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 81 
 on: April 08, 2014, 12:36:42 pm 
Started by PeterSt - Last post by PeterSt

Hey Anthony, looking forward to that !
I suppose there should be some "kick" in anything controlled (without dials) by Paul Klipsch. I didn't know this existed.

Read the Liner Notes with great interest, which maybe deminished somewhat after seeing on the last page that recording to DSD went through a Korg and next was converted to PCM by Saragon.
However, I suspect a poor quality already from that old tape, knowing that my own tape transfers also did not work out (all over lacking highs). But I hope not !!

Best regards and thanks,
Peter

 82 
 on: April 08, 2014, 11:52:23 am 
Started by PeterSt - Last post by acg
Hi Peter,

I find this a very interesting subject and am sending you my go-to drum reference track to see what you think.  If I am understanding what you mean by "sticking sticks" then this track most certainly does not have any of that and although the kick-drum is not a feature of the track I think you may find it interesting.

It is a recording made by Paul Klipsch of the Joe Holland Jazz Quartet in 1955 and recently remastered from the original 15ips 2-track Master tapes.  Apparently it is one of the first stereo recordings produced so I am interested in your opinion Peter...if they got it right almost 60years ago then why don't they get it right now? 

Ok, I know the answer to that but I still like to ask the question. Happy

Let me know what you think.

Regards,

Anthony

EDIT: For those interested I got the album from here.  It is track #11.

 83 
 on: April 08, 2014, 10:49:22 am 
Started by PeterSt - Last post by PeterSt
Now this could be interesting or educational or ... not sure ...


Let me start with telling about the subject, because all is prone to be misinterpreted :
Our latter posts are about good examples of drumming recordings which started by me telling about my own recording which by so infinitely far exceeds everything I ever heard on any album. The subject is not about my superb recording techniques (I know so few about it that I can't destroy recordings, haha) - the subject is also not about a best in the world drum kit - and the subject is also not about how poor recordings on the albums we know are. So, it is only about finding a fine example of a good drumming recording, and while I say I don't know them, "you" may come up with examples, which next I compare with my own self recording.

So nobody should feel miserable about his "for life" example being debunked and we rather scratch our head and think about how things can end up so very poor. Of course it needs you to believe me with my close to 100% resemblance of the real kit.

Let me also tell you that this "review" I quoted from, was from within a subject about compressors and expanders and companders and such and again this album was handed as a best example.
Ehm of what ?

But now we see how difficult talking audio is because at playing the album yesterday I ran into a biggest surprise.
Also, please be with me at comparing with the real thing. So, this is not per se about a better or poor recording, but how it would compare to the real thing which coincidentally can be done these days. So look through these glasses, ok ?



I put up track 1. This did not last for 10 seconds because it was totally bass heavy and nothing to listen to for fun. Next track same thing, but let that play till things got unbearable. Then skipped to the Ron Tutt track, because that should be a better one for drumming ...

Now here's your hint : Ron Tutt is on track 5.

No no no. I just can not get how this can be regarded any good. It really really is nowhere and it is like my ears are stuffed. Way way too much bass heavy and in relation to that no highs. No dynamics.
So what is this ? pump up the basses and now people will perceive a nice kick drum ? Is it now me and the speaker over-expressing this ?
I don't get it.
So, referring to my previous statement "this is not about poor recordings as such", well, it IS. This-is-too-poor-to-listen-to.
bye

Now please (please ?) bear with me, because we need to understand what is happening. It is crucial to get that ...

Remember how I started out yesterday about this ? I told that I recalled that Sheffield Lab was great on the kick drums (throughout their recordings), but otherwise ? maybe not.
This "judgement" was from when I listened through my also great horn speaker with "horned" 1x15" plus subwoofer(s). This thinking was not specifically about this Track/Drum record, but general for their recordings. This one in specific I quoted my own texts from elsewhere yesterday, but this is not very important. What is, is this :

The speakers I now listen to (actually still the subject of this topic) do not stop at 27Hz (or actually long before that) and they don't use blurpy subwoofers which actually don't do a think other than adding punch (when tuned right). So, and I don't want to repeat it all over, but ... these go the most straight to 19Hz. This means that when a mixing engineers feels so happy to give you some additional (illegal !) punch and which JUST a compressor does (with the proper timing), I perceive that as, well ...
That I really could not tell whether I was listening to 3 toms or a kick drum. Now, you may tend to think I am exaggerating things but I really do not. Anyway, might you believe me then now you might understand the "unlistenable" better.
This, while with my previous speaker this was quite all right.

And so I think it can also happen that punch is added in order to let us perceive something like a kick drum better, because it does not anticipate an Orelo MKII much. You will get what I mean here.
So clear : What I perceive can be dead-wrong while you perceive it as very ok.
So done ?

Haha, not quite and this is about Ron Tutt being on track 5;

Where I drew my quotes from (compression etc. subject elsewhere), it was about the XRCD whatever version which was advised to me. Well, that went unnoticed back at the time, but yesterday I found I had another version. A "normal" one. Here Ron Tutt is on track 3.

Can I tell you that this normal version is only 11dB less compressed ? Now THAT makes a difference, I can tell you.

Nothing is bass heavy on this version and now attacks on the cymbals are audible which were completely lacking on the XRCD. Now it suddenly is a quite better reference.
It remains a dead thing again, and it is my guess that people who record drums do that especially in a deadened room.
The representation of the cymbals is still nowhere, but at least now it is listenable. But now the stupid thing :
No way it represents the kick drum well. That needs added punch ...

So what also remains is the sound of the sticking sticks, and I think this is compressor behaviour. At least this is how it was explained to me by a recording engineer. What also remains is that all hits sound the same because of it. So, snare, tom of various size or kick drum, it's all hit by the very same (sized) sticky stick. This, while at least the kick drum is hit by a soft "ball" and its attack should sound way more full because of it. But not so on this now better recording.

Watch the very first hit (it's on a tom) of this Ron Tutt track. You can hear the drum kit sing along for a small second and it even needs close listening. I told you, when I do that the tom itself already sounds over 10 seconds. TEN. It does so in reality and it does on the self recording. In this Ron Tutt I only heard this kit playing along at this first hit and for maybe a second and nowhere else in the track.

Can we now to some extend understand the unbelievable difference ? This will be in everything you know. Not only in drums. But at least this is how I call such an explicitly taken drum track "dead".

An also funny thing is, and I already noticed day before yesterday, when you after such an explicit drum recording listen to normal music, they all do better on the drums. I am serious. So STILL some fools are around who think they can improve on recordings and they do well on drums.
Not.

Peter

 84 
 on: April 07, 2014, 04:48:25 pm 
Started by Scroobius - Last post by Scroobius
Looks as though sorted now - the problem was getting the PC to boot in EFI which it now is. I also had to install in one large partition and had to configure partitions after the OS was installed. So far so good.

Cheers

Paul

 85 
 on: April 07, 2014, 03:45:24 pm 
Started by Scroobius - Last post by boleary
Writing too fast. Happy I have two 3tb drives: one running W7 and the other running W8. Each was formatted with the Seagate DiscWizard utility and then I was able to load the OS's, which are able to see/use all 3 tb's respectively.

 86 
 on: April 07, 2014, 03:33:40 pm 
Started by Scroobius - Last post by PeterSt
Quote
with no partition. Hope that makes sense.

scratching

haha

 87 
 on: April 07, 2014, 03:31:25 pm 
Started by Scroobius - Last post by boleary
Not sure I understand your issue Paul. After using the utility and formatting in GTP I was able to load the os (both W7 & 8)on a 3 tb drive which recognized all 3 tb's with no partition. Hope that makes sense.

 88 
 on: April 07, 2014, 02:25:35 pm 
Started by Scroobius - Last post by Scroobius
Thanks Guys  -  As far as I can tell the disc utility allows to set the disc to GPT (I can do that anyway no problem) and if the disc is MBR then it can "trick" the OS into seeing all 4T. Those are not really my problems.

I am sure (as far as I can be) that the PC is booting with UEFI on top of BIOS (and I guess that is the case for most people) - so many of the UEFI features are available but it is not a "proper" fully fledged UEFI boot. For that reason only MBR discs can be used to load the OS.

It seems that for years Apple have been using UEFI and even at this late stage Microsoft still have not been able to get it sorted out properly.

Cheers

Paul




 89 
 on: April 07, 2014, 01:32:24 pm 
Started by Scroobius - Last post by boleary
Yes, there's a link to a "DiscWizard" utility at the end of the article. It works for W8 though it only discusses W7.

 90 
 on: April 07, 2014, 01:29:32 pm 
Started by Scroobius - Last post by AlainGr
I think this is what Brian mentionned for Seagate ?

http://knowledge.seagate.com/articles/en_US/FAQ/218619en

Alain

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