Hi Peter,

Last nite: everything perfect.

Today: cannot play one track decently (totally NOTHING changed)

This is win7 (no more win .

What happens that I start a track (wav), everything plays fine, a crack sound occurs and about 3500 samples are lost according to the driver panel (kernel/wasapi counter).
Worse, after a while (30 sec) all counters, except the ASIO start running like crazy, sound breaks up, stops and finally the NOS1a is thrown out of the driver panel. This all happens in 10 seconds or so. The driver automatically reconnects to the 1a again and then I can repeat this sequence.

I've rebooted three times now and the problem persists. No matter if I use 1.186 or 9z9e or driver buffersettings.

Help!

regards, Coen

thanks Georg,

Dispite all the mess we can still enjoy music (if everything works)!

regards, Coen

Yep, wrong thread. Indeed it was the GR quote:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/gordon-rankin-says-im-wrong-about-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-cable-sound-20814/#post328624

I will delete the link from the previous post.

regards, Coen

I stubbled upon this thread on CA, especially the tekst in the first post is remarkable:

-link removed see post below-

With these figures you would never expect an USB audio device to be any better than a budget CD player. I think you have to take them with a pinch of salt, but it is all very fragile and provides a basis for audibility of OS/hardware and software through the USB line yet I am not shure how exactly that should impact sound.

Peter joins in at the end and that is the point where it gets interesting (technical) again. Will the NOS1b have an 10G ETN optical interface? Or more interesting: will it sound like WIN 8 (I hope not!  )?

regards, Coen

Why is it not measurable?

Some thoughts and associations:

What I think is problematic with your observations is that the 20Hz in your example is a byproduct of another tone (100Hz+a litllebit of something). So its magnitude will depend on that tone(s) being present, not on legitimate 20Hz tones. No way this can be compensated for with a notch or hump at 20Hz.
Iow the correction would be for the amplitude of real 20Hz tones and not others.

Also we need to establish if the magnitude of the added tones in win 7 is relatively fixed or not: If you always listen at the same level, the correction may just be perfect to correct the byproducts generated at that frequency at that level, but it will not work anymore when playing louder (effective correction becomes to big) or softer (correction becomes to small).
Secondly you really want to know if the unwanted "boost"  is related to the tones themselves or to others in the music. If a byproduct, then different kinds of music would need different corrections. (the modulation will be linked to the general level of the music and as such grow and shrink along with the rest of the spectrum.)

So I really doubt that applying a loud speaker notch for win7 can completely "cure" a boost problem.
Furthermore I think that the boost range is so limited and specific (non-random) that we must think of an analog modulation of the output signal which can be caused by jitter (can we get any lower?), PSU (ultra low noise), grounding (...USB...?) or radiation (...). This modulation can also fog up the rest of the spectrum.

regards, Coen

Check. It would probably have been noticed anyway in the development of the NOS1.

Now something that causes a percieved difference of a few dB's can't be small or can it? To me this is the real audio mystery and allways raises the question:if we cannot measure it, are we measuring the right stuff then?

Now you seem to have got the bass on win7 level, what about the highs? Can you mimic the gray (in your setup) highs of win 7 in win 8? Not that you gain any direct advantage from that. Yet this would be an ultimate test that OS disturbances primarily cause percieved frequency abberations which is much more desirable than a fine detail robbing noise.

Regards, Coen

Hi all,

While we are amidst fact/opinion finding I wondered about the origins of the bass hump in win7. I like to share some thoughts that go left and right on this for those who wonder too.

When we exclude the possibility that nVolts of noise anywhere can cause +2.5dB difference in DAC output, the foremost candidate is the datastream itself. Since the bump is in such a limited frequency range it is IMO impossible that it stems from semi random flipping bits. The phenomenon is therefore a time related issue and then the order of the samples becomes prime suspect.

Now if we have an interface that does not notice dropped (or all 0) or duplicate samples or systematically corrupt samples or swapped samples or whatever sample "error" and this happens at a certain (approximate) interval, then the DACs output will contain a  signal at that frequency. Like in a way noise shaping takes advantage of.

This may seem plausible but:
A for me unexplained factor following the reasoning above is that only the ~90Hz tones seem to be impacted. This should be noticeable on a frequency sweep on the nos1a.
Or are they not alone and do the 90Hz tones show up in any FFT ?!
And what about the hump having the same relative gain for all levels?! I would expect it to be proportional to the "volume" level of the data.
Or what about it not being random at all because otherwise your tracks would have sounded different each time you listen....(or do they...). This consistency points IMHO to software components that repetitively create the same errors.

Another interesting part is how the OS plays a role in all this. Apparently there are differences in the way the OS handles the audio data and maybe there are also differences in interaction between hardware, OS and XX-software. Like a different chipset, #cpu etc requires different drivers with their own influence.
Anyway like Peter said, you may establish a successfull USB transmission, but what is assuring you that the data actually reach the DACs in the intended order? And how sure are we/can we be that the proper data is sent?

Anyway, if we assume that the Hardware and OS together with XX are capable of influencing the extend and frequency of the sample "misbehaviours" then we have an audible and consequent influence on the sound. And also one that is consistent over the same configuration and thus is different for others!

If we in the end cannot find a digital mechanism that causes such a consequent narrow banded anomaly then it must be PC noise still creeping in,   big time.

Thanks for reading so far !

Regards, Coen

Something noteworthy about the hump:

Yesterday I went back to win7 again, and I thought wtf!? A clear emphasis on the mid bass compared to what I was hearing before.

BUT:
Then I noticed that I was still in "normal" OS and rebooted to "minimized" OS. And from there everything turned normal again: the nice win7 sound without a noticeable hump.

regards, Coen

Interesting to know if the driver update solutions also impact sound quality. This is win8 only? I have not experienced any stops after the pagefile/reboot tricks.

Regards, Coen

Hi Peter,

Who'd thought about a midbass bump in win7 accounting for most of the difference in sound. Certainly not me, I had to read your post a couple of times to be certain win7 and 8 weren't reversed. I think win8 is here allready a little on the thick side in de midbass (and yes no feeling/suggestion of abyssal bass like in win7 too) and win7 just a tiny tad too thin...

In the mean time I've been moving some stuff around while listening to the macbook on the NOS1a. A music pc on batteries so to speak with a fantastic dac. I think this concept works dispite os-x not being entirely highendaudio friendly and the common ringing FIR filters you are limited to. Notable was how of lttle influence the enabeling/disabeling of the wifi was in this setup. With my iFi dac there is a great difference (on the headphone). Not shure what this actually means for the difference in windows between OSses, but it is mighty convenient for streaming. Whatever.

Back to the "serious" listening attempts: win8 is as hard to catch as an eel. One step forward and at the same time one step back. The worst thing of all: natural is the one word I wouldn't use for any of the outcomes yet. +2,5dB wouldn't change this either (I think). Bleh.

Regards, Coen

Waiting for a long post!

Regards, Coen

Hi,

Not the driver, just set the button closed to the NOS1 middlepart to off. This has to do with the 4channel trick that is needed for 16x bitrates (on).

Regards, Coen

P.s it is mentioned in the button explanation in the manual

Hi Peter,

Like you say, I consider the mere fact that I percieve clear changes by changing xx settings indicative of something that is not right in my system. Not that it is the cause. Another is the struggle I have with win8 to sound good like most posters on the forum.
Something present or lacking or bloody obvious is escaping me each time .

Now the RDC has allready brought something unexpected, but the pc might very well be still the culprit. It may (not) contain a component that is crucial to the solution. First I aim to get closer to a setup that mimics yours.

Regards, Coen

[mod] updated forume profile with more detailed pc specs.

Thanks Alain,

a small update:

Last evening I managed to connect the computers on the LAN and played some tunes on the win8 music PC from an internal and an external HDD on the "server" PC.

SQ was not very satisfying though. Naturalness: mwah, details/refinement: mwah, instrumental colors: mwah. I know the 1a can do better, much better. It was also VERY sensitive to parameter changes. Changing the core scheme form 2-3 to 1-2 for instance rendered the sound brittle and nervous. On the positive side this indicates tweaking potential but is is not what we would expect from the 1a.
Otoh I still have to scrutinize the smpsses in adjacent rooms that are on the same power circuit and put the USB " isolation" back in place. So on the hardware side of things I have work to do.

All in all another bumpy road with win8 and hopefully not to nowhere.

regards, Coen

FWIW: I briefly connected the 1a to my MacBookPro and played via Audirvana+1.5.10. This sounded very natural and musical, but with a floppy bass and to much echoes. Now, this sound has some crucial elements of my target sound: if we just could add the xxhe bass and realistic macro and micro dynamics...

check!


Thanks,

recap: the running services matter less for the 1a so we can have a better experience without the SQ penalty.

Excellent!

regards, Coen