Analog stereo RCA cable

[ivo]

I am on my way to upgrade the analog part of my stereo system. This time it will be the analog RCA cable between DAC and stereo amp. So, I was wondering if you could share what cables are you using there and is there a cheap one that beats the expensive ones? Also, what do you think about the importance of this cable as to overall system sound. THANKS.

Ivo

[PeterSt]

Guys ...

I think it is a bit stupid that nobody wants to share his opinion on this. Of course you may think your answer will be wrongish or stupid by itself, but since I don't like questions to remain unanswered, I just *will* do it. So, it is not that I don't want to do it, but if we go on like this you may think I know it all, and I'm the only one ... or something like that. This is far from true in many cases, and it really can't harm to have "a" or another opinion. Ok ?

So, here is my take, and it probably isn't worth much :

I am totally careless about cables. Those who have been at my place know it. But, this is almost explicit, because cables just shouldn't do anything in my opinion.
I use shielded (75 Ohm) cables for about everything and at less than 1 euro per meter and some good sticking plugs I make them myself.
Notice that this doesn't imply they are "good" as such, and the only thing I explicitly use from a cable is the shielding because I think that is a necessity (especially with my cable mess).

But ...

What is in my mind for sure is that any cable that makes the sound "better" by means of bringing more ease/rest and that kind of stuff, will be a wrong cable. It will filter out things which are wrong - hence not to be there in the first place, and from there on you won't know what you are doing. I mean, if you have a preamp that makes the sound harsh, throw it out or buy a better preamp. This counts for everything.
I think THE main differennce from my "sound" compared to others' is that I never solve things the wrong way. I solve them at the source.
Yea, easy to say for me (with quite some things under my own control), but still it would be wrong to explicitly solve issues with cables. And above that, they cost you. A LOT.

But it also depends on the (known) properties of the cable concerned, and whether we can understand them. For example (and I don't have more examples at the moment), for the DAC and the analogue wireing, I use specially extruded silver wire, where during the extrusion the (still fluid) cable is held back. So, the density of the electrons will be higher, to me meaning a better and faster throughput of the electricity (this is not the commercial expression of the manufacturer, but just my thinking with the production process - which *is* expressed by the manufacturer).

So, you could say that when I at last use a cable other than normal, it is *me* who must have an idea of its better working and why.
Do I hear a difference ? No. But I also didn't try to hear a difference, as with many things. If only the (my) theory is good. Besides, there's only some 4cm of this wire per channel (like in 4x for stereo) in the DAC, so probably it isn't audible at all.

However ... Since I have some 10 meters of this hanging around anyway, it should be sufficient for creating a set of interlinks out of it, in my case from the DAC to the main amps. *Now* I am pretty sure I will be perceiving a difference, and whatever it will be, it should be for the better.
Unless someone tells me that near pure silver acts like a filter for something. But then I just shouldn't use it at all, anywhere.

So ... Your question Ivo, comes together with my very first attempt in my audio life (which must be close to some 40 years now) that I am going to have a real serious attempt with cabling of some sort. But it is not a real coincidence I am doing that right at this very moment. Why ?
Well, because I'm kind of done now. My amps are my amps, my speakers are my speakers, my DAC is finally my DAC (nothing will change sound wise anymore), so NOW I am ready for stupid cabling.

So you see, nothing much more than 2c. But I will let you know when more value comes from it. I think I will do it somewhere in the upcoming days.
Peter

[Marcin_gps]

Yeah, I think about replacing my low-end Belkin cables with Vovox Initio. This is actually pro audio company, but has 2 series of 'audiophile' cables: Initio and, a lot more expensive, Textura. These cables were highly recommended by my colleague. He claim that Vovox (initio) is better than  Albedo Monolith, YP Sound Argentum, Mit Terminator, Tara Air 1, Shunyata Python, Anaconda and Lyra, Nordosth Vishnu and Kubala Sosna. Initio series is relatively cheap, but still - it will be almost 1K EUR for everything (IC, speaker, power cables and power socket). That's quite a sum especially that my system is worth about ~2,5K EUR. Is it worth it?

http://www.vovox.com/neu/content_e/03_02.html
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue44/vovox.htm

[AUDIODIDAKT]

Hey Ivo,

The best way is to DIY,
spend it on high grade materials rather then spending it on a "famous high-end" brand.
I have seen a lot of those "expensive" interlinks from the inside and its nothing more then "normal" wire.
Those still costing you hundreds of euros/dollars, what a waste.

Use materials like 99,9999 silver or high grade OFC copper pref. solid-core wire and use teflon as dielectric insulator instead of PVC.

Let me know if you are into DIY, you can build your own.


To Peter,

Did you ordered the cable materials I mentioned to you in a PM ?
I think you did, or at least almost the same.
They will be worth while as analog interlinks, believe me.
Although the length between your dac and amp concerns me, maybe do shield them. (for eg. 3M copper foil and braided copper) dont connect the copper shielding to ground just leave as is.

If you are planning on building those, get enough booze on the side because they are NOT easy to build.
(you need to make a mould, to get the wire properly in place and you need an extra hand)

For now,

Roy

[pedal]

Some general reflections:
There are quite big sound differences to be had from various cables. But "different" doesnt allways mean better or worse, just "different".
I use a quite good (neutral) inexpensive signal cable called SILK, sourced from Sweden as ready made or DIY. It is one of the best sellers in Scandinavia, a good allrounder. It is available in 2 versions. Exactly the same geometry and materials, but with different gauge.
I went for the thicker one, giving more body and fuller sound. Choosing the thinner one would give more "speed" and focus on the overtones.
Actually, now I am longing for slightly more "action" and transient speed, and I have been tempted to check out some other cables. But I'll wait till I get the NOS DAC, which Peter says excel exactly in those areas. (I  have a theory that my Buffallo II is *slightly* on the soft side of real world microdynamic response). 

Cable differences are well worth testing out, but don't ever spend big bucks on it, because the same money spend on active components provides better value/money.

Happy cable hunting!

[GerardA]

Ivo,

I agree with everything said already, and can add just a little of my experience.
If you want to buy in the shop then go to a good shop and ask to try some of their cables for a weekend.
This is how I started and ended up with a very nice sounding cable by audioquest. (20 years or so ago).
The other cables sounded thinner and this one was warmer and silky.
After that tried a lot of different DIY-experiments, to end up with buying vd Hull en Nordost.
But then I read about wire without plastic insulation, laquer-wire used to make transformers.
It was a big surprise, transients sounded so clean, absolutely no smearing.
I guess teflon is better in this respect too like audiodidact wrote, but no dielectric is best of course.
Just like capacitors, the dielectric has a big influence.
Then the thickness of the wires. I did not believe it but really it has influence, for my speakers I ended up with eight strings of 1 mm wire.
For mid/high a combination of .5 and .35 mm sounded best. It is like they have their own resonancefrequency wich gets canceled by the combination.
And the wires have to be twisted to give some mechanical stiffness, wires are not supposed to move relative to each other.
This idea you can find at Cardas too, but they are expensive!
If you feel like it, DIY is the way to go!
If you don't want to DIY go back to my first advice.

Peter, maybe a thread for tips and tweeks for the other parts of the chain?

[wushuliu]

I agree w/ Peter that the most important factor is the source, but in my experience a high quality cable helps you to diagnose weaknesses in your system. Just like using XXHE, it's all about trial and error. Not just any cheap cable will do. if at all possible as has been said, DIY is the way to go. Also, it's fun! For very little money you can make a great cable with Teflon OCC Copper and high quality connectors for instance. And the connectors are important. IMO that is where the 'cheapness' of a cable can be most compromised. In other words, I think a regular good-quality copper cable w/ copper/silver, etc connectors will sound better than an 'expensive' copper cable with cheap brass connectors. But that's just my experience.

Just like XXHE, every element plays a role, every component contributes to the quality of the sound. Some elements are more important than others, but it all adds up...

Most important thing is learning and having fun.

[AUDIODIDAKT]

Gerard gave some good advise too,

But then I read about wire without plastic insulation, laquer-wire used to make transformers.
It was a big surprise, transients sounded so clean, absolutely no smearing.
I guess teflon is better in this respect too like audiodidact wrote, but no dielectric is best of course.
Just like capacitors, the dielectric has a big influence.
Then the thickness of the wires. I did not believe it but really it has influence, for my speakers I ended up with eight strings of 1 mm wire.
For mid/high a combination of .5 and .35 mm sounded best. It is like they have their own resonancefrequency wich gets canceled by the combination.
And the wires have to be twisted to give some mechanical stiffness, wires are not supposed to move relative to each other.

- OK, but no dielectric is not really do-able, you need some kind of protection against oxidation/corrosion.
   So if you get cable wire always get wire with at least Teflon (PTFE, FEP)
   Otherwise you cannot even touch it with your "dirty" fingers.

   This has to do with the skin-effect, electrons tend to move near the outside of the cable, so between the outside-wire and the dielectric.
   if you use PVC it just wont do, its just bad, you will hear this. (smearing)

- Thickness of the wire is VERY important, for interlinks I would recommend to use no more as 0.5 mm (even smaller is better)

- Don't use coaxial designs, or use 2 wire coaxial instead and leave the foil and breaded shield in place, but do not connect the shield to ground.

- Twisting the wire is very important to reduce noise and avoid the interlink to work like an antenna, about 15-17 twists/per feet is a good value.

- Its better to double-shield all other cables in your system and leave the analog interlinks UNSHIELDED.

- And yes, the connectors will be the most expensive parts of the design, be also very important, use for eg. Eichmann, WBT, Neutrix, Furutech (not cheap!)

- Use silver-solder to make the connections and clean off the flux with pure alcohol before wrap it in teflon plumbers-tape, this avoids corrosion
  and keeps your contacts clean, for many years.


For now,

Roy

PS: For those who do not feel like DIY, I have some very nice designs I can pre-build with using only the best materials currently available.

[arvind]

Hi Ivo,

I have over the years tried various analog interconnects & I find that the Audience AU 24 is very neutral, fairly priced & has performed better in my system as compared to some of the very big brands like Purist Audio/Kimber/Synergistic Research/Siltech etc,etc.

Arvind