PC Tweak for NOS1 async USB

[praphan]

Hello everyone,

I found this card on CA forum : SOtM tX-USB Audiophile PCI to USB Audio Card. http://www.sonore.us/SOtM.html  Also this SATA filter : SOtM In-Line SATA Power Noise Filter

Does anyone try these gadgets with NOS1 USB? Appreciate your view.

Thanks and regards,
Praphan

[manisandher]

Mine are waiting for me at home as we speak. I'm hoping to be able to try them out this weekend.

But I have the feeling though that Peter feels they shouldn't make a difference with the NOS1...

Mani.

[PeterSt]

I think it may matter Mani. At least by now we know that XX settings still matter (you were the first to tell). So this should be related to this. Ok, could ...

Thank you Praphan.
Peter

[Bigear]

Hopefully their devices are better then their English... 

[PeterSt]

I think it may matter Mani.

I didn't pay all that much attention, because I know that stuff. But if the question was about the USB card ... No. I would even be careful with it. Not that I really know, but I would never use *that*. Well, not for the NOS1.

The SATA card is another subject. So, it was that I was referring to. This I sure would try, plus it is a (by now) prooven concept. Not so about the USB. There's so much noise on USB that anything could change sound (add noise and youd have more bass, to name something).


Maybe good to know :
Filtering of noise is not necessarily a good thing. If you only know that filters will shift frequencies. A. it now collects elsewhere, B. where it may even be more harmful (think amps).
Noise must be guided out. Not filtered out ...
(says me)

Peter

[christoffe]

SOtM tX-USB Audiophile PCI to USB Audio Card.

This card makes no sense in a PC because inside the NOS 1 the
"USB is powered by an internal dedicated linear power supply" . Signals (0s and 1s) are transfered between the PC and the NOS1 and vice versa (clocking) only.

Joachim

[praphan]

Mine are waiting for me at home as we speak. I'm hoping to be able to try them out this weekend.

But I have the feeling though that Peter feels they shouldn't make a difference with the NOS1...

Mani.

Hi Mani,

You seem to be one of the most up to date persons in this forum.

Hope that you ordered both boards. Would appreciate if you could apply and review each board one at a time so you can evaluate its
sonic impact separately.

Thanks in advance.
Praphan

[christoffe]

Hope that you ordered both boards.

Hi,

This is the main content of the manuf. description for the card:

-------
The SOtM tX-USB is an audiophile PCI to USB audio card like no other. This audio card has a unique design incorporating a power line noise filter. It then has individual ultra low noise regulators to power the usb devices attached, the on board ultra low jitter clock and the on broad PCI host controller.
-------

-power line noise filter -
There is no power transmission between the PC and the NOS1 USB via the USB cable! This additional card will have a negative impact to the SQ.
Less is more, thats the philosophy.

Joachim

[manisandher]

Hope that you ordered both boards.

Yep, both boards ordered from Jesus R at Sonore and now delivered and awaiting my attention at home.

I'll try one and then the other, and then both together and let you know what I think.

I anticipated that Peter might caution against using the USB board with the USB-NOS1, but wanted to try it myself anyway. If it indeed interfers in any way with the NOS1's already superb performance, I'll simply install the USB board into my work PC and use it with my hiFace feeding an old Musical Fidelity X24 DAC and my old low-end Stax headphones to listen to music while I work .

Mani.

[Nick]

I have had some experience applying similar principles to pci USB boards.

Upgrades to the usb clock.
Full isolation from the 5v and 3.3v pci bus power supply to the usb board.
Powering the boards chipset and clock with 3x quality linear shunt supplies.
Black gate decoupling caps.

With all of the above implemented on the USB board and the USB to SPDIF music interface that the board fed using it's own seperate internal 5v supply (eg not soured from the USB board, like the NOS setup), the board gave significant improments to sound.

I tried many USB chipsets, some better than others but one thing that was a problem for most pci usb boards was that they oftern share  interrupts with other devices (and we know this can be important) whereas motherboard USB tend to have dedicated interrupts to work from.

I tend to believe Peter that the NOS is relatively immune from USB interface type but past experience says there could certainly be something here.

Fingers crossed Mani for a good result 

[manisandher]

I had a chance to install the SOtM-SATA and SOtM-PCI-to-USB boards today. Here's what I think:

SOtM-SATA: This is difficult to evaluate really because I didn't have a chance to have a good listen before installing the board. But I think there is an improvement - things just sound a tad more 'fluid'.

SOtM-PCI-to-USB: Well, there's definitely a big difference between this and my mobo USB feeding the NOS1. The sound is more 'forward' and 'alive' - exciting I guess. It seems 'cleaner' somehow and more dynamic also. In my system, I prefer it! Switching back to the mobo USB, everything sounds really 'nice' and relaxed - the sort of sound you could sit and listen to for hours. But it doesn't sound as real or exciting to me.

I'm not sure what Peter's exact concerns about the SOtM-PCI-to-USB board might be. Of course it could be that it's actually adding some sort of 'distortion', which is compensating for an inadequacy elsewhere in my system. But overall, it definitely sounds better than the mobo USB... to my ears... in my system.

Oh, and this has nothing to do with the fact that you can switch the USB power off at the board. I'm using a USB cable that has a separate power leg which I unplug from the PC anyway. But I'm not sure the NOS1 really 'cares' whether the USB cable carries any power or not - I'm pretty certain the USB power leg is not connected.

So in all, that's $365 very well spent in my book (though I did have to pay an additional $100 in import duty & VAT).

Mani.

[Nick]

Mani hi,

That's very interesting, sounds like a good result. I think it's time for me to get my soldering iron out agin 

Would you mind saying what USB chipset the board is using ? IM me if you can say and would feel more comfortable.

Best,

Nick.

[praphan]

Hi Mani, 

Thanks for the review. Very interesting finding indeed. I have a feeling right at the beginning that the USB board might have more sonic impact than the SATA filter since it is right at the final output before feeding NOS1. Could you please clarify:

1. Did you try a dedicated power supply feeding this USB board , either linear PSU or battery?

2. Forward, but hopefully not aggressive. Can you please elaborate a bit more of its sonic character. Any fatigue with extended listening.

Thanks in advance.
Congratulation for your well spent investment anyway.
Praphan

[PeterSt]

I'm not sure what Peter's exact concerns about the SOtM-PCI-to-USB board might be.

Maybe this should not be over-emphasized. I mean, it is almost more "you" than me saying it (or starting about it).

Anyway, what would be happening is that noise, when there, (and it will be !) travels through the data itself. BUT, this is about the pure data, and not "music data". Remember the connection is asynchronous. Of course the data goes over a gnd connection as well, and *that* might neak in the noise afterall.
Now one other thing is important, and this is that you leave all the connections in-tact. This is power (+ and -), shield, and data of course. Thus :

I'm using a USB cable that has a separate power leg which I unplug from the PC anyway

It looks like you have compared with that situation. This would be "wrong".

Of course, you may still end up with a better situation than how it is meant to be (by me). But it really should be compared with (tried with) the most normal connection. This means : cut nothing.

I can say though (and hopefully this is helpful), that when the sound is getting very silky - up to lifeless (and more bassy), it will be noise problems. I'm note sure this is especially USB related, and all I can tell is that overhere this especially exchibited with USB, and nothing else (so far). But, I got that right by inherent DAC changes, and not outside ...

And I must add to *that* that when I was finished with it, I had to look at my amp section, and now that appeared to be noisy and "wrong".
In between all lines I already told it : you will go from one to the other, and in the end we need analysers to get it right. It's all really at a crazy detail level. Quite impossible to get right by means of listening. You said it :

Of course it could be that it's actually adding some sort of 'distortion'

But in the end it is all about this :

But overall, it definitely sounds better than the mobo USB... to my ears... in my system.

Peter

[manisandher]

Would you mind saying what USB chipset the board is using ? IM me if you can say and would feel more comfortable.

Hi Nick. This is going to require me to take the board out of the PC to get a good look at it. I'm happy to do this an PM you when I do, but it won't be for a while I'm afraid - travelling for work a lot in the next few weeks.

Mani.

[manisandher]

1. Did you try a dedicated power supply feeding this USB board , either linear PSU or battery?

2. Forward, but hopefully not aggressive. Can you please elaborate a bit more of its sonic character. Any fatigue with extended listening.

Hi Prahpan. In answer to your Qs:

1. I'm using a Seasonic X460 power supply, which has a couple of IDE outputs. I'm using one of these to feed the SOtM USB board. The X460 is is a SMPS, but my understanding is that it has pretty much the lowest ripple on the market. I haven't tried a linear PS or battery, and really don't think I will.

2. No, no fatigue with prolonged listening... here at least. But I can imagine that if a system leans on the bright side anyway, this may just 'tip it over'. The more I listen to the USB board, the more I like it.

HTH.

Mani.

[manisandher]

I'm using a USB cable that has a separate power leg which I unplug from the PC anyway

It looks like you have compared with that situation. This would be "wrong".

Yes, I have to admit that when I was comparing the two, I would boot the PC up and then unplug the power leg before listening. My understanding was that the power needed to be connected in order for the NOS1 to be recognized, but that after this, the USB power was just not needed. But if you say that it's still important to have it connected (for a gnd connection, or whatever), then I'll make sure I keep it connected.

In any event, I've just had chance to compare with the power leg of my dual-wire USB cable connected, and my findings still stand. Actually, I can't really hear any difference with this power leg connected or not...

I can say though (and hopefully this is helpful), that when the sound is getting very silky - up to lifeless (and more bassy), it will be noise problems.

Yes, this is exactly how the mobo USB sounds compared to the  SOtM USB!

As I've said above, the more I listen to the SOtM USB, the more I like it.

Mani.

[Nick]

Would you mind saying what USB chipset the board is using ? IM me if you can say and would feel more comfortable.

Hi Nick. This is going to require me to take the board out of the PC to get a good look at it. I'm happy to do this an PM you when I do, but it won't be for a while I'm afraid - travelling for work a lot in the next few weeks.

Mani.

Mani hi,
Many thanks but I think it's ok, I came across an image of the card and I am reasonably sure I have understood the chipset used so please don't disturb your installation.

Thanks again,

Nick

[hubsand]

I agree exactly with both descriptions of the improvement with the SoTM card: it just sounds like better: more 'air', cleaner LF and less hash. If you need a bigger pic, by all means PM me. I also have a demonstrator available if you wanted to borrow one to play with.

[PeterSt]

Ok, so give us all the demonstrator.

Are you sure you know what you are saying ?

Your posts come across strange to me. And I am not saying this because I am the owner of this forum.

What I like in here - no, what we all like in here is serious to the point reflection of whatever it is what it's about. My point would be : you seem to just do that, but out from a black hole or something.

I am not sure what I must ask you to do (it) better;
What I feel though is that you talk from some general perspective, while there is no "general" in here. Please read how others judge and maybe also notice that this is about XXHighEnd or otherwise the NOS1 for some. On this matter I am fairly sure that everybody will agree that "judgement" goes very different than we did in Foobar times, so to speak.

If you need a bigger pic, by all means PM me.

This *is* spamming you know. Cut it out and post the picture. There is no reason not to do that, unless you want to sell something. And you do.
And you know what ? it is perfectly allowed to sell things, but go elsewhere with it please. Or do it by means of authority. Then it goes implicit. Ok ?

Thanks,
Peter

[hubsand]

Peter: I can't give you all a demonstrator . . . I can circulate it one at a time, but I think Nick was first. If it helps the cause, it's all good. I'm just a fellow traveller on the road to computer audio excellence, as anyone who knows me will testify. The only difference is that I'm sometimes in a position to resell something I believe in - wearing two hats. When that happens, and it's being discussed, I can often chip in with information or assistance - just as you, Peter, contribute usefully to the CA forum, (usually) within CC's guidelines when your products are discussed.

If you find the card promising, you'll doubtless buy one locally - so I've nothing to gain there. There are only a handful of crazies over here in the UK who would be interested in such a thing anyway: I'm not about to get rich flogging them, but I do (personally) think they're interesting.

It's not the first time I've been called strange (though the first accusation of coming from a black hole); probably not the last. But I wasn't going to shoot it unless someone was interested.

I thought it was less spammy to invite a private conversation than posting pictures publicly - sorry.

[TimDH]

I guess Peter doesn't put too much stock in USB cables improving sound, or we would have heard about it.  I have no direct experience with comparing high priced USB cables to regular ones, but I give the benefit of the doubt to experienced listeners who do claim a difference.  If the main benefit of better cables is to minimize contaminating the DAC with the PC power, then what about the Opticis fiber optic USB cable (mentioned in Computer Audiophile)? Complete galvanic isolation.  At that point, the only (??) computer influence left on the sound should be the RFI?

T

[PeterSt]

I have no direct experience with comparing high priced USB cables to regular ones, but I give the benefit of the doubt to experienced listeners who do claim a difference.

I think that would be a good approach. However ...

You/we really must wonder where this experience comes from. And then I don't mean that those handing out this experience are deaf or imagining things, but what the environment is where the difference happens.
But, if I am well informed you have an NOS1 yourself. Ah, you thought to keep that a secret eh ? haha

If the main benefit of better cables is to minimize contaminating the DAC with the PC power, then what about the Opticis fiber optic USB cable (mentioned in Computer Audiophile)? Complete galvanic isolation.  At that point, the only (??) computer influence left on the sound should be the RFI?

Correct, I think.
Or not.

Here too (is it just me being "difficult ?" ) things may not work out at all as they seem. So :
About my mentioned environment, there is no general approach to solve things here; for one it may help, for the other it may work out in a destructive fashion, and for a next problems may occur in his amplifiers;

This stuff is not all that much about contaminated power or noise or anything coming from a PC. It is about how to lead it away from where it should not be. Take out that electrical connection and then what ?
This may be the best but the reasons for it to turn out for the worse are almost more.

Generally you are right of course. But just think about what actually happens when people use another USB cable, and they perceive a difference. It is almost logic that a more noisy connection will sound better ...

[wushuliu]

The SOTM SATA is worth the price. Just installed two of them and the music is smoother and improved depth; I do not detect any top end energy or brightness. However I have a lot of power conditioning products (DIY) installed already.

I do not have a NOS1 but from my experience usb cables are not all the same. Wireworld Starlight (red) is a good price/performance option. USB cables are easy to return to a vendor so there's very little risk in trying them out.

[manisandher]

This stuff is not all that much about contaminated power or noise or anything coming from a PC. It is about how to lead it away from where it should not be.

I'm finding that if I connect the PC case to ground (using one of the ground wires in my 'star' ground arrangement, itself connected to a clean, totally isolated and ultra-low impedance earth) I get a phenomenal improvement in SQ. The sound is transformed from a muddy, slightly hazy and pretty homogeneous sound to one which is tight, sharp and much, much more dynamic. I was demonstrating this to my wife last night and she couldn't believe a single wire connected to the PC case could make such a difference.

Mani.

[BertD]

I'm finding that if I connect the PC case to ground (using one of the ground wires in my 'star' ground arrangement, itself connected to a clean, totally isolated and ultra-low impedance earth) I get a phenomenal improvement in SQ.

Interesting... wasn't your PC connected to ground/earth before?

Bert

[PeterSt]

To be ahead of this : I think Mani means the case itself, and not the mains cord.

I have similar experiences, but try to avoid these things these days, because what can happen for me, can't happen for another (at all times). So, I stopped doing this when the difference couldn't be measured anymore (regarding the development of the NOS1-USB). But this doesn't tell there *is* no difference ...

Let me add that having dedicated potentials (to me and by now) looks more dangerous than bringing solutions. The dedicated -or better, separate- potential, only creates a difference in potential, and this is very much out of control, unless you *really* know what you are doing (and let's say this is not us). Also not to forget : when we think we have all separated (like all the stereo including in that transformer), there's also the antenna working between that and your washing machine ring. Think about concrete floors with the metal support in it ... (nice antenna).

One thing is 100% sure : connecting a device to PE by means of the power cord, really does nothing much. It protects against electrical shocks, but it merely *creates* noise towards the device. The other way around : it contaminates the PE itself (from that device). With noise and offset (sine is wrinkled).

Let's take this all with some grains of salt, because it is too complicated to comprehend for me (and no Google to help really).

Peter

[manisandher]

Let's take this all with some grains of salt, because it is too complicated to comprehend for me (and no Google to help really).

Yes I agree, we should be careful with all this stuff because it's really a very complicated 'system' which will be different for everyone.

For my part, all I can say is that I prefer the sound with the PC case connected to the star ground. What exact mechanism is in play, I don't know.

Mani

[manisandher]

... I prefer the sound with the PC case connected to the star ground.

Well, as is often the case (with me at least) I think I've been lured into a false sense of improvement when doing this. Actually, what seems to be happening is that most of what I liked about going from the original to the USB NOS1 is destroyed. Especially the beautiful balance between smoothness on the one hand and detail on the other - things are veering too much towards the [false] detail now.

Oh and to make matters more confusing, I'm not sure the SOtM products are really very beneficial with the NOS1 after all. You see, when I first tried them, I was disconnecting the power leg of my two-legged USB cable when listening to music. But I understood from one of Peter's earlier posts that the NOS1 needs to have the power leg of the USB cable connected. Yes, because otherwise the NOS1 won't be recognized on boot-up... BUT also because there seem to be some pretty niffty 'USB noise-reducing' schemes going on that require the power leg to be connected.

There's obviously a lot more going on with the USB connection of the NOS1 than us mere mortals are aware of. Best advice is to just connect to the PC and leave alone, I think.

Mani.

[manisandher]

I'm finding that if I connect the PC case to ground (using one of the ground wires in my 'star' ground arrangement, itself connected to a clean, totally isolated and ultra-low impedance earth) I get a phenomenal improvement in SQ.

Well, as is often the case (with me at least) I think I've been lured into a false sense of improvement when doing this... There's obviously a lot more going on with the USB connection of the NOS1 than us mere mortals are aware of.

I really wanted to get to the bottom of this and spent a few hours over the weekend trying a few things and listening to their effects.

It seems that my monitor has a major affect on the sound. It doesn't matter if it is switched on or not... just the fact that it is physically connected to the PC changes the sound. I think that the monitor cable is creating a ground loop of some sort. Now this may not be an issue with other monitors, but mine is an older Dell monitor with an IEC socket, and I think the ground is connected internally to the cable shield.

Anyway, the upshot is that the sound is much, much 'nicer' when I disconnect the monitor cable during playback. A PITA for sure, but definitely worth it.

Try it!

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Yes. A while back I have been measuring someone's system+monitor, and the monitor generated a significant amount (of measurable) noise.
I forgot the ins and outs ...

Peter

[CoenP]

I get a lot of extra noise when I dim the monitor (I mean less luminous, not off).
Furthermore I found the monitor powerplug orientation and place on the powerstrip surprisingly audible.

Could it be me or do I see an aftermarket high-end-filter-monitor-decoupling-plugin-tool-opportunity here ?

regards, Coen

[juanpmar]

I'm finding that if I connect the PC case to ground (using one of the ground wires in my 'star' ground arrangement, itself connected to a clean, totally isolated and ultra-low impedance earth) I get a phenomenal improvement in SQ.

Well, as is often the case (with me at least) I think I've been lured into a false sense of improvement when doing this... There's obviously a lot more going on with the USB connection of the NOS1 than us mere mortals are aware of.

I really wanted to get to the bottom of this and spent a few hours over the weekend trying a few things and listening to their effects.

It seems that my monitor has a major affect on the sound. It doesn't matter if it is switched on or not... just the fact that it is physically connected to the PC changes the sound. I think that the monitor cable is creating a ground loop of some sort. Now this may not be an issue with other monitors, but mine is an older Dell monitor with an IEC socket, and I think the ground is connected internally to the cable shield.

Anyway, the upshot is that the sound is much, much 'nicer' when I disconnect the monitor cable during playback. A PITA for sure, but definitely worth it.

Try it!

Mani.

Hi Mani,

In my case I can´t see differences when the monitor is connected (via VGA) or not. Neither with the keyboard and mouse connected to a hub with an USB active extension.

But these issues, together with the one about the power supply, leads me to think that although the improvement in the software (XXHighEnd) and in the NOS1 will never end there are other important parts to which attention should be paid in order to work with synergy (remember that audiophile word?) with XXHE and the NOS1.
Maybe now, that the NOS1 USB seems to have reached a very notable grade of perfection could be the time for Peter (sorry, we all know you work tirelessly) to take the task to investigate on this hardware, i.e. the power supply he was working on or how to get the less possible impact on the sound with the different connections: monitor, mouse and keyboard. Maybe the remote in his mind will be the solution...

Juan

[PeterSt]

All,

I tested a SOtM USB card in my system;

Measured it and saw no difference (and in order to influence SQ by such a device I really should have). Sounded OK to me.
Of course I already told that it shouldn't make a difference, but it is nice to confirm it (instead of some blahblah only).

There is a difference though, because I was not able to use the 2ms Streaming Buffer for the NOS1; I tried 8ms as the alternative and that worked trouble free.

Maybe this helps someone,
Peter


PS: Mani, obviously I went as far as installing a PCI card in my audio PC, which really isn't without hussle in my case. But since I did that anyway ... it is out now again, leaving space for that other PCI card. Well, you know ...

[jarek]

I have SOTM USB in my system and the best combination for the sound quality is when I use SOTM for my keyboard and WiFi, and plug my NOS1 to one of computers integrated USB ports. NOS1 is the exclusive device using integrated USB ports. I know you might consider this stupid, but NOS1 sounds the best to me when plugged to the mainboard.

Jarek

[PeterSt]

Thanks for sharing Jarek. Doesn't sound stupid at all, because this is what I saw myself (without listening).

Regards,
Peter

[greywind11]

Hi Jarek,

Just saw your post about the Sotm usb card and I have something to add. I tried this card as well and ended up with the same results, eventually sending it back to Jesus. Great guy he is by the way and I'd like to try his usb converter.

I ended up installing a 2-port usb3 card by Startech and it has solved all my problems. I listen a lot more now, without any hangups, FIFO errors and the sound is amazing. Now I need to upgrade my Zalman to i7.

Can't imagine the sound will get much better though.

/Lee