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361  Ultimate Audio Playback / Playback Tweaks and Source related subjects / Re: C1E and E1ST speedstep BIOS on: July 24, 2013, 03:13:33 pm
OffTopic


Thinking about it, I reckon we should organize an XX meet every couple of years or so. The venue would have to meet the following criteria:
- large international airport reasonably close by
- great hifi system
- lots of room in which to mull around
- access to good food & drink
- ???

Oh and a view over a lake or something would be really nice. Hmm... anywhere spring to mind?

Mani.

I like this idea could be fun....
362  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: A Visit to Nicks and a Surprise Finding on: July 24, 2013, 03:10:29 pm
Just a quick update on working out what the difference is between Pauls PC and mine when we tried out both at the weekend.

I had lined up all of the parts to build a "PaulClone PC" ( haha ) but decided to buy the ancillery parts first and try them in my Socket 2011 Asus P9X79WS PC just in case it might be a single item causing the problem in my current PC.

So bought and fitted a new ATx power supply that is the same as Pauls. To say there is a transformation in SQ is an understatment. I will post more later when I have time on what has happened and the general effects on SQ and my noise problems.

For now the NEW ATx supply is a Seasonic SS-400FL2. I read a load of ATx reviews on line as research and indead the Seasonic SS-400FL2 does have very good specs on paper (no tests give traces of wideband noise but ill take a look with my scope).

The OLD ATx supply was a Coursair AX750, it is to be banished to the family office PC as penance unhappy . I know a few people are using these so, assuming that my model did not have a one off problem, this could be of use to other people.

Cheers,

Nick.
363  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: A Visit to Nicks and a Surprise Finding on: July 21, 2013, 11:16:38 pm
Anyway I am getting off topic now - great day hope you fix the speakers!! let me know how you get on.

The tweeter problem was just the speaker cable as suspected so nothing to worry about an no problem to fix.

Cheers,

Nick.
364  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: A Visit to Nicks and a Surprise Finding on: July 21, 2013, 03:29:20 pm
Ah yes the car!!! - that should be for another topic as well what a beast it is I still have a silly grin on my face from the mad ride we had yesterday. Wow ....... Nick described the car as "Mad as a Box of Frogs" all I can say is I agree totally.

Paul

Hi Paul,

It was a pleasure to spend the day with you and Ros and thanks so much for bringing your music components all the way here with you, it's such a help to have try components that are known to perform else where. You very nearly did not get to leave with your PC  Happy

Regards our play in the car, a lot of people don't get too excited by the "race car chic" trim level and kick in the back delivery, preferring something softer  but you seem to appreciate the fun in these things  Wink . It scares me to death when i'm a passenger in it but you never flinched once.

Cheers,

Nick.
365  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Hunting for noise on: July 21, 2013, 12:13:19 am
Peter hi,

>>What's next ?

With the aim of eliminating noise here I was thinking.

Probe the I2S into the 1704s and check data against where I am currently sampling. Also check analogue I2S conditions into the 1704s this gives the full picture dome the the converters just to be complete.

Check the D+ D- analogue conditions of the USB link to see how they look and maybe decode the data but not sure of I'd work out the frame structure (proberaly not that important to do).

Build a field probe to go looking for devices / lines that are emitting the I2S encoded data and where coupling to unwanted areas may be happening.

See the last post to Pedal above on binary encoding I think it may also encode the elecrical I2S line in phase with the music wave form but much better behaviour at wave values in the region of zero than with twos compliment.

-----------

On another subject, Paul and his wife were with us for a very enjoyable day today. Whilst tinkering with my music system we put Paul's PC on the front end of my NOS and SQ was so absolutely brilliant !  I could stop hear with the noise quest it was so good, it was mouth open time for both of us :-). The -144db noise is there as expected and music still sounded better at 8x up sampling still (hence the intent to look at data reaching the 1704s just in case).

I suspect I have a duff PC somehow ! So something else concrete to look into. Right now Paul and I were thinking I should build a PaulClone PC, there is something magical in the sound of Paul's machine both at his house and at mine.

Cheers,

Nick
366  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Hunting for noise on: July 20, 2013, 11:17:37 pm
Wow, hats of to you guys.
I will read the full thread later, but it seems you have made a world discovery!

The i2S is the internal interface/signal format within all integrated CD players, right?

Does this mean that ALL CD-players suffer from this kind of distortion?

Pedal hi,

Yes I2S is a the line standard for sending digitally encoded music. In out case it sends the data to the DAC board of the NOS. The is a data line with in our case twos compliment encoded data being sent. A word select line which triggers 32bit music data chunkes to be sent to left and then right channels and last of all a bit clock which "times" each bit of the 32bit data words.

The NOS is rather more clever than a "normal" DAC in how the data is handeled but essentially I2S is what moves the data towards the DAC chips.

All CD players the use I2S to move data coded in twos compliment binary form will experience the decoding of the audo signal into the electrical conditions of the I2S data line. Depending on a number of factors this may or may not effect the DAC performance (a low res slow speed dac with poor noise floor will probably not suffer  Happy but that is not the NOS).

Some DACs use straight binary encoding rather than twos compliment and will not suffer BUT even these may encode music onto the I2S line, but rather than this happening when the music crosses the zero point as with I2S the straight binary the encoding will happen as music waves get towards minimum (more zero bits sent)  and maximum (more 1 bits sent) music values. This is likely to be much better however as the signal level is in the region of 0db so the encoded noise should be drowned anyway.

When Peter is sweating the last grams of performance for us this is very important stuff.

Cheers Nick.
367  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Loudspeaker Shock Discovery on: July 19, 2013, 08:58:47 pm
Nick - how about mounting a horn on top of the S5's the horn does not actually have to do anything but look nice that way you are happy and much more important Claire is happy.

True marital bliss.

Paul


haha, very good idea  Happy
368  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Hunting for noise on: July 19, 2013, 08:49:05 pm
Peter hi,

Sorry it absolutely not my intension to understate the amount of help and support you have provided. All of the guidance you have given to help me with the noise problems (proberbly 100s of emails :-) ) and the conversations we have had leading up to capturing this view of the I2S data. I decided to look at the I2S bus but without this guidance and your generosity with information and insights these views of I2S would not exist. You know that there is much that you have said to me that is not for discussion  that would immediately demonstrate the depth of your understanding of what happens across the end to end DAC system  Wink

I also agree it is unlikely that others have not seen this demodulation of audio data in action, and I also feel like we reached a goal together in understanding this small element of a DAC operation. I think this will prove useful.

And Nick, might you still have that picture, IIRC the -108dBFS attenuation shows the Pulse Width Modulation at the bit level (or otherwise it was the -124dBFS file). I think what you showed in your post shows something at the audio word level, which does not justify the PWM idea.

One other thing to add from my side :
The zero crossing at -144dBFS (which is what Nick showed) should not be there at all, but is. I dedicate this to something wrong in the USB driver, knowing that XXHighEnd really throws out zeroes only at that level of attenuation. I longer ago saw this in my own analyser too.
This is not important for the whole story but should be solved. Just saying ...

Peter

Interesting about the USB driver convering zeros to ones. The logic analyser can decode USB data so I could try to take a look at what is passed on the d+ d- lines.

Here are the traces that show the PWM effect of the positive binary count and negative binary count (in twos compliment) on each side of the test tone zero point. The zoomed really show the effect nicely.

For folks  looking at the traces, concentrate on the PWM appearance of the brown coloured trace labelled “IS2 2”.


Trace details
Sine Test Tone 1khz 0db
Played in XX at -108db vol
DAC 24bit 88.2khz








Best Nick.

369  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Hunting for noise on: July 19, 2013, 04:53:47 pm
Continued 2 of 2


So a few throughs on this process.   

All DACs that use I2S inputs and twos compliment encoding for input data will encode audio in their I2S data line electrical transmission (some DACs use straight binary encoding and will not suffer). This is not a special condition of the NOS1 although the high data rates used by the NOS seem to complicate matters here in my system. The problem is at its most noticeable when the I2S transmission rate is high (eg when up sampling at 16x) and both 12S lines are active together. Playing at -144db highlights the modulation to the maximum degree but it is always happening as music plays. What I can say is that the amount of breakthrough at -144db that I hear is strongly linked to how good that quality of normal music replay will be in my system. So far I do not understand the coupling of the I2S line to the outputs of the DAC but this is what I have to work on next.

Finally, I must thank Peter who has spend a lot of time exchanging mails with ideas and information about the NOS and the encoding of the I2S lines. We had a very interesting conversation earlier this week using webex to share a number of analyser traces and the conversations are really helping me to plan next steps which will be about controlling PC and DAC noise levels.

Nick.
370  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Hunting for noise on: July 19, 2013, 04:46:06 pm
First finding - How to encode an audio signal in an I2S data stream.

A quick recap

I have been having a problem with my audio system for a year and a half. There are two main symptoms:

1)   General loss of resolution increase in harshness collapsing of sound stage and dynamics when playing at high (16x) up-sampling rates (linked to when 2) is present) and,

2)   When Playing music at a -144db XX volume setting, I can hear a distorted version of the music playing at low levels through my speakers. What is surprising is that the DAC converters and IV section of my DAC can be turned off and yet still this breakthrough music can be heard.

Trying to approach this my thinking was that symptom 1) is quite general and none specific, it could be almost anything causing it so its difficult to test even with my new test equipment on hand.
Point 2 however is quite interesting. Key here is the diagnostic assumption that if I could hear the music breakthrough even with the DAC turned off then something in the digital domain upstream was decode data to an audio frequency music signal. But how was this happening ?

Main suspects were:

1)   Some unintended DAC process in the PC (there are DACs in the PC but there shouldn’t be working …). I decided this was un-likely following a few tests and discussions with Peter.

2)   I have worked on USB to SPDIF interfaces with build in DACs in the past. Might it be that the NOS USB interface has a DAC on board and this is unintended decoding the music data. Peter kindly confirmed that there is no such feature on the NOS1 USB interface, so this was ruled out.

3)   Is the USB stream from PC to DAC somehow modulated by the music signal ? Could possibly be the case but not sure how. If necessary I could can test with my logic analyser

4)   Is the I2S data stream that links the NOS1 USB interface card to the DAC might somehow be modulated by the music signal ? This stream of data is very close electrically to the output of the DAC, there are many reports of I2S being noisy on the net, and there is the possibility of timing problems with I2S signalling so this is where I decided  to start looking.

Peter has been very helpful and we have been sharing ideas and experiences relating to I2S observations over the last weeks. Amongst points Peter raised was that the 1704 DAC chip uses 2’s complement binary data encoding to pass music data over the I2S data stream into the DAC.

When looked into the key here is that bit values and therefore the electrical “on” and “off” values of the I2S data near the zero vale of the musical wave form look very different when they are passed down the I2S data connection.

For example:

0 (dec) = 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 (24bit Binary) so electrically for this music value the I2S data line is “off” at 0 volts to send a 0 value. Likewise positive low values are mostly zeros (offs).

-1 (dec) = 1111 1111 1111 1111 1111 1111 (24bit Binary) so electrically the I2S line is “on” at 3.2 volts to send a -1 value.  Other negative music data values just below 0 are also mostly 1s (ons).

A couple more useful bits of information that turned out to be relevant:

  • I2S data is sent at the logic gate values of the sending and receiving chips so in the case of my interface that’s 0v = an off bit and +3.2volts = an on bit.
  • I estimated the peak to peak voltage amplitude that would be needed at my DAC’s output XLRs to generate the breakthrough music sound level I hear played whilst at the XX volume setting of -144db to be in the rage 100uv to 500uv. (from an estimate that the volume heard is about 50db at 1m, played via 103db/w/m loudspeakers and a 36db amp).


So the I2S carrier of 0-3 volts square wave signals at a carrier frequency (data bit rate) of up to 22mhz per I2S line  and there are two I2S data lines in use within the NOS1. Is seemed possible that the breakthough audio signal of 100-500uv could be coupled to the output of the DAC even with the DAC chips turned off. Now time to look for how an audio frequency signal could be encoded into the electrical conditions of the I2S data lines.

I obtained an 8 channel logic analyser (which decodes I2S data) and a 200Mhz oscilloscope to probe the I2S data lines with music playing at -144db. I was amazed to see the following emerge.

Traces taken with logic analyser.

Key of the trace lines in each picture.
  • Top trace line is one of the two I2S lines in the NOS1 with the software set to decode the music word values being passed to decimal values. Note that that since this is tws compliment data that the music value of -1 is decoded to Dec 1677215 (bin 11111111 11111111 11111111).
  • The next trace line down is the raw I2S data on the NOS interface so low is 0 volts and high on this trace a 3.2v condition.
  • The next line down is the word select clock which changes state every 32 bits word sent on the I2S data lines.
  • And the final  line down is the bit clock signal.

First trace
1 khz test tone recorded at 0db played with XX volume at -144db not upsampled (44.1khz).



This is a close up of what happens when the music wave form values (in this case a sine wave attenuated by -144db) moves from a positive in the wave cycle to a negative part of the wave cycle. Note that when the music wave was above the zero point the wave is attenuated to the binary value of 0, so the electrical state of the I2S line is mostly 0v. However when the sine wave was in the negative cycle the attenuated value never gets to 0 it stays as -1 and due to the two compliment treatment of the I2S data the electrical value of this -1 data is a state of mostly +3.2volts.

I was looking in my system for a misbehaving semiconductor acting like a diode to demodulate the data transmission, but the actual I2S line and Twos Complement state values themselves are creating an electrical state on the I2S data line that corresponds to zero crossing points in the music wave form ! oh boy 

So now lets look at zoomed views of the trace so that you can see a longer duration of the sine wave with more transitions of the music sine tone across the zero value point.






Humm, the electrical condition of the I2S data line is now a good approximation to a square wave at the 1khz frequency of the music sine wave. The square wave has a low value of 0v when the original audio sine wave signal was of a value below zero and a high value of 3.2 volts when the audio value was below zero.

Bloody hell QED  yahoo! the audio signal IS being demodulated into the I2S data transmission voltages.

From here it is a short step. The modulated data (I have looked at many many more measurements including normal music and its facinating watching the demodulation take place, the audio looks like Pulse Code Modulation centred on the zero crossing point as the volume us raised from -144db upwards) is being carried at up to the bit clock frequency on a square wave of approaching 22mhz. This frequency of carrier and its overtones can couple with near by traces / connections power rails etc. I need just 100uv to couple to the DAC outputs and that plays the breakthrough sound – which is what is happening.

Continued in next post
371  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Loudspeaker Shock Discovery on: July 19, 2013, 02:33:15 pm
An absolutely great find Paul. I know that you have been putting in a lot of hard work building THREE sets of transmission line speakers. The finish of each set looks superb in your photos.

I cannot wait to hear your S5TLs when they are finished. Depending on what I hear I think I will be doing dome wood work as well  Happy . My wife will not let me sell the Duos I have (no way...) so I might well end up with two sets of speakers at this rate.

Once again it appears that you don’t have to spend a lot to get first rate sounds. A real credit to Ivan and IPL.

Regards,

Nick.
372  Ultimate Audio Playback / Playback Tweaks and Source related subjects / Re: C1E and E1ST speedstep BIOS on: July 18, 2013, 10:09:58 pm
You are never at home man. Think about a discman or something...



I'm not sure why but I tend to think a lot about my music system and what I want to do with it when I'm sitting waiting in an airport lounge. My latest thinking tends towards getting rid of the last SMPS in the system - the PC supply. It's already fed from its own dedicated 5KVA balanced transformer, but I'm aware that it must still be injecting a load of cr*p into the PE, some of which I'm sure finds it's way into the electronics. For now, the only solution seems to be a low-powered PC running off a linear supply. But this is simply a no-no with XX. Oh well, I suppose I should stop thinking and just wait for Peter to come up with a solution in time. Somehow I think he will...

Cheers, Mani.

Mani hi,

You are touching on a topic that is very current here. I just cannot believe the spectrum of noise im seeing coming from my pc atx supply and mother board. Paul is here on Saturday so I will get some comparative measurements with his pc and NOS.

The best news is that I now have PROOF of how the breakthrough music is being modulated in my system at -144db. After a year and a half of trying to understanding it !! You just will not believe what is happening.

Cheers,

Nick.
373  Ultimate Audio Playback / Playback Tweaks and Source related subjects / Re: C1E and E1ST speedstep BIOS on: July 18, 2013, 02:02:16 pm
Turn off C1E and E1ST speedstep in BIOS settings.

I can´t find E1ST in my Sabertooth Bios, could be instead Intel (R) SpeedStep (TM) Tech?

Regards,
Juan

Juan hi,

Yes E1ST is the SpeedStep setting.

Cheers,

Nick.
374  Ultimate Audio Playback / Playback Tweaks and Source related subjects / C1E and E1ST speedstep BIOS on: July 17, 2013, 10:23:16 pm
Hi,

I have been trying to reduce the noise floor of my PC and DAC, and came across a couple of BIOS settings that have significntly changed my sound quality.

Turn off C1E and E1ST speedstep in BIOS settings. They are both involved with slowing the cpu when there is not much load to save power. Its made a large positive  impact on  SQ.

It may be worth trying. Post back any thoughts.

Cheers,

Nick.

Ps Mani and Brian I think this could be one for you guys if you don't already use the settings.

EDIT just searched the forum and it looks like these settings have been posted on before (I missed it first time around  unhappy ). Anyway this might be a reminder to give the settings a go.
375  Ultimate Audio Playback / Chatter and forum related stuff / Re: Hunting for noise on: July 03, 2013, 12:29:05 am
Now Nick, don't tell me that you didn't try to play music with the DAC section off as a first ?!

(this will be vague to all, sorry)

Peter



Peter hi,

I have not tried that yet although the balanced gainclones are a better in that respect so I am not sure they would perform  Happy

I think I may know what is allowing the break through at -144db volume 16x up sample and the poor SQ to happen. How many times have I said that, haha. The plan is to try to repeat the measurements and check the effect of the ferrites again. If it checks out as before I will drop you a pm, I may need some help  Happy

Regards Nick

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