Guys,
Edit: sometimes a morning does of coffee works wonders .... So

"I guess we should ask VJ for the real "connection"

Ofcouse I have an answer, at least a part of it ...

Lower order auditory pathways are pretty much a reflex action. This is the defense mechanism from millions of years of evolution. Near instantaneous, for fight or flight. This has been perfected by evolution itself, and we can all pat ourselves on the back, and say we are on the forefront of this technology. Those who didn't probably got buried under a stampede of wooly mammoths I guess .....
Stereo reproduction fails in eliciting this pathway naturally, and causes listener fatigue. If this does not pass, what follows thro with the rest of the music is not processed as real. When one does get thro this gateway in the natural fashion, it can open doors to a multitude of higher order brain functions (edit: not the same for localization), which is very complex.
Anyways Mani, you reflect my experience with a very strong visual feedback to the music .... Borderlines .... synesthesia
I think we are well beyond sound stage, tone recognition ..... the usual audiophile stuff,   with higher order processing. Now we are seeing music as a whole, like the artist intended. Music as a portrait!

Happy listening
VJ

Hey Mani,
No worries bro...
I suspect 1a is a huge step up considering both you and Peter are smittened by it.
Good to hear your progress..
Vj

Yo Mani,
Congrats dude!!
Even though your comments sounds a bit harsh, I'll take it with a grain of salt, afterall we are all a bit crazy!
Mine might take a while ... so you "will" hear from me again 
Afterall Peter's ravings were with the NOS-1 for about a year now
Looking forward to your impressions!!!
Cheers,
VJ

Hey Arjan,

I just wanted to let you know, my first impression on the MK-II was just the same. It felt very ordinary (nothing special)  ... What was Peter raving about?, live with them for a while, then slowly you feel it's virtues grow. More specifically it does not have audible distortion/enhanced dynamics (these are loudness cues with higher order harmonics, such as the amps clipping or the speaker distorting), which can as you say cause a "wow effect" in the beginning, but your ears will later tell you something's wrong.
Previously, when discovering music before, I would listen to less than one minute of a song or few songs on CDs for sampling, now, I tend to listen to the entire album.

Congrats on your 1a, I'm looking forward to your impressions.

"First less distortion implies less low frequency "data "

This answers a part of the question. However, 2 weeks ago I auditioned a pair of speakers ($85K), which used servo subs, placed sideways. There was a strong "boominess" to the bass, kind of overhang with the notes, which implies some room mode interaction. Or may be it's the distortion you are talking about. Edit: this is the typical presentation of bass in speakers. Many would hear this and think nothing is wrong.

Also I believe it's the clarity of the OB bass, as one one gets used to it, easy to hear issues with ported or closed subs.

Edit: Human bass perception is not completely studied, and my experience is that we are much more sensitive to distortion in the low key registry than previous thought. From the prior link of FM curves, it is seen, these curves were made with headphones, where in bass response can cause inaccurate pressure pain response in the ear canal, and this is still bit of a controversy. Adding to this is the multitude of stereophonic or monophonic bass generators (aka subs) like the one I mentioned above, where in the complexity of room and transducer/IMD distortion become a dominant factor. Also notice, the multitude of direction these are placed, for convenience and design. This prevents the forward (localizing) edge to be accurate enough for the ear.

Orelo MK-II's bass performance:
 

I know this is where Peter is going to jump all over me.

 For reference: My room on prior placement had a 6dB dip in 50-55Hz range, a boost upto 20dB in the 15Hz range., otherwise smooth.

1. Tonality: accurate. Low distortion basically at work. It's just not boom boom boom, but the multitude tonality of bass can be experienced.

2. Bass weight: I took my time for this. First there is the break-in where in it had yet to develop. Secondly as somewhere Peter mentions, I thought it was not all that evident, feathery light. Then drums are played with proper umph, some records are bass shy I guess! Or recording error?

3. Bass localization: This is the fun part!  My experience as bass can be directional only 2D maybe 3D in good recordings, and it was with my prior speakers; but accurately localizing 3D bass is the interesting part. Low distortion at work with proper phase. This is in regards to an entire percussion ensemble.  How about detecting a bass square wave ..... Sure can do.

4: Room mode excitation:  speakers are very placement friendly, very little modal interaction. My experience so far is no treatments are necessary.

5: Ancillary findings: Yesterday I played a percussion ensemble album, and it was a bit strange feeling. There was a visual/sensory feedback (of the instruments) in the appearance of "energies" all over the sound stage. Never felt that before, starling dynamics top to bottom. Well I do know what it is ... synesthesia. 

Follow up on the the link to the video, and Peter's comment:

First: ....... I was warned about the horn shout, in speakers, and told to avoid,.... this was prior to even purchasing my second speakers (yeons ago), and that was forever engraved in my brain, and the first thing I did when these speakers came over, was... And every day it's still in the back of my mind, in every tune trying to point the issue out, not only that, the concentric horn, I though I could point out a design issue ... Alas it's not so at this "point" of time ... Seamless, well kudos to Peter/Bert.

I have/had speakers which are wide dispersion .... Without getting into the technicality (implied by this post) 360deg dispersion is a is a big issue. The sound from 0° to approximately 45° cancel each other out, on my prior speakers there was a huge drop from 5000 to 20,000Hz to approximately 20 dB. Room becomes increasingly important. The design which Peter/Bert took actually is quite brilliant, the horn is wide dispersion, but not too wide, the bass is OB, but with a horn dispersion.

Perhaps line arrays speakers may be another answer, with 180 or 120 deg cancellations can be overwhelmed by the forward wave. This would be a design challenge. All the line arrays I've heard have issues with imaging.

One not does need ambient information with exactly 180 deg as the guy in the vid mention, my experience, this was recently re-evaluated with the Oreleo MK-II, and that is not a simple statement coming from me. This "idea" needs to be reevaluated.

Secondly if we uses the amp cal from my prior link, we would see that increasing the power from 200 to 300w or to even 400w is actually irrelevant, even from 100W.

Total BS ...

 

Adding to Peters explanation ...
I've had low sensitivity speakers, and I know their performance level.
This is for the fellow readers, amp requirements

http://www.crownaudio.com/elect-pwr-req.htm

One can spend an hour with different scenarios. Let's say 85dB speakers listening 3m away with 85dB listening level with 3dB headroom, 18W ... No biggie right, now let put cymbals with dynamic range to 115-120dB .... Then it's possibility is uncertain, until unless you have your own power generator. (Thanks to Peter, he alerted to me on this a year ago)

A particular amps power rating from my understanding is for a single note, and it will drop for complex passages. Power supply is a big limiting factor for most amps. Class D can do a better job on this with the switchmode supply, but they themselves are limited by the technology.

 Peter, I think you are spot on ... multi-amping is mandatory for realistic audio playback.

Playing with these speakers for about a week, I'm getting more and more acclimatized to its capabilities. I can probably see where the NOS-1a can enhance playback, there is a very small margin, ;-) (but probably an important milestone, considering Peter's response).
Mani, let me know your thoughts when you have your NOS-1a

I know Peter talks about cymbals all the the time, it actually took this setup to understand where he is coming from, this probably would relate to the high sensitivity. Considering cymbal clashes require enormous power requirements for ultra short period of time, I think this would be the forte of high sensitivity speakers for playback at realistic levels. Recording mistakes with enhanced hi frequency is easily seen, such as cymbals, which all of a sudden stand out in a recording, probably because the speakers used in the process did not have necessary dynamic intensity for realistic playback.

Hi CoenP/XP,
You are indeed correct, there are many ways to skin the cat.
However the direction Peter took makes in unique, since it is accurately calibrated on the speaker, it is reproducible.
Otherwise one has to work with the specific transducer, it's characteristics, crossovers, speaker design, and the results may vary so much that it might might not make sense. There is much to add to this, all in due time.
Kind regards,
VJ

Let me reemphasize the importance of FM curves. It is nice in a way Peter/Bert have made it happen. On the fly one can change the settings, long behold, flat frequency response actually sounds bad on most recordings. Dialing it around FM helps with a more meaningful recreation of the signal. Meaning, the way these speakers play music, one can easily say somethings wrong with the recording, hum .... manipulate the curve, and yes one can recreate the recording event.
The speakers, amps FM curves and crossover work quite seamlessly. The different permutations on the FM curves makes it a very powerful tool for plaback. This would be impossible in seperate or different speaker/amp matching, where there is only one result, which is not calibrated for.

And yes, I've yet to discuss "Bass"

Hey Peter,

Thanks for the shout! 

The practicality of this is astounding. Though we know all the theories on the FM curve, it's application actually has not been performed to this level. And in practice, this actually brings in "unique" results, unlike anything on the market. There is more to be discovered! These speakers open new possibilities.

VJ

Hi Mani,

As I mentioned I was fortunate to get these Orleo's. Maybe I harassed them more than you?

You will find these speakers have a learning curve, small but (indefinitely) extended learning curve because of its versatility.

I have the NOS-1 , again I'm still a bit behind on the DAC arena.

Peter,
Final word on imaging may take a bit of time. Placement is different, the omnis were along the long wall, further apart, and the Orelo on the short wall. Even though both are big speakers, Orelo is much larger, so I need to play with placement. Again with more of the music I've heard, there is a similar sense of imaging.

Cheers,
VJ

So,
I've been playing with these curves for a while, and they are indeed very very interesting! Some of the design concepts Peter/Bert came up with make this design a landmark in speaker technology, and that I would not say lightly.

Since these speakers play "realistically" one can just use real music as a guide. My experience so far is that these curves help compensating for all the small changes from recording process. One can see how a poor recording was done, or how a good recording/mixing artist shines.

This is quite apparent, when plays a particular genre of music for a while and adjusts the FM curves, forgets about the curves. Let's say play electronic music, FM curves are adjusted for spaciousness, and then switch over to a live concert, suddenly things sound not quite right, image density very poor. Tighten up the curves, and things fall into place.
Play classical music for a while, then switch to a the girl with the guitar, suddenly girl seems out of size (not that it's whacked out or anything, but not real), switch curves to change image size, back to authentic proportion. There are many smaller paths one can take, right size, push the image a bit back, for those too forward recordings or vice versa.

In many ways one can get an idea of what went on with the recording/mixing. Maybe even comment on the speaker he/she used for playback, because certain things were not solved or heard, and let thro?

Many of the things Peter talks about "dialing in" I'm yet to experience with.

It even might be used to compensate for some hearing loss.

All in all, it's is refreshing Peter and Bert did not just with the "flat" response, but gave an option to manipulate the sound for ones own benefit.

 

 I have been fortunate to be playing with the Orelo for the last few weeks, and thought I should put in a few words out. I was somewhere mid or late with the Phasure DAC, and always seem a bit behind anyways to participate!

Well I'm fortunate with the speakers 

A complete/comprehensive review might not be possible because these speakers are quite unique with the front end (XXHE) as well as the settings on the speakers making them quite (edit:) "versatile"

I prefer to go into details in each of their specific abilities on separate threads.

Few quick things for completion on this mini review

High frequency: crystal clear, smooth. Best I've heard so far, pleasing to the ears. Not one grain of harshness.
Mid Fq: crystal clear. This and hi-freq will be dealt in detail on the FM thread.
Bass: very interesting, low distortion easily experienced. Open baffle bass  .   A separate bass thread required.
Tonality: perfect!
3D: equal or better than omni and dipoles. Still a working progress with speaker placement, and settings.
Image density: totally convincing playback
Image size: authentic for all types of music I've tried so far!

Interesting points:
1. Easy to detect square waves especially with electronic music.
2. FM curves make these speakers very interesting and unique.
3. Can easily see how the recording artist manipulated the sound for good or bad
4. Finally it is nice to have good bass.
5. Oh yeah, they don't honk. If I placed a curtain, or blind fold anyone and walk them into the room, they will not be able to identify this from real music .... Sheffield drum CD, Chesky test CDs perfectly recreated.

In many ways I would consider these speakers land mark design. Highly recommended IMHO

Fit/finish: 10/10
Communication: 12/10  Peter/Bert --> awesome guys
Well planed design, with future upgrades in mind, kudos guys!!

Few minor things are still a working progress.


Rest to come,

VJ
 Ps if I missed anything specific someone was looking for, please don't hesitate to ask.

Oh yes, I have a very strong set of references, I've heard almost all the typical luxury/High end products on the market, in show conditions and demo rooms. Even though I haven't changed too many speakers, I've had a flurry of amps pass thro my system (some of them product of the year etc), and even though I haven't talked much about the inbuilt active amplification, there is not much to say, that it is perfectly mated to the speakers, it's the best I've heard so far!

Ps(2) as one can see, I've compiled the review somewhat unorthodoxically, since I've taken a lot of things for granted. For example, no head to head comparison with other products, not feasible due to the unavailability of different amps at this point in time, even more a reason -->"not necessary" ). Only reference is pure live music. In many ways the complete "XXHE system" in a different orbit. The whole system just works!!!
I've achieved goals close to this in a couple of my prior systems (a bit different), but none like live!