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Author Topic: Use Your Invert Phase Button  (Read 10836 times)
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SeVeReD
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« on: March 03, 2012, 07:28:41 pm »

On every recording, try it.  IMO one way or the other will sound better depending on the recording.  Peter's player is so resolving I can tell in an instant which phase sounds better for a particular recording.  The music will be either sucked away from me or be pushed forward.  Of all the tweaks we talk about, this is a big one that I think some forget.  Discuss, do you use the phase button? I've gotten into the habit of doing a quick 10 second listen at first to see if I need to switch it.  [Alt I] is your friend.
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« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2012, 05:55:19 am »

Agree with you whole heartedly. Option for absolute phase inversion is a must for me, and has been for over thirty years.
May I please ask what speakers you have Severed?
Thanks
Frank
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SeVeReD
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« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2012, 07:15:33 am »

A gentleman here in San Diego, CA designed them and PBS Speakers/audio built them.  His company is Quintessence.  The speakers are named Stealth.  He had a pair of Wilson Reference and designed the Stealth using the Reference... well, as a reference. heh Mine are piano black and a different driver complement.  I use a Pass electronic xover.


I also use 3 Sunfire subwoofers to catch as wide of range of low freqs at the listening position... i guess I kinda like power and loud oops.
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0.9z-8-3a WAV/CUE files on HDDs via MB FW400>; Win7 pro ttp://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=352.msg4021#msg4021); [XXHighEnd player  Qs 7, 0, 0, 0, 0; eng 4; adaptive; scheme#3; player priority low; thread priority realtime; clock res 5ms: SFS 420 Wink dac is 24/192 w/32bits; Play Unattended; Stop Services ticked; Wallpaper & Show Back ticked - Mirror Image unticked; Start Engine unticked;garbage collect ticked; copy files to XX-drive; *quad arc prediction upsampling*: straight contiguous:>PCI FW800 card>Fireface 800 DAC [latency 2048 samples for 176.4]; usb/ethernet/mb audio shut off @ MB
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« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2012, 09:00:20 am »

Already many years back, when the Inverted Phase was introduced (both of you were there already), I tried to auto-determine how the Absolute Phase must be (per track).
I failed.

The code is still in there (inactively), but maybe today I am more smart than back then and now I can do it ?
I feel the urge anyway ...

swoon
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W10-14393.0 - Oct 31, 2018 (2.10)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 10/20 cores) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 140.19  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
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xp9433
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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2012, 09:24:52 am »

Severed
The Stealth looks really fantastic. I see it got great reviews/feedback also.
The reason I asked about your speakers is that usually for someone to be consistently senstive to/able to identify absolute phase their speakers are usually also phase coherent/aligned, that is, starting with all drivers being connected with the same absolute polarity. Do you know if this was a design choice for the Stealths?
Cheers
Frank
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xp9433
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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2012, 09:48:18 am »

PeterSt
Automatic detection of correct absolute phase/polarity would be a first anywhere.

Do you really think it is possible when in many cases individual instruments in multi-microphone recordings can be out of absolute phase with each other? That is why choosing which absolute phase setting suits many multi-microphone recordings, might be individual listener preference. However, with simply/well miked recordings auto detection could be fantastic!

Then you have the issue of overall system absolute phase, so you might need an auto reversal option (for all recordings) to suit the system absolute phase structure as well as the recording? Am I making sense?

Frank
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PeterSt
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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2012, 10:25:51 am »


Hey Frank. You make perfectly sense in everything. This includes the varying absolute phase per microphone etc.
But, this would just be a matter of taking your chances, and since this won't be the "normal thing happening", the guess would be a good one often. But it is about this "guess".

Btw, I think we (or I) talked about this ever back (when I failed), because there is no real means to detect the absolute phase. Well, I thought there was, but it didn't go by the simple means I had in mind. But as said, maybe I am more smart today and maybe I by now can use some other means to find out ...

Quote
Then you have the issue of overall system absolute phase, so you might need an auto reversal option (for all recordings)

As how I set it up so far, it just goes per the track. So, each track is analysed first, and depending on what's found the absolute phase will be set ahead of the track (so it may change per track). That's not a big deal.
Btw, in the mean time you must remain to be able to invert whatever is found. So, the overall setting. This is because your system may incur for it (an inverting DAC etc.).

Regards,
Peter
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - Oct 31, 2018 (2.10)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 10/20 cores) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 140.19  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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SeVeReD
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« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2012, 05:12:34 am »

Severed
The Stealth looks really fantastic. I see it got great reviews/feedback also.
The reason I asked about your speakers is that usually for someone to be consistently senstive to/able to identify absolute phase their speakers are usually also phase coherent/aligned, that is, starting with all drivers being connected with the same absolute polarity. Do you know if this was a design choice for the Stealths?
Cheers
Frank

What can I say... the speaker is multi-driver and not really a point source speaker. Tom/Quintessence paid attention to the phase of all the drivers of course and the three upper boxes are movable to help alignment/height... anyway, all I know is I can hear a significant difference in the sound stage presentation when toggling between the two absolute phases.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 05:17:35 am by SeVeReD » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2012, 05:17:38 am »

PeterSt
Automatic detection of correct absolute phase/polarity would be a first anywhere.

Do you really think it is possible when in many cases individual instruments in multi-microphone recordings can be out of absolute phase with each other? That is why choosing which absolute phase setting suits many multi-microphone recordings, might be individual listener preference. However, with simply/well miked recordings auto detection could be fantastic!

Then you have the issue of overall system absolute phase, so you might need an auto reversal option (for all recordings) to suit the system absolute phase structure as well as the recording? Am I making sense?

Frank

Pretty much this.  On some recordings it really is a preference of how you want to hear a mixed bag of phase.  I usually end up liking one way better than another... just why I say, check out each of your rips.  Very few times I don't have a preference.
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« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2012, 08:45:39 am »

Severed
"I usually end up liking one way better than another... just why I say, check out each of your rips.  Very few times I don't have a preference."

I totally agree. I even adjust for absolute phase on my Ipod (wav)/FiioE11 headamp/Etymotic headphones, when I am out walking!!! (The Fiio has a gain button which changes absolute polarity - and I adjust volume to suit). Somewhat excessive I know - but for me it has to be right.

Frank
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« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2012, 07:41:20 pm »

Hi Peter,

Is absolute polarity a thing you intend to include in your incoming version ?

Though there are some lists around, none is exhaustive and I can understand why, I am still unsure about the perceptions I should have between a song in absolute polarity and one in reversed ?

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« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2012, 07:54:24 pm »

Salute Alain holiday

As (I think) I said in the previous post in here, I must first be somewhat smarter than I am. But who knows that happens.
Anyway, not for 0.9z-7 ...

Peter



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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - Oct 31, 2018 (2.10)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 10/20 cores) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 140.19  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2016, 10:30:48 pm »

Peter,

Can we toggle the 'invert phase' button on and off during playback or must it be set one way or the other before hitting 'Play' ?

Paul
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« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2016, 11:15:48 am »

Hi Paul,

At the moment it is so that it requires a sequence (for Unattended), like this :

Alt-I
Alt-E (Pause)
Alt-P (Play)

So this interrupts the music.

I my view it can't go without a pause in between because it would imply a large(r) DC change "blob". Thus, when the music plays a (bass) wave which coincidentally is at the top of the voltage headroom (say +5V) then the one-step inversion makes that -5V and with a "blast" this step is taken. Maybe in practice this is doable, but I never tried to make it ...

Regards,
Peter
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - Oct 31, 2018 (2.10)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 10/20 cores) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 140.19  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2018, 04:29:21 am »

Hi Peter,
It's been 2 years since last post on this topic. But I find it interesting. In Tidal MQA, I found this fine vintage album. To my ear, it needs IPhase ON. It would be great to hear others opinion.
Best,
ZH

https://tidal.com/album/77641992
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Setup 2: Audio Research SP-3 preamplifier -> 45 (globe) single ended mono amps -> Altec 604e speakers
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