Peter hi,

I am on the way up to London now so a more detailed response to come.

A couple of points for now, my PE is a dedicated array of ground spikes so not as dependant on the house mains wiring.

I will explain the measurements but remember I have only the most basic fft. Measurement is based on trace amplitude of 50hz hum pickup on an otherwise floating ground plain.

There is scope for some interesting conversations about the theory but try it out and listen, the caveat about milage may vary applies the first possible difference relating to PE is called out above.

Have a think about the way that the ground refferance and the circuit components on the input of the use interface to the nos1 usb codec.
In not saying this it is but if it's about better data transfer then could be something there.

Kind regards,

Nick.

Peter hi,

No problems regards the arrangements within the NOS1. Inside the PC the arrangements are specific to the Chronos and useless to anyone that does not have one, so I will keep those to myself.

I will pm you with the details.

The caveats may hold, mileage may vary but here the sound is great. I think that there may be less of a need to do stuff to the usb card ground 

Best regards,

Nick.

“Hotwire” Drains..

A very exciting post to be making and after some significant time working on this .....

An idea about clock and music data signal integrity has grown from working on my system / Chronos and through pondering on a number of posts that people have been made here.

In part this is about grounding but much better to see it as improving signal integrity as data / clock signals are moved through the PC, over the USB link and within the NOS1a.
A lot of stuff has fed into this:

• The some principles applied to develop my Chronos server. It actually took 6 weeks to package the server whilst maintaining sound quality, well SQ improving in the end but it was far from easy.A lot of time was spent measuring environmental noise to assist the packaging and this and the stuff below was the real kick off point,
  
• This post on EMI and clocks,
  http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2888.msg30456#msg30456
  
• This post (make what you will of this haha),
  http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=3069.msg33264#msg33264
  
• Peters posts on Silverstone Card earth set up and,
  
• Rather too many experiments on USB cards and Hard drives linear ATx and SMPS ATx supplies.
  

The current position here with my systems is that I have put in key positions 3 tuneable grounds within my PC, and 4 of these grounds within my NOS1a. Its satisfying that although they are applied to different systems, (eg 4 clocks, USB Card, USB interface and DAC PCB), they all behave in exactly the same way and very predictably. Each has a very similar sweet spot that can easily be found !

As I said before I am sure this is more digital about signal integrity than lowering analogue noise floor, in fact I would not be surprised if a few DB of analogue noise is sacrificed here in order to improve digital signal transfer !

So sound quality,

These comments have to be seen as relative to the starting position which is with a Chronos and NOS1a, from this position the changes are not subtle, the sound has;

+Silky smooth with a bell like clarity to the presentation,

+Dissociates sound from the speakers

+Very deep and involving sound stage (occupy’s up to 50% of my room on some tracks)

+VERY nice bass (dance music is like being in a club, always a key objective for me)

+“Snap”, “speed” and “rhythm” all superb, real seat of the pants listening with the right music.

A few possible caveats

+I have no measurements to show this but as mentioned its possible that analogue noise might be increased to improve data transfer conditions,

+It could be this it only works in my system. There are some strange things happening at times like the -144db i2s breakthrough sound get here. But I would guess this is very generally applicable and my guess right now is it could remove a lot of the variability you hear between “similar” systems.

+“Mileage may vary” as they say in other systems, the impact may be relate to PE conditions in other systems. But again I would be optimistic that this would work.




Its been a very nice afternoon listening and tuning these “hotwires”, next step is to try to measure their effect  quantitatively and then they need to be tested in another system.

I really am VERY happy with sound here right now. 

Nick.

Peter hi,

The 4930 is a little faster, it could be that.

When I looked at the spec sheets I think there were also some differences in the I/O standards supported it might also be there.

It would be good to get some sense of what is going on, if this is not possible then CPUs might need to be selected like favorite sets of valves , only a bit harder to swop
Regards,

Nick.

Heres somthing that might be of interest. I have had the opportunity to test 2 different CPU models in the same extreamly transparent PC.

The CPUs listened to are Intel 2011 socket types, models 3930k and 4930k.

They sound very noticably different to each other. Both sound good, but the difference is distinct, little like choosing between two good valves in an amp.

The 3930k sounds richer with fuller tone and quite a lot more base strength. Highs are not quite so prominent.

The 4930k sounds more neutral, but lacks a slight amount of bass weight and the tone is cooler. It does time very well with good rhythm.

Both are good and in an ideal world you could use the 3930 to balance a forward sounding system or the 4930 to bring out presence in a laid back system. The question now is why, here there is a difference in spec that might be relevent that I may be possible to test.  Interesting stuff but sort of hard when you think we mostly buy CPUs blind to the "sound" they produce.

Regards,

Nick.

That is some system, those horns ! it even sounds good on YouTube playing through a notebook :-).

Nick.

Peter,

Not a good day yesterday. My personal thanks to those who called for sense. I agree with your decision to remove the Voodoo post Peter, it was getting out of hand fuelled by some  mutual misunderstandings which is never good.
Having reflected carefully I think there are a few points that the you as the forum owner and forum community need to consider.

IMHO the forum has changed end evolved over the years. Initially it was very much a community of interest with your software development at its core. Members feeding back on sound quality and actively shared experiences on all other aspects of the replay chain. Discussions roamed without limitation on third party products (PCs PC components, DACs, preamplifiers, amplifiers, speakers, cables). Some were also posting DIY activity, amps, PC tweaks etc. Leading edge and all focused on progress with respect to sound quality wherever it was to be found (and looking back a few places where it wasn’t to be found haha).

Over the years you have developed you replay chain;  PC, DAC, Active Speakers. Things have changed which is fine and sound quality has certainly move on spectacularly. The forum is now more closely aligned with your products Peter, and this means that member developments and third party products are becoming more difficult to discuss. This is probably inevitable nothing stays the same.
As a side point I want to say that posts made by other people regarding my server have been posted because they feel the need to discuss what the server does. This is their decision to do this no voodoo / marketing intention. My personal view is that I am not surprised they feel that the experience is relevant to the forum community but understand why this feels uncomfortable.  I hope you have noticed that since I said that I would develop the server as a product I have made only 3 or so very short posts on the Chronos despite being personally very excited and wanting to discuss it. If discussion of the Chronos is to be banned then the discussion can more to other forums, it does seem a shame however if this happens, this forum has the reputation of leading the way in terms of innovation and SQ developments.
 
I have no intention of breaching the rules of acceptable conduct here, I recognise that this is your back yard we play in. However as /I mentioned above now that you have a complete replay chain it is becoming difficult to discuss some developments. If rules are not to be broken we need to understand them so it would be very helpful for all members to have a policy stated on posting about potentially completing developments / products.  Other forums out there have rules on this and in some cases operate commercial areas to conduct such discussions.

All this is said with upmost respect and good intentions.

Regards,
Nick.

The NOS Legend 

Fantastic news, really looking forwards to more details as they emerge 

Nick.

Anthony hi,

I think you may be referring to USB clocks ?
When these went to Peters they performed badly on the day. They were declared a failed idea but personally this just raised the question in my mind why / what had happened ? In a very small way, understanding and solving what had happened helped the gestation of the Chronos server, so not a bad outcome.

Interestingly one of my key objectives was to prove that getting the best possible sound from a PC platform did not need a linear supply. The objective has been met, 90+ % of what is available (see Mani’s post for his view  ) stems from the Chronos build. A good SMTP ATx will perform BRILLIENTLY. Add a linear for the last few per cent, but be in absolutely no doubt that the magic comes with the first 90% the Chronos delivers.

I have been working [hard] on it now physically for > 6 months and background research goes back a year or more.

The Chonos is fully ready to ship.

Regards,

Nick.

Peter hi,

We are on the same page.

Vinyl certainly dose not have the measurement potential of Digital and particularly taking your implementation into account !

I would not throw my hat into the "vinyl camp" digital is able to deliver. However, despite the relatively poor technical performance of vinyl, there are some qualities as Joachim points out that it can portray really well and that are extremely difficult realise reliably with digital replay. Frustrating...

What I am up to here does make is possible for digital to perform in this way, there are some horribly broken processes within the PC which absolutely do create the type of sound that Joachim describes. Fix these and things really change in respect to these qualities of sound.

As I mentioned before I was getting to the point of wondering if I needed to spend less time listening to music. I am a strong believer in the ultimate potential of digital playback but the sound was just not as consistently energised and therefore engaging and what I remember with vinyl (I accept that its a long time since I regularly listened to vinyl so need to  beware "rose coloured glass"  )

My regard for the NOS1a and XX software could not be higher. It was looking inside my NOS1a and how right the DAC is that made me realise the problem simply had to be elsewhere. The work on the PC would have been far more difficult without such exceptional components to "listen through" into the PC.

Regards,

Nick.

Christoffe,

I could not agree with you more, for me you have nailed the difference: energy, soundstage, the sense that people are in front of you playing together.

I do not believe that the problem is in the conversion of tracks from analogue to digital. If this is done well then the information is there and the qualities you list can be reproduced. What I am finding is the issue lies with how digital playback happens. Generally it is just not able to recreate the qualities of the sound that you feel are missing (me too).

This was certainly the case here several months ago before my project to "fix the PC as a music server" got going last year. I know now that there are a (high) number of areas in the PC at hardware level that cause this low energy, flat 2D sound stage presentation in digital playback. It was this lack of real energy presentation and "hash" in the music that I could just not settle to in the long term. I have simply spent too many years with the top of kit working on it to get the natural wall of sound experience you refer to. This had to be fixed or I was going to need either a new hobby or a vinyl playback replay chain (with all it many frustrations :-( ).

I had a hunch that these problems are introduced by the digital replay chain not by the ADC of the recordings. What I am listening to here now defiantly supports this. I can say that there is goodness in most digital recordings of analogue masters. Poor analogue recording or poor ADC and the digital replay is poor but if the digital replay system is able to do the re-master justice then the energy, 3D stage with depth etc is there (and in large amounts).

Where things are now.

Well bags of energy, 3d image, deep wall of sound and rhythm. All the good points of digital preserved: detail, control, bass quality, convenience.

I do not have a vinyl replay system these days but I know what happened years ago when I did back to back comparison and it is exactly what you describe. Vinyl had it for me back then. Now if I were to A B my current system with vinyl I am quite sure it would be a different conclusion.

Here at least its not the lack of a pre amp or USB cable type(although I agree these will have an affect), or the quality of the ADC that the matering happened on. Its the PC that kills the sound. And I know where and how it does it  Luckily I no longer feel the need for a new hobby or vinyl rig .... which is great

Kind Regards.

Mani hi,

That's absolutely great news I cannot wait to hear the new setup. I sure have a sweet spot for the speakers, but heard the in room response I can understand the 25db dip, who would have though it was such a profound room related problem.

What a fantastic capability for the Orelino speakers to have and so typical of Peter to be so helpful in fixing the problem with such a great outcome !

Kind regards,

Nick.

Guilty...

Analoguge electrical conditions of the link are important, but have not been the first line of "attack". The approach to setting up the usb link is researched and planned out.

A 50 or 90 ohms transmission line from transmitter chip pin to reciver chip pin is the way I'm going. This has what I think will be the benefit of losing those horrid USB A and B type connectors on the way. Think  differential BNC type or similar for d+ and d- lines, earth and +5 vols are not too important. Of course that means making changes to use BNC at the PCIE card and dac USB connectors, that is fine here but might not be to everyone's tast as its a departure from the standard connections.


Nick.

Paul,
Super to hear, I really understand where your coming from. The sense of "presence" in  the room is a regular occurrence here too but not so much down to bass given my speakers. Bass however is like never before, even my early duos are knocking out the rhythm giving the sense of things in the room (or landing on the house  ). I never thought I would be able to say that with these early duos, but it turns out the speakers were not the problem.

The PC build has come on a simply huge distance since you and Mani visited, you would not recognise the sound, honestly. I'v been investing a huge amount of time and funds developing the server, I'm wating on parts just now to finish what will be the 'reference' level build.


You may need to consider alterations to deal with what Iis coming  haha.

Best regards,

Nick.

I might be up for it Mani,

Cheers,

Nick.