between 0.5mV and 7mV on their respective channels.

???

Mani.


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: BertD on August 15, 2012, 09:13:38 pm
Hey Mani, did you try SFS @ 2 and PA Strength at 1?

I did try SFS @ 2 and that did not work. The player complaint with an error telling me that the figure 2 is too small for unattended playback...

Bert


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: BertD on August 15, 2012, 09:17:13 pm
Hey Bert, this is way too high. My two NOS1s read between 0.5mV and 7mV on their respective channels.

Tell me about it! I am sure it is related to the volume setting but perhaps also because of the DC blocker? Now the DAC can't have its DC floating anymore...

Although, I also have seen tracks play with 150mV NOS1 output) without changing the volume. Perhaps Volume Normalisation is playing tricks here...

Time will tell.

Bert


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: BertD on August 15, 2012, 09:19:31 pm
Hey Bert, this is way too high. My two NOS1s read between 0.5mV and 7mV on their respective channels.

Are you sure that you actually have engaged Phase Alignment? You need to do this in the settings menu and then choose strength or +/- on the player itself.

Bert


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: boleary on August 15, 2012, 09:29:07 pm
Hey Mani, did you try SFS @ 2 and PA Strength at 1?

I did try SFS @ 2 and that did not work. The player complaint with an error telling me that the figure 2 is too small for unattended playback...

Bert

Maybe you need to set Q1 to fourteen. See below from this note from Peter: http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2093.msg21474#msg21474

Addendum :
A month or so after this was written originally, it was found that a very low Split File Size (SFS) solves about all of the theoretical problems we can run into. So, an SFS of 2 allows for a Device Buffer Size of 4096, a Q1 of 14 and a Q1Factor of 1, which gives the net result of a fairly short buffer size while Phase Alignment works beautifully; in this setting the repeat of the last buffer (by sort of mechanical organization) is very short but also very long in frequence. For net result it will even be difficult to detect it (think like 50ms worth of audio repeating 10 times now).
This is important, because it will allow everybody to use it, while at first it was thought that only the "huge buffer sizes" would allow for it, that sure not being able to dial in for all DACs.

And:

Addendum :
Referring to beforementioned SFS setting of 2 which works "the best", it has been found also that applying a Strength of 1 sure can improve. Again it is difficult, because it first required the general nature of sound (or quality of it) "depicted" by the SFS=2 setting before it started to work out. So, despite the warnings above, an SFS of 2 with further settings as described under the earlier Addendum, seems quite safe in order to try a Strength of 1. Sadly, again later it was found that with this Strength of 1 and an SFS of 60, sound seems to get as analogue as can be, hence totally different and seemlingly way better again. Sadly, because with the further settings the same, you won't be free of small ticks at stopping or Volume Change etc. Still harmless, but not free of anomalies (which SFS = 2 seems to provide).



Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: boleary on August 15, 2012, 09:33:41 pm
One more thought, my last post was to be understood in the context of using PA; if you are not then I'm not sure of the benifit of the smaller SFS.


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: manisandher on August 15, 2012, 09:42:12 pm
Are you sure that you actually have engaged Phase Alignment?

Yes, PA definitely engaged. But I was just being an idiot - I quoted the DC offset at idle, and not when playing music. With PA engaged, the meters go off scale when music is playing.

On a side note: Bert, my Quads have transformers at their inputs, so aren't bothered by the amp's DC output. Would the gainclones care if they outputted >1V DC? I mean, in my case, with my Quads, do I really need an input capacitor on my amps?

Mani.


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: BertD on August 15, 2012, 09:44:47 pm
Maybe you need to set Q1 to fourteen. See below from this note from Peter: http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2093.msg21474#msg21474

Yep, that did the trick. Thanks... ;)

Quote
Addendum : A month or so after this was written originally

Too much is written for my little brain to follow  :( and remember, I am a novice regarding this XX version.

Bert


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: BertD on August 15, 2012, 09:48:37 pm
Yes, PA definitely engaged. But I was just being an idiot - I quoted the DC offset at idle, and not when playing music. With PA engaged, the meters go off scale when music is playing.

That explains...  :)

Quote
On a side note: Bert, my Quads have transformers at their inputs, so aren't bothered by the amp's DC output. Would the gainclones care if they outputted >1V DC? I mean, in my case, with my Quads, do I really need an input capacitor on my amps?

Your transformers will be more or less saturated by the DC component. Its either a capacitor in front of the transformers (think 1F or so) or in front of the amp.

I am sure the amp likes to be free from such values of DC also...

Bert


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: Scroobius on August 15, 2012, 11:02:14 pm
Bert & Mani - I have been measuring the temperature of my LM3875 chips and although I have not made enough checks yet to be sure it appears that an offset difference of around 40-60mv (measured at the speaker terminals) gives a very significant 2-3 deg C difference in temperature as measured on a common heat sink. This is the offset caused by the 2-5mv offset generated by NOS1 at the input to the amp. I have more measurements to make but from my experiences to date a big offset into my GainClone amps (that have no capacitors in the signal path) is probably a very bad thing.

Decoupling caps at the input to the amp are the only way forward for me I do not see with my setup that DC blocking at the speakers will work. But I do have more tests to do so this is only a preliminary view.

Paul


Title: Multimeter (was Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!)
Post by: Jud on August 15, 2012, 11:32:00 pm
Well, sadly I won't have the chance to experience Phase Alignment on the main system downstairs with the Spectral Amp that certainly passes DC (point of pride for them, really) that I'm not going to change.  But with my humble upstairs system (better computer there anyway) I would like to attempt it.  First I need a multimeter, and searching Radio Shack's inventory online doesn't turn up a lot immediately.  Anyone have a suggestion for a not terribly expensive unit available in the USA that would fit the bill?

Thanks.

Edit: Think I've found one at Sears.  What fun, the chance to play with something that will either give me fabulous sound or ruin my amp and speakers.


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: listening on August 15, 2012, 11:33:14 pm
Hey Mani, did you try SFS @ 2 and PA Strength at 1? This sent the SQ here even further into the stratosphere. In fact, I think that changing SFS to anything other than 2 degrades the sound--perhaps the SFS issue is now a non issue!

Hi Brian,

did not explore this side of XXHIghend before - that was a big mistake! First I thought it sounds like a studio monitor but that's not correct. It sounds like a headphone with 3D image! Very, very detailed and exquisite.

Georg


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: boleary on August 15, 2012, 11:41:28 pm
 
Quote
It sounds like a headphone with 3D image! Very, very detailed and exquisite.

Hey Georg, this description of yours is perfect. I'd only add that somehow the music becomes more "real" or alive sounding. When I turn PA off everything suddenly sounds flat in comparison.


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: christoffe on August 16, 2012, 08:04:34 am
Hi Peter,

In my opinion Phasure shall come up with a technical solution (a small unit with capacitors) to avoid an overhead of DC in front of the amps.

Everybody should benefit from the new mode "Phase Alignment".

The DC offset on my amp is limited to <50mV (with another setting < 590mV) and the values measured by listeners on their system is much to high for mine.
(Quote - note by BertD  - already I see peaks appearing of 2V - Unquote)

Best

Joachim

P.S. I order one unit straight, because I'm a "Super Electrician" with 10 thumbs.


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: manisandher on August 16, 2012, 09:39:53 am
It sounds like a headphone with 3D image! Very, very detailed and exquisite.

… somehow the music becomes more "real" or alive sounding. When I turn PA off everything suddenly sounds flat in comparison.

I agree with these observations - I call it the 'holographic effect'. But I also think that PA can sound a little too 'fresh' (on my system at least). With Q1=30, I've increased xQ1 from 1 to 5 and this seems to have brought the tonal balance back from slightly bright to neutral. I've lost some of the holographic effect of PA as a result, but it's not totally gone.

I tried SFS=2 (and 60) and phase_strength=1 (with Q1=14 and xQ1=1) but again just too fresh on my system. So my settings currently stand at:

- device buffer = 4096
- SFS = 430 (straight contiguous)
- Q1 = 30
- xQ1 = 5
- phase strength = 0

On my 'Le Monster' PC, I'm getting zero glitches, dropouts or stops. And apart from having to wait a few seconds for XX to react (due to the massive latency), everything works nicely.

Mani.


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: manisandher on August 16, 2012, 10:15:20 am
I tried SFS=2 (and 60) and phase_strength=1 (with Q1=14 and xQ1=1) but again just too fresh on my system.

I'm currently listening to my office system and these settings sound very, very good, and not "too fresh" at all! With SFS=60, the sound is indeed very 'analogue', just as Peter describes in his PA tutotial.

But I have to say for those who haven't managed to get PA to work yet, even without it, 0.9z-7 sounds great. I could easily live with SFS=280 and Q1=30 in this system without PA.

Mani.


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: PeterSt on August 16, 2012, 10:26:22 am
Joachim and all,

I appreciate all your efforts of measuring and putting up the results, but I don't think this is of much real use. So, the one puts up this, the other measures that, but the only thing which may come from it is that people may read 'less danger' while for themselves the danger is there just the same. Thus, it is not allowed to listen to others; instead you must measure and check yourself and decide ONLY based on that. Therefore putting up results here challenges for mistakes at others. And these mistakes can be expensive ...

Peter


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: manisandher on August 16, 2012, 10:59:40 am
Hey Mani, did you try SFS @ 2 and PA Strength at 1? This sent the SQ here even further into the stratosphere.

Ha, I should just check what you and Peter have settled on and follow it! I now have SFS=2 and PA_strength=1 on both my systems. Last night it sounded too 'fresh', today it sounds wonderful. Maybe I need to clean my ears  :dntknw:

Mani.


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: phantomax on August 16, 2012, 11:41:55 am
Joachim and all,

I appreciate all your efforts of measuring and putting up the results, but I don't think this is of much real use. So, the one puts up this, the other measures that, but the only thing which may come from it is that people may read 'less danger' while for themselves the danger is there just the same. Thus, it is not allowed to listen to others; instead you must measure and check yourself and decide ONLY based on that. Therefore putting up results here challenges for mistakes at others. And these mistakes can be expensive ...

Peter

Be careful with excursions :stop:. I went yesterday too far searching for a combination in order to avoid those plops and I was totally frightened when I got a loud noise and suddenly failed the sound from the left speaker.
Fortunately all returned to normal operation after a while. :scare:
The amplifier protection circuitry had come into operation :o :heat:
Said that sure I'm going to fall into the same reckless mistake  :smack:


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: manisandher on August 17, 2012, 12:00:56 pm
I'm really in two minds as to whether I want to post this... but I will anyway.

I was looking after my 7-month old son this morning, whilst my wife, Satty, was out doing something interesting (I'm sure) and my other 2.5-year old was at nursery.

Like many of you here, I'm fond of all sorts of music, from Beethoven to Bollywood (my Indian heritage helps with the latter) and this morning felt in the mood for some 'early music'. I loaded 'All' Improviviso - L'Arpeggiata' and just sat with my son listening all the way through. Something happens when I listen to beautiful music - I don't know, something awakens/stirs deep inside. But this usually only happens when I'm listening to music live. But this morning it happened, and it brought a tear to my eye. I don't know about you, but for me, although I'm not a musician, music is such an important part of my life. When I don't have access to 'beautiful' music, there is a void in my life, and I think this sits at a very deep subconscious level. I look around me, and all I have in life, but it doesn't feel totally complete. So, like many of you, I spend hours/days/months striving to fill the void. But this morning, with this beautiful music filling the room and one of my gorgeous boys sitting on my lap listening with me, life just felt so full... and I was totally grateful for what I have...

... including stumbling upon the Phasure website, I guess >4 years ago now.

Mani.


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: Gerard on August 17, 2012, 12:33:08 pm
Indeed WOW what a sound.

Only so many ticks in between which are to hard to play much longer. They scare me.  :(

Time for a new pc i guess.

But indeed what a clear pue sound.

 :)



Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: boleary on August 17, 2012, 01:02:03 pm
I was going to put this in a new thread but after reading Mani's last post it just feels right here. Want to hear cymbals? Give the introductory part of "Heart of the Sunrise", track 10, from Yes's Fragile album a listen. Did this last night and the cymbals sounded so real, not like a live recording, but like live music. I've listened to this track hundreds of times and never before did those cymbals send shivers up my spine.

There is something about PA with a SFS of 2 that has put the music in my room into another league. Everything has become more "Musical" on an emotional, "this is why we listen to music" level. But I digress here cause Mani, in his last post, said it best.


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: Gerard on August 17, 2012, 01:02:18 pm
I'm really in two minds as to whether I want to post this... but I will anyway.

I was looking after my 7-month old son this morning, whilst my wife, Satty, was out doing something interesting (I'm sure) and my other 2.5-year old was at nursery.

Like many of you here, I'm fond of all sorts of music, from Beethoven to Bollywood (my Indian heritage helps with the latter) and this morning felt in the mood for some 'early music'. I loaded 'All' Improviviso - L'Arpeggiata' and just sat with my son listening all the way through. Something happens when I listen to beautiful music - I don't know, something awakens/stirs deep inside. But this usually only happens when I'm listening to music live. But this morning it happened, and it brought a tear to my eye. I don't know about you, but for me, although I'm not a musician, music is such an important part of my life. When I don't have access to 'beautiful' music, there is a void in my life, and I think this sits at a very deep subconscious level. I look around me, and all I have in life, but it doesn't feel totally complete. So, like many of you, I spend hours/days/months striving to fill the void. But this morning, with this beautiful music filling the room and one of my gorgeous boys sitting on my lap listening with me, life just felt so full... and I was totally grateful for what I have...

... including stumbling upon the Phasure website, I guess >4 years ago now.

Mani.
Nice story!  :)


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: PeterSt on August 17, 2012, 02:15:15 pm
Mani, that read like a suspense (not sure American will understand the word). But I think a thriller is about  the same ?

It is difficult to put music into words, but you just did so beautifully !

I guess it is a women saying to 'feel complete'. But I just read that in you Shakespeare ...






Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: phantomax on August 22, 2012, 03:56:21 pm
Hi you all,
I've spent the last few days trying different settings and once I've found the more suitable for me and despite the problems associated with a small device buffer and a lack of gain in my system, the only thing I can say is...WOW.
When Peter started to talk about the new version I placed the silliest post I have ever writen: I said " :drool:
Well, my expectations have more than fulfilled. Although my finances are a little bit struggled rigth now, this is the best investment in HiFi I've ever did.

At this moment I fell the necessity of take a break of A-B tests, wife tests (how patient she is), blind tests, etc. All of them with little pieces of well known music. Now it's time to a different behaviour and listen to new musics and/or rediscover the old ones but enjoying again the  whole piece of work: a symphony, an opera, a jazz/rock recording, whatever it is ( it doesn't matter I am omnivorous).
So thank you, Peter and thank you all with your contributions to the forum. I wish I can return the favor sometime.

Maxi


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: arvind on August 23, 2012, 09:13:32 am
Hi Peter,

Yesterday I activated PA & i must say that the SQ across the spectrum is fantastic...I have heard nothing like this before. You are a genius & hats of to you for creating this feature.

From what little I could understand this feature applies a DC Offset so that the LSB shifts from zero. This gives rise to DC voltage at the preamp, causing clicks at volume change. The only bothersome part is these clicks at start, at volume change via XX or from preamp & very rarely a slightly loud click during playing a track.

Since I operate volume control from a preamp, I could install DC blocking capacitors after the DAC. Would you advise this or just live with the clicks?

Best regards,

Arvind


Title: Re: Phase Alignment - WOW, WOW, WOW!
Post by: PeterSt on August 23, 2012, 10:06:49 am
Hi Arvind,

Quote
From what little I could understand this feature applies a DC Offset so that the LSB shifts from zero. This gives rise to DC voltage at the preamp, causing clicks at volume change.

No no no. :secret:

Quote
Since I operate volume control from a preamp, I could install DC blocking capacitors after the DAC. Would you advise this or just live with the clicks?

You could try to live with the clicks (I did myself a couple of months still enjoying the rest), but this is nonsense. Point seems to be at this moment : it is harder for you people to get rid of them than I had imagined. But let's please keep that for a topic like this one : Playback drive drive (http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2184.0).

Kind regards and thank you for the kind words,
Peter