0.9Z-5-2

[GerardA]

Peter, did you change something for SQ in Z5-2?
I don't remember Amy McDonald sounded so spacious before.
But maybe it's just me imagining things!

[PeterSt]

I shall be honest ...

Two weeks or so back I had the same idea (in the positive sense btw), but nothing really (or relevant) changed. However, I was fuzzing around so much with my mains problems, that I dedicated it to that and never payed real attention to it. Never experienced it since.

Fact is (well, what's a fact when I say it ) : something with "mains" in general can exhibit this effect. IMO it can only be good, because it really creates the atmosphere of the rooms where the musicians played originally - hence that really becomes profound.

I recall from ONE other situation that I had this effect, which is from 4 years back when I was dubbing stuff for some "production", and had interlink connections I normally don't have (think of my Fireface800 as a mixing console). I even know the albums which it was about, which were merely "various" collections normal stuff, but which sounded so good that I thought I found little gems in my collection - which is esepcially stuff I would never play. This was at that moment (one evening), and whatever I tried later at deliberately playing those albums again, I couldn't get the effect back. I even recall posting about it in here, something with "microdetail".

Two weeks back I had the effect so strong (from other albums) that I immediately had to think about this 4 years' back happening. My focus was on other things though, so I had to let it go and I really can't tell what my connections were at this again one evening.

In the end it is a dangerous thing to judge this as correct, because I also know about electrical reflections (think echo-like) which will impede for the similar effect. In other words, it needs close listening and seeking for anomalies.

But to answer your question  : No, I didn't change anything.

Peter

[GerardA]

Well, I guess all the better for me. I've been playing around a little so that must have helped to get a better sound.

[Flecko]

I just upgraded from 4.1 to 5.2 and made the settings to fit to my actual setup.
Thanks Peter! It sounds wonderfull!

[hwk]

Hi Peter,
I just installed your last baby. It worked in one try. I learn slowly, but I learn!  It sounds heavenly and I'm very happy that Q1 stays low and not leaps back at 14...

[boleary]

I have to agree with GerardA. There's definately a difference between 9z4-1 and 9z5-2. Spacious is one way to describe it. More mid range, fatter, smoother sound.....something like that.

[arvind]

Changed to 0.9z-5-2 today & the big difference is significantly better resolution as compared to 0.9z-4-1. Great job Peter.

Arvind

[Suteetat]

Hmmm... I must be the only person who prefer z5.0 over z5.2.
I have been rather busy and did not have a chance to do anything with XXHighend since I installed z5.0.
I have been changing components in my system and got in new pair of speakers recently so I did not want to
make too many changes but decided to try z5.2 today.
With same setting, striaight contiguous, SFS 500, max clock resolution, adaptive mode, Q1 = 1 (are people still using this mode
or have you all changed... sorry, been away for a while ).
I found z5.2 too dry, dull,  much less air and bloom around voice and instrument. Z5.0 seems to strike the right balance between clarity
and bloom.

[PeterSt]

For fun, try this :

Get some albums you in the Library Area. Select those you want to play the upcoming hours. Now (rightclick) copy them to WAV. Choose for the location you want to copy them to - the location you want to play them from. Notice that this is related to "Copy to XX Drive always", and if you e.g. want to play them not from the SSD XXHighEnd itself may be on, you should inactivate this setting. If the output (the WAVs) are going to the XX Drive anyway, it may be better to again inactivate this setting (Copy to XX Drive). Actually, when you get the grasp of it, this setting now should be inactivated always.
Of course you can ask for several lists of albums in the Library Area and pick other albums to play, which for now means Copy to WAV to the "playback location".

Notice that with the above you haven been creating a temporary playback location, and nothing is going to delete it from there. So, this is to be done manually when needed (out of disk space etc.).

When you have created the copies, select that new location (could be called \PlaybackLocation) so you will now have the new list in the Library Area. You may now select a first album to play and load it into the Playback Area. You can do more if you want, nothing different from what you'd do otherwise.
But do NOT press Play yet ...

Reboot.

Bring up XXHighEnd as usual, and start playing now ...

Maybe you shouldn't bother much when you don't use Unattended (playback without GUI).

[GerardA]

Just wrote some other message and thought about telling XX sounds wonderfull today.
Then I realised I played the same songs I left in the playing area from last time.
Joni Mitchell, Perfect Indigo.
Yesterday it sounded very dead and disappointing, today marvelous!
Maybe this is what you mean and then we will have to play what we left the day before every day for a starter?
See if the next album will still be ok...

[GerardA]

Loaded the next album 'Night Ride Home' and was unlistenable compared to the sound before.
After a reboot the magic was back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PeterSt]

The next version will sustain this ...
(if all is right).

[GerardA]

That's very good news.
But how come nobody noticed?

[Flecko]

I am still amazed by what can make a difference to the sound in computer audio

[christoffe01]

Hi Peter,

I played until today with version 0.9Z-4.1, stripped my W7 off SP1 and the SQ was amazing .

Changed two hours ago to 0.9Z-5-2 with the same settings,
and the heights are gone. The SQ is muffled in the heights,bass is tighter than before, which is a positive effect. "The music is playing behind a curtain."
The magic of the cymbals is not the same as with 0.9Z-4.1.

Please check with "Vertu", track 7 and start at 2:00 minutes.

I'm now back to 0.9Z-4.1.

best

Joachim

P.S. I will update my signature soonest

[stefanobilliani]

Hi Peter,

I played until today with version 0.9Z-4.1, stripped my W7 off SP1 and the SQ was amazing .

Changed two hours ago to 0.9Z-5-2 with the same settings,
and the heights are gone. The SQ is muffled in the heights,bass is tighter than before, which is a positive effect. "The music is playing behind a curtain."
The magic of the cymbals is not the same as with 0.9Z-4.1.

Please check with "Vertu", track 7 and start at 2:00 minutes.

I'm now back to 0.9Z-4.1.

best

Joachim

P.S. I will update my signature soonest

Hello all ,
 must admit to have found something very similar after the removal of the sp1 , with 0.9Z-5-2 , and after the first impression-positive effect I must second with Joachim . Probably 2 courtains .
Going to try 0.9Z-4.1. soon , and listen .

[PeterSt]

You guys are using Unattended and shut off all services stuff, right ?

[stefanobilliani]

You guys are using Unattended and shut off all services stuff, right ?

yes indeed . The feeling is most of the high freq rithm contents are much too low in amplitude , with a strange <left channel> cancellation effect . Also the magic of some female sinngers is going away this way , loosing theyr position . What we  would call sometimes analouge effect , reminds me of the RIAA equalization , which is not exactly painless or anyway depends a lot on phase relations and circuit choices . All through this changes , sp1 RC ( not really much to complain ) and RTM , deciding for myself I would reinstall SP1 . But 0.9Z-4-1 is doing right now a good job with the vanilla W7 . So will wait for the 0.9-Z6 and as usual listen and decide .

[PeterSt]

I would be VERY careful about judging the highs going away. But this is two-folded :

1.
Remember what I said at going back from SP1 RC to vanilla : the balance is crazily wrong, and too high output is all over (besides no mid bass at all). In addition, the now (!) added mid bass masks the too high output.

2.
Nobody says that what you seemingly loose on high output at going from 0.9z-4-1 to 0.9z-5 is a good thing.
Ok, you seem to now, haha.

After listening to more music types by now (but I still need several days to cover for it all) I can say that the net high output seems to have lost on "just high output". Nothing else, nothing more. Just wrong balance.
It -f course- can be so that 0.9z-4-1 is better at this (adds highs again), but I find this hard to believe. A reason for this is just Klaus Schulze, where the high frequency output got HIGHER (opposed to indeed other music). I think Russ said the same. Not that Russ is the only one to listen to (nor should you all listen to me), but this *is* about types of music. Remember, I warned for this.

Of course, in the end we want *all* to be good, and it most sure is not about Klaus Schulze or anything.

Sadly (!!!) I can't listen to anything older than my current version here, because of the integration with NOS1-USB stuff. Otherwise I sure would do that, just because I inherently believe you. Believing that it is all over better is another thing, so this is just difficult stuff at this moment.
It may be hard to say or talk about, but the high frequency output (for its level) of the NOS1 really is so much more loud, that maybe things for me may be too much of it, while for you it nicely freshes up things.

Not sure what it may bring, there's also this :
Reading through the 0.9z-5 Release Notes (so, first version after 0.9-z-4-1), issues were solved (or improved) with Priorities and Core Appointment. Although by itself this theoretically can have led do SQ degration, it is more likely (to me) that you started to use a difference Appointment Scheme, up to different Priority Settings. I even recall tallk about this somewhere back, and it could be from then.
This means that you have to go back to that state also, for 0.9z-4-1. That this may imply that you end up with similar sound as in 0.9z-5-2 is too bad (and not even important within itself), but it may proove that other things are going on at the same time.

Lastly, the last I'm doing is rejecting this or your findings; remember, what now seems to happen to W7 Vanilla is almost as unexplainable, and it just needs guessing what happened.

And oh, it is good to notice that 0.9z-4-1 *also* is from after we all went to SP1 RC ... IOW, why wouldn't you be right ...

Peter

PS: By now I sure do recognize the on/off in the higher regions, of which I said earlier (when we all started with W7 Vanilla) it was wrong only for that. So, this "character" is in there now again. Point is, this is not in everything (so, Schulze again shows the opposite -> pure silk while otherwise it's screaming) PLUS I am as far as recognizing that this is about recordings. But, must listen more for sure. Strangely enough it is this (in my view) what gives a more analogue charachter to it all. From an electrical point of view though, it can just as well be so that the "impulse bass" is eating from the highs somewhere. Not at that frequency, but because things need to recover. Could be capacitors I'm hearing. I may go very far now, but this *is* how I listen these days ...

[stefanobilliani]

I would be VERY careful about judging the highs going away

Well yes , I am aware of that , judging that one version will "do" there and the other version will not "do" there isn't really the intention , becouse is enough clear to me that they "do" .Balance : as a matter of fact , living with O.9-5-2 for the past months in the SP1 RC eviroment was pretty good ,listening to tons of different music ,  and I can imagine a bit the effects of having the nos dac , by memory ,at this quality level ( nos that I dont have these days ). Personally didn't find the need to go back to previous versions for a determinate reason , will take a look at the core scheme , that really likely I may have changed in the past weeks of testing stuff .OK .
.
Thanks for the good explanation .

Stefano

[christoffe01]

1.
Remember what I said at going back from SP1 RC to vanilla : the balance is crazily wrong, and too high output is all over (besides no mid bass at all). In addition, the now (!) added mid bass masks the too high output.

Peter

Hi Peter,

in Jazz concerts the drums are the primary instrument to hear. The  SPL of the Bass is always a problem.
The missing mid bass is a more acceptable compromise than the music behind a curtain with less heights.

Conclusion:

we need version 0.9Z-6 since "yesterday".

best

Joachim

[PeterSt]

2.
Nobody says that what you seemingly loose on high output at going from 0.9z-4-1 to 0.9z-5 is a good thing.
Ok, you seem to now, haha.

Stefano, the last sentence is wrong of course. You didn't say that either. I just tripped over my own sentence construction.

Peter

[Calibrator]

A reason for this is just Klaus Schulze, where the high frequency output got HIGHER (opposed to indeed other music). I think Russ said the same.

Last night I listened to "Picture Music" (a favourite amongst many) by KS, and was most impressed by the clarity and definition I'm now hearing. There is a section about 15 to 20 minutes or so in on the first track where he plays something like tubular bells. Previous playbacks had those bells noticeable but not striking. This time those bells rang out nicely and clearly delineated from the other instruments with a believable metallic tone and decay.   

I've also just finished listening to "The Gamut" album by Robert Hohner's Percussion Ensemble (on the DMP label), and still have a grin firmly etched on my face! I had never experienced that album with such clarity as I have just now. The sound stage is wide and very very deep, and each instrument is clearly defined within its own space. Everything is beautifully balanced, from the timpani drums to the tiny triangles. The style of music may not appeal to a broad audience, and I don't listen to it that often, but it is very well recorded, (being on the DMP label), and the instruments sound lifelike to my mind, which is the true test of any album.

Next up is "Jazz at the Pawnshop" in 24/176.4

Cheers,

Russ (currently listening to "Drive Inn Vol 1 by Klaus Schulse & Rainer Bloss)

[boleary]

Not having any Klause Shultze, I can't comment on the difference Peter and Russ describe. However, there is a substantial difference between z4-1 and z5-2. Because z4-1 will play WMP rips (and I have many from the local library so I can't rerip them) and z5-2 won't, I 've been using z4-1 exclusively. Thus, all the positive changes I've heard with Windows 7 vanilla have been with z4-1. because of this thread I just compared the two in attended mode, so I could switch back and forth quickly. If you want to hear the veiled quality of Z5-2 and how bad it souds in comparison, use Patty Griffins version of Tomorrow Night from her 1000 kisses cd. Her voice, whether one likes it or not, is full of those veiled frequencies; it will knock you over immediately. Lastly, I've attached two photos of the GUI for each version. Switching to unattended caused the high and low volume indicators of z4-1 to turn green, and the z5-2 to to stay gray, which is the color they usually are in unattended with both versions. Don't know if that's relevant but just in case....

[PeterSt]

Thanks for your good outlay.

As you will recall, Patty Griffin has been on our desk before (most probably you were involved). I'm not sure I like her. Doesn't step away from the microphone with her high dynamic voice. So, I was relcutant to try her again ...

I don't have the album you mentioned, so I had to do with with the only two I have here.

"Children running through" I didn't play for ages (the fact that the volume has to be calculated/normalized tells this), and I was quite surprised this worked very well. Nothing of the kind you mentioned, nor did I recall it from ... ? maybe one year back. Dynamics are still very high which is IMO just the means of recording (good). Thus, not only her voice, but merely the other instruments. All quite unnormal for the transients.

Then the other one had to be the one I tried that other day. And again, it didn't last 30 seconds. Should make a frisbie of it. "Impossible Dream" that is.

Now, I'm sure you have these both (because you will have them all), and you may try these and see what the difference amongst them is. Either may be similar to your "1000 Kisses", but if it's like "Impossible Dream", we better have twin frisbies.

Apart from "Impossible Dream" being some 8 dB louder than "Children running through", the file of it also doesn't look good to me at all. Without some more effort I can't see whether it clips all over, but I'd say there is some clipping in there anyway. And if it's not that, it is strangely limited maybe. It is just no good, and that is audible (sheer unstandable).
Btw, I played the "Children running through" at an average 83dB SPL @ 4meters (say, your listening distance), which is a tad too loud for the peaking voice approaching 90dB. "Impossible Dream" therefore played well over 90dB with peaks up to 95dB, and turning that down didn't really help.

Of course I am using 0.9z-6 which is, say, equal to 0.9z-5-2 were it for differences with 0.9z-4-1.

[boleary]

Yes, Impossible Dream does have a weird veil in the sound. It is an HDCD and I wonder if that has anything to do with it. Anyway, I sent you the track I use as a reference for measuring distortion in female voices: Tomorrow Night- Patty Griffin.

Her very best cd is Living With Ghosts. It was recorded on a four track in her kitchen as a demo. WHen the record company tried to duplicate the emotional power in the studio they failed, so they released the demo as her first album! Though not the best recording it is a very honest one and the lyrics are so worth listening to..... would rival any Dutch lyrics for intimacy, honesty and emotional power. 

You've got to give it a listen.

One reason I waited to respond here was the possible fact that 9z-6 is in another league, so there is no use comparing it to 9z-4-1.

So I've been impatiently awaiting the latest!