I say NO to SSD for music playback.

[Gerard]

Everyone,

Today i made a fresh install of W7-SP1 on a HDD. So at the moment i have it on a SSD and a HDD. Really no way for me that i would like to go back to a SSD anymore. Since the latest version of XX there was to much of the highs. Some metal irritating sound.

After the first track it was obvious that the irritating sound is gone. Now i can even play SFS 40. With the SSD I had had to use SFS 1 to get rid of it a bit. The overall sound is much more relaxing IMO. In a few weeks i hope i can explain it a bit further but for now the new pc builders may think twice. Since a SSD is a bit expensive.

That where two expensive SSD'S that i bought I still can use one for the Galleries though.


 

EDIT: I have an SSD with Vista also and that to delivered to much in the upper region. So i really think it's the SSD that is causing it. (OCZ V2 and Intel)

[PeterSt]

Eh Gerard ...

Do you realize that this was about your very first remark on SQ ever ?

So how confident must you be ?!

Haha. Now let's get rid of the RAMDisk.
Mine has gone for a few days now; yours may be tomorrow.

[Gerard]

Eh Gerard ...

Do you realize that this was about your very first remark on SQ ever ?

So how confident must you be ?!

Haha. Now let's get rid of the RAMDisk.
Mine has gone for a few days now; yours may be tomorrow.

Hahaha 

Yes that was in my head also  Really the dac does make SQ differences more recognizable that is what i think. And maybe some self-confidence that is grown is part of it.

 

 

[PeterSt]

And maybe some self-confidence that is grown is part of it.

Well, if that is not honest, I don't know anymore (this will be "dutch", but I'm sure you'll understand). But after so many years, this should be your victory.
It is not without a reason I said it you know. So what I really want to say : confidence in someone else is one, but confidence in yourself is quite something else. Now go for it. I think you deserve it.

[juanpmar]

Now that it seems that both the OS and XXHigEnd should be in a HDD in place of in a SSD for better sound, wouldn´t be a good idea to have it in the fastest possible HDD?, I´m thinking about something like a VelociRaptor. The 150Gb are now around 100€. http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=20

[PeterSt]

If you can't find a 15000 RPM (which theoretically exist), yes.
But have SATAIII on your motherboard for the 6GB througput ...

[juanpmar]

So, there not difference between a 7.200rpm and a 10.000rpm HDD? I mean talking about improving sound.

[PeterSt]

I really don't know ...

You could look at the Wattage used though. And next *I* still don't know.

[Gerard]

Now that it seems that both the OS and XXHigEnd should be in a HDD in place of in a SSD for better sound, wouldn´t be a good idea to have it in the fastest possible HDD?, I´m thinking about something like a VelociRaptor. The 150Gb are now around 100€. http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=20

That was what i have been thinking for the last weeks. If i recall there was someone who used a very slow HD was that for the heat or SQ.

[pedal]

Well, I don't know if it's anything wrong with my SSD...

I run my XX on a SSD.
All music on a separate SATA II 2TB HD.

...And the sound quality is ABSOLUTELY stunning! Featuring the 0.9z-4-1 with the new settings from Peter today, it is just perfect, perfect, perfect. Treble is 100% integrated with midrange and bass. It's extremely 3D, detailed, dynamic and natural. My vinyl itch dying today. Period.

At the moment I dont feel like changing anything. My SSD stays in the game! Never change a winning team 

(I will follow up on my new killer settings in the other thread).

[PeterSt]

Shall I be honest ? I do that too ...

But the OS in on a spinning disk.

Maybe it emerged like that because I can't take out the SSD because my development environment is on it, and the only thing I recall is that (for me) it really started to workout after the OS was not on the SSD anymore. I never took it out though, also because my Galleries are on it.

[praphan]

Hi Peter,

I have both XXHE and OS installed on HDD. SSD is sitting idle doing nothing in my PC. Although Z4-1 is the best sounding XX I have ever had, but it is a bit rich and thick on the mid bass. Too forward as well. This may be due to : "special" + "scheme 3" + "SC".

What is your experience on OS installed on HDD and XX on SSD ? Should be generally better than both on HDD?

Thanks
Praphan

[PeterSt]

Hi Praphan,

Please allow me to not know this for 100% (yet);

The only thing I know is that currently I don't perceive "strangenessess" anymore, nor do I have a reason to believe that the SSD improves sound otherwise (because it just can't, and when it does something else MUST be wrong).
The reason I have the SSD in I already talked about, and the reason I would *want* it in is because of the speed on the Galleries.

But what I can't judge (because I didn't compare - can't take it out) is what happens when it is not in there at all. I think it won't matter, and I sure *hope* it won't.

Although Z4-1 is the best sounding XX I have ever had, but it is a bit rich and thick on the mid bass. Too forward as well.

Well, here is an answer you may not have heard from me before, but I wouldn't like to put it otherwise per today :

Can't tell.



No. Because things have changed. Somehow things are "all over good" now. So, nothing wrong here or nothing wrong there, and try to get in the middle of it somewhere, or at either end so someone's subjective likings. You can see it by the late posts. I won't say "nothing to complain", but what there's left to complain seems to be about different things now. Like my own example about the inconsistent buffer settings. Pedal's response to it (and complaints about the same before that). But there's suddenly a difference, which wasn't there before : the NOS1; The more I work with it myself (or maybe I should say : the more I work on things arounbd it) the more I learn that this stupid thing *indeed* lets  hear anything just how it is (these were Mani's words, or maybe his visitor's), and things have become "absolute". This wasn't before because the playback software wasn't good (enough -> XX).

It could be a psychological thing as well (on my side I mean), because this has slipped into my mind, and won't go out of it anymore. But in fact a very important step.

Ok Praphan, maybe it starts to sound like advertising the NOS1, but I'm not doing that, at least not towards you. On that matter I hope it's okay to tell that your NOS1 is on its way already, so I don't think I need to sell it to you. Haha. For others ? well, difficult.

To be very honest, when discussions are going on in other forums, it's often that I think (or even say) : "yeah, well, you don't listen to any truth anyway". I have *never* said this in here, although one time it was very close (about buying interfaces instead of DACs).  There was no reason to.

All 'n all the kind of strange thing for myself is that applying wrong(ish) buffer settings now totally kills all, while on the other hand something like playing Attended (see Pedal's post) doesn't matter much anymore. This just is true, but (looking back) it all fits. But :
"destroy" this by means of the DAC again, and all becomes subjective. That this merely is about the OS vs NOS debate is something else (but mighty important), and that no other good NOS exists than the NOS1 (as far as I can tell), is something like a coincidence. In the end this is not all that much about "good", but merely about "doing 100% nothing to the sound you stuff it with".

So, all is logic, as long as we can take it that the playback from the software is quite allright now.
This should be completely "absolute" to me, but will be subjective to you for another few days. After that ? we just copy eachother's settings and we can talk about it.

But one last thing : I sure and sincerely hope we can continue to do this with everyone, although this post seems to let you think otherwise.

Sorry for a long answer without answers.
Peter

[BertD]

At the moment I dont feel like changing anything. My SSD stays in the game! Never change a winning team 

Well, I exchanged my SSD for a 10.000RPM WD 2,5" HDD from where the speed is acceptable but for most, it sounds better to my ears (less artificial being more black than grey without losing any information..).

I cloned the SSD and listened to both using the same settings (disconnected the Sata cable and power from the other disc simulating it was out of the system).

Now the SSD is permanently out of the system (its a dedicated PC for audio only). Never tried with the SSD still connected to the system though (it confuses the boot sequence being a cloned disc) but I could format the SSD and plug it in. I do not think it will make the sound any different anyhow though as nothing is linked to the disc making it active in the background... 

Cheers,

Bert

[Gerard]

At the moment I dont feel like changing anything. My SSD stays in the game! Never change a winning team 

Well, I exchanged my SSD for a 10.000RPM WD 2,5" HDD from where the speed is acceptable but for most, it sounds better to my ears (less artificial being more black than grey without losing any information..).

I cloned the SSD and listened to both using the same settings (disconnected the Sata cable and power from the other disc simulating it was out of the system).

Now the SSD is permanently out of the system (its a dedicated PC for audio only). Never tried with the SSD still connected to the system though (it confuses the boot sequence being a cloned disc) but I could format the SSD and plug it in. I do not think it will make the sound any different anyhow though as nothing is linked to the disc making it active in the background... 

Cheers,

Bert

Hey Bert,

Why a 2,5 and not a 3,5? And which model you have?

 

[BertD]

Why a 2,5 and not a 3,5? And which model you have?

It was the only high RPM I could find that could be fitted into my system but suited me well anyhow making less noise than the 3,5" drives usually do. I can't hear it spin... ;-)

Its a WD VelociRaptor IcePack 150GB, 10Krpm, 16MB, SATA2 (I could get the 300GB for a little more but I do not need the extra space and SATA3 is not an option).

Bert

[Gerard]

Why a 2,5 and not a 3,5? And which model you have?

It was the only high RPM I could find that could be fitted into my system but suited me well anyhow making less noise than the 3,5" drives usually do. I can't hear it spin... ;-)

Its a WD VelociRaptor IcePack 150GB, 10Krpm, 16MB, SATA2 (I could get the 300GB for a little more but I do not need the extra space and SATA3 is not an option).

Bert

Ok thanx!

[PeterSt]

Now that it seems that both the OS and XXHigEnd should be in a HDD in place of in a SSD for better sound, wouldn´t be a good idea to have it in the fastest possible HDD?, I´m thinking about something like a VelociRaptor. The 150Gb are now around 100€. http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=20

Btw ... I never saw (and still don't) whether this was about a 2.5" or 3.5" (because the link doesn't work on the PC I use here).
So, my earlier remark about the 15K RPM won't count for a 2.5". Well, not that I know of.


PS: Thank you Bert.

[manisandher]

THIS POST IS EXTREMELY PAINFUL FOR ME TO WRITE.

In the past 12 months, I've invested quite a bit of money getting my two music PCs and my work PC 'up to scratch'. Most of the expense can be attributed to my insistence on buying totally silent components with no moving parts. The three PCs in question are all totally silent - no cooling fans anywhere, no water pumps and no spinning disks. You know, it's an absolute pleasure sitting right next to my work PC in total silence - especially when I'm working late at night. And also listening to music late at night in my main room - I really think the background silence adds to the listening experience in some way. Ordinarily, I wouldn't change my 'totally silent' approach for anything.

HOWEVER...

With the introduction of the 'Minimise OS' feature came a new challenge for me - how to get my music files from my NAS to my PCs when the network adaptor has been disabled? Yes, I could disable 'Minimise OS', reboot, load the tracks/albums I want to play, enable 'Minmise OS' and then reboot... but this is a bit of a PITA really. So, I thought I'd 'kill two birds with one stone', get an HDD and fix my 'Minimise OS' problem and take the opportunity to compare the OS loaded onto the HDD vs. the SSD all in one go.

I really, really wanted the OS loaded onto the SSD to sound better than when loaded onto the HDD. This would be perfect for me. All my music could then be stored on the 3TB HDD (only 2TB used of course) and the OS/XX installed on the 90GB SSD. I could then set the HDD to spin down after 1 minute and listen to my music in total silence late at night. No toggling between 'Minimise OS' and rebooting required. Bliss.

BUT, BUT, BUT...

The HDD sounds better than the SSD!!! Period. It's more open-sounding... simply more 'alive'. Peter has commented that SSDs sound as if they're 'filtering' the sound in some way - I now totally agree with this. This is no placebo on my part - remember, I wanted and was hoping for the exact opposite outcome.

So, I now have to put up with the sound of a spinning disk. Late at night, I really can hear this, especially with classical music during quiet parts. I totally hate this, but the improvement in sound more than makes up for it.

Computer audio... what a total pain.

Mani.

[Bigear]

Hi Mani,

just curious, do you have posted somewhere a description on how you builded up (what components used) your (almost) total silent PC?

Thanks,
Quint

[PeterSt]

But Mani, maybe there is hope ...

First of all, and assuming that you used the 3TB for the OS this time, they are noisy beasts. Get superhot as well. So, wrong spinning disk for the job ...
That is, I can't imagine that you will hear the normal 2TB disks (or smaller ones). The 3TB though (at least mine) - you can already feel they make noise (vibrate).

Another kind of option might be to use some sort of eSata connection; the cable used for it can be longer. I don't know what it takes to connect it to the disk directly. And otherwise a dock could do it. What I don't know is whether you can boot from it this way (I just never tried, and/but would not know why it wouldn't work).
No matter you now might be able to dampen it inside of whatever it takes, again don't do this with the 3TB; too hot.

Lastly, knowing you have a basement, you could try to stuff the whole PC in here. Somewhere near the ceiling. Just extend the keyboard and monitor cables (can be 15m easily) and you could be done. Maybe let stick out some USB cable above to put in USB sticks.

Or be more creative than I am ...
Peter

[manisandher]

... just curious, do you have posted somewhere a description on how you builded up (what components used) your (almost) total silent PC?

Hi Quint. No, I don't think I've ever posted anything. You see, the three PCs in question are all built around Zalman TNN300 cases, which are pretty much unobtainable now. These place certain limitations on which mobo can be used that just wouldn't be valid with most other cases. For example, I have to use mini-ATX mobos... PITA.

Mani.

[manisandher]

... assuming that you used the 3TB for the OS this time, they are noisy beasts. Get superhot as well. So, wrong spinning disk for the job ...
That is, I can't imagine that you will hear the normal 2TB disks (or smaller ones).

Great, thanks for letting me know. I think the immediate solution would be to use the noisy 3TB HDD for storing music (I mean I have it now and may as well use it, but will set it to spin down after 1 minute), the 90GB SSD for galleries, and a new HDD for the OS & XX. So, can anyone recommend a low-capacity (100GB is enough), ultra-fast and ultra-quite HDD?

Another kind of option might be to use some sort of eSata connection; the cable used for it can be longer. I don't know what it takes to connect it to the disk directly. And otherwise a dock could do it. What I don't know is whether you can boot from it this way (I just never tried, and/but would not know why it wouldn't work).
No matter you now might be able to dampen it inside of whatever it takes, again don't do this with the 3TB; too hot.

Not sure about this option. It just seems too 'messy' somehow.

Lastly, knowing you have a basement, you could try to stuff the whole PC in here. Somewhere near the ceiling. Just extend the keyboard and monitor cables (can be 15m easily) and you could be done. Maybe let stick out some USB cable above to put in USB sticks.

I like the sound of this. Does anyone know of an easy way to switch a PC on remotely or would I have to physically go down to my basement whenever I want to do this?

Mani.

[juanpmar]

can anyone recommend a low-capacity (100GB is enough), ultra-fast and ultra-quite HDD?
Mani.

Hi Mani

The fastest HDD I know with around 100GB is the Hitachi Ultrastar C15K147 at 15.000rpm with 147GB and it looks quite silent. See Specifications: http://www.hitachigst.com/internal-drives/enterprise/ultrastar/ultrastar-c15k147

There are other Hitachi models and WD Velociraptor like the one I use at 10.000rpm and 300GB. To tell you the truth I hear more the air conditioning in my music room than the Velociraptor it self. Of course the fans in the case are a little noisier also than the HDD. But neither the air conditioning nor the fans in the case bother me too much, they are quite silent and the music is great. I´ve never tried SSD though.

Here I´ve found a link for you in case you´re interested on buying it: http://www.scan.co.uk/products/147-gb-hitachi-0b23723-ultrastar-c15k147-sas-6gb-s-15000rpm-64mb-cache-3-ms

Best regards, Juan

[manisandher]

Thanks for this Juan. I think this is a 2.5" drive right? Also, it's quite expensive for a drive first released in 2009. For this reason, I've ordered a Dell Hitachi HUS156030VLS600 300GB drive from Amazon, and saved £40 in the process!

Thanks again.

Mani.

[Gerard]

Mani,

I still use the SSD for XX.

So Win 7 on Velociraptor HDD. XX and the gallerie on SSD. And another "normal" HDD for the music.

Copy to XX-drive by standard ON

 

[Flecko]

Does anyone know of an easy way to switch a PC on remotely or would I have to physically go down to my basement whenever I want to do this?

In the BIOS there is normaly an option which is called "wake on keyboard". This should start your pc without going down to the pc...
Greetings
Adrian

[SeVeReD]

Does anyone know of an easy way to switch a PC on remotely or would I have to physically go down to my basement whenever I want to do this?

In the BIOS there is normaly an option which is called "wake on keyboard". This should start your pc without going down to the pc...
Greetings
Adrian

This is what I do too.  I have a bios setting that lets me start the computer (in a closet in an adjacent room) with either a keyboard press or mouse click.

How about this drive for fast ... I remember having one a few years back before i tried the ssd route... but I don't remember  how noisy it is.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136557

[music33]

Could someone attempt to explain technically why SSD sounds worse than a HD?  Same bits for the music, same DAC, same software.

thanks.

[Calibrator]

Could someone attempt to explain technically why SSD sounds worse than a HD? 

I'd just like to add that this notion is not supported by myself currently.

Cheers,

Russ

[manisandher]

Just came across this: http://www.auraliti.com/

Auraliti have some interesting graphs showing that SSDs have higher inherent noise than HDDs!

Both seem to benefit from the SOtM SATA filter.

Mani.

[Calibrator]

Just came across this: http://www.auraliti.com/

Auraliti have some interesting graphs showing that SSDs have higher inherent noise than HDDs!

Both seem to benefit from the SOtM SATA filter.

Mani.

I didn't come to that conclusion judging by the low-res graphs depicted, and their statement that ....

"System cost can be reduced because now a spinning hard drive (HDD) can achieve similar 
low electronic noise performance to that of a Solid State Drive (SSD)."

... would suggest to the contrary.

Without clearly seeing the scale used in each of the graphs, one can't compare between them reliably. If they had shown the noise floor of an UNfiltered HDD and an UNfiltered SSD together, then that would have more meaning. As it stands now, I just view those graphs as mere marketing.

Regs,

Russ

[PeterSt]

I didn't look at the graphs today again, but I recall them from before.

I'll have to agree with Russ here. To me it came (comes) like telling the convenient story. Still some conclusions can be made from it (but never mind for now please).

But I have a question for Russ :
You output directly from the Juli@, right ?

The question of Why will remain in vain, but depending on the answer I will proceed with a PM to Russ ...

[Calibrator]

But I have a question for Russ :
You output directly from the Juli@, right ?

I don't use the Juli@ as a DAC per se, but rather the mechanism to provide the SPDIF output. As per my signature, I take a 75ohm coax direct feed straight from the coupling transformer on the Juli@ card, and then straight into an SPDIF input of the Integra processor, which does the DAC duties. See attached piccie.

Have you got some other idea to improve on that perhaps ?

Cheers,

Russ

[PeterSt]

No furteher comments Russ. I would have when you used the Jui@ herself. But, I misjudged your sig, because of that extra space between where the Juli@ ends and where the line with the Integra starts.

Ok, let me add this :
As we know I ever back thought the SSD wasn't a good thing right from when I had it in there. Just because of the changed behaviour of "sound". Of course you will recall the larger topic about it all. Now, the more inherent not-the-best things are in this system, the more an SSD will mask that (filter). So for now we could stick to : SPDIF isn't the very best for digital transport, and when using i2s you will be hearing a lot more of what's really going on.
This is only one small part of the chain of course. So many more exist.

It is *also* clear that when the SSD makes it better (for you, for anyone) this is the way to go. But never, never make the mistake to have such a thing in, while proceeding on something else. For a clearer example : better interlinks. Better, because they will filter. Now replace your amp with a better amp - and let those cables in ? no. All has to be redone from the start.

It is crazy complex sometimes and 100% sure I make the mistakes too. Just saying ...

Peter

[Calibrator]

No furteher comments Russ. I would have when you used the Jui@ herself.

That is something I have been meaning to try but never got around to do. It's more a convenience issue. I would have to unplug a pair of RCA leads going to the amp everytime I wanted to use the music server and switch back to another set coming from the Integra when I wanted to use the HTPC. I have a gut feeling the DAC in the Integra is better than what is onboard the Juli@, but I suppose until I try it I will be left wondering. I had thought of looking for a RCA switcher, but I try and avoid needless devices in the chain.

SPDIF isn't the very best for digital transport,

agreed

and when using i2s you will be hearing a lot more of what's really going on.

I would expect so from what I have read about the interface.

I'm not dismissing your thoughts about HDD vs SSD completely. All I'm saying is that in my current environment, I can't discern any meaningful difference in sound quality.

With a USB NOS1 in my system the difference may well be more obvious.

Regs,

Russ

[PeterSt]

I have a gut feeling the DAC in the Integra is better than what is onboard the Juli@, but I suppose until I try it I will be left wondering.

Nah, the Juli@'s analogue output isn't worth much ...

[Bigear]

Would 2 low rpm disks (5400, so low noise) in a raid 0 configuration be an interesting alternative? They are faster then a single Veloraptor (and have higher capacity for lower price).

[praphan]

How does HDD (OS and XX) speed technically affect the sound quality ?

Thanks

[praphan]

Thanks for this Juan. I think this is a 2.5" drive right? Also, it's quite expensive for a drive first released in 2009. For this reason, I've ordered a Dell Hitachi HUS156030VLS600 300GB drive from Amazon, and saved £40 in the process!

Thanks again.

Mani.

Mani Hi,

SAS controller board is quite expensive. Which one you are using?

Apart from runinng OS and XX faster, is there any audible impact on SQ?

Thanks,
Praphan

[manisandher]

Hi Praphan,

I haven't actually had a chance to try this yet. But I will do later this week. I don't even know if my mobo has an SAS port (I doubt it considering it's a mini-ATX board). Worse case, I'll order something like this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Adaptec-3405-SATA-Express-128MB/dp/B000NX1P7G/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1318249914&sr=8-9.

Yeah, maybe my thinking on the financials is a bit flawed!

Mani.

[praphan]

Hi Mani,

Please do not get me wrong!  I have no intention to question your investment in search for sound excellence. In fact I admire your guts to try and test so I can follow.

Instead of Raid card, I found some thread recommending this :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Startech-com-50cm-Serial-Attached-Cable/dp/B000WBMU1E/ref=sr_1_3?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1318265187&sr=1-3

May be you should try this before going for the SAS controller card.

Cheers!
Praphan

[praphan]

Hi Mani,

I am sorry to give you a wrong information.

You can run a SATA drive with an SAS controller, but you can't use a SAS drive with a SATA controller.

The SAS backplane connector was designed to accept either a SAS drive or a SATA drive, while making provisions for a dual-ported SAS drive. SAS connectors add a notch to the SATA connector to ensure that SAS drives can only be plugged into SAS systems. This is required because SATA host controllers do not understand SCSI protocols and will not recognize a SAS drive. Notching the SAS drive connector prevents a SAS drive from being plugged into a SATA host controller, which would result in a non-functioning drive.

Regards,
Praphan

[manisandher]

Hi Praphan, yes I was totally aware of this. Actually, I've decided to return the SAS drive and stick with SATA. Some SAS controllers are a lot more expensive than others, and it's hard for me to understand exactly what you get for your money. Also, I'm not sure SAS drives would lead to better SQ. Certainly, I wouldn't be able to use my SOtM SATA filter.

But the big difference in SQ between my SSD(s) and HDD(s) does make me curious to try as many different types of drives as possible. But I really don't have the time right now, so this will just have to wait.

Mani.