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Author Topic: Gentle warning  (Read 6008 times)
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manisandher
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« on: March 02, 2010, 10:50:05 pm »

I suggest that no one uses Quad with 'no upsampling'. I've just measured a pretty consistent -40dB to -50dB level going right beyond 80KHz. I'm assuming this due to aliasing. In any event, it looks pretty nasty, and probably isn't doing your electronics any good, especially if you're using amps with negative feedback.

' Quad Linear Interpolation' doesn't look too good either (but much better than 'no upsampling').

I can't get 'Quad Anti Imaging' to work right now, but I suspect it'd be fine.

'Quad Arc Prediction' looks very good, of course Happy

Mani.
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Audio PC: Phasure Mach II / Win 14393.0 on RAM-OS / controlled by RDC, no GPU card installed / connected directly to music server
XXHighEnd: 2.09 / Minimize OS / Engine#4 Adaptive / DB=4096 / *testing*: Q1=30 /  xQ1=40 / Q3,4,5=1 / SFS=0.90 / XTweaks = 43, 100, 0, 0, 1 / Straight Contiguous / Clock Resolution = 15ms / Scheme 3-5 (low/realtime) / 16x Custom High / Unattended
Main System: USB3 port -> *Lush* -> Phisolator -> Phasure NOS1a B75 G3  -> BD-Design BD30-SPR mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horn speakers
Office System: *Lush* -> Phisolator -> Phasure NOS1a G3  -> BD-Design BD30 stereo amp -> Impulse H2 horn speakers
PeterSt
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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2010, 11:36:56 pm »

True ... Double/Quad without upsampling is alost the same as vanilla, but has different jitter implications ...
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For the Stealth LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - November 13, 2017 (2.09)
XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores) @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *30*/-/*1*/*1*/*1*/ Q1Factor = *40* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *15ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.90*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / *OSD Off* / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Custom Filtering Highest for 705600* / Always Clear Proxy before Playbck = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (*8ms*) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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Robin Hood
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« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2010, 12:00:33 am »

Besides the obvious check box selections, what is Double or Quad with No Upsampling?  Aren't the Double or Quad modes upsampling modes by definition?  And why would a music player allow an unwitting user selections that may harm the electronics?  Unless these selections provide superior sonics to some users I would have thought these combinations would not be available.
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PeterSt
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« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2010, 12:16:42 am »

Uhm ... besides I just answered that, this is nothing less or more than what every NOS/Filterless freak etc. wants. This is nothing you and me can help, this is just is so (maybe because of lack of knowledge of those wanting it). BUT, who really has that ? IOW, your DAC will have this filter, and nothing will be harmed, even if you wanted to. Notice that this is ("nearly") not so with Mani's DAC (and for sure not with mine) which is rare (24/192).

Of course we (or I) should blame Mani a bit, for possibly not realising this.

Maybe I better put it differently : any normal software player does *not* contain a filter as such. And I mean any. So this is what Mani's post applies to. Nothing to be additionally worried about, but nevertheless true for a filterless DAC.

I hope it is clear a bit ? (nea)
Peter Happy

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For the Stealth LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - November 13, 2017 (2.09)
XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores) @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *30*/-/*1*/*1*/*1*/ Q1Factor = *40* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *15ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.90*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / *OSD Off* / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Custom Filtering Highest for 705600* / Always Clear Proxy before Playbck = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (*8ms*) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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PeterSt
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« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2010, 12:28:38 am »

Quote
Uhm ... besides I just answered that

Maybe too brief ...
This is about enforcing the DAC in the higher res mode (which changes things in the first place), while in the mean time each same sample passes 4 times (for Quad). This is jitter related ...
So, this is no upsampling at all, but it does change things.

Peter


PS: Linear Interpolation is a kind of worthless (and can indeed incur for higher harmonic distortion than vanilla), but it *is* a more 1:1 ("bit perfect" if you like) representation from what's on the CD, while in the mean time the distortion from digital stepping is eliminated to a certain extend.
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For the Stealth LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - November 13, 2017 (2.09)
XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores) @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *30*/-/*1*/*1*/*1*/ Q1Factor = *40* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *15ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.90*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / *OSD Off* / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Custom Filtering Highest for 705600* / Always Clear Proxy before Playbck = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (*8ms*) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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manisandher
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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2010, 12:36:06 am »

Peter, feel free to delete this thread if you think it will confuse and/or concern people.

But you're right, it didn't occur to me that for 99.99% of people there is simply nothing to be concerned about - the DAC's filtering will take care of things.

Mani.
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Audio PC: Phasure Mach II / Win 14393.0 on RAM-OS / controlled by RDC, no GPU card installed / connected directly to music server
XXHighEnd: 2.09 / Minimize OS / Engine#4 Adaptive / DB=4096 / *testing*: Q1=30 /  xQ1=40 / Q3,4,5=1 / SFS=0.90 / XTweaks = 43, 100, 0, 0, 1 / Straight Contiguous / Clock Resolution = 15ms / Scheme 3-5 (low/realtime) / 16x Custom High / Unattended
Main System: USB3 port -> *Lush* -> Phisolator -> Phasure NOS1a B75 G3  -> BD-Design BD30-SPR mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horn speakers
Office System: *Lush* -> Phisolator -> Phasure NOS1a G3  -> BD-Design BD30 stereo amp -> Impulse H2 horn speakers
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« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2010, 12:47:04 am »

First of all Peter, congrats once again for another evolutionary step forward with release 7.  Adaptive mode is giving me the best SQ I have ever gotten from my system.  EVERY aspect of the sound is more coherent and more live sounding.

All of the modes sound great even QAI which works without issues.  Regarding QNU (Quad No Upsampling) I take it you mean the sample rate is 176 (for 44.1 source material) but every 4 samples are identical correct?

Is there a particular setting you would expect to sound best on an OS DAC like the BADAC?  Also, any updates on when your NOS DAC will be available?
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PeterSt
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« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2010, 10:40:24 am »

Hi David,

Quote
Regarding QNU (Quad No Upsampling) I take it you mean the sample rate is 176 (for 44.1 source material) but every 4 samples are identical correct?

Precisely so. Thus, nothing happens to the samples, and each one sample is just copied three times (or one time with Double).
It will depend largely on the DAC what the influence is, but theoretically it sure is there.

Quote
Is there a particular setting you would expect to sound best on an OS DAC like the BADAC?

I am sorry, but at this moment I don't know. This is because I still can't quite get why QAP works so well on OS DACs, and in fact I am wondering now whether AI also may cause wonders. The point is also that we kind of keep on "re"setting our minds and references because of other things changing (like the new Adaptive Mode), plus those other things create the base for stuff like AI. So, like I said in the other topic, I don't recall AI being so good, but ... this was with WASAPI. You could also say : how long ago is it that at least me was raving about Engine#3 while right now it won't last 3 seconds opposed to Engine#4 (even "the wife test" confirms this with ease).


Quote
Also, any updates on when your NOS DAC will be available?

I know I didn't answer this the last time David, but this is because everything is so much out of my control and so much depending on suppliers. To give an example of the last happening on this : Monday a week ago I ordered (and payed) for a couple of XO's (oscillators) to try out, and they were ordered around the corner here, so every dutch person will know who I talk about. "Will you send them out this afternoon ?" -> Sure !
So there's Tuesday, nothing. Wednesday, nothing (already impossible). Thursday, nothing ("shall I call ?, no, I'll send an email). Friday, nothing, and no resonse to email. Saturday, nothing. Monday, nothing, so call the guy. "Yea, I planned to send them out on Thursday, I will do it today now" (man, this is a WEEK later). Tuesday (yesterday), a note in the mailbox that a package was to be delivered, but nobody was home, so the package was dropped at the nearby post office. Sadly, at the postoffice there is nothing.
But today it's another Wednesday, and another chance for something which should have taken 1 day, and now takes 9 already.

I have my own company for 24 years now, and I always have survived with no mater what hardware suppliers throughout time. How strange it is that *everything* (and I mean, no exception) around this DAC takes ages or just doesn't happen in the end. The story about Firewire is known I think, but it never stopped after that. And it seems that this can only go similar to how doctors operate : they won't proceed on a next test before the result of the previous is known. So, how can I proceed with a next step, if the previous is not known. And sadly (no, the most sad) this is not about the technical solution, but merely about the practicle solution (like talking with a supplier about his solution for a month, while at the very end -all dealt and done with- he suggests his product goes EOL and I better wait for a next version, due in 4 months. It is just crazy).

Anyway ... as the very last part of "can't be better" those clocks get in hopefully this week, and assumed they do what's asked from them the very last part has to arrive which allows me to proove that 24/384 indeed works in practice - which will be an exciting moment because it will be a glueing together of software and hardware from several parties and which comes together only at my place. If it doesn't work we can go with 24/192 (and mind you, I am using that all the time myself) or wait another round for a next attempt. Such a "round" can theoretically take 3 weeks or so, but this last time prooves it can also be 3 months.
One last thing : to be ahead of 384 not working, I have already produced 10 boards in 24/192 setup for those who don't want 384 anyway and wish to pay less.

Now you know ... swoon
Peter

Logged

For the Stealth LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - November 13, 2017 (2.09)
XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores) @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *30*/-/*1*/*1*/*1*/ Q1Factor = *40* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *15ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.90*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / *OSD Off* / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Custom Filtering Highest for 705600* / Always Clear Proxy before Playbck = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (*8ms*) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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