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586  Ultimate Audio Playback / Playback Tweaks and Source related subjects / Re: Great PC Tweak - A Bert "Must Have" on: January 13, 2014, 11:20:42 am
Yes I agree, but I doubt that the bracket is connected to the ground of the PCIe-USB card, but you never know.

I was thinking about starting a new topic about these upcoming experiments with the USB card to see what (if anything) we need to do to improve noise (in theory - I assume that noise is what makes the difference) from the USB port of the pc.  Maybe you could start the thread off Peter with some reference links to the other threads that have been going in that general direction and then I will chime in with what I am hoping to trial.

Anthony
587  Ultimate Audio Playback / Playback Tweaks and Source related subjects / Re: Great PC Tweak - A Bert "Must Have" on: January 13, 2014, 10:50:09 am
Peter, I've always liked the "Ssss's" from the Silverstone...that was the big difference between it and the PPA card...a more realistic and resolving reproduction of the higher frequencies...and I don't think that I have ever described them as harsh...I think they are a decent step forward. 

For whatever reason, the "Sssss's" are just better with a LPS into the Silverstone, and on that card I don't even know what the LPS powers.  Since I changed the grounding of the external clock board on the PPA card (thanks to Coen), and am powering the external clock on that card with my LPS I am getting an even better result than when I power the Silverstone with the LPS.

To further my experiments in this area, today I ordered a PCIe riser cable so that I can play around with cutting the power and grounds between the PCIe socket and the PCIe-USB card without damaging the cards themselves.  I intend to try the LPS to inject cleaner power into the cards and then if I can get that to work I will try a battery pack with a super low noise linear voltage regulator that I will build for the project.  Who knows where this will go but I hope to learn from all this before I think about messing with USB card clock mods, such as those DEXA clocks, because I want to exhaust every option before resorting to something like that.

On another side issue Peter, today I found a USB Controller Chip that will accept a 48MHz oscillator (480MHz is the USB frequency, so in theory this will be better amplified than a 24MHz crystal).  The chip is a little simpler to implement than the NEC chip on the Silverstone and PPA cards and seems to be used in military hardware.

Cheers,

Anthony
588  Ultimate Audio Playback / Playback Tweaks and Source related subjects / Re: Great PC Tweak - A Bert "Must Have" on: January 13, 2014, 05:07:16 am
I'm using the cable that Peter sent out with the NOS1...USB2 I think.

The ATX LPS is coming along again after the Christmas/New Year break.  We have added some extra flexibility to the design which will cost a few more dollars but should also improve its performance.  I don't know when it will be ready but we are working on it.

Anthony
589  Ultimate Audio Playback / Playback Tweaks and Source related subjects / Re: Great PC Tweak - A Bert "Must Have" on: January 13, 2014, 01:52:45 am
I am not absolutely sure both cards use the same driver (I have never looked) but they both use the same USB Controller Chip family so the drivers that use that chip _should_ be operationally the same.  Plus you can just plug them into w8 and the native usb drivers will work for both cards.

You could try the Silverstone with both drivers (and even no driver) if you like but I doubt that you will hear any difference.

The LPS that I am using is my cheap lab supply and as Peter would say, it helps "get out the Ssss's" and gives an improvement in clarity that is particularly noticeable in the mids and high frequencies.  I have all kinds of hair-brained ideas for removing noise from the the usb link that I will gradually work through because I think that there is a fair bit still to be gained.

Anthony
590  Ultimate Audio Playback / Playback Tweaks and Source related subjects / Re: Great PC Tweak - A Bert "Must Have" on: January 13, 2014, 12:43:01 am
Hi Juan,

I did not install a driver specifically for the Silverstone card because it uses the same NEC USB Controller chip as my PPAstudio card, so there should be no need for a driver change.

Of course there may be a change with a different driver but I seriously doubt it.

Cheers,

Anthony
591  Ultimate Audio Playback / Your thoughts about the Sound Quality / Re: Dexa Clocks & Q5=1 Double Whammy on: January 12, 2014, 03:04:50 am
That is good news Paul.  I have noticed in a past week since 1.186 that USB cards make a significant difference, so I now don't doubt that the DEXA's do something more.

Hopefully we can get to the bottom of why, although I imagine you are reclining in bliss there at the moment and happy to stop searching for a while (I would not blame you).

Cheers,

Anthony
592  Ultimate Audio Playback / Playback Tweaks and Source related subjects / Re: Great PC Tweak - A Bert "Must Have" on: January 11, 2014, 08:21:38 am
Hi Coen,

Thanks for those photos!  They really helped.  This week has seen the Silverstone USB card usurp the PPAcard as the preferred digital deliverer to the NOS1.  Spurred on by Coens experimentation I have taken the soldering iron to my V1 PPA card (Coens is V2) to see what would happen.

Firstly, I desoldered the power-in wires for the clock board (the red and silver twisted pair that run from the Molex to the clock board) and soldered in new wires to the clock board that will connect to a 5V supply (not via the molex plug).  I swapped the PPA card into the music pc did NOT connect the 5V molex, pressed play and....mweh...still not in the same league as the Silverstone...a colouration just as it was before.

Step 2.  I de-soldered the ground wire for the secondary? of the transformer from the clock board and, because the removed capacitor was inaccessible on my V1 card I connected it to the ground wire that originally ran from the molex plug to the clock board, but was now hanging free.  Again I put it in the music pc (without connecting anything to the molex plug) pressed play and...wait a minute...this is much better...on a par with the Silverstone, at least.

Well not quite.  I think that it is better than the Silverstone.  The resolution of the vocals, the cymbals, my-oh-my they are noticeably improved:  flesh, nuance, nice.  Coen, you are onto something here...very nice.

Of course I will do more listening over the coming days to make sure that I like what I hear, but it looks like the PPAcard is back in my good books.

See the photo below for my mods (following Coen of course).  Note the new (heavy) wires onto the yellow clock board and the silver wire from the molex plug connected to ground of the transformer.

Cheers,

Anthony 

[I put in the smaller version of the picture as well because it could be more clear - Peter]
593  Ultimate Audio Playback / Your thoughts about the Sound Quality / Re: SQ of 1.186, best ever! (Again) on: January 10, 2014, 10:53:25 pm
I am most interested in your thoughts here Coen.

Anthony
594  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: "How bit-perfect software can affect sound" on: January 10, 2014, 11:56:37 am
Matan Arazi's Audeeva Conbrio music server certainly looks over the top. Peter you even get a mention in this intervew.

Gas filled aircraft 'black box' to eliminate oxidation and EMI/RFI.  Wow. wacko

Anthony
595  Ultimate Audio Playback / Playback Tweaks and Source related subjects / Re: Great PC Tweak - A Bert "Must Have" on: January 09, 2014, 11:07:56 am
There is a 24MHz crystal near the Molex plug on the Silverstone.  It is only a small clock, similar in size to the ones found on the motherboard.

The Silverstone does seem to have its own general sound Peter, and I find that most interesting because until I had tried it I could not really detect a sound of the PPA card, but in hindsight I was hearing that card in everything.

Looking at that USB PCB schematic I emailed you a couple of weeks ago I think the layout of the Silverstone can be improved (eg. location of clock) plus a fair bit of stuff left off the PCB that we just don't need (such as the low power state circuitry - which we will never need).  Most of what is left after that is for the power supplies (3 voltages) which can be done better.  I am also wondering what can be gained by severing the power from the PCIe bus leaving only the data lines in operation and running on 100% external power.

Anthony
596  Ultimate Audio Playback / Your thoughts about the Sound Quality / Re: SQ of 1.186, best ever! (Again) on: January 09, 2014, 08:50:29 am
Do you mean 'Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome' Peter?  Tina Turner was pretty loud in that one.

My highs are quite good with these settings Peter, which is probably due to the fact that I have not been able to take the LPS off the Silverstone just yet.  Have you tried a LPS into the Silverstone 5V Molnex?

Anthony
597  Ultimate Audio Playback / Your thoughts about the Sound Quality / Re: SQ of 1.186, best ever! (Again) on: January 09, 2014, 07:58:34 am
Hmm ... I planned to post similar ("can someone try 'these' settings ?") after some settings changes yesterday but actually I hear so bad at this moment that I thought to wait for better times. So never mind my settings at this moment.

Ok, let's do this after all.
But first Anthony's settings, because they pretty much (should) resemble the former sound (0.9z-9b);

So, the only thing more special about his settings is the SFS of 0.2 (but they could always work - now far more easy though). So, Anthony has a Q1 of 14x10 and only Q5 set to 5 (Q3,Q4 = 0,0). ClockRes is not all that much important I think, but 1 or 0.5). This should pretty much resemble the old high dynamic sound.

Personally I don't like this for the better and most probably this can be dedicated to the speaker and its speed in the tweeter. Notice though that with this speed more or less lacking it goes the other way around, and the new sound (mainly implied by Q3,4,5 = 1,1,1) may become dull. This is hard to explain but where the new sound excels, is in taking out the high albeit more rough dynamics. This, while the top end of it (highest frequencies) is sustained. This gives it this special flavour of analogue while all the detail is still there (and nowhere to be found on LP - just saying).

In my view, and as far as I have been able to judge it, the settings of my current sig go wrong-ish in the bass; most probably this now needs my ultra-low-going undistorted bass, but not sure. So yesterday I have been looking at the behaviour of the PC and found a quite different setting with as far as I can see better behaviour. And, after dialing that in from pure stupid theory, I sure had the idea this sounded better although noticed through one ear and the other one not on par either. So, maybe not better at all, but for the behaviour I see I'd say Yes.

Try a Q1 x xQ1 of 6x10, Q3,4,5 = 1,1,1, SFS=120 (and ClockRes of 1 might that ever matter).

The behaviour I see from the PC is quite unexpected and I must actually think about how this can happen. However, these settings were dialed in because I wanted some other behaviour to be better and that worked as expected. That UNexpected behaviour makes me think that there's a whole new world to explore with now Q3,4,5 = 1,1,1. So, set one of them to 0 and all is back to about how it all was but with the 1,1,1 we really have to rethink our SFS and also Q1; this is a kind of bonus.

If I heard correctly, the bass is now better again (or maybe even better than ever) and the highs are more profound but not "high dynamic". So generally speaking a more fresh sound without the general nastyness of W8.

If this is all correct then don't ask me how I did it with really one ear only.
Peter


PS: That Q1 and SFS are really arbitrary but they shouldn't be too low. So I wouldn't go lower because of the desired "behaviour effect" and possibly higher settings can even be for the better; the SFS will matter less for higher settings, but Q1 probably much. Keep in mind though that the higher Q1 (x etc.) the less responsive e.g. volume change is.

Sorry to hear you are a bit crook (your ear?).  I hope you pick up that dropped channel soon!

Ok. As you would have seen earlier, today I have compared the PPAstudio card to the Silverstone USB Card (with the Silverstone preferred) and as a result everything has changed.  I now see that there was some sort of colouration happening with the PPA card that when removed change how the various settings in XXHE 1.186 work, or rather make the highs less muted and more prone to harshness, but better overall.

Anyway, I have been playing around with the various recommended settings and I am reasonably sure that I do like the 1.186 settings in your signature more than my previous settings from the beta (finally).  I have also keyed in the 6/10/1/1/1 SFS 120 settings you suggested to try and I _think_ that I prefer them in my short listening session with them so far.  The bass on Daft Punk is just so coherant...I am liking it a lot.

Early days with these settings, but quite promising.

Anthony
598  Ultimate Audio Playback / Playback Tweaks and Source related subjects / Re: Great PC Tweak - A Bert "Must Have" on: January 09, 2014, 05:00:23 am
Sooo, I have recently received my Silverstone USB3 card (the same model that Peter has had great success with - the SST-EC04-P) to compare with my PPAstudio V1 USB card. I finally put it in the XXHE at the beginning of the week to give it some hours and today I have been swapping in and out between them with and without my lab linear psu.

Interesting is all I can say...I prefer the Silverstone card.   More clarity and resolution especially noticeable in mids and highs.  By comparison my PPA card is a little smeared and slow which I can really notice on the strike of a piano key and the presentation of voices.  The most important thing for me though (as Peter would know) is that it seems as though the 'speed' or 'resolution' has improved along with clarity of the presentation.

The next step was to pull out the 5v molex connection from the XXHE SMPS and replace it with a 5v rail from my lab LPS.  Both cards improved along the lines of clarity and presence with a less harsh top end, but the Silverstone was still clearly different and clearly the one that I preferred.  The improvement in top-end resolution with the LPS is very good and the 'twangy' things in particular gained flavour and detail. 

With both the change to the Silverstone card and the LPS powering it seems as though a couple of 'veils' have been lifted which indicates to me that the Silverstone card is less noisy than the PPA card.  What features make it less noisy?  Well I don't know for sure.  It could be that the clock is closer to the speed of the usb clock in the NOS1 (correction calls), or that more care has been taken in the layout of the PCB itself or that less noisy components have been used or all of the above.  It could also be that as Coen has deducted with his V2 PPA card, that my V1 PPA card has grounding issues and that improvement is there for the taking.

Coen, I encourage you to post some photos of the mods to your V2 card so that I might apply them here as well and see if I can corroborate your findings.

Looking at the two usb cards, the layout of components is radically different but the NEC USB controller chips are from the same family (one supports two ports, the other four).  I can't help but think that the Silverstone is simply laid out in a more logical manner and this has something to do with what I hear.

Anthony
599  Ultimate Audio Playback / Phasure NOS1 DAC / Re: USB Clock Upgrade My Experiences (so far) on: January 09, 2014, 01:35:42 am
Hi Peter,

I have been struggling to both comprehend and formulate a reply to your last big post for a while now.  My biggest issue has been getting my head around the many issues that you raise and my beginners perspective on them as well as trying to see the 'whole picture' so to speak.  I have a few questions that might put you on the spot but here goes.


Let's recall what I have always been saying : XXHighEnd is capable of influencing the DAC, and I know of no other means than that it influences the jitter in there (at the clocking out of the D/A chips).
I have also repeatedly been saying that I can not imagine that this is thermal or other noise inside of the PC doing that, hence that we're influencing the noise that travels over the USB cable. Careful, because the sort of fact that I can not imagine this, doesn't make it truth of course.

Could the pc noise also be influencing the analogue output stage of the NOS1 via ground loops (along with the dac clock)?  If my understanding is correct this would most likely show as a distortion rather than as jitter.

So, *everything* influences to begin with (in-DAC I now mean) and the best influencers will be those with a pattern, preferrably at the ms level or maybe somewhat higher. Well, USB transfer is per 1.25ms, so that's a good start. swoon

<snip>

Anyway Anthony, when the noise sneaks into the data as you propose, you're suggesting jitter up to the degree of molested samples (but read missed and repeated) which in itself would imply more jitter than ever can be. This can theoretically be in order, but if so I wouldn't expect a better oscillator to sound better (for the D/A I now mean, so not USB). Btw, this can also be seen the other way around : how can a 200fs oscillator sound so much better than a 1ps one while all "scientific tests" indicate that we won't be able to perceive the difference. But alas.


I can follow this reasoning.  It makes sense.


So, I can not imagine that such a thing is the case (high noise in the digital data) *unless* this is again at the 1ms level which makes it happen once in the 1000 or so (768K) samples). Thus, jitter like 1ps is way more low than 1/768000 which allows for the 1/1000 not to be perceived as jitter but something quite else (higher level distortion);

We then could say that once per 1ms or whatever it is, we have high jitter for a very small fraction of time (something like the slew rate of the electronics) that possibly being so bad that a sample is missed or repeated.
And something like this happening once per 1ms gives a nice flair to the sound. Or practice : Once the 1.25ms USB transfer is visible at the outputs, this is perceived as more bass and blanketed highs. Easy to hear and thus easy to measure while this noise is say 135dB down (but rides on the signal).

hmm ...
Peter



This is where I am lost (I just don't know the theory) but I will take your word for it Peter.  Please don't feel the need to explain it to me.

In trying to make sense of this I have begun to wonder if there is improvement to be made by improving the power supply for the NOS1 USB board.  Is this something that you have trialled Peter?  I ask this because for the ATX LPS project we have some very low noise supplies that would be suitable for the task, and once they are built and tested perhaps I could try one of those.

Regards,

Anthony
600  Ultimate Audio Playback / Your thoughts about the Sound Quality / Re: SQ of 1.186, best ever! (Again) on: January 06, 2014, 10:39:22 am
Yes Peter, 1.186 now sounds similar to the beta I was using before, but probably a touch better if anything (difficult to tell).  I am still amazed at how the sound can change with the press of a few buttons in XXHE...that is mad. wacko
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