XXHighEnd

Hi all,

Like last year Phasure will attend this year's X-fi show. The sound in our room - room number 30 this time - should exceed everything and all (make up your own subjects ;)). At least I myself have done the best I could, so come over to Veldhoven (Sept. 14/15) and listen for yourself how music reproduction through loudspeakers can perform these days.

Similar to last year we will be doing all together with Bert Doppenberg (BD-Design), but our collaboration extended somewhat to now offering complete systems as if presented by one company and one consistent design (and one responsible party towards you). This has been our idea for over 3 years by now, and today it really is there.

(http://www.stordiau.nl/images/IMG_0001kopied-800.jpg)
The Orelino speakers you see showing off here is a commercial speaker, based on the no-compromises Big Orelo design from last year. That was a tad large, and never meant to really fit in any room. But it would show us possbilities of free open baffle sound. From there the Orelino sprung and I dare say it works even better than the Big Orelo - it will fit your room and looks better (but this is personal of course).

Never forgetting that it is all Bert's (craft)work, we can well add that I was Bert's sheer pain and I "required" (mind the quotes) it to be as good as the Big Orelo. So, way smaller but as good.
Also, it is our both idea to enable customers to buy a complete system - with the guarantee of no audible noise at full gain etc. you all know from me, plus of course you should be able to perceive the same best sound we perceive over here. And if not, the culprit must be elsewhere and can now so (relatively) easily be sorted out. This lead to all the amplification needed to be in the phase plug (the vertical bar you see in the middle of the speaker) which' location is one of these great ideas from Bert.

So, after we both (Bert ahead !) applied some general design principles to let this speaker perform like Big Orelo and Bert crafted all into what you see in the picture, I was given the nice task to let it really work out in the larger room (like mine, which measures 12x8x3m). And well, after more than a week that was achieved yesterday. Possibly because I never give up once I think something can be done. The biggest surprise however, came throughout the process of "tuning" (XOver) it;

It is to be remembered that this is actually an open baffle design. It works as a horn, but still there is no pressure chamber and although that makes the woofers move free (implying no distortion which normally would be there), this is the worst for creating some SPL (Sound Pressure (Level)). So, some DSP certainly would be needed ...
And yes, even PeterSt who is plainly against everything which only smells like "DSP" would admit it should be for the better. Or maybe : just allowed for the bass section (only !).
And on a side note : in search for a best DSP module, I could not find anything that would not compromise severely. Sample rate is always too low etc., and what would happen is that at the back end there's a poor D/A at work, that replacing the nice NOS1 ... (that's what it comes down to). But hey, for the bass ...

So there I was, tweaking with the DSP module and trying to get out something that would not colour and/or buzz. I couldn't do it. Not in a week's time. All sorts of subjects were theoretically to blame - one of them the current Orelino not being the final version yet and the buzzing I heard could be dedicated to resonance - and what to do now. Luckily Bert went off for a well deserved vacation (at this moment of writing he still is) so I couldn't travel the path of finalizing the speaker for this possible resonance. It woudn't have helped anyway ...

Long story somewhat shorter : DSP just doesn't cut it. So, all the means where there to create a best XOver with the mid-high, but all I could get out of it was no-buzz but no bass as well. Nothing we would go for ...

And thus the completely unexpected thing :
I applied a normal passive XOver which I actually only did to see what would come out of that not knowing anymore what else to do. And right at the first attempt it was bingo; All what I had been struggeling with in a week's time had vanished. It just worked. Well, except for the proper XOver point which took me another day (yesterday), but finally the speaker performed way better than my own. And mind you, no subwoofers in the chain (which I always used).

I threw in all the "knowledge" and equipment for measuring, which even includes real time FFT (which I think no speaker designer ever does) and fine tuned the lot with playing real music. The speaker goes flat (!) to 23Hz and the nice thing is that its characteristics are so that beyond that it drops off like a stone (like 120dB/Octave). So no distortions there either; a fundamental of 23Hz just plays and does what it has to do (like implying all its odd harmonics for a squared wave) and 22Hz already does not show at all.

Time alignment - another thing which would require DSP - appeared not necessary because of the mid-high horn has sufficient back/forward headroom to phase align all as should. Mind you, I phase aligned the both, not impulse aligned (Bert knows that this is one of my hobby horses and now I had the opportunity). This too needs real time analysis and since I own the equipment ...

Be shocked ... This plays at a 100dBSPL continuously and easily (playing louder is not much required here). No standing waves anywhere, no buzzing. And might it tell something, yesterday I played over 90dBSPL for 6 hours in a row, and I received no complaint throughout. This is LOUD you know.
And still this is open baffle based. Who would have thought that (Bert not, me not).

I posted this in the Phasure NOS1 board because of course the base is and remains the DAC. So what I know and recognized is the same buzzing implied by regular DACs (or playback software for that matter). It was by accident though that I proved that indeed none of this "DSP" stuff is allowed anywhere. It doesn't work in a DAC, it doesn't work in software and it also doesn't work in a speaker; logic of course, because it would imply the same (of both mentioned). But I was totally open to it and had the idea it couldn't work without DSP anyway. Spending a full week on it was foolish, I see now.
Anyway I think it proves how important it is to have a consistent system where all design elements perfectly match. In this case this goes rather far of course and I think (for design philosophy) further than any Sony set.

Last litte note :
This is the fourth post about this; my previous three attempts invited you all to come over and listen, for which I planned a group hug yesterday (Saturday) - also for people I don't know at all. This, because it would be a one time opportunity to listen to the Orelino's in the larger room, anticipating all might fail in the always disappointing hotel room (of a Show). I twisted and twirled to justify what you would perceive and how it would be for the better. But all three times I couldn't post it; I wasn't even honest to myself.
Now it is too late for this, unless some individual is seriously interested in obtaining a pair of Orelino's before they disappear from here; it possibly can be squeezed in the upcoming days (if you don't like to post in here, contact me through sales phasure com). After the X-fi show Bert will be happy to receive you, but remember this is in a relatively small room (which can be like yours of course - roughly 7x5.5x2.8m).
Let me add to this that I did totally nothing to adapt the speaker to the room; They were dunked somewhere of which thought it would be okay (see photo) and they were never moved. Also, the filter does not contain any notches (would cover for standing waves) anywhere, so chances are fair it works out as "perfectly" in that hotel room. So we hope to see you there at least.

Regards to all,
Peter

PS: Bert doesn't know about this post but I am authorized to do what I want. This goes as far as "selling" with the small though fairly important remark that this logically goes on a first come first serve base, also with the knowledge that three of these speaker systems are in order right now (not counting orders Bert knows about).

Wow... When I hear all that this can achieve, from a person that I have full confidence in, I just feel miserable with what I have :) I just can try to imagine the power that it can boast, plus the weight of the music in which one will immerse...

And they are beautiful to look at !

What word could describe what Bert and you have achieved...

Bravo is not the best word, but it certainly goes in my mind's direction !

Alain 

This sounds all very promising!

I plan to visit the x-fi on sunday mostly to hear this system.
Hope to meet you there,

Regards, Coen

A great achievement!

I'll be there, with some very picky friends  :arrogant:  :veryhappy:

Best wishes,

Stanley

Hey, thanks for the write-up Peter. I'm definitely on the 'very interested' list for the Orelinos. What I'm looking for over my Swings is a more dynamic bottom end - one that can better match the dynamics of the MF/HF horn. The Swings are great speakers (the best I've had to date), but I think there's just too much being asked from the single bass driver. I've found using a SET amp has helped. Having the horn driven SE and the bass driver driven PP (by the in-built bass gain amp) seems to have fixed the issue somewhat... but maybe not totally.

Of course I need to take a listen to the Orelinos before placing an order. I can't make X-fi unfortunately so will take a listen at Bert's place sometime. Looking at my diary, I doubt this will be any time this year though.

Mani.

Mani,

Your Swings contain 2x15" drivers. Per side that is. :)
Just in case you don't know ...

Peter

That is two drivers in"isobaric" mode for extra low distortion. The horn is diven only by one. Or am I mistaken?

Regards, Coen

P.s i am talking about Manis speakers

Correct Coen (both shining forward).

Peter

Hey Peter, I think that was the case for the original MkI Swings. Mine are a pair of MkII Swings, which I'm sure only have a single 15" driver per side. I'm not sure why Bert went this route for the MkIIs...

Mani.

Hmm ... I now vaguely recall something like the both not being able to behave the same because the back-one receives pressure from the pressure chamber while the front one does virtually not, and while in the mean time the front one is subject to the distortion of the back one (and so they start to work against eachother).

But maybe I am making this up ...

Peter

Hey Peter - The Orelino's look great Bert has done a great job with the finish. I was just wondering - from my understanding (but I have to admit I don't always understand you!!) you started thinking that the bass needed a boost and DSP would be the only way but then you found that a Xover worked. Does that mean you had to reduce the output to the HF horn in the Xover to get the speaker balanced? if so what is the sensitivity of the Orelino now? Or did it just *work*.

Hoping to have a listen at some time.

Paul

Peter,

From your first post I got the impression that the Orelino is overall a much better speaker than the Oris. Since it is based on the same mf/hf driver and horn, all the difference is made by improvements in the range 200Hz and below. It surprises me that this changes the overall sound so much, because 70% of the spectrum stays the same. Did Bert also develop a new filter for the mf/hf?

Regards, Coen

Hey Paul,


You understood very well, because I don't think I talked about "boosting" as such, while for sure this was my message. So notice though that while I worked on XOvers and filtering a kind of forever (like for those Swings, though MKI), I had no experience with literal "open baffle". On that matter I could only "learn" from what others tell about it and it includes Bert's Diamond design which in the end failed for the reason of Open Baffle just not being able to work. Hey, says me, and with reference to the room problems it implies. Also, it is the most easy to adopt the "fact" that "of course" it needs boosting as such, because without pressure chamber how to create sufficient SPL otherwise.

I never worked on that Diamond (only always and ever confirmed it didn't work out for the bass), BUT could help Bert with a new Open Baffle design because of the (audible) experience. Help or being a prick maybe. But in the end this is only about making Open Baffle more efficient (all credits to Bert there).

Now a bit careful on that "boost" ...
Where I sure implied "boosting" in a negative sense, this would have referred to "the lower the frequency the more boost (Watts) is needed". I'd say (but not sure) that everybody will think this is "logic" for an open baffle design; The lower frequencies just need more power to emerge (flatly towards the bottom side) and thus it is the idea to apply more power the lower the frequencies go. Bert knows that it was exactly this that I always could perceive because it sounds processed. In the end it is of course (because DSP).

Now on an important side note : The way "active" designs work, is at least always about how to bring the active bass side in balande with the mid-high. This is no secret and any subwoofer starts out with that principle (has to be, because how otherwise make the levels match). So, it needs a volume knob. This is and was my own chain-principle just the same (I think layed out in beginning of the GainClone topic), and for example for Mani's Swings this works the same; there's an active bass side, and a volume knon brings it in balance with the mid-high, where the amp to the mid-high is Mani's own.

One thing : It is actually not allowed to ever change that volume once the speaker is delivered as a complete design, because you will change the XOver drastically with that.

Now, thinking about such a design, it is good to remember that the output of the mid-high amp is input to the bass amp. The former is actually serving as a pre-amp; it "makes" the sound (largely).

So Paul, in summarize, this I would not call boosting. At least not in the more negative sense I would call that boosting as deemed necessary for the Open Baffle.

Back to the main subject, for this Orelino design too the "negative" boosting was deemed necessary. But by sheer accident, because I didn't like the DSP, I applied a normal passive filter, and all the way down it kept on working.
I am not sure whether Bert ever tried (but I think not), which already springs from necessary time alignment, that needed DSP.
I think that because of all applied to make the bass section as efficient as possible (remember, this should be the commercial versin of that Big Orelo) - and which principles will not be layed out to the public - it inherently gets more efficient when the frequency drops. This is not only shown by the straight response (with passive filter) but also by the drop-dead once the driver gives up.
I, most personally, and not hindered by knowledge in the field of loudepaker enclosures, would dare to present it the other way around : the more excursion a driver needs in its closed (enclosure) environment, the more tough that will be because of counter (air) pressure. No such thing with Open Baffle added with other principles I won't tell about (I don't think Bert would like me to). Keep in mind as a vague hint : it is a horn.

It should not be a secret (in all honesty) that the "efficiency" as such within the "boosted" design not in the negative sense, is measured by the output of the amp to the mid-high horn and which in this case is 114dB (on the safe side - otherwise 115dB). The little "trick" could be that one 30W or so GainClone for the mid-high is bridged to a second - also 30W GainClone, and both mid-high and bass show equal output. Thus, mid-high = 114dB thus bass also is 114dB because both are fed with 30W.
See the trick ?

Let me finish this with this real life truth :
When I applied the passive filtering (see upcoming larger post), I used my own amplifiers as well (the 30Ws I just talked about). Those amplifiers normally connect to the very same Orphean Horn (with same XOver point as for the Orelino) which allowed me to use my exact same filtering as well. My own normal speaker has 1x15" for the bass. This is a far more efficient driver as the 12" in the Orelino (don't stick me on the figures, but think in the area of 98dB vs 90dB - a real difference). Now :

In my own speaker situation that volume knob I talked about is at quarter past. With the Orelino it's at noon.
Quite impossible eh ? 1x15" of 98dB and 3x12" of 90dB. And Open Baffle as well (my own bass speaker is just closed but is a horn).
This is how this "open baffle" type is so effcient. The volume knob proves it.
So, 2x30W or so (gain is 20), digital attenuation is the same as always (around -22dB to -25dB for the loud levels) - obviously because the mid-high horn never changed.

Peter

Humm, says this Vandersteen owner.   :)

Hi Coen,

I know from my own first BD-Design contacts that it's a bit difficult to follow which is what. So maybe I make a couple of mistakes here (I don't think so of course :)) but if so I will stand corrected by Bert in later stage;

First of all, the Oris is a by now very old design; it carries a sort of full range driver (of various brands) and there is no single way you can start comparing it to the Orelino. The Oris is a horn (my vision) while the Orelino is a complete speaker.

Next, the Orelino also carries a horn, like the Oris is such a horn. But, for the Orlino this is the Orphean horn, and this is never meant to be full range. It is the same horn as in/on Mani's Swings.
The Orphean uses a compression driver (two-way) which has been filtered / XOvered so good that it is and remains the only mid-high driver which I personally like to see in any speaker design, because of its possible power (400W I think) and sounding like metal instead of paper.
And don't listen to that Cat. ;)

The filter for the Orphean is nothing like what can be used for the Oris (adjacent bass assumed). It exists in three versions, MKI, MKII and PeterSt.
The latter is not completely fair, because always based upon Bert's MKI, but still serious because I worked on that for a year in a row, and still regularly change things. And if my ears don't deceive me, my own (thus MKI based) filter will be in the Orelino. But Bert obviously has to agree with it and there's not much time left for me/us to get it in there. So maybe that can't happen for the Show.
When he is back from vacation he will be floored for the first couple of hours anyway, hearing what happened to his speaker (never forget, it is hs speaker). So it may be difficult to judge in fast enough fashion, similar to it being hard for me to change things in the highs section just because the bass is so thunderly overwhelming (in the most good sense I mean) ... Also see my next post.

Peter

Peter - thanks all is now clear you had actually mentioned the active bass in your first post but I missed it.

Forget this (for now). I had prepared a fairly long post (as usual :swoon:) of which I managed to close the browser instance before posting it.

Grrrrrr

Sh*t I hate this. My previous posts all anticipated on what would come up in this next post (I had already written). Of course by now I don't know anymore what I wrote, so consistency will be gone for sure.
Sorry guys.

Peter

Hi Peter,

I think I mixed up Oris with the Orphean, nevertheless I got my answers in your reply to Paul!


Regards, Coen

P.s. Never mind the Cat, I am old enough to make up my own mind!

This is always a bummer. I've had this happen with emails (some of which took hours to write and perfect).  The only good thing is that, sometimes, version 2 turns out even better.  Takes a few beers to ease the frustration though!

Matt

Here's an update on what was achieved this week so far;
(I will never be able to inject the enthusiasm I had in my lost post because then right after the fact)

Monday I started thinking more towards the ringing of filters, knowing that passive loudspeaker filters/XOvers ring just the same (post, IIR). So, went back to the DSP module.
But actual reason for that was to easily apply a needed notch because a self resonance frequency of the baffle. And notice : in this version of the Orelino the drivers are mounted in the baffle, which is NOT the idea for the final version (drivers will shine-through only, like the Big Orelo).

Again the bass and mid-high where aligned by means of phase (and not impulse), but, with my now "known" technique how to do that, I also applied the time alignment (since I was in DSP mode anyway);
I had slept a night on how to improve the alignment technique as a whole, and thought that very precise alignment would be possible now.
But my few cm of headroom on shifting the horn was sufficient ?

Haha, yes. With normal alignment maybe. But not with what I had dreamt about.
Of course I'll keep the means to myself, but I am now capable of creating a 100% XOver. Thus, prove that it's correct. I don't think anyone can do that.

Example from yesterday (and now in reverse mode making this consistent with my earlier posts about "this" subject) :
I wanted to lower the low end of the mid-high horn by 1dB (remember, that's passively filtered anyway), and as I told in that earlier post, this is not allowed without changing the XOver. My special means shows that in less than half of a second, and getting it right again takes maybe 10 minutes. This is about the slopes on both sides (24dB/Octave in this case), also knowing that when only one side is lowered in output (like my 1dB) the slopes won't match (for the alignment) anymore either. This too can just be checked in a second as well. So, change that when needed and together with the phase alignment with as means the time alignment and all is OK again.

Remember, the big change compared to the first post in this topic is about the now precise alignment. This is the most different from running a sweep or all-frequency noise normally used. You see nothing. Well, relatively. So actually we hope to get close, no, think we do, because the severe wobbling plot "now" looks the best (through the software used). But of course there is a reason to use wideband drivers because they don't need a devistating XOver ...
Haha, listen to this ...

In that first post I talked about the "free sound of open baffle". Oh, is that so ? Well, apparently I didn't know sh*t, but I'm pretty sure I am no different than anyone elsewhere. And no, those with a single (wideband) driver also don't know, because it's all about the bass.

Oh, didn't I tell you ? The Orelino now goes straight to 18Hz. (+/- 1dB in the region up to 100Hz).
17Hz is feasable too, but I just stopped (hey, the illegal boosting :scratching:)
100dBSPL continuous is still a piece of cake (3-4mm of excursion).

The sound

First of all : No standing waves anywhere no matter how low it goes (there's my hobby horse again). Orelino's are 65cm (2ft) from the back wall.

Next, no coloration anywhere. And on this subject, heck, what difficult that is. So, this is how I had to go back to the DSP, because any slidest resonance in something and you're gone. Also notice that this can't be checked with normal loudspaker measurement means because they measure the frequency involved (like e.g. 120Hz at some stage) and not the resonating frequencies which can spring from it, like 60Hz. So, play 120Hz and perceive 60Hz ? haha, may sound as a gag, but that really colors. So what I did was hooking up an FFT analyser and watched all music playing for hours and hours (and more). Only then you learn where issues are and that what you hear must be fake (because too often occurring as seen through the analyser = ... not neutral.

When this "100% filter" was first done on Monday, I could not believe what I heard. So, listened to the speaker for more than a week already, was the most enthusiast already, but THIS ? How to explain it to you. I think I can do that in a kind of technical way :

Envision this slow blues electric bass. The guy (with hat or not) plays his "chords". Well, not real chords, but the melody. This goes from the one hey to the other, right ?
WRONG. Not anymore !
It now seems that no bass player plays like that. And maybe I also found the reason why the bass player at that concert always sounds better at that concert than at home through the "stereo". And I hinted to this long ago : we should have a separate speaker for that bass player in our set. The why was beyond me, but it felt like that.
Not so anymore;

What happens is that any XOver normally "jumps" from the one key (frequency) to the other. Now think of the player moving the string between the frets (also without frets being there of course). So, the string is stretched and the frequency goes up somewhat. Also, such a string sound is always more squary (at least far from a sine) which means that higher frequencies are involved as well (harmonics). This by itself implies that wherever the XOver is (285Hz in our case) you will be playing right *through* that. Mind the through ...

When the frequency graduately changes, they will cancel out "step by step" and the net effect is that you don't perceive the graduate change at all. Well, that is my not-so-scientific reasoning for it. And, instead you just hear the note played die out until the next note is hit (on the string). Not bad when you don't know about the difference (or "reality").

Next thing to tell is that now all basses snorr (my Dutch expression about snorring cats). "Yea, but my basses snorr too" I hear you say, and well, mine did too. But only the lower key ones. And again long ago I told about my waiting (for SQ improvement) until cello's doing that, which in my vision was possible. Ha !
I can now hear that the "snorring" is actually implied by higher frequencies (think about the squares again) and not by low frequency sines at all. So, when low enough (think 30Hz) a pure sine will exhibit similar, but hardly any bass plays that low, so it is not about that in the first place. It again is about how the Xover destroys, and actually makes anything of it, which is vaguening. Also, even a 24dB XOver is rather wide (spreads something like 260Hz around my 285Hz mid point) and a lot can get lost there. Think about a 80Hz more square sound, which has it's third (needed for "square") harmonic at 320Hz. All right in the XOver area ... (and 80Hz plays easily through a bass instrument).

Next thing which clearly occurs - and what I also never perceived before - is how the bass player slowly releases his (chord playing) finger from the string. So, while I talked about dying out of the sound because of the XOver while graduately changing frequency, the other way around happens the same : there is mucho variation in how the player releases the string. This by itself is "enabled" by again those harmonics (higher frequencies) now playing (the snorring actually) which are so easy to hear dying out when they do. I mean, when not there, how to hear them die out, right ?

So there's a whole freaking new dimension added.
And it is seriously freaking, because you won't recognize your favorites anymore.

Sub low

Talking about freaking ... what about frightening;
So, I use(d !) two subwoofers. Can do 12Hz blabla.
Oh, is that so.
Well, no, that is not so. They create low sound. They can indeed create that blush of air if you want. Can shake the room or even your trousers. But they do not play music.

I've had similar stories about my ambient favorites and how they are hard to recognize after a SQ change. But this ?
My "Demo Gallery" is full with that stuff. NOTHING can be recognized anymore. I now see that all this sh*t is full of sub-low I did not know about. I now see that all that stuff seemed to have its "melody" in the higher regions, while it's actually the roar. It is totally unbelievable.
Been to a good movie with great surrounding sound lately ? this does just that;

It is not about adding a blush of air anymore. It is about sheer 3D (??) left/right pressuring the room with all kind of events which makes you think you are in the middle of a nasty thing happening soon. Can I call it orgasmic ?

And still this is open baffle (based). Our Bert applied some nice efficiency principles (meant to supercede the Big Orelo), and they work better than the man expected (and heard) himself. See you tonight Bert ! :)

Oh, finally finished with undoubtedly again too long post, I suddenly recall how I started out the accidentally deleted one :
My (woman) partner in crime's first remark was that the electric guitars sounds so beautiful. An electric guitar sounding beautiful eh ? Women ...
Yesterday she repeated that and added to it that all woman voices now can go easily. Hmm ...
But it is true, there is a purity unheard in it all.
And on the woman voice ... Take Emma Shaplin. Ever back I used a specific track of her for testing. Played it often. And yesterday there was a completely profound synthesizer playing along ? Never heard that. But this is how albums completely change ...

Ok, done. Best speaker ever I dare say, although it is still a proto. Right after the X-fi show it will reach its final stage (within a week) and it will only get better of that.
What you didn't know is that I have been doing this for myself, being the first on the order list (well, for a different but similar version which is a :secret:). I guess we'll reveal that at the Show. Ah, right. Ok, I did it for the Show.
No ... it was for Bert.
For both of us ?
For you ?
:heat:
Peter


PS: If you see how a speaker like this can be changed from one day to the other and from "best" to "outragious", you should also be able to see how we (or customers) can tweak for the better in the DSP department to next share the configuration files amongst all. This is also how it's crucial to NOT apply notches (or boosts) for room correction, which I did not apply anywhere (and which I claim not to be needed). So, applying a new "filter" is a matter of 5 seconds (plugging in the USB cable for it takes the most of that time).

Wow Peter, cannot wait for x fi! Do I understand correctly that your filter is in rhe digital domain? If most time is needed for switching the usbcable... But I have been reading at racespeed so may have mist some points here

Leo, yes, the bass side is in the digital domain as you describe it (DSP).
So, each speaker contains a DSP module, and its working is uploaded through "configuration files".

Nothing special these days (and I myself used such an application aleady 10 years ago, through MIDI (yep)), but integrated in a high-end speaker - I wonder.
And oh, in a not-so-high-end (active) speaker this happens just the same, but there you won't need a DAC either. So this is exactly what the problem is about : once you use DSP means, the output of that can be regarded a sheer DAC (because a real D/A converter is used in there in the last stage), and so for the 300, 400 or 500 euros such a module costs it should contain a good D/A converter as well ?

So for the lowest frequencies I (on and off :)) think this is allowed. Problem though is that the other side of the cross over now is passive, and that you need to know a hell of a lot how that exactly works out, because you now can not sort of "mirror" the both sides. Thus, one is a pile of coils and caps and resistors and it should do what you want, while the other is graphical software and there is nothing to mirror.
Do both sides in playback software and all is digital to begin with, and will output through your fine D/A converters. But for a general speaker this can't work because it would always need that playback software.

Regards,
Peter

Nice Peter. Thanks.

A few questions:

1)


So, when will this become a reality in XX/multi-channel-NOS1?

2) For now, would it be possible for me to apply similar LF DSP with my Swing MkIIs, do you think? Maybe too much work and not possible without your 'secret alignment tricks'?

3) Where do headphones fit into all this? My golden reference are still my AKG K-1000 headphones. I can substitute the speakers directly with these, i.e. they can (need to) be driven by the power amp. I've found them invaluable in giving me an idea of how the music should really sound. Single FR driver, no x-overs, no DSP, no standing waves, nada. And still easily the best sound I've ever heard.

Mani.

'a general loudspeaker'...... Are you joking Peter?
we want loudspeakers (and loudspeaker solutions) dedicated to the player software+ dac :veryhappy:

Hey Mani,


What about 6-9 months from now ?
One thing, the solution will be quite different from what you or anyone expects. The (electrical ;)) design of it is going on right now and anticipate these speakers (anyone's for that matter).
:oops:


I don't see why not, although I'd have to do it and no Swings are around here. But might you happen to have a chance to listen to the Orelino's then I don't think you want that much anymore.
And the very last you would want is listen through headphones. Just saying. :innocent:

Hehe, Peter

Leo,


Well, still it is meant to be just that as well. What I do see though is that when the slightest is wrong (and this can also come from the source) there's buzzing and to my ears this doesn't sound great. I guess it depends on what one is used to (but those who own the NOS1 compare with your old D/A converters ?). So, one of my main (really) scary issues I went through the past two weeks is that it doesn't sound neutral (like how I talked about that). So, creating that real roar and unheard low "under sound" is not so difficult, but when frequencies jump out there it's all a very powerful buzz. Or otherwise think like this : when I claim (like I always and ever do) that XXHighEnd already eliminates standing waves to the larger degree and that the NOS1 "adds" to that heavily, without that people could be in trouble. On the other hand :

I already anticipated on that by just tweaking OUT the more sub low. Thus where it is there where we can expect things to go wrong first, it is a matter of grabbing that config file which cuts to 30Hz. Or 40Hz or whatever. This part is fairly easy to do by everyone, as long as it is about "taking out". Adding, like I did yesterday (was at 23Hz, now at 18Hz) is a complete different matter. And I also know for 100% sure that this can't be done without analyser. This is about those commonly known "loudspeaker software" appliances just not working, especially not in the (very) low frequency area.
It took me close to 3 hours, while before I just couldn't do it at all (see my remark about dropping like a stone beyond 23Hz). Btw, as said, 17Hz will also be possible, and maybe even 16. But at some stage we run into the "movie players" and those frequencies really being (heavily) used, and that at far higher SPL. So it is not wise to go further than what can be expected for SPL (120 ?). Remember, the lower the frequency the more excursion needed for the same level.
There's more to say about this (like room size matters), but maybe 18Hz is sufficiently crazy ?
(for 100% sure I will be talking about this later but then in a somewhat different context - you'll see ...)

Peter

Sup guys,
I wish I was at this X-fi show too for this. Actually should be over there somewhere since I am a Polak. Now in Oz though.
O well, guess just have to wait until these speakers are in my own room here.... since I`ve ordered a pair already  :yes:
Actually  will have whole P1/Bert system, since I`m already the very VERY proud owner of NOS1 and XXcomputer.
Well IDC about searching other companies/components anymore. Now just give P1 all my wads and I simply know I will have want I want - the best sound! Much easier now.
And to think at first(long ago) I thought this damn guy was just possibly full of......... beer?
P1, am I allowed to disclose the exact speaker I am getting yet? Well I don`t even know myself exactly. I`m told it is similar to this speaker.  Apparently has something to do with the fridge or something. Hmmm  Can`t wait though w/e it is.
Enjoyed reading your latest after the fact post too P1. Wow.
It`s all getting very exciting isn`t it. Great stuff man!
Watch that X button though. Silly sober moment again?

The name is P4A  :1eye:

Peter,

You have me salivating with the description you give about the prowess of these speakers...
To not recognize music I used to for many years is something you already brought in here with XXHE and the NOS1. To make another leap forward in quality seems out of reach for me. Something I would like to hear at least one time, but then I could easily stop caring for what I already own, that brings me tons of pleasure already...
Anyway,thanks for sharing this with us.

Alain

Hey P4A, no please.
P1 :)

Nick & I were considering coming over this year to represent the English "Nosser's" at X-Fi but unfortunately we are not able to this time. Next year though we hope to see you all there and hopefully we can drag Mani along as well.

Peter & Bert  -  all the best for a great show and all you Dutch (hey Eric!!) "Nosser's" be sure to post your impressions of the "Orelino".

Have a great time!!

Paul

Hi all,

A little note from the x-fi show today!

First off it is good to know that I visit an audioshow about every year. Mostly to expose muself to different sounds, meet some people and to discover some new music. A couple of years ago I changed from the big VAD show to the smaller yet more interesting x-fi show. The latter was also a little more convenient because it was at much less travelling for me. Now the x- fi reoccupied the former VAD location near Eindhoven in the Netherlands, tough luck for travelling...
The Orelinos and "the sound of windows 8" made me curious enough undertake the trip to the Koningshof otherwise I would have skipped it.

Now I remember from previous visits that almost all rooms were plagued with poor bass quality or at least bass problems. Now there may be some prejudice and taste involved in my verdict about this bass quality, but the venture's rooms undoubtly play a role here. Furthermore these shows are a challenge to get right. Many use new speakers and amplifiers and have very little time to setup correctly. So it is unfair to have a verdict about products based on a bad show experience, but the a good ones I can remember years later. Nowadays I consider myself lucky if I have one demo I really like.

Am I heading to something? Read on!

All rooms were starting up and peeking in a few rooms I heard no sounds that raised my interest. 
Then I found the room of Peter and Bert and immediately there was a familiar sound in the room. Very musical, not having any of the dryness and boom of the others. Peter was playing some tunes that I am not very familiar with, but can be tough for a system to make them sound right...
And the thing is they didn't sound right to me. There was a nasty peakyness on loud passages in the horn, some highs were razorsharp and bass was plagued by a resonance. Also I expected more of the bass- horn integration, instruments and voiced lacked fundamentals. The kind of sound that I can recreate by connecting a mediocre cd player and solid state amp to my horns; not something to get excited about.
Knowing Peter and having heard his home system, this was not anything near the stratospheric standards he holds himself to. He wasn't looking very happy about the sound either. Peters wife Cisca confirmed to me in his absence that the sound at the was plagued by room related issues and not at all like it was at home.

Well that was in the moring.  I took a stroll and discovered another fine room and had a few chats. Then in the afternoon I decided to go back to the Phasure/BD room and Holy Cow there was a VERY realistic drum track playing VERY VERY loud.
No horn nastyness, no bad integration, no razor sharp highs, a very pure, natural and effortless dynamic sound all over the room. Easily imho the best sound of show by now. This was a diffent system!
By now I am familiar with these kind of drastic change in the XXHE world, yet I was still very impressed. I guess the system is still breaking in so imagine whet a fully tuned and broken in system would sound like!

Peter was kind enough to play some tracks that I brought along on an usb stick. These sounded absolutely better than I ever heard them, more natural and even more dynamic (not too much dynamic). I am shure both Peter and Bert (and Cisca) will tell you the sound in the room was so-so, and it probably was in their view and experince. To be frank I still noticed some (room related?) issues in the bass response but the big picture was so compelling that I took no offence to that.

If a system can sound this good at these soundlevels at a difficult show location, be prepared for what this does in your room. I can now assure you that the rants of Peter above are realistic!

I had a very good day and got all my goals fulfilled, it was very much worth the trip. Now I got enough inspiration and motivation to make win8 work and dream about a new speaker.

Regards, Coen

Hi there Coen (and all),

Allow me/us to thank you for your kind report. I think it was as honest and truthful as can be. Ok, allow me to highlight this one :


Exactly. Now envision me a kind of hard-working on the XOver (with the horn and the bass department) I talked about, and which was not all that difficult. Net it took me quite some time, but once I found my "special means" to do it "100%", it was not so difficult - also not doing it again when needed.
But now what happened in this stupid room ...

When we setup the lot at Friday 5pm or so, our first impression was that we forgot to connect the mid-highs at all. Hmm ...
Measurements showed us that indeed "nothing" of that was there. What's up ?
Well, up till now we still don't understand, although many people told us that the sealing in there was special, and dedicated to "conference" what this room was actually for.
Still it was so that if someone was talking in there, you could hear "sibilantly" reverberate his voice in a fairly high frequency (20ms ?). Sounded really nasty. We never found what could have cause that, but maybe the special sealing was just against that (assuming that without this sealing this sibilance maybe was worse).

In between the lines : the highs were so much sucked out of everything, that our 30 or so chairs in there were minimized to 9 Saturday morning; it could help.
Also, those 9 chairs were positioned such that on their locations the sound could be somewhat acceptable, but of course those chairs won't hold their positions long. Oh well.
Moving 5 cm left or right or back or forth drastically changed sound in all imaginable directions. If anything there were very precise sweetspots and if anything again I don't like that. In my own room the phenomenon doesn't exist. Here ? crazy.

Outside the above, on Friday night we had been working on squeezing out the highs per means of lowering the woofer section. It was the only solution we could see. Totally illegal because the first it would do is destroying the XOver, and since both "lines" of mid and bass would not be in balance, no well working XOver could exist. And worse, my method of aligning the both (the proof of it) could not work anymore; we'd have a two dimensional situation where the exact XOver point (Hz) was unknown, and the time alignment also was unknown; normally it's only the latter but now the both had to be varied, and this is undoable. But merely, my very same method of proof now proved that it could not happen (which is logic within itself).
So at 2:10am we were dead and just had to give up.

That's hotel rooms;
The sad thing is that personal me was fairly sure such a thing would not happen. Here it did though, but impeded by high frequency problems - not bass.

In the mean time we already noticed that with a certain amount of people in the room, the problems would not show much. It varied all the time;
It was even so that - sitting in the back - you could clearly hear people walking through the room; all kind of phase changes came to you. Logical to some extend, but there this was a kind of outrageous.

Sunday morning - at some stage - I didn't know what to do or play anymore. All seemed to have stopped working out; what didn't show so much on Saturday now all ceased working. Why ? again no clue.

Well, at least from many people we received a similar message like Coen so nicely described : It doesn't sound well anywhere anyway, "but your room is a total relief". This is at least what kept me going, with the idea that people didn't know how it can sound anyway.

One last thing we discovered at the very end :
It was GerardA who came along with a request to play something from Van Morrison; sounded terrible (oh, really !). Then I thought of my back-home measurements and how I accidentally had seen that Back to the USSR from the Beatles did not show content above 12KHz or so. And so I tried that. And suddenly there were No-Problems (at all IMHO).
How ?
Something went just totally odd in that room for the higher frequencies. And I can tell you, all with the highest transients worked out totally grey. And I mean grey. Unplayable.

Luckily were are out of there ... :heat:
Peter

Peter,

Thanks for sharing your struggle!

I still think it sounded way better in the afternoon. Besides that the room was busier you also opened the curtains somewhat, probably for some fresh air. Maybe that helped the acoustics too.

No more Veldhoven?!

Regards, Coen

Haha, with these unpredictable results ? better not.
But using the same room as last year should just be OK; there everything worked right out of the box and we did not need to search for the slidest anomaly somewhere.

Oh, I now recall that last year I measured the mains to be on the safe side, and from there we "saw" our halogen lights popping up nasty peaks. That is how we needed another house ring;

One of those rings "burned" right after plugging in one of the amps. Then we needed the maintenance man to repair that, who also could tell nicely how all was connected concerning the mains stuff.

But this year's room ? It had one wall outlet only (really). There was one other at the opposite longitudinal side of the room, and that one came with some cord from the room next door. These things should be forbidden.

Peter

Nope, just one driver is used in the later Swings and which is the situation at Mani's.

Bert

Thanks for that Paul! For comments I leave things to Peter as I can't follow him as quickly and therefore very little monitored or corrected if needed...

I am not a man of so many words so to speak. ;-)

Bert

I just found the show report from hifi.nl :
http://www.hifi.nl/artikel_pagina3/21065/Verslag-X-fi-High-End-Audioshow-2013-Contrasten.html

Funny ... I read the whole text, and nowhere (that I found) a remark has been made about good performance/sound, but one ... (remarks about poor sound or way too loud playing, yes) ...

een kamer verder stond BD-Design met hun unieke set hoornluidsprekers en luxe apparatuur van Phasure. Hoewel de ruimte voor wat akoestische  problemen zorgde was het aanwezige publiek over het algemeen tevreden met de klanken van deze toch wel fraaie luidsprekers met hun eigenzinnige ontwerp.

Still a bit vague, but since it's the only expression about "suind quality" from the reporter, let me translate it (to my next capabilities) :

In the room next door there was BD-Design with their unique set of horn speakers and luxury equipment from Phasure. Although the room caused acoustical problems, the audience generally was satisfied with the produced sound from these charming speakers in flamboyant design.

I think it is fairly much justified to put this in the context of "the better room" because I have been talking to the guy who wrote this, who also vistited our room a second time for explicit reasons ...

Peter

First: I feel I should apologize, to Peter most of all, because it was my little throwaway comment about my Vandersteens that Peter closed quickly, before realizing it was the same page where he had been working on his magnum opus comment about the Orelino speakers.  I will try to make future comments more substantive, so at least if someone loses a comment while closing one of mine, it will have been a little more worthwhile!

Second: Peter, is there any way, without overmuch fuss or cost, to have the forum server(s) auto-save draft comments?

Third: This is I think at least the second time the particular room facilities at an audio show haven't allowed Phasure to perform near its best.  It might not be a bad idea to have a couple of "room treatment kits" (one each for Europe and the US), a few cylinders for corners, some first reflection treatments for walls and ceilings, at the show sites in case the room turns out to have such problems that you would really have to screw up the system response to try to deal with it otherwise.

I'm very much hoping either you have a show near where I live or I am traveling near where you are having a show in the not terribly distant future.   :smile:

Jud, no worries man, your comments are never daft. So no need to save them in draft either. Just post.
:)

Anyway I don't see where apologies are needed. Really.
But special thanks for your good advices !

Peter

Since my name has ben mentioned I must give my reaction I guess.
After 30 years I visited a hifi-show again, this time with wife and children and we had a nice afternoon. I told them we had to check if new audiosystems sound better then our aged homesystem. Well luckily no system sounded better! ;)
All the rooms had either to much bass, heavy colouration or no definition. At entering the BD-XX room there was a big difference, phenomenal definition like comparing 4k with VGA. But after sitting down some strange phenomena got in the way. Like people moving close to the speakers, changed the soundstage abruptly. Mind they were not straight in between speaker and listener.
It comes to my mind like the horns are like a radar that makes it possible to see all the obstacles in the room.
Then my favourite track of Van, Moondance, sounded awfull, no base, no warmth, no rhytm. When I came home I played my vinyl-version and was afraid this was a different song, but I'm sure I saw the title on the monitor after Peter found it after a long search.
So it was disapointing to don't hear the perfect bass I was expecting but it was nice to have a chat with the St-family, and my wife is getting warmed up for the NOS1.
Since our government doesn't know anything about economy we have to keep our money in our pockets here in the Netherlands, so I'll have to wait some more before I can join the happy NOS1 family.

What about some captions re the photo's. Presume its your wife showing good interest in loudspeaker cables for a HiFi wife. Mine would never go near anything like this preferring to go shopping for womenly things.

Would be good to see a photo of St Peter.

The utmost right gentleman in the middle picture is Peter
doing his prayer!

Peter has an XX-badge, my wife is indeed checking the cable behind the Orelino (it's her biggest complaint at home, I already posted them here some time ago!) and the children are having fun.
Maybe some of the other people can come forward here?

Look here:http://www.stereophile.com/content/cas-2013-day-one-scaling-heights (http://www.stereophile.com/content/cas-2013-day-one-scaling-heights)

It was posted before on this forum.

Regards, Coen

Gee... I thought Peter looked like "Doc" in "Back to the Future"... ;)

Alain

Well well its nice to put a name with a picture thanks.

I always feel sorry for people who do HiFi shows, its unforgiving hard work and long hours. Almost impossible to get a great sound but people are quick to report bad sounds which can have a negative effect.
But a necessary evil to get exposure for your product and in the long run it does work.   

Yea, nice picture; At first I thought OMG what's the guy doing there ?! But I now see that apparently I was teaching and preaching there and it even was funny ?
Anyway, look closely; you can easily see that I make up *everything*.

haha

Hi there Gerard,

Yea, well, I don't recall telling it to you, but this really isn't a horn property - I promise/guarantee you that. This was just this room (I think I told about it in this topic somewhere).
I think there will be a 6moons report about this Show and possibly they will tell about this phenomenon too. I mean, they noticed the exact same (without me telling it) and they use horns themselves (Avant Gardes).

Since I have set up all in my room again I really should listen to Van Morrison and see how it works out there. That most sibilant voice really came to me as that strange high frequency reverberation in the room. But I will tell you how it works out here.

One other thing :
You are explicitly invited to our house just for fun. BUT you'd have to bring your wife and kids (please). The special reason (seen through my heart and eyes) : your wife and kids.
The remark has already been made by someone else, but that someone else did not know it was your wife examining the (non existent) cables. I don't know exactly why, but I saw this as the most special and I'd like to go as far that your wife thinks it is time for you for something new finally.
Yep, I am strange.
Your kids no different. *That* particular part went as far as Ciska asking me to put up some Disney or the like (no, K3 was not available anyway), but I could not find it (but had it somewhere - we were sure).

So see ? That is why the whole family is invited.

Kind regards,
Peter

Hi Peter,

That's a very nice invitation!
My wife enjoyed talking to you and Ciska and the children were having fun too. So we're happy to visit.

I hope you like K3 or something from the top40 or how they call that these days, because the children can get bored by the old peoples music!
There is some hope for us because Gwen just started pianolessons.....
I'll be having very high expectations since if the not so good sounds can be fixed to the same level as the good sounding parts it must be the best sounding system in the world!
My wife would be happy to buy the Orelino's, they look gorgeous and no speaker cable! I'll have to find a reason why we shouldn't since my boss did not raise my salary at all :( and I only won 50 euro in the lottery last week.
So we'll have to pick a date soon.

Give our kind regards to your family!

Huh?

So, are both the LF and MF/HF amps built into the Orelinos? Hell, why not go the whole hog and build one channel of the NOS1 into each Orelino and connect via dual AES or something?

Really looking forward to hearing the Orelinos myself... and maybe placing an order thereafter.

Mani

Haha, that upgrade is planned for later. But here and again (like my hint to similar the other day) : (still ;)) a bit different from what you expect.

But otherwise, yes, all the electronics are built into the phase plug (the vertical bar in the middle of the speaker). Only one interlink (yours) comes out of it (towards the DAC). And a power cord of course.


There has always a lot of betting going on with the UK boys. I don't recall one with you though ?
:whistle:

Peter

I'm not really the gambling sort. But I have to say that since yesterday evening, I'm more inclined towards a pair of Orelinos than I ever have been and I think it's a pretty fair chance that I'll go ahead and order a pair after listening to them. What makes me say this? Well, yesterday I tweaked around a bit with the BD amps in place and I have to say that I was getting a seriously nice sound out of the Swings. I mean, seriously nice. Satty and I sat through the whole of Beethoven's 7th after the kids had gone to sleep. Never happened before - not the whole symphony. And as fate would have it, just when I get a really nice sound, I'm off travelling for work :(

My feeling now is that if the Swings sound this good, how bloody good do the Orelinos sound? I've decided that I'm not going to jump ahead of myself and will let you and Bert develop the 'complete Orelino' concept a bit further. Meanwhile, I'm going to try to stay away from tweaking for a while and just enjoy what I've got. Gonna try at least.

Mani.

Ok, seems a bit like chit-chat, but you know what I said within something like 10 seconds when I heard the Orelino's at Bert's place ?

That this speaker makes you feel in love with classical which you always avoided.
Bert can confirm this very statement.
And yesterday I heard it again. But now at my place (hey, they are back again, unplanned).

And then to think that my father was that ever tweaking guy himself (say back in the 70's) of what I recall - that I loved his sound already back at the time with Leak (tube) amp and Leak speakers, and that the ONLY thing which resembles that is what is playing right now over here (at this time Duke Ellington in Big Band fashion).

Strange addition maybe : I have this amp and speakers here, but it doesn't cut it (all right, not from over 10 years back). Still I promised myself to not listen to classical really, until I could reach that type of sound.
Of course, back at the time all was played through a Thorens TD124 and my dad's self designed built further tube equipment (I have that all laying around here) and somehow now this is equalized (for me) through digital. Btw, my father hated CD ... (but also used that 14bit true PCM ADC "video" stuff later).

Ok, maybe I get emotional, but what to say ...
Yes, that my second remark to Bert was that this horn speaker truly sounds like a transmission line.

And what I proposed today to Bert (after thinking about it yesterday) is that Bert (or we together) redefined how digital must sound.
Maybe.

Peter

I have to say that I am sometimes surprised by the weight of your statements Peter... But the worst is that I believe you...

 :evil:

Ah, there you go.  Cheers on your enjoyment, and may you head on back after not too terribly long a time away.

Hey Peter,


When I read the above I could not help but remember my impression after first listening to these transmission lines.


So now I am even more enthusiastic to hear the Orelino's. Transmission line bass quality but with much sensitivity and dynamics a very mouthwatering prospect.

Which do you refer to ?

The ones I just made !!!! the IPL S5's which are by a big margin the best transmission lines I have heard.

http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2678.msg27663#msg27663