Are you listening to your room or speakers?

[Scroobius]

Here are the room dimensions on a sketch. The speakers are shown backing onto the pillars and firing down the length of the very long thin room. At its most basic I guess that with the bass being omnidirectional it is shared between kitchen, dining room and lounge but treble starts to beam around 2k and so tends to be focused down the length of the very long thin lounge. That would make the sound thin and bass light I suppose. But that is over simplistic as different effects at different frequencies in odd shaped rooms are difficult to predict. Anyway after some chiselling at the bottom of the pillars the speakers are very close to the pillars - but it has made such a big difference (improvement) to sound quality. I have a friend who is a recording engineer and he has lots of kit to measure in room response I will have to see if he wants to come over for an evening to play with his toys and measure my room. Twould be interesting.

I am more than happy with the sound quality now but I can't begin to guess why it has improved so much. It is not just the bass it is the overall coherence and warmth of the sound is now in another league - totally unexpected but very welcome. Certainly I suppose with the speakers now being so close to the pillars the whole frequency range is being better launched down the length of the room - but I am sure that is far too simplistic.

Why the sound stage should be so deep and away from the speakers is a mystery - speakers should not do that when they are near a wall. Although I am sure that not have a wall as such between the speakers helps in that respect - a hard reflective surface between speakers is a bad thing for sound stage I understand.

Angling the speakers in made a significant improvement the intention being to keep off axis sounds away from the side walls. There are some felt surrounds around the tweeters as well which also help in that respect.

Hey but who cares me is a happy bunny now. More through luck than design though I have to say.

All the best

P

[juanpmar]

Hi Paul,

I guess you´ve tried also the opposite distribution, I mean placing the speakers where the seat is now and the seat where the word "Lounge" is situated in the sketch. If not, please try it. In my opinion now the seat is very far away from the speakers taking into consideration the speakers separation. Also probably the speakers against a solid wall the way I say will offer a more even response, place them around 1m from the rear wall and move it forward and backward at little increments to see what happens with the bass and soundstage, try also a distance from the lateral walls of around 0.50-0.60m to give the speakers around 2m in between them, place your seat around 3m or 3,5m from the speakers. The cathedral ceiling where the speakers are now could make a booming bass. Nor is a good idea to have your head close to the wall.

Best regards,
Juan

[Flecko]

Ok, that explains a lot. You are much too far away from your speakers. Everything should sound better if you change the position of your listening chair closer to the speakers, not only the bass. You have no direct sound there. You are listening to reflections only.

If I may suggest a position...

[praphan]

I like Juan's configuration due to better wall balancing and distance from the speakers. However, Flecko's set up is more esthetically appealing.

No perfect world isn't it.
Praphan

[Flecko]

PS.: Both suggestions are compromises. In Juans suggestion the speaker are too close to the sidewalls and maybe too close together.  Also the room is "damaged" by placing the seat in the middle of it. But as Juan mentioned, in my suggestion the seat and the speakers are too close to the backwalls.

[juanpmar]

Hi Paul,

If you already bought the Get Better Sound book I suggest you to contact Jim Smith by mail and send him the sketch. I´m sure he will give you some good ideas. Keep us informed if he does it.

Best regards,
Juan

[Scroobius]

Wow thanks for the suggestions guys. There is some more information I left out trying to keep things simple. There is a fireplace and sofa and chairs in the living area so speakers on the long wall are not possible (would upset domestic harmony as well). As far as putting the speakers at the opposite end of the narrow room well I have actually tried that some time ago and the sound was truly awful. Almost certainly because of the amount of reflected sounds off the walls (it is a narrow room with very reflective walls). I could not get a decent sound stage at all and the balance was completely wrong. Also it would not possible to use that end of the room or my wife would throw me out shortly followed by the hi-fi system. 

But the point I was trying to make is that the current setup is totally transformed by moving the speakers closer to the back wall it really sounds stellar now. Superb sound stage with depth and totally detached from the speakers. Bass that I did not think possible from speakers of this type. I had a musician friend over yesterday he is an organist - I mean a real organist one who plays organs in churches (or used to anyway) and he was flabergasted at the bass - his Tannoy Westminsters go no where far down as this setup does now (but that is in HIS ROOM). Seriously when I say foundation moving bass it is that good. But not just that the balance is much more even a much warmer and better balance to the sound. Piano sounds totally believable.

The point I was trying to make is that the improvement in sound quality is out of all proportion to just moving the speakers a few centimetres.

Thanks for the suggestion Juan and I will contact Jim but first I am going to scour his book and DVD's and implement as many of his tips as possible so that I do not waste his time.

But really if I never made another upgrade I would move on to that big hi-fi showroom in the sky a happy man - WHAT? never make another upgrade pfff what am I thinking ha ha.

A couple of things I also did not mention. I reduced the off axis energy from speakers to reduce wall reflections which are a very bad thing according to Jim Smith 1. I towed the speakers in substantially 2. I fitted felt rings around the tweeters to reduce the amount of off axis sound. That and the fact that there is no hard surface between the speakers must be at least something to do with the great sound staging I now hear. Also the fact that at least to the side of the left speaker there is no wall so wall reflections no problem. I moved the other speaker away from its side wall also but it leaves a none symmetrical arrangement but it certainly does not sound like it now.

But the interesting thing is that Jim Smith makes big emphasis about the 192-384Kz region saying that this region has to be even to get decent sound from your system. Maybe something changed there.

One thing is for sure I would like to find out. So I am going to try and get some kit to actually measure what is going on. Just for interest really.

I will let you know how I get on.

All the best and thanks for the input guys especially Juan for recommending Jim's book.

Paul

[PeterSt]

I fitted felt rings around the tweeters to reduce the amount of off axis sound.

Don't tell your wife ...

[Scroobius]

Ha ha - you have just given me an idea - my wife is out this afternoon maybe I could..............

[PeterSt]

This was not for fun. It really really worked for the way better. Used it like that for many months. Then I got my horns ...

[Scroobius]

Interesting. Certainly my attempts to reduce off axis sound getting to the side wall has improved things greatly. Jim Smith makes a big mention in his book about reducing off axis reflections off the side wall. Now where did I put those old lampshades........?

I will experiment.

P

[PeterSt]

Now where did I put those old lampshades........?

That doesn't work. Unless you have the size you need twice. Ok, some furniture designs use two of them, but better go out shopping ...



Anyway, I just went out buying them.
Peter

[Scroobius]

These IPL speakers look interesting with the "horn" to reduce off axis response. Apparently there are a few speaker manufacturers currently working similar concepts.

So speakers with built in lamp shades should be appearing at a shop near you soon - you heard it here first folks!!

So it looks as though Peter was ahead of his time yet again!!!

[praphan]

We just have the first IKEA in Bangkok. I saw many of these at my last visit.

The lampshades seem to be loosely fitted to the speaker. Should have a better way to eliminate impact from cabinet vibration.

Regards,
Praphan

[PeterSt]

The lampshades seem to be loosely fitted to the speaker.

Mwah, it was quite alright. The clothing is rather soft and the rubber bands quite firm. Had to, because the larger shade weighs 1Kg or something like that.

Btw, this is a 4 way speaker, and as you see the mid doesn't carry a shade. That didn't work out for the better, somehow.

Officially this can't work anyway of course. Such a speaker has been subject to technical design and all should be balanced out in the first place.
With ports it should be the same.

Peter

PS:
Yes, I got them in an Ikea like shop.
I had more shades and could try different sizes and material (like aluminium).