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 71 
 on: February 23, 2015, 03:56:22 pm 
Started by Scroobius - Last post by christoffe

I will try to find that Elvis and play it tonight. Happy

Hi Peter,

did you listen to the "Fever" track.
I heard it via "WIMP" on my PC (and ordered the CD) and this piece must sound great (with amazing ambience) on your system.

Joachim

 72 
 on: February 23, 2015, 12:29:34 am 
Started by Scroobius - Last post by CoenP
Great post Joachim,

It thoroughly reflects my findings. Unfortunately I never heard a recent Orelo in a proper room.

For now 45 Hz suits me fine no shortage of bass quality and quantity with my tiny low df amp.

Regards, Coen

 73 
 on: February 22, 2015, 05:37:59 pm 
Started by boleary - Last post by boleary
Thanks for the quick reply. Am off to work now --some folks can only be found on weekends-- so will change settings this evening and let you know.

 74 
 on: February 22, 2015, 05:34:18 pm 
Started by Tore - Last post by PeterSt
Hi Henk,

No, correct !

Peter

 75 
 on: February 22, 2015, 05:33:04 pm 
Started by boleary - Last post by PeterSt
Hi Brian,

Use my settings for the NOS1a. Something not right with that as well ?

Regards,
Peter

 76 
 on: February 22, 2015, 05:28:34 pm 
Started by Tore - Last post by hvdh
Peter,

That was exactly what I was hinting at... If you convert all your hdcd files to 24 bit files, you will not have any hdcd files anymore, so the problem is solved....

Or am I missing something here???

Henk

 77 
 on: February 22, 2015, 05:18:07 pm 
Started by boleary - Last post by boleary
With my settings below I get occasional ticks and, toward the end of long tracks --11 minutes or so-- I get long drop outs where sound stops for around 25 seconds and then resumes. This only seems to happen with Hi Res stuff. Is my SFS too low? Settings are below. Thanks.

 78 
 on: February 22, 2015, 09:38:54 am 
Started by Tore - Last post by juanpmar
Hi there Henk - will help, but it's really the issue of XXHighEnd and not being able to play "mixed" Playlists (HDCD and not HDCD encoded).

Regards,
Peter

Yes, exactly that is what also happens here.

Juan

 79 
 on: February 22, 2015, 09:33:27 am 
Started by Scroobius - Last post by PeterSt
Nice Joachim !

And I still think we have something very exceptional at our hands. So apart from some of us being able to interpret every sentence of that quote as a "yeah, but we ...", like I did that myself, I saw this comment in the link you provided :

Quote
Itís interesting that a friend of mine who designed the SEAS Froy 3 kit designed a set of 18″ woofers for them that can be used ported(3Db down at 23 Hz) or closed box(3Db down at 33 Hz). I prefer the dryer bass closed box. My friend prefers the ported box(done with a rarely used for reflex box, Bessel function roll off). And we both agree exactly on what we hear on both setups. The closed box is definitely tighter(which by topology it should be) and more defined. But there is a sense of Ďlifeí with the ported box missing from the closed version.

So, very good that the base text ends with "open baffle", but I don't think the writer anticipates open baffle with some serious SPL and a 19Hz -0dB. And I think this shows emphasized by the quote I just gave. At least to me it does so.
Btw, I must be careful, because the 19Hz counts for the Orelo MKII and since this is Paul's topic who owns the Orelino we'd have to see that his speaker would be 25Hz -0dB and a fairly linear line to 17Hz which is at -9dB. If we now see that the 8Hz difference (25-17) spans 9dB and make that 1dB/Hz then at (25-3) 22Hz the Orelino will be -3dB. However, in comparison that would still be from a ported cabinet with "super distortion" (see the quote I gave).

So what the base text from that blog doesn't pronounce is that this is all about unrecognized distortion while the Orelo MKII as well as the Orelino don't show any audible distortion at all at any frequency (the 3%THD limit for that taken into account). It just rolls off sufficiently so that the distortion never can happen.

Again read that blog text. So what you see in there, and how those "few of us" can read that in between the lines, is that any decent speaker which does the same (about the not lower than 45Hz etc.) will be the better one. And even 45Hz will be very challenging for a cabinetted speaker.

But of course there is no single way that a speaker going to 45Hz only will be comparable with a speaker going to 25Hz (or 22Hz if you like for a -3dB point), let alone one which goes to 19Hz (and a -3dB point at 17Hz), as the Orelo MKII does.
Thus, nice that Elvis shows better on that 45Hz speaker without (too much) distortion, but I bet that Elvis sounds way better on "our" speaker. That is, if those lower frequencies are in there to begin with.

And of course the latter is part of the whole issue (see blog text, where the guy doesn't explicitly recognize it) : when a speaker heavily distorts already at say 45Hz, there will be all kind of distortion products *under* that and those are all false. Thus, play 45Hz and it may show 25Hz and more rubbish, which may sound low and deep etc., but which is false. And the point is and remains : this is very hard to recognize (because so low already) and the only thing we could try to "see" is : is this music ? is this realtity ?

I will try to find that Elvis and play it tonight. Happy
Peter

 80 
 on: February 22, 2015, 12:08:44 am 
Started by Scroobius - Last post by christoffe
Some thoughts about bass found here:

http://dagogo.com/beatnik-pet-peeve-3-way-modern-speakers-play-bass

Very few people like a speaker that has fat, flabby sounding bass. More people nowadays seem to like fast, tight bass with lots of slam. People also seem hung up on how low speakers play bass. There are speakers which can place bass down to the low 20 Hz regions that donít have satisfying bass. There are speakers like any of the LS3/5As that donít make it to 40 Hz but the bass sounds musical, and admittedly not powerful or very full.

The part of my audio journey that has brought me to be thinking about bass has been listening to Wayne Picquetís rebuilt Quad ESL. I hadnít expected them to have some of the most musical bass I have had in my house. When word got out that I had them in, I was surprised how many people wanted to come by to hear them; seems that a lot of people have never heard this legendary speaker. Everyone that came by first commented on how wonderful the bass was. I would tell them they donít go that low and they would reply that they didnít care because the bass sounded more like real instruments. The next thing they commented on was how natural the voices sounded; that I expected.

So all this talk about bass started me thinking about some of the speakers I have reviewed and listened to at audio shows in the last couple of years. A few came to mind: the Burwell & Sons Homage speakers, the big JBL Everest, the incredible sounding RCA LC-1A LS-11 and those wonderful sounding Tannoy Golds mounted in a Jensen Imperial Cabinets turned upside down so that the empty horn part of the cabinet acted as a stand to raise the Tannoy Gold drivers to the right height. Those were in the Pass Labs room at the 2014 California Audio Show.

All of these speakers have several things in common. First, they are all based on or actually are speakers from the mid to late 50s. Second, none of them attempt to play down into the 20s, in fact some donít make it below 45Hz. Third, they all have very large drivers, most of them have 15-inch bass drivers and the Quad ESL bass panels have around 500 square inches for each speaker. Lastly, while they donít all sound the same in the bass they all sound wonderfully musical.

There seems to me to be something fundamentally different in the way these speakers play bass compared to modern speakers with their super dead cabinets and incredible fast, tight and really deep bass. While these speakers sound very impressive their bass just doesnít flow within the performance like these older-design speakers. The bass on these newer speakers is definitely deeper, faster and has more slam, but they just donít have the life in the bass that the more vintage designs do. All of the speakers above have incredible air and harmonics in the bass. You feel the bass. Yes, you feel the bass with the modern speaker as well, but differently. The bass from modern speakers with extremely dead cabinets has a very pistonic sound. To me, real music seldom sounds this way, occasionally rock music does, but it also often sounds purposefully distorted.

Letís use a selection that is a show favorite for showing off bass; the ďFeverĒ cut on Elvis is Back is a favorite demo for the modern speakers designed with really dead cabinets and fast, deep bass. The first time I ever heard this LP was at the last Stereophile Show held in San Francisco. People were standing in line to hear something in the Wilson Audio and VTL room. When my turn came along I went in to see the big Wilson speakers with the biggest tube amps I had ever seen. Elvisí ďFeverĒ was the first cut they played. It was awesome. Everybody wanted to know which Elvis album that was on? I bet this one demo sold a lot of the LPs. The cut started with a standup bass playing left of center. On the Wilsonís that day and on other speakers of this type I have heard over the years the bass simply explodes out of silence; Elvis is just right there in the center of the soundstage, like he was suspended in space; the finger snaps seem to float in space, the snare comes at you fast, tight and appears from different points in the sound stage like watch fireworks at night; and to follow the same thought the bass drum explodes like cannons with shocking slam and speed. While really impressive, I doubt Elvis or his fans ever heard it sound like this live or in the studio.

By contrast on the Quad 57 or the Burwell & Sons, the standup bass is warmer, fuller and sounds much more like a wooden string instrument, on the 57 you can hear and feel the air move from it. On these two speakers Elvis is not so precisely located, he is in the center but the image is a little bigger and not as sharp. On the 57, the voice is much more natural than either of two. The finger snaps still seem odd, I think they were just recorded too close to the mic. On the 57, they sound alright, but they seem to be on the panels. On the Burwell & Sons they come out of the horn and are a little tinny sounding. The snares are very different from the modern, dead cabinet speakers, they are still spaced a little strangely but they sound like snares and not something else and they have air instead of empty space around them. Lastly, the sound of the bass drums is very different. The drum doesnít sound shocking, just big and powerful. On both the 57 and the Burwell & Sons it just sounds more like a drum. Interestingly, the 57 actually move more air on this cut than the Burwell & Sons.

All of these comparisons are interesting, but the only thing that matters is that the Quad 57 and the Burwell & Sons play Elvisí ďFeverĒ more like you would hear it at a performance and the modern speakers with their dead cabinets and deep, deep bass just sound more impressive in areas that arenít part of the musical experience.

I need to say that one of the things I cannot tolerate in an audio system is fat, boomy bass. Still, it seems I prefer a more vintage sound when it comes to bass. With all these speakers, placement and amp selection is absolutely a necessity or they can sound fat and boomy. For example, the only way I could get the Quad 57 to play this kind of bass was by using the incredible Pass Labs XA30.8. Even then the Quads had to be at least 5 feet off the wall behind them to not sound tubby. Still, in the end I find the harmonics, richness, air and weight of the vintage sound to allow music to flow in a more natural way than most top-of-the-line modern speakers, even those costing in the six figure range.

Are there any exceptions to this? Well, open baffled speakers do a pretty good job with bass, the big Maggies do as well, but with both of those we donít have ported, dead boxes trying to play live sounding music. This is all just my own opinion, but thatís what a column is all about after all.

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