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Author Topic: Munich High End 2010  (Read 12714 times)
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manisandher
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« on: May 17, 2010, 12:03:19 am »

I attended the show specifically to listen to speaker systems. And in general, I was pretty disappointed with what I heard.

Most of the ‘conventional’ direct-radiating speaker systems just sounded ‘dead’, at best – what I call ‘cardboard’ sound. Many sounded positively objectionable – and I’m talking about well known high-end brands here.

I did have one interesting experience though. I was walking down a corridor and heard something coming from around the corner that I thought sounded really good. I walked speedily down the corridor and turned the corner to the sight of a live acoustic band playing snare drums, double bass and guitar! I have to say that absolutely none of the systems I heard came even close to this live sound. Could it be argued that this had much to do with bad rooms? Maybe. But it’s interesting that a live band can still sound ‘right’ from down a corridor and around a corner.

I have absolutely no desire to write negatively about anything that I heard. So here are a few systems that I had a positive experience with.

1948 Western Electric Theatre speakers

Driven by Silbatone A-845 mono amplifiers and C-100 preamplifier. 2-way system crossed at 800Hz.
Nice ‘alive’ sound. No real top or bottom to talk about though. Not sure how long I could listen to these – they seemed to have a bit of an edge to them.

Stax SRM-007tII/4070 electrostatic headphones

Really nice. Probably my favourite sound at the show.

MBL 101 X-treme

Very sweet top end – one of the best I’ve ever heard. However, things got progressively worse further down the spectrum. The mid-range seemed thin. There seemed to be a lack of upper bass. The lower bass, although substantial enough, was totally disjointed. But what a top-end!

In summary, although I didn’t hear anything at the show that approached what I consider the ‘real McCoy’, I’m still really glad I went. When I returned, I listened to some music on my speakers and realised that I’m not doing too badly. Yes, I have ‘cardboard’ sound too. But mine is in no way objectionable - just a bit ‘lifeless’... but listenable nevertheless.

Mani.


* Western Electric 1948.jpg (22.22 KB, 274x365 - viewed 913 times.)
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« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2010, 02:47:29 pm »

Dear Manisandher,

I was in Munchen too and had a similar experience. Ok there were a few very fine rooms, the Tidal room for example was special but such a system should sing only because of the fact that it was that big and really really expensive. In the afternoon I met my dear friend Rainer Weber from Regensburg. We had an appointment on Friday and after visiting the show we drove to Regensburg to have a listening session in his dedicated and fully treated listeningroom. It was the second time I was there and for the second time I was blown away.

We listened to a setup of the Kaiser Kawero loudspeakers (engineered by Rainer himself) in combination with another extraordinary German product, the Trinity DAC and Trinity monoblocks and the source was a dedicated notebook with XX-High End (of course!!). I can only say: whenever you have the chance to audition this fenomenal setup, don't think twice.... Nothing in the world comes closer to the live acoustic band playing round the corner, I can assure you!

Best regards, Han
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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2010, 03:20:19 pm »

Quote
I can assure you!

I hope you are wrong !
hahaha
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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2010, 06:06:41 pm »

I just checked out the Trinity DACs. What do you think of the dual mono-DAC formation? Anyone know what DAC chips they are using? In the demo how did they connect the controller to the PC, using rca through the headphone socket??
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2010, 06:28:11 pm »

... we drove to Regensburg to have a listening session in his dedicated and fully treated listeningroom.

Oooooh, what a room! On the one hand, I would love a room like this. On the other, I really like my music playing in a 'real' living environment.

Anyone know what DAC chips they are using?

On their site they say, "... the design engineers were able to eliminate the oversampling filter to increase sound quality still further...". Surely this is not possible with a delta-sigma chip. The 1704 then?

Mani.
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« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2010, 08:25:28 am »

I sorted it out once, and indeed it is the 1704 (well, IIRC). 80 or so of them ...


Quote
the design engineers were able to eliminate the oversampling filter to increase sound quality still further

Were able to ? haha, that must have been a tough job. That is a matter of not *adding* it. There is no filter in those chips ...
Leaves the question : what did they use ? should be nothing then (like I do it myself with the NOS1). So *now* imagine what Arc Prediction does to that poor DAC. Should be the best ... yes
And maybe only now I understand why Rainer is so much "extra fond" of using XXHighEnd. To the Trinity it does exactly what it (explicitly) intends.

Peter
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manisandher
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« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2010, 08:07:14 pm »

We listened to a setup of the Kaiser Kawero loudspeakers (engineered by Rainer himself) in combination with another extraordinary German product, the Trinity DAC and Trinity monoblocks and the source was a dedicated notebook with XX-High End (of course!!).

Han,

How does Rainer connect the notebook to the Trinity DAC? I'm assuming he uses something like the Weiss AFI1, no? But the Trinity doesn't have a wordclock ouput, so its clock cannot be used as the master.

So *now* imagine what Arc Prediction does to that poor DAC. Should be the best ... yes

I'm sure the Trinity, with its [EDIT: eight 1704s per channel] is an amazing DAC... but I bet it'd be even better if it had a wordclock out.

I know I 'bang on' about wordclocks all the time... but only because I know from experience how important it is for SQ to have the master clock sitting right next to the DAC chips.

Mani.
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« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2010, 01:43:08 pm »

I'm sure the Trinity, with its [EDIT: eight 1704s per channel] is an amazing DAC... but I bet it'd be even better if it had a wordclock out.

I know I 'bang on' about wordclocks all the time... but only because I know from experience how important it is for SQ to have the master clock sitting right next to the DAC chips.

Mani.

I agree with you.
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« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2010, 02:43:40 pm »

I'm sure the Trinity, with its [EDIT: eight 1704s per channel] is an amazing DAC... but I bet it'd be even better if it had a wordclock out.

swoon Oh ... In that case the Phasure NOS1 is allowed to cost 40K. swoon
swoon And the 8 channel version (which has 16 DACs) 80K. swoon

Anyway, then I must be confused with "some" other DAC which really has 80 or so chips. I am fairly sure I saw that on (a photo) of one of the floors of that guy who owns x million LPs. And that DAC. Haha.

Peter

PS: Maybe it was this : http://www.thedailyswarm.com/swarm/3-million-records-and-300000-cds-3-million/
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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2010, 12:19:37 pm »

Is the Trinity DAC's realy that expensive? If you look inside of them you see a switching mode ps (40€?) an elma stepping attenuator (90€?) 8xPCM1704(160€) and an old school df1706 receiver...it probably sounds good but the most expensive part of this dac is the fancy enclosure. Poor people buying that stuff...
@Peter: Will you sell this NOS1 DAC as a product or are you doing this just for your own Hifi-system?
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« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2010, 12:56:55 pm »

Quote
8xPCM1704(160€)

You can deliver me a couple of 100 for that price, ok ? Make is a 1000 haha.

If you buy larger quantities (think of over 100) it's 215 for those 8 (which is per channel, not to forget). And this is excluding VAT.

Suppose you buy 8 only, it can get as worse as 360 (incl. VAT).
If you can get them at all, of course.
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Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
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*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2010, 01:41:09 pm »

4x PCM1704U-K = US$ 60 (incl)
 Happy

I also ordered these from asia, 2 years ago

And these:

2X PCM63P-K = US$ 50
1X DF1704E = US$ 16
1X CS8420-CS = US$ 12
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« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2010, 03:08:57 pm »

Quote
8xPCM1704(160€)

You can deliver me a couple of 100 for that price, ok ? Make is a 1000 haha.
hey ok I could make some easy money Wink No, I am kidding. They were available at schuro.de for 40€(incl.Tax) a selected pair. But that was some years ago. Don't know if they still sell them. If you buy them in larger amounts it gets even cheaper. Off course the costs I posted not included everything and has to be doubled. But 40k is .........

Quote
If you can get them at all, of course.
They are still in production as far as I know.

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Hardware: | Gigabyte X79-UD3 | i7-3820 | 16 GB DDR3 | OS on 128 GB Samsung SSD 830  | Music on 2TB WD Caviar Green | Seasonic X-660

XXHE Settings: | Engine 4 | Adaptive | Buffer=1024 | Q12345=[14,0,0,0,0] | xQ1=1 | Q5=3 | Scheme=3 | Mixed Contiguous with SFS=12 | 176.4kHz32bit | ArcPred + Peakextend | Clock=1ms |
PeterSt
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« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2010, 03:29:50 pm »

Quote from: AUDIODIDAKT
4x PCM1704U-K = US$ 60 (incl)
 Happy

I also ordered these from asia, 2 years ago

Hmm ... maybe two years ago the prices were different. But also notice that whatever company it is overthere, it must be very reliable (or just known to you) once you're into these higher quantities.
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - August 18, 2018 (2.10)
XXHighEnd Mach *III* Stealth LPS PC -> *Xeon Scalable 14/28 core* with Hyperthreading On (*set to 10/20 cores*) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *140.19*  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *35* / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> *Lush^2 A: B-W & Y-R, B: B-W* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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PeterSt
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« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2010, 03:32:41 pm »

Quote
They were available at schuro.de for 40€(incl.Tax) a selected pair.

Schuro ... the best club to buy from when you really want to get crazy. yes

Try to get anything there in quantities higher than 100 (including the smallest resistors). nono

And something which costs EUR 30-40 or so ... maybe you can get three of them at a time.
No, I don't understand them ...
Logged

For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - August 18, 2018 (2.10)
XXHighEnd Mach *III* Stealth LPS PC -> *Xeon Scalable 14/28 core* with Hyperthreading On (*set to 10/20 cores*) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *140.19*  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *35* / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> *Lush^2 A: B-W & Y-R, B: B-W* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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