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Author Topic: HOLY sh*t (by Bill Evans)  (Read 167034 times)
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Flecko
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« Reply #75 on: August 12, 2011, 12:09:28 am »

Quote
. the high resolution version just uses the lower 16 bit as dynamic range
Ok, this was nonsense but I ment something different. I have made the experience, that high res recordings can be "not very loud", because somewhere in the track there is one very loud explosion, like the telarc dvd-audio recording of tchaikovskys 1812. I thought from the figures of many this could be the case here...some kind of unused headroom. But, ok, then it is not the case Happy
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« Reply #76 on: August 12, 2011, 08:45:54 am »

Theoretically (and when things were always done as could) you are correct.

Ok, I only now see that I never put up the XX-Analysis data for the HiRes version (I just wanted to quote it all), and the HiRes version really isn't much different from my version to that aspect. The Hires has a little higher SPL (so, it's a little louder on average) and the available headrom I forgot (and I'm not at location right now), but was somewhat less and not worrying (say 31000 remapped to 16 bits. But what does that all mean ?
Ok, here's that quote after all :

Quote
I suppose you bought the same tracklisting;
The 01 you send me is not of the same length (but within a second), and the average SPL of yours is close to 6dB louder. Yours is close to the digital limit (for output peaks), while mine has loads of headroom. Notice this latter is related to the total album (well, if all is put on there with the same relative level), so t doesn't say much at all. But might you want to compare for the whole album, this is from the XXAnalysis file for mine :

MaxVolume : 32752
SPL : 1546

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For my 01 track :

MaxVolume : 23877
SPL : 1176

For your 01 track :

MaxVolume : 31514
SPL : 2013

My 23877 has spades of headroom (limit is 32768 as ABS() value), but it also clearly did not use all the space there is. So, less dynamical than could have been. By SPL of 1176 though, is so low, that the dynamic space is from very low up to that also low figure of the maximum level used. Compare this with Gerard's track;
Average SPL is almost twice as high (twice = 6dB), meaning that the base level is already lifted significantly. But, his also has a higher maximum level (which indeed could be about one peak only); If you plainly make percentages of this, you'll see that my version uses more of the space, hence must be more dynamical (while the S/N relation on Gerard's version theoretically will be better -> nonsense, because we would FIRST be talking about tape hiss, and that's amplified along with liftiing up the level).

So this is how it works, and the Hires (with IIRC SPL of in the 1200 or something and max level of in the 30000 range) will be the most dynamical. Well, I do not perceive that at all, which can be explained by that one peak being in there, which in both cases is just that peak which is not limited or anything and if you'd calculate the percentages I'm sure both will be rather equal. Not Gerard's version, because that *must* be compressed (that's the (IIRC) 35% vs. 45% calculation I did in that post, while also there's hardly headroom left, and *what* is there, is there for technical reaons (like the engineer didn't want to reach real maximum which is a bad thing for players because of C++ anomalies so to speak).


It is more difficult, because in either case (16 or 24 bits) the dynamical peak to peak range turns out to be the same (hey, what about that 96 vs. 144 dB (without dither) then eh ?). However, within 16 bits there are 256 times less steps for the volume to (gradually) vary, so from sample to sample it would be more rough steps. Whether this is too rough ? we may not know, because first your DAC must be able to follow those rougher steps, and usually it can't, which makes it a nice analogue "filter" (think about this !). This is also while it is so difficult to make a "better" DAC, because all what happens is that the digital steps are followed better, which may not be what you want at all. Now, assumed that this analogue filter is nicely at work, you could even say that what's normally contained in the 16 bits, just nicely stays there, and now ADDITIONAL peaks can be added in that 256 times more level available (48dB). 1812 really would fit in there (I don't know, 120-125 dB maybe ?).

But to perceive something of the music, you'd now first need to turn up the volume with 48dB more than you're used to today. And *now* you just don't want to wait for those guns anymore ...
So you see, your idea wasn't so wrong at all, and actually it's how it could have been done really. But it doesn't make much sense, because everything would break.
Also to keep in mind : where we might think that the HiRes could at least have 6dB *less* of SPL (that allowing for 6dB more dynamic space), it must have a reason. I mean, when no 96+6 dynamic space is in the recording anyway, what to do it for, and it only would make the music softer, the SNR worse, and more (digital stuff) which works out for the worse.

Disclaimer :
When I talk about these things with mastering engineers, they have complete other ideas about this all, because they don't incorporate the real merits of digital. They can't - it's not their job. SNR always has been an important thing though, and not to compress or limit is a known phenomenon / good idea. But there's also practice, and when we (these days) record in digital, how to prevent
a. the level of jumping singers etc. not to exceed digital maximum;
b. the level getting *really* low when they for one time don't jump (think of a level of 18dB less easily);
c. it not being allowed to put out an album which is waaaayy too soft.

And so limiters *are* used, and so compression *is* used. There is no other way.
Yeah, record in analogue. But mind you, attennuating that is a means of compression in my book.


It again is more complicate when we look at the filtering which happens normally in our DACs. I mean, if you think of the too rough stepping (from sample to sample and the level changes), all is totally moot when you see what that filtering makes of it. It is so completely unrecognizeable that head nor tail can be made of it. Therefore we can really wonder how important the above really is, when we first use DACs that devistate anyway.
That for many it will be so that Arc Prediction -let loose on an NOS DAC (of 24/at least 192 !)- results in out of band other anomalies is yet another thing, and that many problems are incurred for when the impulse response is able to follow those (too rough) steps - again another (nothing analoguely filters what's wrong in the base). But the latter makes this whole story of vast importance, and no mastering engineer will get *that* (hey, they don't have the DACs).

And this is still a nutshell ...
Peter

(sorry for typos; I didn't read back)
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« Reply #77 on: August 12, 2011, 10:32:03 am »

Not Gerard's version, because that *must* be compressed (that's the (IIRC) 35% vs. 45% calculation I did in that post, while also there's hardly headroom left...

There are just so many of these versions going around! But I believe I have the same one that Chris has. Now if you compare the CD waveform that I posted earlier to the one attached below, you'll see that both seem to have a similar dynamic range, although the hires has a lower SPL. I've tried to adjust for this lower SPL in the second attachment (using a simple zoom) and if you align the two jpegs, you'll see that they're virtually identical.

I prefer the sound of the CD rip to the hires. I now agree with Peter that the tapes must have deteriorated in the last 20 years or so.

Mani.


* Bill Evans 24_192 Level.JPG (72.06 KB, 1103x298 - viewed 1229 times.)

* Bill Evans 24_192 Level expanded.jpg (167.73 KB, 1125x447 - viewed 1283 times.)
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« Reply #78 on: August 12, 2011, 04:46:10 pm »

OK, last analysis from me  Wink

The CD rip has a higher dynamic range than the hires!!!

Mani.


* Bill Evans 16_44 DR.JPG (19.42 KB, 401x147 - viewed 1217 times.)

* Bill Evans 24_192 DR.JPG (19.26 KB, 400x147 - viewed 1193 times.)
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« Reply #79 on: August 12, 2011, 05:04:09 pm »

... which could well be because of denoising ...
(kind of wild guess because I'm not 100% sure that happened; but if it did, it can be an explanation)
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« Reply #80 on: August 12, 2011, 05:28:24 pm »

Quote
The CD rip has a higher dynamic range than the hires!!!
Is in your case the CD louder or the Hires? From the peak value the CD should be louder...then my guess would be right Happy
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« Reply #81 on: August 12, 2011, 05:57:53 pm »

Yes, the CD is louder.

HOWEVER... this has nothing to do with the hires having a very loud peak or anything. It just doesn't have any louder peaks than the CD. I'm assuming that if you have 24 bits of resolution to hand, you simply don't need to go anywhere near the peak limit. With 'only' 16 bits, it becomes a bit more necessary.

But really, 96dB is already a lot. Even the best vinyl played on the best turntable would come nowhere near this!

The highest dynamic range I have come across is indeed the 1812 on SACD. I will attempt to transfer this to 24/192 and see what the dynamic range comes out as. But for now, here's the dynamic range on a Reference Recording 24/176.4 transfer from analogue tape.

EDIT: I don't think you'd want more dynamic range than a recording of a tom tom drum I have.

Mani.


* Exotic Dances 24_176 DR.JPG (19.62 KB, 402x147 - viewed 1205 times.)

* Drums_Toms 16_44 DR.JPG (18.79 KB, 400x146 - viewed 1170 times.)
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« Reply #82 on: August 12, 2011, 07:44:17 pm »

Haha, my vinyl recordings have a higher dynamic range than most of the hires downloads I've purchased!

Mani.


* Kind of Blue Vinyl 24_192 DR.JPG (19.26 KB, 401x148 - viewed 1092 times.)

* Kind of Blue Vinyl 24_176 DR.JPG (19.66 KB, 404x149 - viewed 1231 times.)
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« Reply #83 on: August 13, 2011, 01:46:44 am »

Quote
HOWEVER... this has nothing to do with the hires having a very loud peak or anything. It just doesn't have any louder peaks than the CD. I'm assuming that if you have 24 bits of resolution to hand, you simply don't need to go anywhere near the peak limit. With 'only' 16 bits, it becomes a bit more necessary.
Yep. That is exactly what I ment by "uses only 16 bit of the 24". As the peak is 3db lower, noise will be 3db higher, just because of the electronics. It's funny. One thinks at first it should be better with hi res but the devil is in the detail.
Quote
Haha, my vinyl recordings have a higher dynamic range than most of the hires downloads I've purchased!
This is unbeleavable. What is the music industry doing? .... wacko.....
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« Reply #84 on: August 13, 2011, 03:19:09 pm »


..... I don't think you'd want more dynamic range than a recording of a tom tom drum I have.


Hi Mani,

I certainly like my music with as much dynamics as possible, and there are no technical reasons why all redbook albums can't be produced with average DR's at 19 or even higher. It just takes some guts and foresight from the recording engineers and producers to do it. Of course we all know that's never going to happen though ... see the 'loudness wars' for one reason.

One example of a record producer who did accomplish fabulous dynamics was DMP ( Digital Music Products ) established by Tom Jung. By minimising interference to the microphone output and recording direct to the master, DMP have been recognised as having one of the cleanest and best dynamics in the business. Alas, they no longer are in business from what I understand, but if you want to experience what is achievable, go a huntin' on ebay or even some of the bigger record stores which may still have some stock.

I did a DR test on the very popular Telarc's 1812 Overture by Erich Kunzel and the Cincinatti Pops and the results are below. Those real cannon's would certainly have helped to lift the DR value.

By comparison, look at a couple of the many DMP albums I have. Listening to tracks with a DR of 23 is exhilarating and makes you realise how much we miss out on from your average humdrum recording.

If anyone has albums with higher DR values I'm all ears (pun intended!).

Cheers,

Russ

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Erich Kunzel & Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra / 1812 Overture
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR         Peak         RMS     Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR17       0.00 dB   -23.13 dB     15:43 ?-(01) - 1812 Overture, Op. 49
DR16      -3.52 dB   -27.45 dB     15:19 ?-(02) - Capriccio Italien, Op. 45
DR17      -4.63 dB   -27.21 dB      4:17 ?-(03) - Cossack Dance from Mazeppa
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks:  3
Official DR value: DR17

Samplerate:        44100 Hz
Channels:          2
Bits per sample:   16
Bitrate:           542 kbps
Codec:             FLAC
================================================================================
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Flim & The BB's / TriCycle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR         Peak         RMS     Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR20      -0.27 dB   -25.45 dB      4:41 ?-(01) - Tricycle
DR19       0.00 dB   -22.86 dB      6:35 ?-(02) - Cakewalk
DR16      -1.18 dB   -22.25 dB      6:06 ?-(03) - Lunch Hour Wedding March
DR20      -0.90 dB   -27.01 dB      5:18 ?-(04) - Sweet Winds Of Change
DR23      -0.03 dB   -27.84 dB      6:09 ?-(05) - Tell Me
DR18      -0.29 dB   -23.77 dB      5:10 ?-(06) - Thunder And Birdies
DR13     -13.63 dB   -32.73 dB      5:26 ?-(07) - High Wire
DR19      -0.26 dB   -22.60 dB      3:58 ?-(08) - The 8-29
DR20      -0.14 dB   -24.23 dB      5:59 ?-(09) - Sam's Samba
DR18       0.00 dB   -23.53 dB      6:10 ?-(10) - Eden
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks:  10
Official DR value: DR19

Samplerate:        44100 Hz
Channels:          2
Bits per sample:   16
Bitrate:           611 kbps
Codec:             FLAC
================================================================================
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Flim & The BB's / Big Notes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR         Peak         RMS     Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR20      -0.98 dB   -25.28 dB      7:56 01-New America
DR19      -0.31 dB   -24.98 dB      6:24 02-Heart Throb
DR20      -0.21 dB   -24.49 dB      8:28 03-At The Hop
DR14      -0.18 dB   -19.82 dB      5:57 04-Funhouse
DR21      -0.93 dB   -25.08 dB      7:45 05-Bergland
DR22      -2.16 dB   -28.69 dB      6:55 06-Street Charmer
DR20      -0.71 dB   -24.87 dB      4:46 07-Boogie Palace
DR20      -0.93 dB   -24.82 dB      3:40 08-Rebecca's Hideaway
DR21      -0.15 dB   -25.39 dB      4:25 09-Invisible Woman
DR20      -0.19 dB   -24.28 dB      3:40 10-Atosha
DR16      -0.02 dB   -22.76 dB      5:13 11-Born to Love You
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks:  11
Official DR value: DR19

Samplerate:        44100 Hz
Channels:          2
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« Reply #85 on: August 13, 2011, 05:29:03 pm »

For those wishing to track down some of the limited DMP albums, I found an archive of their website as at October 2007. It should help in identifying their range.

http://web.archive.org/web/20071023061416/http://www.dmprecords.com/index.html

Cheers,

Russ
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« Reply #86 on: August 13, 2011, 07:44:40 pm »

Try Turtle records. May be hard to find though (= dutch).

I know these as ones for which I had to lower the tripping of Crack Detect ever back.
(Crack Detect trips on too high (= should be wrong) transients)

Just by means of listening : Jeroen de Rijk - Two to Tango (also dutch)
(Russ, I recall I mentioned this one to someone by email; it could have been you, so you might have it by now ...)

Peter
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« Reply #87 on: August 14, 2011, 12:47:29 am »

One example of a record producer who did accomplish fabulous dynamics was DMP ( Digital Music Products )...

Hey Russ. I was an SACD early adopter and actually have the following DMP titles on SACD:
- DMP Does DSD
- Manfredo Fest, Just Jobim
- Beck & Ryerson, Alto
- Flim & The BB's, Tricycle
- The Steve Davis Project, Quality of Silence

I don't own a very good SACD player anymore (I never liked the sound of SACD), but it might be fun to transfer these to PCM (via the analogue outputs - I don't have the time or inclination to get a DSD stream out of a PS3 working) and see what their respective dynamic ranges are.

Meanwhile, will let you know if I come across anything with a DR>23!

Mani.
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« Reply #88 on: August 14, 2011, 03:35:31 am »

The DR plugin is a very educative tool. I just had look on my music library. The highest value I have found was DR22. Nothing worth to listen too anyhow.
I think I found a negative record. The new Metallica Death Magnetic has DR3. Yes, three. I never could listen to this cd because the sound is so horrible. There is a Guitar Heroes version of this album available in the internet. And this version has DR13. It sounds like it is not mastered. And it sounds a lot better than the CD version. I would not say high DR is sufficient for good sound but low DR is a clear indicator for bad sound. The average good stuff in my library is from DR13-17. DR>=18 Is very rare. Also It seems, that the high DR recordings are more demanding on the hifi system. They rather sound bad on a bad system, while low DR recordings rather sound good on a bad system. I think that is the resaon because the average pop production has a DR of 6-10.
My most dynamic CD with a lot of DR~18+-2 tracks is billy cobhams "stratus".
One thing I could affirm for me is: The dynamic recordings I like to hear even after 10years. I have heard them the most. The recordings with low DR, are the ones that are unpleasent and are not heard that often. A DR of about 13 is a mark to make it enjoyable for me, even if I heard the album a 100 times.

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« Reply #89 on: August 14, 2011, 04:35:31 am »

Mani, if you don't mind, what program are you using to measure the dynamic range? And what exactly do the numbers mean?

In other words is the 19 or whatever the true dynamic range in db, or does it stand for something else. I ask, because even the best numbers denote a narrower dynamic range than I expected (if they denote actual db). Or maybe I just don't understand.

-Chris
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