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Author Topic: Gainclone heaven ?  (Read 375033 times)
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Scroobius
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« Reply #135 on: November 17, 2011, 06:34:07 pm »

Hi Gerard - higher supply voltage would be interesting but you need to make sure you have 8 ohm speakers. A higher voltage and low impedance speakers can be a problem. 

P
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« Reply #136 on: November 17, 2011, 08:44:12 pm »

Yes, Higher voltage with 4 ohm is a little waste of money, but I think the protection will keep it save. Or not?
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« Reply #137 on: November 17, 2011, 08:46:40 pm »

Hi Nick

This guys experience is interesting you may have read it http://www.shine7.com/audio/gainclone.htm - he measured the DC rails and found up to 20% drop when driving the speakers hard with a lot of bass so he added a high current regulator and improved the sound a lot.

You would not have that problem but maybe others of us (like me for example) do? I will get my DVM out when I have a moment to check it.

Peter's point is interesting about noise though.

P

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« Reply #138 on: November 17, 2011, 08:50:43 pm »

Hi Gerard - my recent experience was that protection on my GC did not work (with high offset input voltage) it fried and ended up toast. So now I am very nervous about invoking protection.

P
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« Reply #139 on: November 17, 2011, 10:40:24 pm »

Hi Adrian - the gain is defined by the value of two resistors Rf and R3 in Peter Daniels kit and it will be similar in yours I am sure. You can change the gain by selecting different values for those resistors.

True. But notice the relation between the higher resistance (higher value Ohms on the resistors) and the thermal noise implied. So, there's also a relation between the supply (V) applied and what value of the resistors now need to "surpress" the gain.
But, sort out the way this works, because "feed back resistors" operate like the higher the resistance, the more gain you will have. Thus also (and for Nick) : the higher the supply, the lower the value of those resistors, the less (thermal) noise.

Regards,
Peter
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« Reply #140 on: November 18, 2011, 12:19:23 am »

Thanks Scoobius and Peter.
I am also playing with the idea to get one of these:
http://www.transcendentsound.com/Transcendent/Products.html

I once heard the single ended OTL with a fullrange horn. I could compare it to my EL34 ClassA amps I had back then. I remember it as an "that is it" experience. Very clear and extremly fast. Has anyone experiences with one of these amps?

The problem is, it is hard to design a speaker that works well with these amps (constant 8 ohm impedance and sensitivity>>90db)
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« Reply #141 on: November 18, 2011, 12:45:25 pm »

Hi Adrian - the gain is defined by the value of two resistors Rf and R3 in Peter Daniels kit and it will be similar in yours I am sure. You can change the gain by selecting different values for those resistors.

True. But notice the relation between the higher resistance (higher value Ohms on the resistors) and the thermal noise implied. So, there's also a relation between the supply (V) applied and what value of the resistors now need to "surpress" the gain.
But, sort out the way this works, because "feed back resistors" operate like the higher the resistance, the more gain you will have. Thus also (and for Nick) : the higher the supply, the lower the value of those resistors, the less (thermal) noise.

Regards,
Peter

Furthermore dont forget to look at the specsheet of the chipamp for minimum closed loop amplification if you plan to change the resistor ratio. For the gainclone chip this is about 20X (as I remember...), lower and you are asking for problems (instability).

Regards, Coen
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« Reply #142 on: December 11, 2011, 10:24:31 pm »

I am looking for an amplifier for a friend and the Gainclones seem to be a good choice. But I do not want to build such an amp and it should not be expensive (200€-300€). Are there any ready made amps in that price range? I searched the web and found nothing. I had a test with a tripath design:
http://www.audiophonics.fr/poppulse-t150-mkii-amplificateur-classet-tripath-ta2022-p-3626.html

For the price you can not argue about the sound but I like my friends to have something better. My class A ss amp with tube pre amp is of course another leage and it would be nice to find something equally good or even better for small money. Considering what you say about the gain clones, they should also be at least one step ahead of the tripath designs, even if they are in the cheap price range.
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« Reply #143 on: December 12, 2011, 09:22:17 am »

Quote
My class A ss amp with tube pre amp is of course another leage
- Maybe / maybe not - best to compare them in your system before making such a claim (I and others have made that comparison and been surprised). And of course using XX means that the pre amp can be removed and that is always going to be a substantial improvement.

I have not found any "cheap" ready built GainClones (and 200 - 300 Euro's is very cheap) and there is a reason. You would not be able to build one for that price. Just check out the price of good quality transformers cases and fittings. Then add on the hours labour and you will come up with a price that no longer seems so cheap. Peter Daniel sells a very good ready built GainClone and also there is the original GainCard - of course they are not cheap. And then again there is Bert who is making a GC "special" for Mani. I am sure there are others but I have not come across them. Best of luck.

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« Reply #144 on: December 12, 2011, 04:59:26 pm »

Quote
- Maybe / maybe not - best to compare them in your system before making such a claim (I and others have made that comparison and been surprised). And of course using XX means that the pre amp can be removed and that is always going to be a substantial improvement.
I have compared the linked amp (tripath) to my amplifier in my system. With my old passive preamp the sound of the class a ss and passive pre was better. Now with my active pre, the difference shoud be rather bigger.
I suspect from what the people in this thread were saying that the gainclones are realy good and maybe better than what I have. That is why I am ineterested in this too.
Because it is a simple design like the tripath it should be possible to make an ready made amp that is not much more expensive than the mentioned one. For a non hifi freaks like my friend is, using blackgate caps, high quality transformers in an expensive enclosure would be a waste of money. But anyway, gainclones seem more popular in the realm of diy then in the mass market.
Removing of the pre amp and using xx volume control is not always an improvement. At least with the DAC I have tried it was not (Audio-GD ref7). With my new dac (Northstar Extremo) I did not try it, because there is a problem of "popps" when I use it with the audio-gd digital interface. When the fridge turns on for example, there can be a popping sound out of the speaker. It does not occur that often but when, it would be very loud without a pre.
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« Reply #145 on: December 12, 2011, 06:10:31 pm »

Quote
Because it is a simple design like the tripath

I don't think a TriPath is so simple ... Happy
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« Reply #146 on: December 12, 2011, 06:49:34 pm »

A tripath chip is not simple itself. But you do not need a 1000w trafo and 100000uF of filtering and so on. That is what I ment. And that makes it cheap. Same is true for the gain clone if you look at the design of peter daniel for example.
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« Reply #147 on: December 20, 2011, 10:19:31 am »

Hey guys, listen up now. My 'super' gainclones will arrive here today!

Bert (BD-Design) built them for me, and from the pictures (posted with Bert's consent) you'll see he seems to have done a really great job. And Paul (Scroobius) yes, they really are Black Gate Ns - 8 per channel!!!

I just can't wait - actually, the last time I was this excited about hifi was just before my original NOS1 was due to arrive, around this time last year IIRC.

This post may be a little premature as I haven't even tried them (not here yet), but I wanted to give you all a heads up.

I wonder if I'm the first person to have tried driving electrostatics with gainclones?

Mani.


* Super Gain Clone Front.JPG (593.34 KB, 2000x1500 - viewed 22152 times.)

* Super Gain Clone Back.JPG (470.86 KB, 2000x1500 - viewed 12110 times.)
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« Reply #148 on: December 20, 2011, 11:24:02 am »

Hey Mani - they look familiar  Happy excellent taste in enclosures I must say.  Any chance of a picture where we can see all three boxes with the tops off looking from the rear? On the other hand I suppose that the other box will be another amp identical to the amp we can see in the picture?.

Only one transformer ??? or does it have two secondary's one for each amp?

If the amp does not work out with the Quads you could always give those Blackgate N's to a good home (i.e. me) - I promise I would look after them for you he he  Happy.

Just out of interest what size (uF's) are the BG's?

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621 Xeon 6120 LPS PC  -> Xeon Scalable 16/32 core with Hyperthreading On (all cores active) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.69  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Off / WallPaper Off/ OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelino Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Nick
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« Reply #149 on: December 20, 2011, 11:41:43 am »

+1 on the enclosures  Happy


Mani,

They look fantastic, a great build by Bert and I bet the post cannot come fast enough   Happy

Not just 8 Blackgates but 8 BG N types, that should really help the sound.

I think I can count 4 amps per channel, are we looking at bridged parallel for each channel with differential inputs ?

Very, very nice I understand why you want to hear them.

Best Nick.
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Audio PC

C621 motherboard, Xeon 40 thread CPU.

 w10 14393 RAM OS => XX V2.10 / adaptive mode / XX buffer 4096 / NOS USB driver v 1.02 buffer 16ms / Q1,2,3,4,5 = 10,-,1,1,1 / xQ1 =15 / unattended / SFS 0.69Mb / memory straight continuous / system clock 15.0ms / Threadprio RealTime / Playerprio Low / CPU scheme 3-5 / 16x Arc Prediction / Peak Extend off / Phase alignment off / Phase off  / XTweaks : Balanced Load 35 / Nervous Rate 10 (or15) / Cool when Idle n/a / Provide Stable Power 0 / Utilize Cores always 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability  On =>  Lush USB cable => modified NOS1 USB DAC => no pre amp => Orelo active horn loudspeakers with modified bass channel DSPs.

Music server: X99, Xeon 28 thread PC.

System power two 3kva balanced tranformers with dedicated earth spur.
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