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Author Topic: Clean Power  (Read 14859 times)
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PeterSt
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« Reply #60 on: July 24, 2012, 09:27:35 am »

Let me try to contribute somewhat to this topic, although for one person it is already known (Nick). Hopefully it will come across as "shocking", but I'm just trying to make clear how important this whole stuff is.

From other topics it is maybe known that I myself experienced a few issues here and there, and since they are mains related they are out of (my, your) control. Unless of course we are going to setup our own mains, which seems to be happening now for some. Great, and also great to see back what this is all about. So :

The DC Offset "control" in the NOS1 is what I call "mechanically" organized. No circuitry for it but ways to guide off to central ground or PE (earth) if you want. Now, ever back there was this first version and it worked okay for everybody. But one of course, and this was Nick. Notice that IIRC 5 means of providing mains in the UK exist, and what Nick receives was sort of described a few posts back (but it can be desrcibed more precisely with some Wiki pages about).
Btw, at having Nick's NOS1 back, here it was just okay again.

Next we had the first NOS1 out to the US and our testing at 110-130V overhere showed that the DC Offset control did not work for that. So, we rearranged the lot (a full month of working and trying) and Nick's NOS1 received that too. Everywhere in the US it worked, but not for Nick of course (with his special mains).

In parallel, Mani got in his transformers. All super duper. But from that moment on he had a most nice DC Offset on both channels exactly the same (and for those to whom it may tell something, this was 120mV (while it should be 5-10mV). Just because of his transformer ...

We again changed the setup, and now for everybody it definitely worked. Nick though, still has an issue nobody has.
Always Nick.

This is in a nutshell which is a sort of summarize from what ? 200+ emails ? Something like that. The relation to the mains was "found out" well over a year ago and I am still not sure how to reason it out. So, the fact that knowledgable people in the field are able to show that things matter and is "delicate" for audio is one thing, but the coincidental occurrence of having a DAC which fails on it visibly (and audibly) is something else. Of course, with the actually necessary circuitry in there none of this would have shown. But you can 100% bet that then it would have been audible again because this is a "servo fighting" thing.

As an addition, I can tell that really nasty things can show from the electrical relation to different potentials; as I saw it happening with the DAC chassis, that acting as a capacitor, continuesly charging and uncharging - through air (in say a 5 second frequency). Only when you know how to measure it, it will show. Audible ? why not; everyting is (btw no worries, this was a test setup).

While all is about the phases and how they relate or form (!) ground, this is really something to think about (well, we do in this topic). And still, once that ground is okay in the base, what happens when you connect that device; it will be off somewhat again.

DC Offset has become my life and I got obsessed by it. Electical Engineers tell me that the ground created by two transformers "obviously" is equal to the DC ground further down the line, the DC derived from those same transformers. It is not so. It is not so, because -in my view- the phases hammering on the transformers are not equal in amplitude. DC Offset again. This, while what's derived in DC is formed by a nice calibrated plus and minus DC voltage. Something like that. Now think what happens when PE (which should be the center of the mains phases) is connected to the chassis and "star ground" (etc.) is on the chassis as well. This, while PE fluctuates all over. Can't work eh ? well, open your devices and see how it is arranged for. And know that interlinks connect. So, when one device is setup properly (could be the NOS1) the other destroys it right away.

We are not there with a clean "earth". We must also take care that our devices don't destroy it right away.

Peter
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« Reply #61 on: July 25, 2012, 01:34:41 am »

I did some gardening today  Wink I planted three copper grounding rods to wire up a separate ground for the output of my balanced power transformer.

For a while I thought I hit the water supply to the house when driving in one of the rods but ( relief ) the low pressure fault turned out to be in the supply to the street, thank goodness ! I did learn however that my wife values water to the house a lot more than good sounding music, still its always good to know where your partners preferences sit on important matters like this. dntknw

Anyway I managed a couple of hours listening with the ground wired into the system later in the evening. What a surprise ! There is an improvement as large as setting up the balanced supply a few days ago. Actually it may even be a bigger step than that. There is much more of the benifits I described in the post when the 2 phase mains was connected up but with the house PE. Besides more of the same improvements the stand out things on top of those are the extended, controlled bass, smoothness, detail, and realistic tone and body to the music.

I wasn't ready for how big the difference is wit the new isolated ground.. Two big steps in a week, this balanced supply stuff is fun!

It has not solved my other problems with the system but I am hoping that this good gound arraignment is going to help sort it out....

Nick.
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« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2012, 08:47:50 am »

Hey Nick - that's brilliant news!!!!  but your other problem remains - oh boy is that seriously weird? so we know that your equipment is OK (it worked here without problems) and your mains and earth is now "isolated" (well OK it never can be) from your house mains and earth.

But it has got me thinking - what would balanced supply and dedicated earth sound like here? I would have to think that it could make an improvement.

Gotta say that this hifi as a DIY hobby is fascinating. Much better than going to the dealer and buying the latest greatest product.

Anyway I have another idea for fixing your problem - try these people :-

http://humahealing.blogspot.co.uk/2008/03/removing-ghosts-poltergeist-demons.html

P

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« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2012, 09:21:35 am »

That's what I've been telling Nick all the time.
Point is also : the issue that Nick has got left just can't exist. Not with the knowledge I have. But it does exist ...
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« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2012, 11:45:34 am »

Anyway I have another idea for fixing your problem - try these people :-

http://humahealing.blogspot.co.uk/2008/03/removing-ghosts-poltergeist-demons.html

Paul,
Very good suggestion ha ha. I was thinking I might be able to lead the little ghost blighters away from the system through a star earth system into ground posts in the garden  Happy

Quote
That's what I've been telling Nick all the time.
Point is also : the issue that Nick has got left just can't exist. Not with the knowledge I have. But it does exist ...

Peter
I guess that to good thing is that now i'm getting some good information to exclude possible causes (the Adnaco isolating the PC and the new power set up together with the tests that Paul and performed). This is helping to narrow down the number of areas that could be causing the problem.

Another positive thing is that without this ghost hunt I would probably not have found solutions to other problems like the ripping and balanced power so not all bad !  Happy

I also just wanted to say on forum that I'm sure that no other manufacture would have given me the help and support that you have to try to solve this (absolutely no way). We are quite sure now that it is not the NOS1, but it could be some combination of factors and interactions particular to my system. Whatever the cause I cannot overstate the amount of help you have given me. Many many thanks for this.

Best,

Nick.

EDIT: correction to language
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« Reply #65 on: July 25, 2012, 11:56:44 am »

Thanks for the kind words Nick. If only "that" problem was solved now.

Supposed you'd bring another visit to Paul, can't you take your whole system to him and try there ? That would definitely sort out causes. Of course Paul has to agree with this (a lot of mess going on).
But I already see your horns in front of me - too large to hop in a smal car. So exclude those ? that could be a dangerous thing (when the issue doesn't exhibit at Paul's you'd remain with thinking that it can be the speakers).

Btw Nick, I certainly won't say that the NOS1 can be excluded of being a cause. Of course, your mutual excercises logically tell so, but since this is about ghosting D/A conversion (for others, this is no joke) the first device prone to it would be that D/A converter. So, it can still be an interaction somehow and as expcted it must be mains related (because that's really all what's left I think). You can only prove that by bringing the whole lot to someone like Paul where the phenomenon doesn't occur. If that is proven you'd know what *not* to look for.
Btw, mains related seems obvious, but I would also take into account some antenna working somewhere. If from your audio chain it should show at (e.g.) Paul's, and if from something else (like your iPad charger ha ha) it won't show there, but in your house it is to be considered as a cause outside the mains.

Regards,
Peter

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« Reply #66 on: July 25, 2012, 01:12:08 pm »

Interesting ..... antennae type problems did occur to me and I was trying to think of ways to test that mmmm.....

Out of interest Nick is your NOS1 / amp electronic ground connected to PE - I mean what is the resistance or voltage ground to PE - I guess it should be close to zero if there is a connection via USB but it would be interesting to know.

Anyway if you can't "take the mountain to Mohammed" how about I bring my complete system up to your place Nick???? 

Paul

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« Reply #67 on: July 25, 2012, 01:25:53 pm »

Nick, I'm back in the UK in a few days' time and would be happy to help out in any way I can.

Mani.
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« Reply #68 on: July 25, 2012, 05:10:19 pm »

Nick, I'm back in the UK in a few days' time and would be happy to help out in any way I can.

Mani.

Mani hi,

I really appreciate the offer of help. I am just planning the next steps. Reading around this it seems that wisdom is that the more you connect to a good quality clean ground in a balanced power setup the lower the hum / noise drops. I am thinking that, as Paul mentioned, it might be worth trying some carefully chosen grounding of PC / DAC and AMPs. Even the signal ground might be worth trying to see if I can earth the stay signal noise before it reaches whatever is performing the unwanted DAC conversion.

I am also focused on the differences between my gianclone build and Pauls (there are differences which might make mine more suseptable to noise). Perhaps the easiest way to check this would be to try Pauls amps. One of the most useful test so far has been changing out components with Paul. I think if we go down this route it may need to be at my house to make sure that all possible factors (including antenna effects, speakers wiring ghosts  Wink etc)  are taken into account.

I will drop you and Paul a PM very soon.

Kind regards,

Nick.
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« Reply #69 on: July 25, 2012, 06:52:14 pm »

Hello All ,

I did furter experiments with the balanced transformer ;

And my question is : do we really need the Earth connection ( safety reasons aside ) when using a balanced transformer?

I ask that because the canncellation by itself its so good in balanced mode , that I don see any of the problems coming throug the skin or speakers , when I connect all the gear throug the transformer and *without* the Earth connected . Problems that are easy to test in unbalanced mode and without an Earth ground connection .

stefano .
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« Reply #70 on: July 25, 2012, 08:12:06 pm »

this is my experiment today (diy).
I believe toroidals have better bandwith anyway, but I may be wrong on this .

I did connect PC , Monitor and Amp to it .


* isolated mains.jpg (48.47 KB, 769x400 - viewed 264 times.)
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« Reply #71 on: July 25, 2012, 11:27:35 pm »

Stefano,

I just wanted to say that I did see your earlier question about the circuit I have set up. I have drawn it out and will post it tommorow.

Nick.
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« Reply #72 on: July 25, 2012, 11:41:32 pm »

Ok , great Nick.No worries. Happy     s
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« Reply #73 on: August 12, 2012, 05:33:17 pm »

I could never quite bring myself to spend the money on a balanced power supply transformer as my system has been sounding good for some time. Anyway I finally took the plunge and bought a 3kv balanced transformer from Airlink. Yesterday I connected it and drove a spike into the garden for an independent earth for the hifi system.

And what do I think? - wow! this is a really fundamental improvement. How would I describe it? I think the best way is just how clear the sound is. The tone of instruments is better there is more detail. Sound staging is better. Just after I had installed it I was wondering around the house clearing up and was playing some piano and it was just so liquid sounding very natural very real.

I find myself playing at a higher volume now maybe because it is a cleaner sound.

Anyway a very fundamental improvement that keeps me in my chair not wanting the music to stop.

Thinking about it? go for it.

Paul

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