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301  Ultimate Audio Playback / Playback Tweaks and Source related subjects / Re: How to build a silent PC for XXHighEnd on: September 29, 2013, 09:31:54 pm
Hey Nick

Quote
My mobo is a P9X79WS Asus

I thought you had ASRock now?

Paul

Hi Paul,

Your right, the post a page back in this thread was shortly before I changed the board.

Cheers,

Nick.
302  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Hunting for noise on: September 25, 2013, 04:16:39 pm
I can always send you 10 or so with a good discount Nick.

Thanks for the offer  Happy I'll try to keep a steady hand with the soldering iron though haha

Nick.
303  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Hunting for noise on: September 25, 2013, 12:09:15 pm
PS: But editing a post so much later isn't the best idea I think. But no worries.

Peter,

Sorry, I agree it was a late update to the post. I did think about a separate post but I was also keen to make sure that the information was all in one place. In future if a similar situation comes up I will put a short post on the thread to say a change is made and edit the main material.

By way of an update, the USB card tweaks have been auditioned by another individual and I hope to get further subjective feedback soon. Feedback on the effect of the tweaks is the same as my comments about their effect.

I think there is something significant for sound quality here that could be worth a look. I will PM you some pics showing the detailed changes in case you would like to try the tweaks out for yourself (they are reversible and take about an hour to apply). Given the nature of the changes I strongly suspect that 80% of the "benefits" will be available using "normal" capacitors which would be very nice of it turns out to be the case. I would test this myself but I am not keen to stress my USB board with all of the de-soldering and re-soldering as I only have one to work with (or break  unhappy ).

Cheers,

Nick.
304  Ultimate Audio Playback / Playback Tweaks and Source related subjects / Re: PC motherboard upgrade on: September 20, 2013, 09:40:27 pm
Mani hi,

I'm pleased it has worked out so well. im guessing there must be a lot pf delighted XXPC owners using this board too. It been interesting that we have all had the same experience, mobos really do matter it seems.

Good that you had spare memory Dimms to try. Just worth mentioning that here it seems to be better for SQ to only fit 2 Dimms not 4. Its possible just to take two out, the mobo sorts out what is fitted automatically.

It would be great to get together when you get back from your business trip. I would realy value you opinion on the sound of my NOS1 and it would be nice to take a look and listen to at your amps and Swings.

Best,

Nick
305  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Trying to eliminate noise totally on: September 19, 2013, 04:48:23 pm
Peter hi,

I didn't post the suggestion that Mani is getting I2S de-modulation breakthrough until until he mentioned the test tone can be heard at -144db.

Haha. I didn't try any lower with the Sauermanns, but with the quiet channel of the BD amp, I can hear the tone with XX's vol set to -144dB!!!

For me it is proven that this is not Mani's case, just because I saw it coming reading his posts. At least I see it "happening" because of no change in that level occurring anymore from -120dBFS and down. This is where the resolution of the chip stops but the glitching always continues.

From -122db to -144db I also get more or less constant volume of breakthrough but the characteristic of sound "improves" moving from -144db to -122 db as the I2S pulse width modulation effect starts to happen above -144db. What Mani is hearing could could still be either DAC glitch or I2S demodulation. The way to establish if it is I2S demodulation is there is to try playing music with the DAC board turned off. If the sound is still there this really points towards I2S demodulation being involved because with no power on the DAC chips so glitching cannot happen. This is why I asked Mani to try the test with his DAC section off.

(Sound withe the DAC board off will be quieter because the gain of the IV board is also switched off)

Regards,

Nick.

306  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Trying to eliminate noise totally on: September 19, 2013, 12:38:10 am
I've got a 1KHz track recorded at 0dB FS. With the Sauermann monos I can still hear this track over the amp's (white) noise with XX set to -120dB! OK, that's with my ears right next to the 115dB horn.

Haha. I didn't try any lower with the Sauermanns, but with the quiet channel of the BD amp, I can hear the tone with XX's vol set to -144dB!!!

Weirdly, as the attenuation gets very high, the tone starts coming and going. At > -132dB attenuation, it seems to be riding on a 1-2Hz modulation.

Now, I have no idea if XX's vol control is at fault here. Or maybe there's some sort of 'Nick effect' going on - the house is 130 years old, so ghosts can't be ruled out.

Mani.

Mani hi,

That is the breakthrough suspected I2S de modulation noise I get as well. I can hear it with music playing at -144db vol particularly music with a strong beat. I also use a 0db 1khz tone teach for testing. I don't get the modulation that is interesting.

Do you know what the gain is of you Sauremann amps are my bridged gainclones are about 36db IIRC. I wonder if amp gain it important.

Regards,

Nick.

Ps hears another test try playing the music / test signal into the NOS with the NOS turned ON but with switch 2 turned OFF ( eg the DAC board not powered on). Can you hear anything ?
307  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Trying to eliminate noise totally on: September 17, 2013, 04:05:22 pm
Mani hi,

I remember reading superb reviews of the Soul amplifier in HiFi+ a few years ago. Have to say I really liked the ideas behind the amp design, IIRC it has number of very high performance power supplies for vairious roles in the amp.

Definatly on my list of amps to try after a lottery win  Wink

Nick.
308  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Hunting for noise on: September 17, 2013, 01:16:28 am
Peter hi,

Don’t get too hung up on what the “noise” related objective are, these tweaks do aim at noise but they are also aimed at a wider target. In addition to the -144db breakthrough and reduction of noise entering the DAC from the PC but I have always had it in mind to take a detailed look at the NOS1 with a view to seeing if it can be tweaked for an even more enjoyable sound. The hunt for noise in this post and looking at the DAC generally have come together here. My motive is primarily to do this for myself to enjoy but if this can help the community gain more enjoyment I am happy to share findings.

Quote
Too many variables Nick ! I wish it were different !!

So far I have provided no real information on what I have done so proberbly not the best time for this comment due to the absence of information (now addressed below).

Quote
So whatever you come up with, at least to me it can't tell it all because it is not my situation. Nor anyone's else ... This, btw, also includes the being active of one oscillator only, which I dedicate much difference to begin with. Good stuff (for sure), but we all don't have that ...

I understand your point about a common config but remember my perception of SQ change is relative to these “baseline” mods already being in place. If needed I can place the standard NOS clocks that I have back in my NOS for comparison but Paul has spent several hours listening to my system as it currently is and could probably take a view on the recent changes, I think the NOS1 tweaks make a fundamental difference so I don’t think it will be hard to spot the changes at all for Paul.

Quote
In the far (far) end the only thing with real merit is to measure jitter (its characteristics) at the output. And here it stops I'm afraid (I am not able to do that myself).

I agree, the NOS tweaks are all about improving Jitter performance by improving supply rail conditions. Neither of us have the equipment to measure jitter (not many do given the cost of the kit needed), however I’v worked on many devices over the years (USB cards, DACs, CD Players Transports and Audio interfaces etc) almost without exception they have responded to PSU bypass tuning measures used here so I am not especially surprised by what is happening.

Below I have given information / my rational to target the tweeks but I have intentionally not given details of how to apply them to avoid problems with folks getting in to trouble trying to applying them.

So the tweeks to the NOS1 USB board and the DAC board and the rational applied.


The focus has been on selecting locations in the digital processing chain that are likely to benefit from improved power supply. The chain considered consists of USB decoder => FPGA => FPGA => DACs (I am excluding the Anadco in this post). We both are both probably comfortable linking this approach with jitter reduction. There is an element of trial here but it not entirely a “hit and miss” process rather it is based on experience informed by the information you kindly provided.

I guess the starting point has been working out what could be done to address the I2S related noise that we discussed earlier in the this post but also there has been focus on what might help sound quality.

The NOS tweeks and their rational.


Observations

The NOS USB interface has a single regulated 3.2 volt supply to power 5 IC devices which presents a challenge getting a responsive low noise supply to all the important supply pins of the ICs (eg supply pins that power key points in the digital signal train). In the past I’v have experienced improvements in sound quality all the way up to placement of 7 separate shunt supplies to power various rails on just 3 active IC devices within a DAC, probably overkill here, but you get the picture.
There is a total of 570uf of capacitance at the point that the 3.3v PSU connects to the USB board. I think that this large cap may present a relatively “slow” response to transient power demands and will dominate speed that the 3.3v rail reacts.

The level of rail decoupling capacitance on the USB board is on the low side of what I’v seen before on “audio” boards. The board ICs have a dozen or more supply rail pins on the 5 devices these are decoupled by a few caps generally of 4.7uf on the 3.3v rail. The 2.5v and 1.2v regulators have 4.7uf each in their output rails. There are also 100nf decoupling caps on many of the power pins. I guess this is not that unusual but I have found many times that more good quality capacitance in the right places can help significantly.

On the DAC board the FPGA (which receives and distributes the I2S to the DACs) has a an SMD 3.3v regulator, I cannot determine the exact amount of decoupling capacitance on the 3.3v rail as it splits to the FPGA power pins but the physical size of the SMD caps make me think it may not be a lot.

So NOS changes:

USB Board

1)   Remove the 470uf silmic and remain the 100u cap (I know this much capacitance may have been placed here for another purposes)
2)   Place 33uf of capacitance at C1xx which I think may be the point that the USB and FPGA chip rails fork. (Significant)
3)   Place 33uf of additional 3.3v rail bypass capacitance on the supply pin of the quadrant of the FPGA which is programmed to support I2S output processing. (Significant)
4)   Place 33uf of additional 3.3v rail bypass capacitance on the supply pin of the quadrant of the FPGA which processes the Audio oscillator inputs and distributes timing to the rest of the FPGA. (Significant)
5)   Add 33uf of additional bypass capacitance to the outputs of the regulators generating the 2.5v and 1.2v rails.

Only one of the targeted USB board cap placements i had in mind turned out not to improve sound quality and was reversed.

DAC Board

1)   Place 33uf of additional capacitance on the output of the 3.3v regulator that feed the FPGA on the board. This makes a very significant difference to SQ however I intend to tune the value further as I think 33uf is just a little to much in this location. The basis for this is a very slight drop in the remarkable top end sparkle that the USB board changes provide.

EDIT 19/09/2013 I dropped the cap from 33uf to 4,7 then to no additional capacitance. After careful listening the sound is best with no changes to the board here so I would not suggest anything here now.

That’s it….

Quote
First of all, to me it doesn't make much sense to put in Black Gates there. So, why do it in the first place but then with the focus on people not having them around. Thus, I'd say that any el cheapo cap will do the job here.

Regards the capacitors used, I happened to have Black Gates to hand. I do not want to heat stress and damage my PCBs so I do not want to be soldering and re-soldering to SMD pads and components so I went with the best caps I have which were the Black Gates. I have used Black Gates N Types may times for digital component PSU bypassing and got excellent results. I’m familiar with the likely SQ changes the Black Gates will give as they run in.

I really don’t want to get hung up on capacitor brands and types. My view is that the changes in SQ are so profound that I really think just adding the additional capacitance at these locations is likely to be much more important than the brand of cap used. The tweaks also happen to be cheap and relatively simple to implement, that ticks a lot of boxes for me. 

I am very happy for Paul and Mani to come have listen and compare my DAC with these tweaks at mine or in their systems if they are interested. This will give a second opinion on effectiveness of the changes.

Best to get the changes and rational on the table so we can have an informed discussion both knowing the details. Happy to discuss how all this might be addressing jitter but ultimately theory linking PSU noise to jitter spectra and our ability to measure jitter may run out quickly meaning that we may have to listen, trust our ears, and trust experience (uncomfortable though this may be). After all, were the current 4.7uf and 100nf decoupling caps on the USB board selected specifically for their contribution to reproduced sound ? I’m guessing they were more likely selected following recommended values in the Data sheet for the devices / good practice for general decoupling, and since Audio is a niche application for FPGAs and USB decoders etc the recommendations probably do not really conceder what works best in an audio application. Just a thought….

Regards,
Nick

Ps Anadco observations to follow.

EDITS were to grammar and one of the tweaked cap values was given as 3.3 uf not 33 uf as intended.

EDITS 19/09/2013 remove change to DAC board after listening test see above.
309  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Hunting for noise on: September 15, 2013, 10:23:16 pm
Coen hi,

Yes i'm with you,  the cap used are recovered from other old projects where they had been run in. However they have not been used for a year or three so they will need a long bun in again. The nice thing is that hopefully the sound should improve  Happy

Cheers,

Nick.
310  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Hunting for noise on: September 15, 2013, 09:29:54 pm
Hi,

I'v spent the best part of two days this weekend working on the NOS1 USB board with really super results. I am satisfied now with tweaks to this board so this afternoon was spent on the DAC pcb which gave up a really super tweak.  I just need to tune the DAC board tweak a little more and it's done. Did i just say its done  Happy yes, the sound is THAT nice. I'll post on the results when I am comfortable with it all, to be honest it could be now but I know there is a little more to come.

This is all the Anadco card needs to elevate its performance. The caps are 33uf black gate n types. They are possible a little larger than needed but they were to hand and work very well.

Nick.

UPDATE 30.10.13
I have not been able to get the Anadco to equal or exceed the performance of a direct USB connection. See update posted here

http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2640.msg28771#msg28771
311  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Hunting for noise on: September 13, 2013, 09:15:39 am
Nick are you doing your tests with a short fibre connection? and have you done enough yet to determine if the length of the fibre has an effect on SQ?

Paul,

Yes I have a 2m fibre cable now and it think it does help a little. The cable though is a hygene factor compared with the tweeks to the Anadco and the USB interface.

Have sent you a mail.

Regards,

 Nick.
312  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Hunting for noise on: September 13, 2013, 01:55:54 am
Wow... Happy The description that you give about the Adnaco with the modified USB board have me very interested Happy If I was to get it again, is that modification complicated for a non DIYer like me ?

Alain

It's not difficult to tweak the SB3, but please let me do a little more work a/b ing with the standard usb setup and possibly get someone else to take a listen before you invest again. I would like to be absolutely sure the the effects are all good  Happy

Nick
313  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Hunting for noise - starting to treat the NOS on: September 13, 2013, 01:48:32 am
Things are now moving on at a pace now. After having spent a fair while understanding what I think might work to deal with the noise problems, the soldering iron is well and truly out  !  Happy

After a long time working through information that Peter kindly provided I started work on the NOS USB interface this evening. I decided to make the noise tweaks in steps so that I can assess the impact and make sure that sound quality is not negatively impacted. The first set of tweaks are now applied. I have still to check for effect on  breakthrough music being played at software volume setting of -144 db but have had a listen to the results this evening (without burn in of components).

First impressions of sound quality, honestly, OMG WTF just happened ? Its just on a different plain than before.

More work to do over the weekend and then I'll post an interim view of the results both in terms of the effect on the noise problems in my system and the effects of the tweaks to the NOS1 and Anadco on sound quality.

Nick.
314  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Hunting for noise on: September 13, 2013, 12:18:03 am
Alain hi,

I think there are defiantly benefits of isolating the PC ground and noise from the PC carried by the USB signal and sheild cables etc.

I am with you regards the benefits of linear supplies but I'm am sat listening to the Anadco powered by the SMPS wall wart supply and you just would not know  Happy. The key seems to be getting to the hart of the problem on the Anadco board and then the darkness disappears and the music just flows through with no noise from the PC. very very sweet.

Regards,

Nick.

315  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Hunting for noise on: September 12, 2013, 04:21:03 pm
Alain hi,

I also almost returned my SB3 as well  Happy

It would have been interesting if you still had the card to try the small mod on it to see if you had similar results.

The acid test for these ideas I come up with tends to be a trip to Pauls to take a listed. That soon roots out the "good" from the "wanabe" stuff. It will be interesting to see what we find with this when we get chance to get together and listen.

There are some quite exceptional qualities to the music now bit the question will be is it better "overall" as the slightly darker sound was where is fell appart last time. Now I would certainly not describe the sound as dark  Happy

Regards,

Nick.
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