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496  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: dedicated mains earth on: February 19, 2016, 04:07:14 pm
Following on from the above post...

When I first installed my dedicated low-impedance AC mains line, 15KVA isolation transformer and dedicated earth (bonded to Neutral output of isolation transformer), I was disappointed with the sound. I had such high expectations, and they were totally dashed. On the one hand, the sound was 'cleaner' in the sense that there was less hash, but on the other the dynamics were compressed. I spent a fortune installing all this and was determined to find a solution.

My feeling was that the isolation transformer was increasing the impedance of the AC mains line, sort of 'slowing' everything down. The system simply couldn't keep up with the transients in the music. This increased impedance was perhaps creating a modulation effect between the amps and the NOS1a. So the solution was to have some device sitting immediately after the isolation transformer to decrease the impedance. It would have to have some sort of store of charge in order to do this. I went for a PurePower P2000 battery regenerator, with a large SMPS and class-D output.

The PP2000 definitely improved the dynamics. I was right! But... it also added a tremendous amount of noise to the system. And you can't do this with 118dB sensitive horns. So I switched back to just powering everything off the house mains, and really the sound was pretty much the same. All this expense for absolutely nothing.

But then I had the idea that a good AC regenerator with linear power supply and class-AB output. The obvious contender was one of the PS Audio units. Because the objective was to reduce AC impedance as much as possible, I went for their large P10 unit.

And the sound has been transformed. Exactly how I expected it to be when I set off on the dedicated AC mains journey.

Was it all worth it? Up until a couple of months ago, I would have said no. I think sticking to good old house mains is OK. This is how Paul (Scroobius) is currently powering his system, and it sounds bloody good.

But with the introduction of the Intona, I now feel having a dedicated AC mains line for the NOS1a and amps starts to make a lot more sense. If you want to isolate the dedicated AC line as much as possible, then you'll need an isolation transformer and impedance lowering device. And now things start to get very expensive, and perhaps not worth it.

Just my thoughts...

Mani.
497  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: dedicated mains earth on: February 19, 2016, 03:48:04 pm
Hey Joachim, from the link:

Quote
Whilst a definite safety feature when used as designed, like all things electrical PME presents some risk potential for those tempted to idly bung in a 'hifi' earth. If the house supply is PME then idly adding a local earth spike in addition to the bonded neutral has the effect that your house could end up as the safety earth route for 10-100 houses in the area. For example in the case of a broken neutral elsewhere in area supplied by the same substation transformer the multiple bonding, and all the leakage currents from your neighbourhood's hundreds of bits of inlet-filtered equipment /SMPS now sees your hifi's earth. Do you still want to rely on your earth spike ?

The Right Way

There is nothing wrong with connecting a local earth providing that it and the earth cable connected to it through your house can carry such a fault current. If you choose to add an earth spike it can be done on a PME system but only in this way: it must be bonded to the (PME) earth bonding point at the consumer unit only, using a conductor of at least 16mm2

Quite frankly, I think it's clear that adding just an earth spike is pretty useless...

BUT...

This is not the case in my setup. I am using an isolation transformer and have my earth spike (actually a 3m long copper cylinder with electrolytes to ensure constant low impedance to earth) bonded to the Neutral output of the transformer. My earth acts as a true safety earth for only the dedicated line and not the rest of the house or neighbourhood. This is a totally different setup to the one described in the document.

I think the real conclusion is just leave the safety earth alone. (Edit: Unless you want to go through the hassle of installing an isolation transformer. But I wouldn't recommend it - see next post.)

Mani.
498  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: dedicated mains earth on: February 19, 2016, 03:22:49 pm
I just tried Peter's original idea:

Audio Ring
- Audio PC as lean as possible and without monitor
- D/A Converter (connected to Audio PC)
- Power Amps (preferably no pre-amp)
- (connection to Music Server PC via direct LAN cable)

House Ring
- Music Server PC
- Monitor
- When wanted, external disks with switching supplies
- (Connection to Audio PC via direct LAN cable)
- Router, Modem, etc.

So essentially, I just moved the audio PC from my 'dirty' mains line to my 'clean' mains line to achieve pretty much Peter's exact setup. And the sound changed for sure... in very much the same way as increasing SFS. It became fuller, but also flatter, less dynamic and with less sparkle. The 'groove' was missing.

There is no doubt that I prefer the sound with the audio PC on the 'dirty' line, keeping the 'clean' line solely for the NOS1a and Orelo speakers, with, of course, the Intona doing the duty of galvanically isolating the NOS1a from the audio PC. (Without the Intona, this is a massive 'no-go' as potentially nasty ground loops would be created all over the place.)

You are the guy that can test this by reinstalling the standard ATX SMPS into your AudioPC.  I can't test it just yet but wheels are in motion for my ATX LPS...I have a custom case being cut this week in which to stuff it all and once that is done I will be able to test the ATX Controller PCB and then all manner of LPS scenarios.

But in the meantime, if you had some spare time, perhaps see if your AudioPC less LPS still performs at the same level.

Well this now becomes very important IMO. With the audio PC on the 'dirty' line, does one really need an expensive linear ATX PSU? Might a good SMPS ATX be just as good, or even perhaps a little better? I will definitely try this... but not for a week or so at least. The only ATX SMPS I have here has malfunctioned. I'm sending it back to Seasonic because it's still within its 5-year warranty, but don't expect a repaired unit to be sent back to me for a while. (Also, I'm working out of the country all of next week.) Will report back as soon as I have a chance to try things.

Meanwhile, if anyone else has two *isolated lines, perhaps they could try my setup and report their thoughts.

Mani.

* Of course, my AC earths are not truly isolated - they can't be as there is literally 'earth' between them. I've taken some measurements between the shield of the input Clarixa to the Intona and the shield of the output Clarixa from the Intona. The DC resistance is 3.7MΩ. The potential difference is 0.345V. If there were no Intona in place, the current that would be flowing through the Clarixa shield would be 9e-8A. (Edit: I guess this is the DC flowing through the Intona.)
499  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: dedicated mains earth on: February 19, 2016, 12:29:15 pm
It'll be trivial for me to compare RAM vs. HDD with the setup as it currently is. I'll do this this evening. And if there is no difference, I'll start playing around with the settings in XX, starting with SFS.

Well, I actually started with the latter and played around with some SFS settings. Recently, I've settled on SFS=0.07 - really nice sound with absolutely zero hiccups. I set SFS to 10 and listened. The sound definitely changed exactly in line with what we'd expect - it thickened slightly, became flatter and lost the lovely sparkle.

So, SFS still matters, even with my two AC mains lines and galvanic isolation between them via the Intona. Exactly how SFS can still make a difference is totally beyond me.

Via the mains? Well, there is no way noise could be travelling back from the PC, through its linear PSU, through the PP2000 on-line battery regenerator (i.e. batteries always connected to the inverter), through the house's consumer unit, back to the AC meter, through the dedicated low impedance AC line, through the dedicated hifi consumer unit, through the 15KVA isolation transformer, through the PS Audio P10 regenerator to the NOS1a. No way!

Via RFI? Well, the NOS1a sits in my little 'vinyl ripping studio' in the basement. This has a Faraday cage built around it (or as close to a real Faraday cage as I could get - the mobile phone signal cuts out as soon as I enter). The everything else sits outside this 'studio'.

Through the USB connection? This seems the only explanation to me. So, perhaps the Intona and the NOS1a are still not totally immune from USB noise?

Thoughts?

Mani.

Edit: Something I forgot to mention but that may be important is that the difference between SFS=0.07 and SFS=10 was much less than I expected.
500  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: dedicated mains earth on: February 18, 2016, 11:34:43 am
More later Anthony, but for now I'll just say that I had the whole system running off the PP2000 when I first tried the Intona. I only received the PS Audio P10 last week and that was when I set up the 'clean'/'dirty' AC lines.

It'll be trivial for me to compare RAM vs. HDD with the setup as it currently is. I'll do this this evening. And if there is no difference, I'll start playing around with the settings in XX, starting with SFS.

In a way, after all these years of XX development, I really don't want the Intona (along with a dedicated AC mains circuit) to be the 'holy grail'. But if it is, it is...

Will be back with my thoughts later this evening.

Mani.
501  Ultimate Audio Playback / Orelino / Orelo MKII Loudspeakers / My latest visit to Scroobius's place on: February 18, 2016, 11:27:21 am
On Tuesday I had the pleasure of listening to the latest incarnation of Paul's system. I have to say that ever since my first visit (I don't know, maybe 3-4 years ago), Paul's system, in whatever configuration it happened to be, has always been a bit of a reference for me. It finally no longer is (explained later), but it's been so useful for me on my own hifi journey.

So, what's the latest incarnation like? "Extraordinary"... "unbelievable"... "superb"... All of these, for sure.

I simply haven't heard anything approaching live music as much as I heard at Paul's on Tuesday. The dynamics are literally 'breath-taking'... especially at the SPLs Paul was sometimes playing at. And it seems to me that this is where 99.99% of all hifi systems in the world ultimately fail - they will NEVER be able to recreate the dynamics generated by real instruments. NEVER. Haha... but 118dB horns? Well, these can get pretty close, if you can contain noise at a level that makes them possible to live with in a normal domestic environment. And the Orelino (and Orelo) speakers achieve just this.

Played at lower volumes was in a way even more impressive to me. The sound stage shifts right back, well behind the speakers themselves. You can imagine the musicians sitting in Paul's conservatory just playing away. The detail and texture, even at low volumes, is incredible. And all of this is simply intoxicating.

So why is Paul's system no longer a reference for me? Well because our setups (rooms especially) are so different. I simply cannot sit so far away from my speakers. But conversely, mine are much further apart, so I get a much better stereo spread than Paul does. But there's an even more fundamental difference. My system is ultra-smooth, but still with detail. The bottom end is fuller. Voices and instruments are richer. There is not a hint of 'edge' to anything. The sound is seamless. Much less exciting or impressive than Paul's sound. Almost boring in comparison. Maybe I'm finally getting old, but I'm now getting a sound that I really, really like. Easy on the ear and yet still totally immersive. It's not so much 'push'... more 'pull'.

If any of you get a chance to go over to Paul's place, don't hesitate - you will be rewarded with a sound that I suspect you've never heard before. And if you're willing to take the one-hour or so trip further north to my place, you'd be welcome. But don't expect to be 'taken aback' by anything... other than maybe my hospitality (on a good day).

Mani.

Edit: I forgot to say a big "thank you" to Paul for having me. There aren't many like Paul around (thankfully, perhaps) and I feel privileged to have him as a 'hifi friend'. Wouldn't have anything to do with him otherwise of course... ;-)
502  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: dedicated mains earth on: February 18, 2016, 10:58:50 am
You are the guy that can test this by reinstalling the standard ATX SMPS into your AudioPC.  I can't test it just yet but wheels are in motion for my ATX LPS...I have a custom case being cut this week in which to stuff it all and once that is done I will be able to test the ATX Controller PCB and then all manner of LPS scenarios.

But in the meantime, if you had some spare time, perhaps see if your AudioPC less LPS still performs at the same level.

Hi Anthony, yeah I could do this... and I will when I have time. Certainly with my current setup (both music and audio PCs on same 'dirty' line) I simply don't see the point in having an expensive linear PSU for the audio PC.

But what I will try first is putting the audio PC (with linear PSU) on the 'clean' dedicated audio line. I can't imagine how this could improve the SQ... but I can see how it might make it worse - no matter how good the linear PSU (and I think the Teradak is pretty good), it's still a PC that you've introduced onto the 'clean' line.

Mani.
503  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: dedicated mains earth on: February 18, 2016, 10:53:20 am
Did you ever witness that bloke watching some gag, holding his breath for one tad too long, after that squeezing out the air with a blast ?

swoonswoonswoonswoonswoon

that was me a minute back.

I tried to imagine this, but it got too scary!

Mani.
504  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: dedicated mains earth on: February 18, 2016, 10:23:57 am
Yep, I've been using the Baaske ethernet isolators for years now. Not sure how one would measure their effectiveness though, other than trust the manufacturer.

In the Orelo MkII thread Peter asked:

What was going on that you had that audible noise going on (while it shouldn't) ? I mean, apparently you maybe thought I was kidding or whatever else that made you not believe me, and therefore you didn't attack the problem in the first place (never mentioned it either) ? I now mean : it is quite crucial for me to learn what it was that created this noise. For a next one and helping out ...

Well, I was using a PurePower P2000 'AC regenerator' to power the whole system. This is actually just a glorified UPS that some (e.g. 'Romy the Cat') say imparts an interesting affect on the SQ. I've never been particularly impressed with my unit, which I've had for, I suppose, 5 years or so now. And certainly the Orelo MkIIs are simply too transparent for such a unit - you hear all the cr*p that it emits from its AC outputs. And god only knows what it kicks back out into the AC mains that feeds it.

I now have the following AC setup:

PC System

house AC mains -> PP2000 UPS -> music server -> Baaske isolator -> audio PC

Audio System

dedicated low impedance AC mains line -> 15KVA isolation transformer (with dedicated earth bonded to Neutral output) -> PS Audio P10 AC regenerator -> NOS1a (with Intona USB isolator to audio PC) & Orelo speakers

This setup is totally overkill. It really is. And the ONLY reason I'm doing this is because I spent a fortune on my 15KVA isolation transformer and dedicated earth. If I hadn't, I would not be doing this.

But Peter, I have a question for you: why have the audio PC on the audio ring? Why not have it on the music server ring? The Intona gives galvanic isolation, and now no need to worry about using a linear PSU for the audio PC.

Mani.
505  Ultimate Audio Playback / Orelino / Orelo MKII Loudspeakers / 118dB/W@1m and noise on: February 13, 2016, 10:43:21 pm
One of the things that I've struggled with has been the ambient noise coming through my Orelo speakers. Well I played around with a few things yesterday and managed to get the noise down to barely audible with my ear IN the horn. And the resulting SQ when playing music is totally unbelievable.

Peter and Paul (Scroobius) have been banging on about the importance of reducing noise to an absolute minimum... to improve SQ. I have to say that I now agree with them both 100%. I'm not sure how you'd tackle with less sensitive speakers though, as the noise would already be attenuated to low levels.

In any event, I think I'm only now really hearing what the Orelo speakers are capable of. And I have to say that they are simply the most realistic speakers I've ever heard. But I'll be going to Paul's next week, so may have to amend this. (I still love the 'tone' of the large MBL speakers from the mid-range upwards - the bass is cr*p IMO - but I think the Orelos are more realistic - sort of 'an oil painting vs. a photo' difference).

Mani.
506  Ultimate Audio Playback / XXHighEnd Support / Re: OS preference for Music Server on: February 13, 2016, 10:30:03 pm
Win10 RTM still seems a bit under-developed to me. Loaded it on to my work PC and am having massive problems getting USB 3.0 to work correctly.

Seems it's an incompatibility between the USB 3.0 H/W on my mobo and the currently available W10 drivers (the mobo is a pretty new design). I installed a USB 3.0 PCIe card today and everything works perfectly.

I will now use W10 on my music server because I think it's slicker than W7. Still waiting for the music server mobo to arrive... and the 4x 4TB WD Red Pro HDDs  yes. But the case, CPU and ECC memory are here. I'll post the full details once it's all up and running.

I've decided that I will go all-out with Roon and Tidal on the music server too... along with XXHE to load tracks ready to be played on the audio-PC. Exciting times!

Mani.
507  Ultimate Audio Playback / XXHighEnd Support / Re: OS preference for Music Server on: February 12, 2016, 01:16:37 pm
I've got almost everything here for my music server build (to replace my Synology NAS, which I have to say has worked perfectly for the last 3-4 years). Just thought I'd share my thoughts on which OS to use...

Win10 RTM still seems a bit under-developed to me. Loaded it on to my work PC and am having massive problems getting USB 3.0 to work correctly. And I don't really like 8/8.1. So it's going to be Win7 Ultimate for my music server build.

Mani.
508  Ultimate Audio Playback / XXHighEnd Support / Re: Activate Windows Message on: February 09, 2016, 01:17:57 pm
So this message actually has nothing to do with the dates in BIOS and the OS being too old?

Mani.
509  Ultimate Audio Playback / XXHighEnd Support / Re: Remote Control by Cable? on: February 08, 2016, 09:26:11 am
It's strange that people are having problems with RDC. I use RDC for both my main system and the office system, and I have to say that it has been rock solid since the day I started using it. And it's so convenient.

Getting rid of as many devices and cables connected to the mobo is a big part of the whole OS-in-RAM story. And that includes unnecessary keyboards and monitors (and in my case, graphics card too)...

Mani.
510  Ultimate Audio Playback / Your thoughts about the Sound Quality / Re: RAM-OS Don't Forget the Foundations & What Went Before on: January 28, 2016, 04:05:10 pm
Well, I can't really add anything to what has already been said so eloquently by others (Alain has always come across as a thoughtful guy, but Paul, I never knew you had it in you!). Other than perhaps to say that it's been one hell of a journey to date. I took a look at my first post on this forum eight years back, almost to the day. Nothing interesting to report there. I then took a look at Peter's first post on this forum, less than a year before mine. I think all forum members should read this, so here it is. Enjoy...

Quote
Being busy with the best audio playback always, there came a time when I thought playback with the PC as "transport" means should just be able to beat all.

After some years of thinking about it, February 2005 I bought a (Momitsu) networked player, showing me that indeed better playback quality could be achieved by avoiding the "improper" reading of the CDs as, how I expected that as a reason for improper playback. However, such a networked player, in fact playing from the harddisk somewhere in the network, is very awkward to manipulate when it comes to track selection and all.
Anyway, the sound coming from it, connected to my dedicated audio DAC was better, stronger, more "steady", than what came from my TEAC P1 drive connected to the same (Audio Note) DAC.

July 2005 I bought an external soundcard (Fireface 800) allowing me the passthrough of S/PDIF -with decent reclocking by the soundcard- to the audio DAC. From there on began my struggle for audio playback which could match the quality I was used to, even from the old TEAC situation.

I started with XMPlay, then found Foobar, explicitly searched for all of the others, and none could bring me consistent playback to start with. The quality somehow varied per (ripped) CD and per day, and worse of all, all the players sounded differently.

My support activities over at TheaterTek.com allowed me to meet my now good friend Carlos Rodriguez, who just asked me to perform some tests on the Fireface. This was March 2006.
Carlos is able to instantly hear / judge jitter, and via hundreds of emails I started to learn what he actually hears. A dangerous job by itself, because Carlos justy can't stand jitter, hence gets crazy of some types of it.

It was August 2006 that I (or we) decided that all the existing players just "did" something to the music unknown, and there was one solution to that only : create a player myself. And since I'm into programming, say, all of my life, I did ...

I put myself to the task of creating audio playback software, that would pass on the audio data to the DAC as much 1:1 as possible, *never* touching DSP (digital sound processing) stuff.
Knowing that this would be the way already before, some earlier I bought a non-oversampling DAC, with the theory of that too passing the data far more 1:1 as the more "normal" oversampling DAC (like the Audio Note I had). For the insiders : the oversampling DAC makes a sinus of a square wave (the more oversapling, the more real sinus it gets), while the nos-DAC doesn't change anything to that. My thinking was : never mind the lacking filters, I just jump in because it must be better from the 1:1 theory.

By some coincidence, the nos-DAC I searched the internet for for quite some days, was found to be collected only 20 Km from where I live. It must have been the summer of 2006 where I met my now another good friend Bert Doppenberg, who not only sells that nos-DAC (the TwinDAC+), but who also appeared to be a builder of very fine horn loudspeakers. The greatest coincidence, however, was that he promoted PC playback instead of the boxed CD players, and so far he was the only one I found explicitly promoting that, from an audiophile point of view. Apart from myself, that is.
Of course, many people use the PC for audio playback, but note that here we are talking about "spoiling" all of your finest equipment to a PC playback means ...

For those of you readers who are not experienced to the XXHighend Audio Player ... together with the jitter knowledge or Carlos and the -if I may say- ultra high quality of the horn loudspeakers of Bert ... this is where it all came together;

The speakers of Bert could very well unveil the quality of XXHighEnd as how it was from off Augus 2006. From that point on, if somethings sounds wrongish, we say "it sounds like Foobar" (which is not meant explicitly negative, but for us indicates the type of sound which comes from there, and in fact comes from all the software players although no one is equal).
It all, by means of Berts ears for a great deal, allowed me to improve the quality. From that came, that Bert could better hear how his speakers could be improved, and from that came that we both could hear better that XXHighEnd should be improved. And up till today, this goes on and on ...

A few months back we all started to be in lack of "amplifier quality", with the sidenote of now being able to explicitly judge that it was amps doing it to us. So both Bert and me started to look for the holy grail in the amp world.
Well, to make a very long story short, that ended up by Bert creating himseld his BDCrazyA amp, and I state that the mixture of XXHighend, TwinDAC+ and Orphean/BD15 speakers produce the best music playback of the planet. And I mean, by far.

From off the August 2006 XXHighEnd version it was already the best, and so many times it - and other things were improved hugely. You just cannot imagine what happened. And what it will do to the audio playback world ...
Note that an even *far more* better version exists, not open to the public. I only want to say, we're not done yet.


Lastly in this topic, let me try to express a very - very important phenomenon I discovered along the way;
We all now about room anomalies, or better : how the room can negatively influence good audio playback. This is about reflections and standing waves.
Believe it or not (but better do yes) but if the playback is good to my standards, they do not bother you anymore. Not in the slightest means.
I could say "standing waves are not there anymore", but this is not true because they can still be measured.
While you could think "that is nice", there's something far more important coming from it : this has become a measuring device ! I mean, once you encounter standing waves, something MUST be wrong somewhere. Go and find it, and keep on looking until they are gone.
Now, assuming that your equipment is rather okay (which includes proper impedenance matching as one of the most improtant factors to let things go wrong in this area), try XXHighEnd and compare it to whatever other player and watch this phenomenon ...  evil

Hope you enjoy it !
Peter

To answer your question Peter... yes, we certainly enjoy it!!!

Mani.
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