Re: Help with Kernel Streaming 0.9y-5-01

[boleary]

Still no luck here with 9y--501. With split file size at 12, I crash and get the blue screen with: IRQL_Not_Less_Or_Equal.

[PeterSt]

... which was to be expected.

Do you have a possibility to test this with another PC ? (maybe I already asked this in the other topic; I forgot)

[DannyD]

This version works for my Lynx AES16/Berkeley Audio DAC. I didn't have to do anything more that choose Engine 4 and a different device which was clearly labeled with KS:.   I can hear improved detail in Engine 4 compared Engine 3.  So far I prefer Engine 4 without any upsampling.  To my ear QAP sounds artificial.  The spaciousness is impressive but the vocals lack focus and sound too "creamy". 

[PeterSt]

Dan - good !

It may sound strange to you, but KS is (as put by me at least) not meant to be better for these aspects. It is supposed to work better for the emotional experience. If you don't have that, also fine.

Here, KS clearly isn't better for things like focus or separation. But I like it 10 times better than Engine3 for it.

Otoh ... I never tried whether it is better without Arc Prediction because remember, my DAC is supposed to have just that (it is NOS/Filterless).
And thus ... there's also the aspect of Arc Predition officially not being able to work on OS DACs ... maybe that now comes out at last ?

Thank you very much for sharing. I hope everybody will do that !
Peter

[DannyD]

Peter,

Can you explain what you mean when you say QAP adds to the emotional experience of the music.  It seems to me that you'd have to be describing a coloration that is being added to the sound.  What happened to the pursuit of an Absolute Sound?  I perceive that a coloration is being added with QAP, and it is that coloration that I'm perceiving as a an exageration of spaciousness resulting in vocals that are too diffuse to be natural.  Do you agree?  Maybe this is the way music is supposed to sound, but I've heard some pretty high-end rigs in my day and I've never heard the music I listen to sound the way it does with QAP.  Just my two cents!

Dan

[JohanZ]

Hi Peter,

This version works for my ........ I didn't have to do anything more that choose Engine 4 and a different device which was clearly labeled with KS:.

Also the Audiotrak HD2 works with engine#4 without any errors or messages! Thanks. I need more time to listen to 09y-5-01. I like the sound of engine#3 in 09y-5-00. Greater involvement. All instruments have more authority......

Regards, Johan

[boleary]

It works (see below) but not with the Hiface in either vista or xp. Don't know about sq, yet. Don't know if I can take much more of this........I was gonna go stack wood for the wood stove but I guess I have to smoke another bowl 

[JohanZ]

Also the Audiotrak HD2 works with engine#4 without any errors or messages! 

So far one message "engine#3 has stopped" with engine#4. During playback i hear a very short strange distortion in the sound during playback. e.g. 5 times in a track of 5 minutes.

[Telstar]

Hi Peter,

This version works for my ........ I didn't have to do anything more that choose Engine 4 and a different device which was clearly labeled with KS:.

Also the Audiotrak HD2 works with engine#4 without any errors or messages! Thanks. I need more time to listen to 09y-5-01. I like the sound of engine#3 in 09y-5-00. Greater involvement. All instruments have more authority......

Regards, Johan

Works for me too. On x-fi/enterprise all good. Will check tomorrow on the other pc, but i'm sure it works too.
Finally i can compare the SQ

[PeterSt]

Also the Audiotrak HD2 works with engine#4 without any errors or messages! 

So far one message "engine#3 has stopped" with engine#4. During playback i hear a very short strange distortion in the sound during playback. e.g. 5 times in a track of 5 minutes.

Hi Johan,

I am fairly sure what sound you mean, and I must tell you, I have exactly the same (or had, see below). Also, I will be using the same drivers (sort of), ESI ... It like a kind of short "preep" and it can easily be part of the music when you hear it the first time (a kind of flagiolette from a guitar sound).

For those who have it, I think you can think like this :
Kernel Streaming has its own life and once it is playing there is not much to influence by me (completely different from Engine#3/WASAPI). Not after all what has been "prepared". It is given to the OS, and deep down it is playing. Now :
I play with Appontment Scheme 3 (never tried otherwise, and other settings may make "the" difference), but tonight I got rid of the "preep" at setting Thread Priority to High instead of Real Time (Player Prio is at lowest). At the same time I set my Split File parts at the highest my (2GB) system can bear, which seems to be 215 (notice I play Qaud Arc Prediction). Playing with this a couple of tracks, and I didn't hear the "preep" anymore, but it can be coincidence because it doesn't happen all the time (also : it happens in an internal process when my own code is at rest). Then I switched off my Virtual Memory (swap file), and btw this is when the beforementioned 215 setting applies (230 implies "low memory" messages and I imagined the sound to degrade). With *this* I played 3 hours or so, and never heard a "preep" anymore. Remember, switching off the virtual memory might be unrelated.

In neither case (after highering this File Part setting) I could manage to play a whole album, and it seems (of what I recall) that it is always the last track where a "Ran out of buffer" message shows up in the X3PB log file. So that may be a bug in my code somewhere.

Maybe this helps !
Peter

Edit : PS:

So far one message "engine#3 has stopped" with engine#4.

I know it is a well known obsession, but I hope that message told about Engine#4 has stopped.

[PeterSt]

Peter,

Can you explain what you mean when you say QAP adds to the emotional experience of the music.  It seems to me that you'd have to be describing a coloration that is being added to the sound.  What happened to the pursuit of an Absolute Sound?  I perceive that a coloration is being added with QAP, and it is that coloration that I'm perceiving as a an exageration of spaciousness resulting in vocals that are too diffuse to be natural.  Do you agree?  Maybe this is the way music is supposed to sound, but I've heard some pretty high-end rigs in my day and I've never heard the music I listen to sound the way it does with QAP.  Just my two cents!

Hi Dan,

I must admit that after I posted about this, I realized I had been confusing, because I wasn't quite talking into your subject 100%. So, I mixed up things a bit. So, I wasn't talking about QAP vs not QAP and merely about Engine#4 and its "purpose" (which hadn't been explicit before I heard it the first time). So, I recon QAP is not related to the "emotion" I am trying to feed you with. That is just Engine#4.
Now, if you feel that without QAP it is working better for you, this is perfectly allowed (and forget about my preevious confusing post). This is because QAP was created for NOS/Filterless DACs, and with OS DACs (which always filter) it *should* not workout for the better. It appeared (or appears) though that with Engine#3 for nearly everybody and OS it works better just the same. And, Since Engine#3 and #4 are so totally different sounding, I guess it well can make a difference (using QAP for either Engine).

What I perceive from Engine#4 -and the reason why it "works"- you might call coloration indeed (don't get confused again because I'm starting to be - again); But it is not explicit. It happens because all the instruments get less separated, and a very first thing to notice is a more "standing wave" like sound. Still, this doesn't seem to be so (plus you'd have to know what I mean by this). I prefer to call it more of a mesh (not mess) and the music becomes more a whole of it; The underlaying phenomenon which does this (less separation) seems technically less good, but *is* good for the perception of the music. And surprisingly enough it has a similar effect of two drivers (like bass and mid) not being properly aligned. That too separates, although at a different level.

For many this may be old school stuff, but I only learned the other day what kind of things create the emotion, and I feel it starts to become under my control. Maybe we can create a Q for it, haha.

So Dan, our subjects seem to be the same (if it may be about Engine#4 NOT bringing the absolut sound), but for you it is the difference between QAP and not, while for me it is just comparing #3 and #4. But to keep in mind : I will not be able to judge - or compare for you, because my DAC requires QAP, and it makes it a 100 times better (just because it was designed like that - and for it).

Thank you !
Peter

[PeterSt]

Dan, one more thing ...

I only now realize that you are using a Berkely DAC for this all (you might put your "stuff" in your signature (please));
But do you know you have to use Filter 2 ? (and then QAP)

If you didn't so far, let me know what comes from that !
Peter

[PeterSt]

It works (see below) but not with the Hiface in either vista or xp. Don't know about sq, yet. Don't know if I can take much more of this........I was gonna go stack wood for the wood stove but I guess I have to smoke another bowl 

Haha.
But I have a stupid question : Did you ever try the Hiface with any of the other Core Appointment settings (including None) ?

[boleary]

Tried the Hiface with each core appointment setting this morning. Crashed each time. Really strange that the M-Audio will work but not the Hiface with kernel streaming and, the Hiface was designed specifically for kernel streaming. Must be some kind of incompatability with xx. As I said before it works well with media monkey. So, what next, if anything, in your bag or tricks?

Regarding #4 v #3, using the M-Audio, like Russ, I'm having trouble distinguishing the two (both with 2x arc prediction). Will keep listening. 

Did I say before that my wife thinks I'm nuts and that Peter is increasingly considered a drug pusher in my house? I keep telling her it isn't so and she keeps saying: that's the addiction talking.

[JohanZ]

......but tonight I got rid of the "preep" at setting Thread Priority to High instead of Real Time (Player Prio is at lowest). At the same time I set my Split File parts at the highest my (2GB) system can bear, which seems to be 215   

No solution for me. I have the impression that it give's more problems. Lowering priority, increment Split file parts has no positive effect so far. This morning after a "preep" immediatly "engine#3(4) has stopped" message. This evening again. KS (engine#4) no success so far. Engine#3 works ok.

[PeterSt]

Johan - I enabled the Virtual memory again (it gives too many problems for me otherwise), but still no "preep" heard tonight.

Give it (and me) some time. It can be worked out I think.

[PeterSt]

Must be some kind of incompatability with xx.

Hi - I sent you an email earlier ... I didn't take into account the "24 bit only" (which the Hiface most probably is) for KS yet ...
Not sure whether this will crash your system, but sound (apart from static) can't be coming from this ...

I will try to make something of this (but will not be able to test it myself).
Peter

[Per]

Hi Peter,

Just want to chime in and say that I downloded the 0.9y-5-01 update yeasterday. It was straightforward to choose KS and get Engine 4 running with sound  Excellent sound by the way. Even on my very (very) modest setup I could hear a slight difference but an important one. Voices (and everything else btw) was more emotional - just like you say, Peter. I never got better sound from a computer. Look forward to be able to hook it up to my stereo.... THANKS, you have really done a FANTASTIC job getting everything in place with Kernel Streaming (hundreds / thousands ? of hours) Just for us. Your are my Hero....

Only had two problems

1) Sound stopped with an "Engine 3 stopped / did not start" error about halfway into a playing list (album) Wonder why it said Engine 3 and not 4 (checked that I had actually choosen KS)

2) Turning the volume down / up in a big step more than 30-40 db (sliding the lever XXHE with the mouse) produces an "Out of Memory Exception" error. I have had that error with Engine 3 in earlier versions too.

THANKS again, Peter, for struggling so hard. Please take care, too.

Per

[Calibrator]

Your are my Hero....

haha ... don't trip over your cape Peter 

Cheers,

Russ

[Calibrator]

1) Sound stopped with an "Engine 3 stopped / did not start" error about halfway into a playing list (album) Wonder why it said Engine 3 and not 4 (checked that I had actually choosen KS)

I get quite a few of the Engine stopped messages ( using KS ) if I do much else on the PC other than just let it play. It is not as robust currently in that regard compared to Engine#3.

Per ... that message about seeing Engine#3 mentioned rather than Engine#4 when you expect it is normal. Engine#4 is embedded within the Engine#3 file and the system doesn't know any better.

Cheers,

Russ

[Per]

I get quite a few of the Engine stopped messages ( using KS ) if I do much else on the PC other than just let it play. It is not as robust currently in that regard compared to Engine#3.

Per ... that message about seeing Engine#3 mentioned rather than Engine#4 when you expect it is normal. Engine#4 is embedded within the Engine#3 file and the system doesn't know any better.

Thank you very much for the explanation on both of my questions, Russ.

Per

[Edit] I have not tweaked my Vista yet and MS Security Essential is still running even though I have shut down Realtime file monitoring in order to get XXHE running - so a lot of resident software, services and other garbage are still running even when I do not touch the PC. Thanks again for your kind help.

[PeterSt]

Hi Per,

1) Sound stopped with an "Engine 3 stopped / did not start" error about halfway into a playing list (album) Wonder why it said Engine 3 and not 4 (checked that I had actually choosen KS)

I seem to have definetely solved this (the stopping). Will put it up tonight.
The mentioning of the wrong Engine name is a matter of going through the program and make it adaptive to what it really is (how could I know that I would be using the same program for another means.

2) Turning the volume down / up in a big step more than 30-40 db (sliding the lever XXHE with the mouse) produces an "Out of Memory Exception" error. I have had that error with Engine 3 in earlier versions too.

Indeed I saw this behaviour the other day (with Engine#4 anyway), and I am not quite sure yet what causes it. Oh, it is clear by itself (some additional memory is needed), but the process really adding up the memory should free it, and it doesn't. It sure has my attention. Things in the basis have already changed, and if all is right you will be using less memory to begin with (Engine#4 only). So, it may just avoid the out of memory. And otherwise : lower the Split File parameter ... this really makes a difference.

Peter

[Per]

...And otherwise : lower the Split File parameter ... this really makes a difference.

I will try that. Thanks a lot.

Per

[boleary]

Twice today XX would not change tracks; instead I just got static. Am leaving now for road trip and won't be back till Thursday to test again. Using Engine 4. See ya later!

[JoaquinM]

Hi everybody,


I am trying to try the new 9.5, but so far no success. First a little introduction: I use a DAC Magic fed via USB. I tend to avoid using the sound card (SoundMax), as it resamples to 48khz. So far (up to 9.4y) I have been using the C-Media USB audio device that works with the Dac-Magic. It sounds very good using Engine 1.

Now about the new 9.5. With version 00 no KS device appeared, so I decided to wait. Now with 01 I am offered 2 paths:
KS: SoundMax Digital Audio >> #wave
KS: Dispositivo de audio USB >> #global

The first (SoundMax) does indeed work, through SPDIF, but I´d prefer to avoid it (I don´t want the card to resample to 48khz, you know). Besides, SPDIF has continous dropouts. The second option (USB), the one I am obviously interested, simply doesn´t produce sound. The player seems to work fine, you see how the time register advances to the right, but no sound is produced. What to do?

9.4y keeps working fine with "C-Media USB Headphone Set" audio device.

[manisandher]

Apart from the KS device showing in the device selection box, 0.9y-5-01 works in exactly the same way as 0.9y-5-00 for me.

@ Attended:
I get about 10 secs of sound, and then nothing at all for a while. The length of the silence depends on the split file size - the smaller this is, the shorter the length of the silence before music resumes for another 10 secs or so. If split file size is reduced to 12MB, then there is no silence, but I get 'jumping' instead, like a badly scratched record. In this respect, 0.9y-5-01 really does sound analogue
BTW, DPC shows latency going crazy.

@ Unattended:
Does not play. XXHE just comes back, as though I've pressed alt-X.

I think all of this is to do with my Weiss firewire driver. I get the exact same behaviour on two totally different machines*. Also, my CPU load goes up considerably once the Weiss is switched on. Changing the 1394 host controller driver can change things dramatically - with the 'official' TI driver, I get CPU oscillating periodically going from nearly 0% to nearly 100%, with nothing playing. The best behaved seems to be the 'legacy' driver.

* Engine#4 plays (in the way described above) on both machines. Engine#3 only plays on my regular machine (with a TI 1394 chip) - but this is to be expected as the Weiss is incompatible with the 1394 chip (Ricoh) on the other machine - although Engine#4 'works' on this incompatible machine

Any ideas Peter, or should I look to getting another interface? (I hope not, but I sure would like to get Engine#4 running properly.)

Mani.

[Robin Hood]

I've had enough trials and tribulations for the day.  I believe I am able to get 0.9-y501 with Engine4 to play under Vista with my Juli@ card.  It runs with no errors and no sound but I believe that's because I have not connected my interconnects to the analog outputs on the card.  I assume that the device KS: Juli@ Audio >> # esi_wave1 is for the analog outputs.  If not someone please tell me what this device refers to.

Engine3 in 0.9-y501 under Vista with my Juli@ works fine and I have sound through my usual Juli@ digital outputs.

Version 0.9-y501 also provided the perfect visual interface on my XP computer with a Lynx AES16 (identical to that on Vista), but that setup does not work and I am getting a runtime error for the XXEngine3.exe file even though I have selected Engine4.

With the earlier versions of XXHE, 09-y4 and before, I get music but the visual interface is messed up with no way to adjust the overlapping windows to reveal the hidden options.  If 0.9-y502 includes Engines 1 and 2 then perhaps I will at least have the lesser sound one can expect with these engines with a perfect visual interface.  Of course what I really want is for Engine4 to work on my XP setup.

[Calibrator]

It runs with no errors and no sound but I believe that's because I have not connected my interconnects to the analog outputs on the card.  I assume that the device KS: Juli@ Audio >> # esi_wave1 is for the analog outputs.  If not someone please tell me what this device refers to.

Engine3 in 0.9-y501 under Vista with my Juli@ works fine and I have sound through my usual Juli@ digital outputs.

Bring up the Juli@ control panel from the system tray. If you are seeing VU meter activity on analogue output you should be right to go after you connect to the RCA output sockets.

My music server is busy at the moment transferring music from reel-to-reel tapes under Vista partition ( where I don't have latest build installed ) so I can't check, but that # esi_wave1 option sounds right from memory.

Russ

[PeterSt]

Will put it up tonight.

Ok, didn't make that, mainly because I found a strange bug when I thought I was finished, and it is not one to just remove because it is in the area of "if it didn't bring static, it should after solving that bug".

I'll try to be back on the other things as soon as possible. But maybe post your X3PB log files by standard. Maybe they don't help (also depending on the problem of course) but otherwise I'm in the blind for sure.

I won't be in tomorrow before late. Sorry for that.
Peter

[PeterSt]

Allright, I put it up anyway. But always start playback at the beginning of a track. Pause-Play is a no-go just the same.

This version won't let play devices which didn't play before, but the X3PB log file may show me important information.
Peter

[jkeny]

Hi peter,
I just downloaded & tried this with my HiFace - the good news is that it recognises the HiFace - te bad news is that it fialed to write to pin during initialisation. I tried it with settings at 24bit/192 & 32bit/192. Same error in both cases.

[Robin Hood]

Thanks Calibrator

[/quote]

Bring up the Juli@ control panel from the system tray. If you are seeing VU meter activity on analogue output you should be right to go after you connect to the RCA output sockets.

[/quote]

The whales be singing. 

But why do I want to do this?  I am under the belief that using the Juli@ to feed an external DAC is sonically superior than having the Juli@ do the D/A inside the computer.  And with all the Juli@ capabilities like Direct Wire that I don't understand won't I ever get digital out of the Juli@ with Engine4 like I can with Engine3?

[Calibrator]

And with all the Juli@ capabilities like Direct Wire that I don't understand won't I ever get digital out of the Juli@ with Engine4 like I can with Engine3?

Have you seen this post .... http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=1063.msg9015#msg9015

Contains some old drivers that Peter found after some digging that works under Win7 to give digital output via Engine#4.

Not tried it under Vista yet though so you can be the guinea pig if that's the OS you use.

The subject of analogue vs digital is something you can experiment with. If you have an external DAC of better quality than what is onboard the Juli@ then it is likely a better choice to go the SPDIF route. If not, then analogue will likely give better results. Like most things audio, the individual needs to try all options.

Have fun experimenting,

Russ

[JoaquinM]

This is what I am getting:

Load Thread (1)
Restart
-01
-02
-05
-06
-06a
-06b
-06c
-06d
-07 (Stream Status)
-09
Start KS here
Name wanted  : Dispositivo de audio USB >> #global  Number of KS devices found : 2
Filter found : \\?\pci#ven_1039&dev_7012&subsys_80b01043&rev_a0#3&61aaa01&0&17#{6994ad04-93ef-11d0-a3cc-00a0c9223196}\wave
Name attempt : SoundMAX Digital Audio
Filter found : \\?\usb#vid_0d8c&pid_000c&mi_00#6&3975e3d&0&0000#{6994ad04-93ef-11d0-a3cc-00a0c9223196}\global
Name attempt : Dispositivo de audio USB ** Found ** Failed
No ambiguous devices found.
Device allocated but can't play; Check DAC Settings, applied Sample Rate etc.

This doesn´t make sanse, as I can play perfect through USB to my Dac-Magic with 0.9y-4.

[manisandher]

I'm constantly running out of buffer...

... something my wife's known for ages 

Mani

[PeterSt]

Mani, I think your DAC Needs should be 32, not 24 ...

(no matter with Engine#3 you can use both (or wasn't that you ?)).

[manisandher]

Peter, yes I normally have it set to 24 bits. However, setting it to 32 doesn't seem to make any difference, as far as Engine#4 is concerned. As you said, Engine#3 is happy either way, so I stick with 24.

As you know, I tend to use a laptop (actually both the computers I've tried Engine#4 on so far have been laptops). At some point, I'll try it with the Weiss connected to the TI firewire 400/800 PCI card in my desktop. I think the Weiss is just very particular about the firewire chip - certainly, it doesn't work with some/many of them.

But do you know what might be causing my buffer issues with Engine#4... and why I don't have any with Engine#3?

Mani.

[bernharddiner]

also running out of buffer, in attended and unattended, but in unattended even faster

after the update to the #02 the sound does not come back as before

split file size at 12MB

thanks

[PeterSt]

after the update to the #02 the sound does not come back as before

Sorry for a possible stupid question, but what do you mean by this ?


And what happens when you set the Split File size to 60 or so ?
(the point here is, I have in mind the lower limit of 12MB can't work with Engine#4, but I currently forgot why).

[PeterSt]

This doesn´t make sanse, as I can play perfect through USB to my Dac-Magic with 0.9y-4.

Hi Joaquin,

It doesn't make sense to me either, unless you are using the setting "DAC Needs" 24 bits (for 0.9y-4 at least). So, do you ?

This not assumed, I guess I need to build in some more log data to find out what is going on. But by now it sure starts to look like USB is not working for most of you. On this matter, please let know your system (and maybe better put it in your signature so it allows me to compare easily with others), also knowing that USB wasn't supported by KS forever. So, I have the feeling that something must be added in order to let USB work properly. But what ?

Thanks,
Peter

[boleary]

Haven't tested the last update, but with 9y-5.01 kernel streaming works perfectly with my M-Audio usb device. The Hiface, however, does not.

[jkeny]

Haven't tested the last update, but with 9y-5.01 kernel streaming works perfectly with my M-Audio usb device. The Hiface, however, does not.

But is the HiFace being recognised properly now as in my log printout above?

[JoaquinM]

It doesn't make sense to me either, unless you are using the setting "DAC Needs" 24 bits (for 0.9y-4 at least). So, do you ?

No, I´m not. I have set my DAC as 16-44.1... And I 24 or 32 bits options are greyed our for me. (may be it´s because I use Engine 1 with 0.9y-4?).

[PeterSt]

Joachin, that is because a "DAC Is" 16 bits never can need 32 or 24. So that is normal.

[PeterSt]

Haven't tested the last update, but with 9y-5.01 kernel streaming works perfectly with my M-Audio usb device. The Hiface, however, does not.

But is the HiFace being recognised properly now as in my log printout above?

Yes, but it doesn't say all for two reasons (I know by now) :

1.
I expect the HiFace to be a "DAC Needs" 24 bits device, while Engine#4 isn't prepared for that currently (in the area this has to be created this is relatively complex plus I have no "24 bit only" device to test it with -> no solution as long as that situation remains);

2.
There is something with USB which is "different", and I'm not sure what it is yet. A few minutes ago I tested an USB DAC, and while everything looks good, it just doesn't produce sound. It is my estimation that when I solved this, chances for other USB devices will be a lot higher. I am working on at least this right now !

Peter

[manisandher]

Peter, the USB boys can wait... focus on getting the Weiss firewire interfaces working first

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Haha Mani - From your description I think I can see the problem with the Weiss may be similar, hence requires a smilar solution.

That solution though requires a quite different setup of, well, all, and I'm not sure it can be done fast (everything and all can fail again on the same subjects which were just solved here). But ... I think I will do as follows :

It is relatively easy to create a kind of laboratory setup, which will allow you to play a first "file part" which is allowed to be relatively large (think of a setting of 200MB). If that works (my own USB ahead), you (all) can test that. If that works I'll know what to do, plus I'll know it's worth the effort.

I estimate this laboratory setup won't be ready today, but it will tomorrow *if* it solves things for my USB here (but I think it will).
So, more later.
Peter

[manisandher]

Hey Peter, as always, your efforts are much appreciated.

But quite honestly, I love the sound I'm currently getting from 0.9y-5 with Engine#3. However, this is only the case when I'm running my laptop on battery power. The difference between batttery and AC is just huge... the former I love, the latter I just can't listen to. The master clock is in the DAC, the firewire interface has it's own power and yet how the laptop is powered still matters...

On another point, I think you may have over-done the attenuation with AP. Playing a 0dB FS 1KHz sine wave, I'm getting a reading of -3dB on my machine. I know this won't have any reconstucted peaks, but I'm not getting above -3dB with any type of music either. Of course, maybe my meters aren't 'sensitive' enough to register a limited number of samples above -3dB...

Are you sure you're attenuating by 1.5dB and not 3dB?

In any event, QAP sounds phenomenal, so my worries about digital attenuation in this case seem to have proved wrong.

Mani.

[jkeny]

Hey Peter, as always, your efforts are much appreciated.

But quite honestly, I love the sound I'm currently getting from 0.9y-5 with Engine#3. However, this is only the case when I'm running my laptop on battery power. The difference between batttery and AC is just huge... the former I love, the latter I just can't listen to. The master clock is in the DAC, the firewire interface has it's own power and yet how the laptop is powered still matters...
..........................
Mani.

Mani, what you are describing sounds like dirty ground from the laptop contaminating the ground of your DACs. Three ways to deal with this
- You could disconnect the earth pin in your laptop's plug so no earth connection when connected to grid. This would probably be frowned upon by electrical engineers, but it works - I have been using this set-up for a long time. This is not a complete solution - for that you need galvanic isolation (see below)
- Always run your laptop on batteries
- use some form of galvanic isolation - unfortunately this probably requires some DIY. This is where your signal lines from your laptop to DAC are physically interrupted by an device which allows the AC signal through but stops any DC signal.

[boleary]

Guess I spoke too soon. With both 9y-5.01 and 9y-5.02, kernel streaming, I have had the horrific hiss occur when one track ended and the next began. Both times I had 2x arc prediction selected. Attached is the log file for 9y-5.02.

Regarding the Hiface, John and Peter, the two times that it "worked" for me, xx played but there was no sound, I had "24 bit only" selected. This was when I renamed a device with the initial release of 9y-05. I couldn't get it to repeat this with 9y-5.01, just got crashes. I haven't tried the hiface with 9y-5.02.

Here's a proposal, Peter. Email me your address and I'll ship my hiface to you so you have a 24 bit only device to sort these issues out. I'll pay shipping to and fro, and I won't complain (out loud   )regarding how long it takes. Once its sorted out you can devote all your time to Mani and the Weiss issues he's having!  

I'm serious, Peter, but I also understand if thats not a route you want to take.

[PeterSt]

Dear Mani,

It wouldn't be the first time that you's prooven me something is wrong by means of some simple measurement, so I guess the last time is yet to come. It would proove why at least one other person (sorry I forgot who it was) complained about the huge difference in level between Arc Predition and without. So yes, it would be very easy for me to make the mistake which is because by now everything runs through the "replay gain" and the things you see are not what they are (in the program that is).

It is obvious that right now I'm not near the program, so I can't look. But, when you switch off QAP and use Anti Imaging instead, is the level 3dB higher then ? If so, you *must* be right, but if 1.5dB only something else is going on. And to keep in mind (and you implied it yourself) : I don't think peaks at -1,5dB will be measured so. Not only because of too few samples forming the peaks, but merely because you can be measuring SPL-like (hence/or RMS).

But never mind, it's fairly easy to find out once I know it can be wrong. Will let you know.
Peter

[boleary]

This morning, with 2x arc prediction and kernel streaming, the first time one track ended and the next was to begin, I had the hissing explosion occur. I have switched off 2x and have played eight tracks in a row with no problem. Is it possible that kernel streaming doesn't like arc prediction?

[manisandher]

... when you switch off QAP and use Anti Imaging instead, is the level 3dB higher then ?

Things are a bit stranger than I originally thought.

I'm measuring -1dB for the 0dB signal! This is true for XXHE no upsample and with QAA. (Just to make sure, I checked with Foobar, and am getting the same result.)

So, three possibilities:
1. the test tone is not 0dB (I doubt it)
2. there's some attenuation happening in my computer (I doubt it - HDCD would not be recognized by my DAC if this were the case)
3. the meters on my PM Model Two need re-setting/re-calibrating

In any event, for the 1KHz 0dB sine wave; with AA, I'm getting -1dB; with AP, I'm getting -3dB.

With music, the difference is greater. Taking something like Whitney Houston's 'Your Love is My Love'; with AA I'm getting 'overs' from the first note; with AP, I'm never getting above -2dB.

What I think we can surmise is that the attenuation is greater than it needs to be. I would say by 2dB.

I can change the sensitivity of my 'over' meters to measure between 0 and 7 successive full scale data words. I'm happy to play around with this if you were to decrease the attenuation.

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Boleary - This is about this I guess (from your log file) :

FL1 : 100000222
FL2 : 100000216

and my earlier remark about "if not currently static emerges, it will after I solve this bug" and "I put it up anyway" (5-02).
So, firstly this never happened to me (static) in two months of time, but what shows is wrong. Ok, I found how to solve it, and this will be in 5-03 and I never put up this solved bug because the static never happened. However, if you look at those two numbers, you'll see that in your case the second number is 6 smaller than the first. And THIS is dead wrong, because it implies a "no sample boundary" which whould be 8. UNLESS you used a "DAC Needs" of 24 (which I don't think you do -> nope, your log file says not), then it would be just right (and the hiss remains unexplained).
Notice that this can be caused by using ripping software which is other than what I use and which ... wait ... yep, it's in the log file as well. -> Which uses another data offset in the file opposed to what I always use. For me this would be 44, while for you this is 216 for this particular track.
Not using Double indeed makes a difference, unless you used the digital volume to attenuate, then it won't matter.

Allright, no matter this bug has been solved, I now see that I can build in an additional check for this, and without harm(ing SQ). So I will do that.

About sending me the HiFace ... I am trying to get one from here. I hope to let you know in a couple of hours whether this will work.
Peter

[PeterSt]

Haha Mani - From your description I think I can see the problem with the Weiss may be similar, hence requires a smilar solution.

Mani - What slipped into my mind ... how strange that your AFI1 behaves differently from the DAC2 (which just works). On the other hand, you slave the AFI2 to the PMm2 which may incur for such a strange (unknown) situation that I might not be able to deal with it from theories only.

So come on, send all your soundcards to me, and I will sort it out.


Btw, the whole point is : I am not performing any normal means of Kernel Streaming here. If I had only done that ...
then the sound would have been different, haha

[manisandher]

I thought bernharddiner (with a DAC2) was experiencing the same problem as me, no?

In any event, I've tried all the clock variations, to no avail. I'm pretty certain it's the DICE firewire driver that's to 'blame'. Hopefully, you'll find a solution...

Mani.

[boleary]

Thanks Peter, I very, very much appreciate your efforts.

[PeterSt]

I thought bernharddiner (with a DAC2) was experiencing the same problem as me, no?

You are correct. Sorry.
I guess he got stuck in my mind because of the 6 seonds of music and "I like it way better" (similar). Had to laugh about that really.

[manisandher]

Mani, what you are describing sounds like dirty ground from the laptop contaminating the ground of your DACs.

jkeny,

Thanks for the suggestions - I will try the first, and continue with the second if that fails.

But just to be clear, I cannot hear any obvious noise with AC power, i.e. no buzzing or increased static/hiss. What I do hear though is an added 'shrill' or 'edginess' to virtually everything. It makes it difficult to listen to - almost bringing too much attention to the sound.

FWIW, I really can't imagine how KS could improve upon what I already have (when I'm running from battery). If what I have now was the end-game, I'd be happy!

[EDIT: Is there such a thing as an 'end-game' in this hobby-cum-obsession of ours?]

Mani.

[pedal]

But quite honestly, I love the sound I'm currently getting from 0.9y-5 with Engine#3. However, this is only the case when I'm running my laptop on battery power. The difference between batttery and AC is just huge... the former I love, the latter I just can't listen to. The master clock is in the DAC, the firewire interface has it's own power and yet how the laptop is powered still matters...

John Atkinson/Stereophile reported some so-so measurements from a Benchmark DAC (a 2009 review I think). In respons, in a letter from Benchmark, they showed measurements how the jitter increases 10-fold when a typical laptop is run by it's standard powersupply. Most such power supplies are el-cheapo switchmode types, which generates a hell of a lot distortion.

[manisandher]

Sorry, totally


Pedal, this is really interesting.

I can understand why a DAC connected via adaptive-USB to a laptop would be influenced by a cr*ppy laptop power supply - with adaptive-USB, the clock resides in the laptop, and massive jitter reduction therefore needs to be undertaken in the DAC, usually through ASRC.

This should not be the case in my situation. Daniel Weiss is totally adamant that his firewire products use an isochronous protocol, where the clock sits in the DAC/interface. In my case, I take things further by having the interface slaved to my DAC.

Theoretically, I can't see how packets of data from the laptop to the interface could carry jitter. But it seems it really is there and is clearly audible (if indeed what I'm hearing is caused by jitter).

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Here's a proposal, Peter. Email me your address and I'll ship my hiface to you so you have a 24 bit only device to sort these issues out.

Just in case you have some spare time ... I sent you this email ... a while ago.

[PeterSt]

FWIW, I really can't imagine how KS could improve upon what I already have (when I'm running from battery). If what I have now was the end-game, I'd be happy!

Wait until you listen to something like this. haha

[Telstar]

But just to be clear, I cannot hear any obvious noise with AC power, i.e. no buzzing or increased static/hiss. What I do hear though is an added 'shrill' or 'edginess' to virtually everything. It makes it difficult to listen to - almost bringing too much attention to the sound.

Yes, that is the typical effect of dirty power. The HF is where most problems are heard.

You can diy or buy a filter for the digital components (i.e. the computer).
Or if the laptop battery last long enough for your listening sessions, just plug when you finish listening.

[PeterSt]

I know from reliable sources that Mani's battery lasts exactly 1 minute and 15 seconds.

 

He must have a hard time ...

[manisandher]

My battery life is plenty long enough to hear my 13 seconds of KS glory... before I run out of buffer

Actually, my audio laptop is ancient and the battery is terrible (15-20 minutes). But I've ordered a new battery, and hope to get 1-2 hours out of it at a go. This is enough for my 'serious' listening sessions.

I wonder... what are you 'desktop boys' doing to filter the inevitable noise from your SMPS to your MB?

Mani.

[PeterSt]

At least I don't say that you suffer from is "noise". I dare say though that your (brick etc.) PSU in general is incapable.

But about your question ... I'll let you know this weekend, and whether it makes an audible difference (to my ears).

[AUDIODIDAKT]

But about your question ... I'll let you know this weekend, and whether it makes an audible difference (to my ears).

oh ?
 

[PeterSt]

......but tonight I got rid of the "preep" at setting Thread Priority to High instead of Real Time (Player Prio is at lowest). At the same time I set my Split File parts at the highest my (2GB) system can bear, which seems to be 215   

No solution for me. I have the impression that it give's more problems. Lowering priority, increment Split file parts has no positive effect so far. This morning after a "preep" immediatly "engine#3(4) has stopped" message. This evening again. KS (engine#4) no success so far. Engine#3 works ok.

Hi Johan,

When 0.9y5-03 is up, can you please judge this again ? (I am not sure 0.9y5-02 already solved it, if so at all)
I never heard it back anymore, and I am sure I am (or have been) back to settings where I heard it. But I also changed so many things by now that I can't be sure which "caused" what. So, I'd say it is solved.

Or ?

Peter

[PeterSt]

In any event, for the 1KHz 0dB sine wave; with AA, I'm getting -1dB; with AP, I'm getting -3dB.

With music, the difference is greater. Taking something like Whitney Houston's 'Your Love is My Love'; with AA I'm getting 'overs' from the first note; with AP, I'm never getting above -2dB.

Mani, as usual you are just right !
In the code it says explicitly "-3dB". And, thinking of it, that is exactly what I would want to do. So, I guess in the Release Notes or anything I talked about -1.5dB (??). If so, that sure is wrong ! It is -3dB and it should be like that.

What you see with AA is "normal" (including the overs), because it just s*cks all over (which I can't help, it is by "official" design). The -2dB you see in music with AP should be the "peak extension". Of course I can't check this, but it seems logic to me that AA goes bananas by clipping (hence the track should be (soft) clipping) while AP extends it by 1dB in this case. The level of extension depends on the severeness of the clipping (the wider the (time) area of clipping, the higher it extends).

As always, thanks.
Peter

[boleary]

Replied to your email. Let me know. Thanks.

[boleary]

Got the following error playing 9y-5.03 kernel streaming no upsampling:

[PeterSt]

That was your hiss ... if all is right.
Please post the X3PB and X3 log files about this !

[PeterSt]

Hi all,

I thought to give you an update on what's happening with Engine#4/KS, because you might think it takes somewhat long.

Well, yes it does. It took me 3 whole days to find out what's happening with USB, which appears to be totally different from the other devices which "work". Normally (read : when I'd approach KS how it should) this won't be much of a problem - and I wouldn't even have noticed, but in "our" case it really matters and it appears that all is not much standardized. Also, it seems that for W7 (Vista probably the same) things which should technically work, just don't. Well, KS never has been supported officially, so I guess I just have to deal with that fact (and don't think there's documentation anywhere about this, which includes Google).

Anyway, I now know how to do it, but really doing it still has to be done. This is mostly about finding a way which is compatible for all the devices, which way I -so far- have not found, but I'm sure it exists. I estimate to find it tomorrow (or otherwise it's time to hang myself which seems a better useage of my time then). Next is letting it work in real practice which may go in an hour, or which may take the rest of the week. Let's anticipate the latter.

In either case, don't think I gave up on it.
Peter

[JohanZ]

....can you please judge this again ? (I am not sure 0.9y5-02 already solved it, if so at all) ....... So, I'd say it is solved.
 

Hi Peter,

After a busy period at last time to listen to 0.9y5-02 and 03. In version 0.9y5-02 i had some small interruptions in the sound. Version 0.9y5-03 solves the small interruptions in the sound, thanks your tips to change some settings in XX and the Soundcard  Latency at maximum (1024 audiotrak hd2), Splitfile = 150,Treadprio =High.
One thing i hear during playback is a sort of soft static click between the tracks. Not frequently, but sometimes i hear a small distortion in the sound.

Regards, Johan

[PeterSt]

Hi Johan,

Yes, I hear those too. Or maybe I must say heard because it now is "ages" ago I could use Engine#4 because of everything being upside down. But, theoretically it is so, I saw. The boundaries were not "safe" so to say, which is simlilar (or the same) to the "hiss" things etc. for which in 5-02 messages were built in.
The only thing I can say at this moment is that I'll have to put attention to it once everything is up and running again. Btw, I am very close to that (I'm thinking in hours now ). It has been a pile of work ... crazy.

Thanks for mentioning it,
Peter