PCIe USB 3.0 host card

[Nick]

I have been tracing a problem in my PC / DAC and as one of the diagnostics I have added a PCIe USB3.0 card to my PC.

This is something that I have meant to try for a while as it changes the path and the available bandwidth for transfer of data from the CPU to the USB port (note the USB 3.0 card is just running is USB2.0 compatability mode to drive my NOS USB). Now that the card is installed it seems to have quite a positive influence on sound.

Having said this, I do agree generally with Peter that the NOS USB is not especially sensitive to USB interface / cable setup etc. But I do think there is perhaps more than "hot roding" a USB 2.0 card happening here.

[UPDATE I have checked the intel chipset architecture for my PC and the data routes that I had suggested here are not correct so I have removed them and updated the text below]


So with the PCIe USB 3.0 card the move to PCIe bus and the USB 3.0 host controller offer better transfer rates and lower transfer latency ( I think ..).

If you are using a more modern motherboard than I do that already has USB3.0 implemented then it may be that you already have the equiverlent of the PCIe USB 3.0 board. If you have a mother board with only USB 2.0 support but do a have PCIe bus then it might well be worth trying one of these cards. I have the NEC USB 3.0 host chip set and it works very well. I would be very interested to hear if others experience a positive effect from using a PCIe USB 3.0 Card. The outlay is low to give this a go at only £25 UKP.

http://www.ebuyer.com/287036-startech-2-port-usb3-0-pci-express-card-pexusb3s22

Sonically I am still pinning down the changes down but I think the sound has lost some digital hardness, bass is better controlled and extended and overall it sounds like the system has had a day to warm up even when it has just been turned on.

Any thoughts welcome.

Nick.

[PeterSt]

Hi Peter- here are some notes that others may find useful- you can decide whether or not to post:
1 I use the USB 3 output. The USB 2 should theoretically have enough bandwidth, but it does not.
2 Check the on-board chip driver for USB 3. On my board, I had to upgrade for W7
3 Check the memory speed in the bios. My bios set the memory to the lowest speed (default) and I had to enter the correct speed by hand.
4 Use a USB cable rated for USB 3. I was using an expensive USB 2 cable. Today I switched to a cheap USB 3 cable. The difference in top end extension was *astounding*. You will need a USB A to USB B adapter because a true USB 3 B cable is not compatible with the NOS 1 USB input. System is now finally sounding 'high-end'.

This is what I received from an NOS1 customer on March 5th. So, just one day before your post, Nick.

I planned to have done something with it by now, but of course it needs that little converter. So that holds back.

Since the main part of this should (could) be caused by USB3 support being active in the OS (I think even in Nick's application), it looks like an interesting development;

I actively use USB3 - from the MoBo and through an USB3 hub - to playback from. This is related to a new XXHighEnd feature for 0.9z-7 which undoubtedly improves sound. That I use an USB3 disk for it is coincidence, but I - or we may now wonder whether USB3 being active in the OS does a couple of things.

Now I must find that adapter ...

[Nick]

Peter hi,

I take your point about the drivers and OS support perhaps changing the way the data stream is handelled. Interesting....

I have been using the PCIe card and drivers for a week or so now and I am confident the setup is for the better now. My comment that it's like the system has had a day to warm up still stands or perhaps the difference is similar difference to that the straight continuous memory makes when changing from mixed continuous.

I will give the USB 3 lead a go and my hot rodded DIY USB lead and thank you to the other NOS customer for the suggestion.

Looking forward to z09-7 

Best,

Nick

[Scroobius]

I have USB3 on my mobo but have been using USB2 thus far. After a wire reroute I have now connected to the USB3 input. Definitely the sound is better and in the ways that Nick has described. But that is with a cheap USB2 cable I have just ordered a USB3 cable so it will be interesting to see how that performs I shall report back in a few days when I receive it.
Paul

[Nick]

I have USB3 on my mobo but have been using USB2 thus far. After a wire reroute I have now connected to the USB3 input. Definitely the sound is better and in the ways that Nick has described. But that is with a cheap USB2 cable I have just ordered a USB3 cable so it will be interesting to see how that performs I shall report back in a few days when I receive it.
Paul

Paul hi,

Very pleased to hear that there is a benifit in your system as well.

I am currently still using a UBS 2.0 cable but was not able to find a USB 3.0 cable that has the old USB 2.0 connection at the NOS USB end. Could you post a link to the cable that you ordered, thanks.

Nick.

[Scroobius]

Hi Nick - I had to go for A to A USB3 cable. The USB3 B plug includes new super speed connectors and is not compatible with the old B socket.  So I will try an adaptor with it as the email in Peter's post suggests

All the best

Paul

[PeterSt]

So I will try an adaptor with it as the email in Peter's post suggests

Not that I have found one ...

[Scroobius]

I guess you are going to tell me that I have ordered the wrong thing but this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-Adaptor-USB-A-Male-USB-B-Female-/150772230271?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item231ab9a87f#ht_500wt_1156

is what I ordered and converts USB A to USB B (old style) of course the super speed connectors will not be connected to anything but this is what I read to be what the NOS1 user in Peter's email had done.  I am not sure why (without the superspeed connectors connected) there should be any improvement but it is cheap enough to try it out.

Besides the USB3 cable is blue and matches the colour of my NOS1 ha ha 

Paul

[juanpmar]

Maybe something like this: http://hiperusb.com/Adaptador-USB-3-0-a-USB-2-0-MicroUSB-AB-Hembra-a-B-Macho?keyword=UY43

Or like this:
http://hiperusb.com/Adaptadores-USB/Adaptador-USB-3.0-a-2.0/Adaptador-USB-3-0-a-USB-2-0-B-Hembra-a-B-Macho

Here there is a huge collection of USB adapters: http://hiperusb.com/Adaptadores-USB/Adaptador-USB-3.0-a-2.0

What I wonder is if there isn´t a bottleneck in the adapter itself or in the NOS1 because the USB 3.0 port in the mb and the USB 3.0 cable transmits data that are later received by the USB 3.0/USB 2.0 adapter and by the USB 2.0 port in the NOS 1.

Regards,
Juan

[Nick]

I guess you are going to tell me that I have ordered the wrong thing but this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-Adaptor-USB-A-Male-USB-B-Female-/150772230271?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item231ab9a87f#ht_500wt_1156

is what I ordered and converts USB A to USB B (old style) of course the super speed connectors will not be connected to anything but this is what I read to be what the NOS1 user in Peter's email had done.  I am not sure why (without the superspeed connectors connected) there should be any improvement but it is cheap enough to try it out.

Besides the USB3 cable is blue and matches the colour of my NOS1 ha ha 

Paul

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the link, I see what you have in mind. Use a USB 3.0 extender cable (the slinky blue ones  ) from the PC then use the converter at the end to plug into the NOS. I will also try this way.

I would be supprised if the USB 3.0 spec connector made a difference anyway. I have not looked at the mechanical spec for USB 3.0 cable but I was expecting to see better shielding and and a higher bandwith capability similar to HDMI type cabling. Since the cost are in the "cheap-fi" range that we both like no problems giving it a go.

Best Nick.

[praphan]

I would be supprised if the USB 3.0 spec connector made a difference anyway. I have not looked at the mechanical spec for USB 3.0 cable but I was expecting to see better shielding and and a higher bandwith capability similar to HDMI type cabling.

I align with Nick that USB 3.0 cable (A male to A male : hard to find) plus USB 2 adapter (A female to B male that Paul ordered) would make any difference in sound quality compared to USB 2 cable with identical mechanical specification (similar internal conductors, shielding, dielectric , etc). Potentially, cheap USB 2 adapter can be a weak link that can degrade SQ.

To connect to NOS1 via USB 2 B male adapter, pin 5-9 in USB3 connector (http://pinoutsguide.com/Slots/usb_3_0_connector_pinout.shtml) will be floated. Please see attached drawings. However, if we can actually experience better SQ, then it might be that typical stock USB 3 conductors can deliver higher bandwitdh, speed equivalent to those expensive USB 2 cables. It is a cheap try though.

best,
Praphan

[Scroobius]

I am just now listening to a very familiar recording and there is no doubt about it - USB3 sounds better. Count and Dizzie have never sounded better.

Thanks Nick another free upgrade and the next upgrade (potentially) the AB adapter for £1 (delivered free) to use with my USB3 cable. It may or may not make a difference but hey that is the sort of risk I am willing to take.

 

Paul

[praphan]

I am just now listening to a very familiar recording and there is no doubt about it - USB3 sounds better. Count and Dizzie have never sounded better.

Congratulation Paul !

I guess you were using USB2 cable connecting to USB3 port for the listening test. If so, then it has nothing to do with the cable. It is all about USB3 port. Can anyone explain ?

thanks,
Praphan

[Scroobius]

Hi Praphan - yes indeed I am using a cheap USB2 cable. I suspect that Nick is close to the reason why it sounds better when he mentions the improved internal USB3 architecture but who knows?.

But what really interested me is this comment in the email quoted in Peter's post earlier in this thread:

I was using an expensive USB 2 cable. Today I switched to a cheap USB 3 cable. The difference in top end extension was *astounding*. You will need a USB A to USB B adapter because a true USB 3 B cable is not compatible with the NOS 1 USB input. System is now finally sounding 'high-end'.

On first thoughts I cannot imagine why the USB3 cable connected through an adapter should sound so much better but I am looking forward to finding out in the next few days if indeed it does in my system.

What a great hobby this is!!! tweakers paradise.

Paul

[Stanray]

I can find an usb 3.0 A male to A male but I haven't been able to find an usb 3.0 A female to usb 2.0 B male adapter 

Any suggestions for a source?

Stanley

[Scroobius]

this is what I actually ordered from amazon

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Aleratec-240172-Female-Male-Adapter/dp/B000Q6EC16/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331582727&sr=8-1

[Nick]

it would be good to know if there is any difference between the USB 3.0 motherboard and USB 3.0 PCIe card routes if anyone is able to test both setups (my mother board will not allow me to test, no USB 3.0).

I can find an usb 3.0 A male to A male but I haven't been able to find an usb 3.0 A female to usb 2.0 B male adapter 

Any suggestions for a source?

Stanley

I have been searching for this lead config as well but nothing so far. I have some USB 2.0 solderable male connectors so I may adapt a 3.0 lead and avoid the need for an adaptor.

What a great hobby this is!!! tweakers paradise.

  +1  


Juan,  I meant to say thanks for the adaptor links in my earlier post.


Best Nick.

[juanpmar]

This evening I went to a specialized cable store near my home and bought an USB 3.0 cable and an adaptor like the one Scroobius said.

First the good news: before I put the USB 3.0 cable I tested the USB 2.0 cable in the USB 3.0 port and yes, the sound is better than the other way. It seems smoother or at least as smooth as using the USB 2.0 port, but for sure the sound is fuller, it is like if the sound is filling up the room in a fuller way.

The bad news is that I was unable to install the driver with the USB 3.0 cable/adapter in. I´ve tried it more than 10 times in all the different ways, turning off the dac and the PC and plugging the USB cable later etc. No way. Ok, could be the cable or the adaptor that are defective, I don´t know, tomorrow morning I´ll go back to the store to change it to see what happens.

At least, it seems that the USB 3.0 port sounds better and that´s a nice discovery. So, thanks to you Nick

Regards,
Juan

[Scroobius]

Update  -  after an evening listening to USB3 it is clearly better. More relaxed analogue presentation there seems to be more detail but presented in such a relaxed way that I really do not want to go to bed. My wife can clearly hear the improvement - that means it really must exist  -  why did I not think to try it  -  durgh.

Big Thanks to Nick

[Nick]

Update  -  after an evening listening to USB3 it is clearly better. More relaxed analogue presentation there seems to be more detail but presented in such a relaxed way that I really do not want to go to bed. My wife can clearly hear the improvement - that means it really must exist  -  why did I not think to try it  -  durgh.

Big Thanks to Nick

Paul, I totally agree about the presentation. I find I'm just relaxing into the music more and listening analytically less. Glad you like it and relieved it was not a case of tweeters placebo 

cheers nick.

[PeterSt]

Nice ...

It won't take long before everbody is connected by the blue wire. Except me myself of course.



But I see more opportunities;
Assumed that -like I suggested earlier on- it is just USB3 doing something nice (from the OS angle) - or perhaps more logically : USB2 NOT doing bad things, we would be able to cut off the whole USB (not 3), right ?
That again may matter ...

[Nick]

Nice ...

It won't take long before everbody is connected by the blue wire. Except me myself of course.



But I see more opportunities;
Assumed that -like I suggested earlier on- it is just USB3 doing something nice (from the OS angle) - or perhaps more logically : USB2 NOT doing bad things, we would be able to cut off the whole USB (not 3), right ?
That again may matter ...

Peter hi,

It would be good if there is a lead towards software changes here.

Regarding your comment about turning off USB 2 drivers. First I added the USB 3 card and the sound improved the most. Them turned off the motherboard USB 2 ports in bios (so no USB 2 drivers loading I guess). The sound defiantly improved slightly again when the bios change was made. General turning off unused physical devices seems to help but could easily be the lack of USB 2 drivers loaded that made the second improvement.

Best,

Nick

[PeterSt]

It would be good if there is a lead towards software changes here.

Hey Nick - I can imagine that.
But, what do you mean ?
haha

[juanpmar]

Today I´ve tried again to install the Phasure drivers with a new USB 3.0 cable and adaptor in an USB 3.0 port and it was impossible. However the USB 2.0 cable in the USB 3.0 port works perfectly. I wait for some others experiences to see if they can install the driver with an USB 3.0 cable.

I´ve disabled the USB 2.0 ports in the bios as Nick said and all I can say is that the sound is fantastic, yes, relaxed and full.

Best regards,
Juan

[Nick]

Today I´ve tried again to install the Phasure drivers with a new USB 3.0 cable and adaptor in an USB 3.0 port and it was impossible. However the USB 2.0 cable in the USB 3.0 port works perfectly. I wait for some others experiences to see if they can install the driver with an USB 3.0 cable.

I´ve disabled the USB 2.0 ports in the bios as Nick said and all I can say is that the sound is fantastic, yes, relaxed and full.

Best regards,
Juan

Glad to hear that the sound is good.

It would be good if there is a lead towards software changes here.

Hey Nick - I can imagine that.
But, what do you mean ?
haha

Nothing specific in mind Peter, just that knowing that there are differences between the USB2 / 3 drivers and OS behavior might be helpfull.

With the PCIe USB 3 board I think a PCIe to PCI bridge conversion step has been elliminated a may be helping reduce harware bus latency. This has got me thinking again about the new Socket 2011 CPU architecture. It could be that quite a few features may illiminate steps for the audio stream eg illimination of the North Bridge and 4 Channel memory access, not to mention the 12 threads that the CPU supports etc hummmm...

Cheers,

Nick.

[Gerard]

Like to try it! 

(For the Dutch) Found the same one i think at www.conrad.nl

973583 - 89  (put this in the search area)

[PeterSt]

Gerard, that links to your shopping card or something. So for "us" that link is dead ...

[PeterSt]

Today I´ve tried again to install the Phasure drivers with a new USB 3.0 cable and adaptor in an USB 3.0 port and it was impossible. However the USB 2.0 cable in the USB 3.0 port works perfectly. I wait for some others experiences to see if they can install the driver with an USB 3.0 cable.

Juan, I read this but couldn't make much sense out of it. IOW ... do you actually have a problem, or not ?

And I mean ... I don't see the problem with installing the Phasure drivers "on to" that USB3 port, as long as it can go with a USB2 cable. Well, that seems what you are implying ?

Regards,
Peter

[Nick]

I have tried what I think of as an extreamly effective DIY USB 2 lead on the USB 3 port this afternoon and found that there is quite a noticable improvment in sound. When used on the usb 2 port this cable is better than a standard cable but exposed a sharpness in the high frequency so I did not use it day to day. Now when used with the USB 3 port it has a VERY nice high presentation and first impresions are that it is noticably better than a "standard" USB 2 cable.

I think I can see why a fellow NOS user sent the comment below to  Peter (Peter published this earlier in this thread).

"4 Use a USB cable rated for USB 3. I was using an expensive USB 2 cable. Today I switched to a cheap USB 3 cable. The difference in top end extension was *astounding*. You will need a USB A to USB B adapter because a true USB 3 B cable is not compatible with the NOS 1 USB input. System is now finally sounding 'high-end'."

Tests with genuine USB 3 cables and adapters to follow.

Nick

[juanpmar]

Today I´ve tried again to install the Phasure drivers with a new USB 3.0 cable and adaptor in an USB 3.0 port and it was impossible. However the USB 2.0 cable in the USB 3.0 port works perfectly. I wait for some others experiences to see if they can install the driver with an USB 3.0 cable.

Juan, I read this but couldn't make much sense out of it. IOW ... do you actually have a problem, or not ?

And I mean ... I don't see the problem with installing the Phasure drivers "on to" that USB3 port, as long as it can go with a USB2 cable. Well, that seems what you are implying ?

Regards,
Peter

Sorry, what I wanted to say is that I only can use the USB 3.0 port with a USB 2.0 cable because if I put a USB 3.0 cable in place the USB 2.0 cable
(in the same USB 3.0 port)  the sound device (Phasure dac) disappears and it is impossible to install the driver again, unless I return to the USB 2.0 cable. So now I´m listening music with a USB 2.0 cable in a USB 3.0 port.

And it wasn´t a problem of the USB 3.0 cable or the adapter because I changed both for another new ones. I´d like to know is if someone else have the same problem. Repeat: No way to install the Phasure driver if I use a USB 3.0 cable in the USB 3.0 port connected with an adapter to the NOS 1.

Best regards,
Juan

[Gerard]

Gerard, that links to your shopping card or something. So for "us" that link is dead ...

Sorry 

changed it. 

[Scroobius]

Hi Nick,

What is different about your DIY USB2 cable compared with a standard USB2 cable presumably they are both A male to B male.

Cheers

Paul

[Nick]

Hi Nick,

What is different about your DIY USB2 cable compared with a standard USB2 cable presumably they are both A male to B male.

Cheers

Paul

Paul hi,

I copied this out of an earlier post. The cable is just a lose plaited  one made from seperate sliver solid cores with ptfe insulation. Connectors are standard USB 2 solderable items from Maplin.

"When I was using a synchronous usb interface (a much modded m audio transit) I tried a lot of usb cables and they did make a difference. The best setup by far was a diy unshielded woven cable with 3 hot wires and 2 earth all 0.5mm silver. The cable was just under a meter with only signal, no power. It beat all comers and made a noticeable difference to sound quality."

Wire core count is two for signal live, two for signal earth and one for power earth, five in total the cable does not have +5v connection. Apart form the hi harshness mentioned above with the NOS its always been much better than a standard cable.

Best nick

[PeterSt]

(in the same USB 3.0 port)  the sound device (Phasure dac) disappears and it is impossible to install the driver again,

Hi Juan - I think you should say here that the NOS1 just can't be found. I mean, when on a same port the driver has been installed once (in your case via a USB2 cable), that stays. So "won't install again" can not be in order (unless you explicitly uninstalled it of course).

Peter

[PeterSt]

FYI (mainly Juan) :

Signal is to be connected, signal ground is to be connected, shield is to be connected. +5V is allowed to stay out, but preferred to stay in (ESD protection stuff).

Don't mess with the shield; Don't connect it differently from how it is in USB2. Notice though that I never looked at the topology of USB3. Don't connect ground to the shield and think to be done with it. Check the DC Offset to be sure that is not mangled with.
Don't use USB hubs for this connection, although I can inagine that USB3 can handle it.

Peter

[juanpmar]

(in the same USB 3.0 port)  the sound device (Phasure dac) disappears and it is impossible to install the driver again,

Hi Juan - I think you should say here that the NOS1 just can't be found. I mean, when on a same port the driver has been installed once (in your case via a USB2 cable), that stays. So "won't install again" can not be in order (unless you explicitly uninstalled it of course).

Peter

Hi Peter,

Ok, the NOS1 can´t be found. I unplugged the USB 3.0 cable, turned the NOS1 off, plugged it again etc. and no way to find the NOS1. I did it in all the possible ways...
When I use a USB 2.0 cable in place the USB 3.0 cable the NOS 1 is there since the first moment.

FYI (mainly Juan) :

Signal is to be connected, signal ground is to be connected, shield is to be connected. +5V is allowed to stay out, but preferred to stay in (ESD protection stuff).

Don't mess with the shield; Don't connect it differently from how it is in USB2. Notice though that I never looked at the topology of USB3. Don't connect ground to the shield and think to be done with it. Check the DC Offset to be sure that is not mangled with.
Don't use USB hubs for this connection, although I can inagine that USB3 can handle it.

Peter

I use only one a standard USB 3.0 cable as it is sold in the store with no modification at all and an adaptor.

Is there any other thing I can do to "find" the NOS1 when I use the USB 3.0 cable?.

Best regards,
Juan

[CoenP]

Nice experiment, but no success.

I reinstalled XX driver on USB3 port (afterr uninstalling). Updated the usb3 driver, rebooted and the dirverpanel finds the NOS1 USB. Default XX USB cable is used.

Now starting to pay music on XX nothing happens and then a message "set state (pause) on error pin" appears.

Am I overlooking something?

regards, Coen

[PeterSt]

Am I overlooking something?

I don't think so. USB behaves different from non-USB means, and I know what had to be done to let it all work by one means of "coding". The "paused pin" is right in the middle of that.

In the mean time "we" can't do anything with it, because at least I can't follow how you all connect things, while in the other mean time it looks quite sure that as many means have been applied as attempt are being made.

So, what about a 100% clear recap from someone who has it working ?

Thanks,
Peter


PS: Maybe it is not a good idea to uninstall the driver first; when it is "physically installed" more needs to happen than when it is installed automatically from already present sources, and  don't ask me how that works out to real merits, while doing these undoubtedly strange things in the first place.

[CoenP]

Well strange things happen !

If anyone feels like giving a clue, please feel free.

USB3 connection is via one of the two motherboard-backpanel usb3.0 ports. USB3 is driven by a ETRON 168 chip from the PCIe bus on the motherboard. Driver is updated to version 1.0.0.105 from Gigabyte's mobo homepage.
I did no specific settings in the BIOS on the USB or memory side nor any OS related tweaks.

I use the default NOS1 simple USB cable from this port to the NOS.

Apparently the driver 'sees' the NOS, but has trouble streaming from the XX application.

regards, Coen
 

[PeterSt]

Then maybe it's one way traffic only in your situation (streaming requires talk back to the DAC in a somewhat more heavy fashion).

If you can't change sample rates either, zero bytes return (well, a hunch).

Peter

[Nick]

Well strange things happen !

If anyone feels like giving a clue, please feel free.

USB3 connection is via one of the two motherboard-backpanel usb3.0 ports. USB3 is driven by a ETRON 168 chip from the PCIe bus on the motherboard. Driver is updated to version 1.0.0.105 from Gigabyte's mobo homepage.
I did no specific settings in the BIOS on the USB or memory side nor any OS related tweaks.

I use the default NOS1 simple USB cable from this port to the NOS.

Apparently the driver 'sees' the NOS, but has trouble streaming from the XX application.

regards, Coen
 

Coen hi

I have also seen this "pin" error come up one time when I was hot plugging the NOS USB to try a different cable but normally even when hot plugging it just does not happen.

Assuming that the drivers are all correct for the USB port, my guess is that it may be a difference in the way that your mobo port detects if the connected device is USB 2 or USB 3 compatible or an issue with the mobo USB 2 backwards compatibility.

You could always try one of the cheap PCIe cards that I have used which seems to work ok.

Its just a StarTech branded card if you need to find a local retail source.

http://www.startech.com

http://www.ebuyer.com/287036-startech-2-port-usb3-0-pci-express-card-pexusb3s22



I dropped Gerard a PM last night to explain the steps of how I did the install using the PCIe USB card which I will post (I did not keep a copy when I sent the PM)

Regards,

Nick.

[juanpmar]

Hi,

Does anyone tried to connect the USB 3.0 port to the NOS1 with an USB 3.0 cable (with an adapter)?.

I wonder if you have the same problems as me to find the NOS1 with this kind of connection.

Best regards,
Juan

[Nick]

Hi,

Does anyone tried to connect the USB 3.0 port to the NOS1 with an USB 3.0 cable (with an adapter)?.

I wonder if you have the same problems as me to find the NOS1 with this kind of connection.

Best regards,
Juan

Juan hi,

I received a USB 3 extension type cable and adaptor this morning. All works ok from the PCIe USB 3 card. First impressions of sound are very posertive, all the detail and relaxed presentation of my home made cable but with more polished highs. A Very enjoyable sound. I am thinking of soldering a usb2 b type connector to the cable to iliminate the need for and adaptor.

I will post some links to the cable and adaptor I bought.

Cheers,

Nick.

[Gerard]

Nick,

Not just a minor tweak but IMO a  big one. Indeed extra detail, much more bass and indeed very tight. In a way there is bit more stereo or that is caused by something else. The sound is warmer. I am very pleased with what you have discovered!!!

Thanx for trying this...


 

[juanpmar]

Hi Nick,

Thanks for answering my question. Please post some images or links.

Today I´m going to reinstall all the OS in my music Pc and thus eliminate the partition I have in the main hdd. I want to keep things as simple as possible and btw see if I can solve the problem with my USB 3.0 connection.

Well another issue arises, if the USB 3.0 makes a difference in the sound quality why not could have an influence also the different kind of USB cables, as Joachim (Christoffe) said?

Best regards,
Juan

[CoenP]

Then maybe it's one way traffic only in your situation (streaming requires talk back to the DAC in a somewhat more heavy fashion).

If you can't change sample rates either, zero bytes return (well, a hunch).

Peter

Good hunch. The driver panel discovers the nos, but it is not possible to change the settings (error messge appears).

Regards, Coen

[Scroobius]

I received my USB 3A  to 2B adaptor this morning and I have now installed the USB 3 cable (my wife loves it - the blue cable matches my blue NOS1 perfectly - she is very particular about that sort of thing - and if she is happy I am *allowed* to be happy).

After plugging in the new adapter and USB3 cable the NOS1 USB device was not recognised by the PC but after powering down NOS1 and then switching on NOS1 main power switch and then the DAC switch the USB was recognised and everything works fine.

Over the last few days of listening (cheapo USB2 cable) I have been really impressed by how good USB3 sounds - a very significant improvement in all the areas stated by others in other posts in this thread.

A quick listen to the USB3 cable indicates a further improvement but I will need to listen further to be sure. I will report back soon.

I just love cheap upgrades   nice one Nick aka "Chief Tweaker").

Paul

[CoenP]

Nick,

Thanks for the tip. Since it doesn't work i disabled the motherboard usb3 chip in the bios.

The usb3 cable makes no difference in making it work. It does sound however quite different from the regular NOS1 usb2 cable. It sounds like a different trade off, not shure yet if it is worthy of the label "improvement".

Regards, Coen

[CoenP]

Today I hopped into a PC store (they do still exist!) and got myself a nice oem western digital usb3 pcie card which has the NEC chip on board.

Installing was a breeze and amazingly music appeared when the nos1 was plugged into an usb3 port! After playing some music I saw in the mobo manual that the i5 (lga1155) has a native pcie bus (for the gpu) and replaced the usb3 card to the connected pcie16x slot to give this a shot.

This last move gave a different type of sound, but more importantly with now and then some cracks. In the driver panel the usb and fifo errorcounters stepped up in the same pace. Not surprisingly these cracks coincided with a sfs driver cycle in which the cpu is loaded at a peak.
Moving the card back to the chipset pcie bus, no more errors appeared. One wonders what effects a graphics card in this place might have on the interaction with the cpu, but that is another topic !

Anyway, I immediately liked the fresh and open presentation dispite a slight electronicness that accompanies a lot of new components. Let's give the mobo and card a little time to get used to eachother and observe again.

Thanks again for the encouragement,

Regards, Coen

[Scroobius]

After a couple of days listening to the USB3 cable I can confirm that it does seem to be an improvement on the USB2 cable connected to the USB3 port. The sound seems to have even more detail but is smoother & easier to listen to. It is not clear to me why the cable should make a difference when there are only 4 connections into the NOS1 USB2 port and considering just how well engineered the overall USB connection is. Maybe I am just kidding my self but I do not think so never before has my system presented so much detail so effortlessly - it really has the kind of sound where you can enjoy listening to just about anything and just want to stay up all night listening to it. Can it really get better than this? well we all know the answer to that is yes with 7 on the horizon.
P

[Nick]

After a couple of days listening to the USB3 cable I can confirm that it does seem to be an improvement on the USB2 cable connected to the USB3 port. The sound seems to have even more detail but is smoother & easier to listen to. It is not clear to me why the cable should make a difference when there are only 4 connections into the NOS1 USB2 port and considering just how well engineered the overall USB connection is. Maybe I am just kidding my self but I do not think so never before has my system presented so much detail so effortlessly - it really has the kind of sound where you can enjoy listening to just about anything and just want to stay up all night listening to it. Can it really get better than this? well we all know the answer to that is yes with 7 on the horizon.
P

Paul,

I think you have hit the USB3 port and USB3 cable sounds dead on. Very detailed but really easy and enjoyable to listen to, particularly with the USB 3 port.
There must be something in the USB 2 chipsets / USB 2 drivers / PCI bus or whatever that sure generates a sonic signature.

Just one thing left for me to work on with Peter to get things really tuned in my system.

A very pleased Nick 

[JohanZ]

After a couple of days listening to the USB3 cable I can confirm that it does seem to be an improvement on the USB2 cable connected to the USB3 port.

What kind of USB3 cabel did You use? Do You use an Adapter to connect to the NOS DAC USB? Can't find a Shop in the Netherlands for an adapter (USB3 A to USB2 B) ?

[Stanray]

You could use USB 3 A male to USB 3 A male cable and an USB 2 female A to male B adapter. . . . ?

www.allekabels.nl

Stanley

[CoenP]

What kind of USB3 cabel did You use? Do You use an Adapter to connect to the NOS DAC USB? Can't find a Shop in the Netherlands for an adapter (USB3 A to USB2 B) ?

I bought a USB3 'elongation cable' with a male USB-A on one end and female USB-A on the other. The female USB-A fits in any USB2 converter I had at home (ie standard A-B in most USB 'toolkits'). Most shops carry USB2 converters, for instance Mycom sells a generic converter with all micro and macro USB2 options (all male-to-male!).

regards, Coen

[Gerard]

After a couple of days listening to the USB3 cable I can confirm that it does seem to be an improvement on the USB2 cable connected to the USB3 port.

What kind of USB3 cabel did You use? Do You use an Adapter to connect to the NOS DAC USB? Can't find a Shop in the Netherlands for an adapter (USB3 A to USB2 B) ?

Hey Johan,

I bought this at www.allekabels.nl

Artikelnummer 926 | USB Verloopstekker

Artikelnummer 1084072 | USB 3.0 Kabel

Grtz 

[Stanray]

Yep, that's what I was planning. Please let us know if and how it works 

Stanley

[praphan]

Hello Tweakers,

In this thread, I think we have addressed at least three factors which affect sound quality/ sonic signature. They are:

1. USB cable : (USB3.0 + adapter) vs USB2
2. USB controllers : some uses on-board USB3.0 controller (such as NEC on ASUS X58), some uses USB3.0 PCIe card to compare with plain USB2 port on mobo. As for me, I use PCI USB2 host controller.
3. Bios control on USB function : disabling or enabling USB3 / USB2 hardware controllers by the Bios

I am one of those on the league that believes in different SQ coming from different quality of USB cable. I did the test and ended up using mid price Kimber Kable USB cord since day one after getting my NOS1 back from upgrade. Presentation is more vivid, detail and less edgy. I guess that stock USB3.0 blue cable may be built with better conductor and mechanical construction and hence giving better SQ like expensive USB2 cable.

With Kimber Kable, I did several testings with it connecting to

(a) USB2 mobo port
(b) USB3 mobo port (controlled by NEC chip)
(c) USB2 port on SOtM tx PCI USB2 host

I compared (a) and (c) many months back when I bought SOtM tx card and I stick with it since then.

The first impression with USB3.0 port on mobo was interesting. Fuller sound with more body and seems like less edgy high.  However, the more I listen the more I can feel some untidiness in the music I heard. I think someone ever mentioned about echo in this thread. But when I checked back, the text was removed. Not sure that echo is the right vocabulary. I would say the note is diffused. I can hear this kind of diffused note on piano instrument clearly especially on "I'm a Fool to Want You" track in Tsuyoshi Yamamoto Trio's Midnight Sugar. Yamamoto rolled his fingers a lot on the upper top three octaves of the piano (starting from tenor C key 52 up). These notes have crisper and tidier presentation from SOtM USB2 than my on-mobo USB3 port. Notes from USB3 have unrealistic sustaining sound as if Yamamoto applied the right pedal. I can even hear the diffused notes from part of his play which was supposed to be "staccato".

I still prefer USB2 out from SOtM. But I learnt one value added advise here ie. disable the onboard USB2 controller by BIOS (tried disable USB3 controller too but don't like it).

Just my view on my equipments.

Best regards,
Praphan

[Nick]

Hi,

Does anyone tried to connect the USB 3.0 port to the NOS1 with an USB 3.0 cable (with an adapter)?.

I wonder if you have the same problems as me to find the NOS1 with this kind of connection.

Best regards,
Juan

Juan hi,

I received a USB 3 extension type cable and adaptor this morning. All works ok from the PCIe USB 3 card. First impressions of sound are very posertive, all the detail and relaxed presentation of my home made cable but with more polished highs. A Very enjoyable sound. I am thinking of soldering a usb2 b type connector to the cable to iliminate the need for and adaptor.

I will post some links to the cable and adaptor I bought.

Cheers,

Nick.

Juan hi,

This is the USB 3 cable I bought,

http://www.amazon.co.uk/LINDY-USB-3-0-Cable-Premium/dp/B006NYGIZ8/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1332184352&sr=8-9

And the adaptor.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Aleratec-240172-Female-Male-Adapter/dp/B000Q6EC16/ref=sr_1_8?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1332184550&sr=1-8

Regards,

Nick.

[Gerard]

I think someone ever mentioned about echo in this thread. But when I checked back, the text was removed.

I did mention about echo but replaced it in stereo because i thougt it was not the correct word for it. Not sure about my change also. 

 

[juanpmar]

Hi Nick,

Thanks for your links, your USB 3.0 cable looks great.
Today I´ve reinstalled the OS with the hope of fixing it up to use my USB 3.0 cable/adaptor. No way, I don´t know why but with this cable in either USB 2.0 or USB 3.0 ports it´s impossible to find the NOS1. And I don´t think it is a problem of my cable but who knows, could you install yours with no problem?.

Best regards,
Juan

[PeterSt]

Juan, I wanted to mention it before, but I am not sure about it at all ...

For USB3 there's a "USB3 Monitor" (something like that name) process/service. With Minimized OS that won't be there, unless you exclude it from the shutdown list. Maybe, just maybe that is needed here ?
I use USB3 discs without it (I uninstalled it), so it won't be about that. But it should be about something ...

Peter

[juanpmar]

Hi Peter,

Something like a USB 3.0 monitor? I never saw that before, I´ll try to find it. When I reinstalled the OS I tried to connect the NOS1 even before I installed the XXHighEnd and I couldn´t find the NOS1, nor after XXHighEnd was installed.

As the use of the USB 3.0 port is a clear improvement I wonder if wouldn´t be necessary an upgrade in the NOS1 to make it able to take the full advantage of USB 3.0.

Best regards,
Juan

[PeterSt]

As the use of the USB 3.0 port is a clear improvement

I wouldn't be too sure about that ... yet.
This is not at all what I perceive from the various posts.

Btw, I am waithing for my own "gear" to arrive, so I finally can try something myself ...

Peter

[Gerard]

Peter,

What also should be tested is a PCIe usb2 card. Or do you have such ordered.

Or would that not be?

 

[Nick]

Peter,

What also should be tested is a PCIe usb2 card. Or do you have such ordered.

Or would that not be?

 

Gerard hi,

I have tried PCIe USB2 cards in the past. Probably because no manufacture wants to invest in production of a native PCIe USB2 chipset all of the ones that I have looked at are just a standard PCI USB 2 chip (as you would find on a PCI USB 2 card) with a PCIe to PCI bridge chip placed in front of it. This steps the bus speed back down to PCI bandwidth and is another step in the chain. The sound when tested was broadly similar to a normal PCI USB 2 card, possible slightly worse. I am not sure this would be worth testing.

Best,

Nick.

[Nick]

As the use of the USB 3.0 port is a clear improvement

I wouldn't be too sure about that ... yet.
This is not at all what I perceive from the various posts.

Btw, I am waithing for my own "gear" to arrive, so I finally can try something myself ...

Peter

I have also been looking for patterns in the reports.

I was thinking that the maximum benefit (assuming hardware and bus speed contribute as well as software) would be for folks who fit a PCIe USB card to older motherboards with only USB 2 support but access to PCIe buses. This is the case for my PC.

Interesting to see that Praphan seems to have had minimal benefit using mobo USB3 ports (if I am correct) on a high spec PC but Paul also on mobo USB 3 (again if I am correct) and is getting heavenly results  .

Cheers Nick.

[juanpmar]

Interesting to see that Praphan seems to have had minimal benefit using mobo USB3 ports (if I am correct) on a high spec PC but Paul also on mobo USB 3 (again if I am correct) and is getting heavenly results  .

Cheers Nick.

Maybe the people with older mobo can get a more important jump in sound quality, relatively speaking, using a PCIe USB card, but the ones with more modern mobos with native USB 3.0 ports, as myself, get a very notable improvement in sound quality, even as in my case are only able to use the USB 3.0 port with an USB 2.0 cable.
As I said in other post I can perceive a fuller sound, I mean the sound is filling up the room in a bigger way and it is done with a great sense of continuity and without empty spaces in the imaginary soundstage. Also the sound is very relaxed like someone else said (Paul I think) and it is more evident than ever that the standing waves have less presence, if any.
In few words, the sound is bigger, more relaxed and cleaner. And it is noticeable.

Best regards,
Juan

[CoenP]

I was thinking that the maximum benefit (assuming hardware and bus speed contribute as well as software) would be for folks who fit a PCIe USB card to older motherboards with only USB 2 support but access to PCIe buses. This is the case for my PC.

I have a usb3 mobo with etron pcie usb3 chip that does not work as expected. Another reason to get a PCIe card.

My impression is that USB3 is beneficial, but I am still in the process of getting my system working as it should, applying lots of changes to the setup (os). Up untill now I have not felt the need to remove it.

Regards, Coen

[PeterSt]

... Hooked up to one of the MoBo's USB3 ports. The other (only) one connects to the USB3 disc I'm playing from.

Measurement-wise, I saw no difference anywhere. For possible driver (latency) etc. settings ? no difference again anywhere. However ...

When serious playback and listening had started, I brought up XXHighEnd at some stage, crossed it away and heard a crackling sound (as loud as the music I'd say). *Never* heard that before.
A minute later, I touched the Alt button for Alt-X - same sound.
After this I couldn't copy this behaviour anymore, but possibly didn't wait long enough for ? ... I don't know.

Later again, I cleared the Playlist Area (Unattended still playing) and again that crackling sound (lasts 0.1 - 0.2 secs).

To me this does not look good.


Btw, the NOS1 did not need to install on this never before connected-to port. It just worked right away.


Sound-wise I am not conclusive yet.

Peter

[Gerard]

... Hooked up to one of the MoBo's USB3 ports. The other (only) one connects to the USB3 disc I'm playing from.

Measurement-wise, I saw no difference anywhere. For possible driver (latency) etc. settings ? no difference again anywhere. However ...

When serious playback and listening had started, I brought up XXHighEnd at some stage, crossed it away and heard a crackling sound (as loud as the music I'd say). *Never* heard that before.
A minute later, I touched the Alt button for Alt-X - same sound.
After this I couldn't copy this behaviour anymore, but possibly didn't wait long enough for ? ... I don't know.

Later again, I cleared the Playlist Area (Unattended still playing) and again that crackling sound (lasts 0.1 - 0.2 secs).

To me this does not look good.


Btw, the NOS1 did not need to install on this never before connected-to port. It just worked right away.


Sound-wise I am not conclusive yet.

Peter

I have had crackling using the card Nick has. But until now the good sound makes it worth.

As you say at the beginning but also at the end.

Peter in the beginning you say Hooked up to one of the MoBo's USB3 ports. You mean PCIe?

 

[juanpmar]

... Hooked up to one of the MoBo's USB3 ports...

Btw, the NOS1 did not need to install on this never before connected-to port. It just worked right away.

Peter

Connected using  an USB 3.0 cable or the USB 2.0 one?.

Best regards,
Juan

[PeterSt]

Peter in the beginning you say Hooked up to one of the MoBo's USB3 ports. You mean PCIe?

Of course you thought I had the time to sort that out.
IOW, no idea ...
Anyway no extension card.

Connected using  an USB 3.0 cable or the USB 2.0 one?.

USB3 A-A (1.8m) & Genderchanger B-A.

Peter

[CoenP]

I also had the crackling. I don't think onboard or pci card usb3 matters, they are seperate chips anyway (only ivy bridge has native usb3), the chipsmanufacturers may differ though. When having the pcie card in the 16x gpu port there was significant cracking caused by the cpu. Error counters in the driver panel went bazerk. Still the cracking is visible in the usb and fifo error counters.

I also had cracking during play, but that seems to be fixed by increasing the minimum clock% of the cpu (in power management).

No definitive comment on sq yet.

Regards, Coen

[PeterSt]

No FiFo errors or anything on this side - but I didn't check that when the crackling occurred. So, no problems anywhere during normal playback.

Peter

[Scroobius]

For what it is worth I have not experienced any cracking at all. When I first connected via USB3 NOS1 was not recognised so I had to power down and then power up NOS1 to get USB3 recognised.

My USB3 is on the main board.

Still sounds good 

P

[boleary]

Hey Paul, what mother board are you using?

[Scroobius]

Motherboard is ASUS P6X58D-E

P

[PeterSt]

Okay ... I don't think I am too soon with it, and it can't be denied ...

Another leap forward.

But I must be precautious somewhat ...

With a lot of and a  to PeterSt is in shape - Audio Revolution I think I said in there that something else wasn't right now - as it seemed to me. I kept on playing with it because of the sheer pure sound coming from it, but not that I was satisfied. Actually I am still working on it to finish it for public use (wow, what a work), but I had something like : against all odds.

The sound from it carries less dynamics, sounding quite OK, but comes as a waste when switching back to "normal". Pianos are not as crystal clear, and the combination with "so pure" comes as strange to myself.
That it is sheer analogue sound is something else, but there's that signature to the sound. I can't bear that at all.


And then there came the USB3 connection ...

The silkyness of that XXHighEnd tweak is still there;
The balance has changed completely; I concur with those who say the room is fuller with sound. Drums are larger sized, to name a thing.
Strangely enough dynamics have gone less again, but all what's upfront in my mind is that this is no digital anymore. It's all background music at  loud level now, if you know what I mean. It is sooo normal.
It is so normal that I start to be afraid that the NOS1 has no aditional value anymore over any other not-so-detailed DAC.
But the crazy detail is still there.

If we only take Yello as the example of often "known" music to play for some real merits of XXHighEnd, and if I tell you that for the NOS1 this didn't suffice anymore (for me at least) and ... that with or without USB3 I just don't recognize the tracks anymore just because of that little XXHE tweak ... but that now it also seems *right* ...

... then I can't tell anymore what is all happening. I just don't get it.

I know, I am mixing (not up) quite a few things here, but for me it is about my often-right perception that something was wrong with my XXHE tweak while it should be quite OK from theory, and thus the onclusion that USB2 is wrong somewhere ?
How ?

So at this moment I can only have the best theory for myself : USB3 is wrong. Well, those cracks I perceive at clicking buttons - and which cracks can be all over once the PC is longer up and I'm more in development mode (messing up the PC actually) - don't promise for the better.
Still it sounds better as how I see it now. It even undoes/corrects the wrongness (that assumed) of the XXHE tweak, and I'm reluctant. Reluctant that it acts as some nice filter again. But if so, a filter(ing) of what ?

All 'n all, no definite verdict yet. But at some stage I maybe must give up thinking and have a nice time of listening instead. We will see how things go ...

Peter

[PeterSt]

... In the mean time I want to express my great thanks to that email writer about this (which, remember, was just one day ahead of Nick's posting about USB3), who went as far as sending me his exact cable and connector across a couple of oceans. Just to be sure I'd be using the same as he did so I could perceive it the same.

Also, from some people I can have the trust that they may judge audio better than me myself, which obviously is the case many times anyway. But at least he was right, and I perceive the sound exactly the same as he described it.

That this description in the end is the same as by now others have it, should only be a confirmation that really something is going on here.
Let me, please, add to this that for not NOS1 users this all may come across as some kind of hupla, but honestly, "we" really seem to be working on the ultimate reproduction of music through loudspeakers. I say "we" to NOS1 users, but I also say even more explicitly if possible "we" because I hoped for the day that other NOS1 users would be able to help me progressing with it all, like all the so many did with the software (XXHighEnd). This day is now there and I think it is great.

Again all the credits go to Nick (fameous NOS1 tweaker by now ), but the credits go just the same to the bloke who doesn't want credits. Well, he can't avoid them now.
Deep hats off to you both.
But just the same an as great thanks to those diving into this and can confirm, or the other way around, which is as important.

What seems to remain as a little task for now, is how to let this work out the same for everybody.

For others (because I really don't have the time to work this out now) my MoBo is an Asus P7P55D-E EVO. I have no idea how my USB3 connects internally. So, if someone knows and can see common denominators somewhere, don't hold back.
I can't set a thing in the BIOS for USB3 (yea, shut it off), but I also use the BIOS which came with the board.
Some say the bandwidth of USB3 can be limited (that looks like a good idea to at least try) but I can't find this in my BIOS and don't know about tools otherwise.

Btw, I did not shut off my USB2 stuff, which could be a next thing to try for me. But it is also a tad inconvenient.

Peter

[juanpmar]

What a hard work in front of you, so many things involved and questions to answer...

Just for curiosity, have you tried to connect the NOS1 from the USB 3.0 port in the PC with the standard USB 2.0 cable?. As you know I´m unable to use the USB 3.0 cable but still the sound is great and there isn´t any crack at all.

Best regards,
Juan

[boleary]

Hi Peter, as someone suggested above, do you now think you will test SQ by adding a usb3 connector to the NOS1, thus eliminating the need for an adapter? Just wondering cause I'm close to sending my NOS1 back to you for the "standard" upgrade, but maybe I should wait a bit?

[JohanZ]

Just for curiosity, have you tried to connect the NOS1 from the USB 3.0 port in the PC with the standard USB 2.0 cable?.

After installing the usb3 pcie interface i hear an improvement with the usb2 cable. Replacing usb2 cable for the usb3 cable with adapter first impression no improvement. Instruments get a more rounded/warmer sound. So i switched back to the nos standard usb2 cable. I will test the usb3 again.

[PeterSt]

Hi Peter, as someone suggested above, do you now think you will test SQ by adding a usb3 connector to the NOS1, thus eliminating the need for an adapter? Just wondering cause I'm close to sending my NOS1 back to you for the "standard" upgrade, but maybe I should wait a bit?

Hey there ...

The point here is : no Neutrik USB3 (B) connectors exist; whether "Neutrik fit" exist I didn't sort out yet ...

Regards !
Peter

[PeterSt]

... Actually by sheer coincidence, I think I have just found what is causing those "cracks" ...
Well, what does not go by coincidence or accident here ...

Still working on the by now notorious XXHE tweak, I suddenly realized what I could be hearing. Just missing samples ...

So those who perceive the same as *when* I receive CRACKS, will be receiving crackLING - I'm almost sure. So, a tiny crackling noise. Very similar (or most probably just the same) as many of us heard when moving the mouse. This depends on the interface (to the DAC) and maybe a few more things (like the responsiveness of the playback software vs. the behaviour of the PC). With my tweak though, I can emphasize it. And as I said it before ... the level of it is the same as the level of the music. This 100% fits to this idea of missing samples. In my case it does ...

So, missing samples. Why then ?
Briefly thinking : because the bandwidth consumed inherently by the USB3 speed is too much to let have the PC the needed "attention" to audio. What is it ? 5Gb/s ? Yes, this is much. So, at something like a speed (frequency) of 5Ghz, but let's say at the byte level, so now it's 0.625 Gb/s - something must be supplying that. This, while my processor cores run at only doulbe of that (hyperthreading !).
This can't be a good thing !

And so indeed, I/we should be seeking for limiting that bandwidth.
Whether it is the bandwidth itself which allows for the better sound (when nothing is touched and all the attention can keep on going to audio) is something else. But that is why we try a few things ...

Peter

[PeterSt]

Ok, this isn't going to be *that* simple;
First of all, I don't think that the main processor needs to provide the communication (though it can in certain setups, generally spoken), but merely I don't understand what I see ...

The USB3 Host Controller and Root Hub are provided by NEC. I see nothing there (and liked to see the Advanced tab).
What I can derive from the data, is that it's actually a PCI provided device.

Under (one of) the normal USB2 "Standard Enhanced PCI to USB Host Controller" entries (Device Manager btw) I see
1. just a good old MS driver (so, no NEC thing);
2. the Phasure NOS1 USB Device.
hmm ...

The NOS1 device nicely shows its bandwidth used, which is 27% at the highest sample rate. Lower the sample rate and the percentage drops nicely (needs playback, or at least streaming going on, which happens when the Control Panel is started).

As I said earlier in the topic, I never saw the Phasure driver installed for this USB3 port, which looked weird to me. Now ? now *that* starts to look normal, but I don't understand a freaking thing of what I see, and it looks like it's just serviced by USB2.

Now what ?

Do people see similar things ?
Or the opposite, the proof of an USB3 port servicing the NOS1 (or other USB DAC for that matter) ?

[Nick]

Ok, this isn't going to be *that* simple;
First of all, I don't think that the main processor needs to provide the communication (though it can in certain setups, generally spoken), but merely I don't understand what I see ...

The USB3 Host Controller and Root Hub are provided by NEC. I see nothing there (and liked to see the Advanced tab).
What I can derive from the data, is that it's actually a PCI provided device.

Under (one of) the normal USB2 "Standard Enhanced PCI to USB Host Controller" entries (Device Manager btw) I see
1. just a good old MS driver (so, no NEC thing);
2. the Phasure NOS1 USB Device.
hmm ...

The NOS1 device nicely shows its bandwidth used, which is 27% at the highest sample rate. Lower the sample rate and the percentage drops nicely (needs playback, or at least streaming going on, which happens when the Control Panel is started).

As I said earlier in the topic, I never saw the Phasure driver installed for this USB3 port, which looked weird to me. Now ? now *that* starts to look normal, but I don't understand a freaking thing of what I see, and it looks like it's just serviced by USB2.

Now what ?

Do people see similar things ?
Or the opposite, the proof of an USB3 port servicing the NOS1 (or other USB DAC for that matter) ?

Peter hi,

Thanks for your kind words  .

Just been catching up with your posts on this. Very pleased to hear your are getting an analogue sound as well now from usb3

Reading a few posts, drivers seem to be important with USB 3 cards. Could be the MS driver is causing the cracks if your chipset is actually NEC ?

A thought that occured is that it might be better to give a PCIe card a go if your mobo usb3 is on a PCI bridge, you would also get to load a native NEC chipset driver. Also I think bus bandwidth and latency levels on the bus matter. When using PCI connected USB 2 I used to use a PCI bus latency setting utility which could tune the smoothness of high frequency. The PCIE USB 3 setup seems to take the sound of that tweak  up several steps. Might the bus speed / latency be important ?

Turning off all usb that is not being used in bios or disabling them in device manager is worth doing. I got the largest return from turning off mobo USB in bios.

At the moment I am back to using a USB 2 cable but experimenting with a 5 meter cable. Will post thoughts when I have tried a few things back to back.

I am sure looking forwards to z09-7.

Best,

Nick.

[PeterSt]

Just for curiosity, have you tried to connect the NOS1 from the USB 3.0 port in the PC with the standard USB 2.0 cable?. As you know I´m unable to use the USB 3.0 cable but still the sound is great and there isn´t any crack at all.

Finally ...

It may look strange, but it was hard for me to understand what you meant. Well, I can see it now, and especially after trying a few things ...

I think people should look some closer in their devices what's actually happening. For the PCIe card solutions I don't know, but for the MoBo solutions - especially Asus, something is just not working. It just *is* using USB2, see my earlier post about it. And btw, those USB2 ports are denoted as "USB3/USB2".

Imagine this USB3 disc connected to one of the ports. Next I disable the USB3 (internal) hub, en voliá, there the USB3 disc is installed on the USB2 hub. Happens automatically. So, completely backward USB2 compatible.

The above is really what people have to realize, because this goes unnoticed.

Phasure NOS1 was not to be found anywhere anymore. Uninstall it / Reinstall it - nothing.

Next I disabled the USB2 stuff in the BIOS and retried via several ways. I ended up with using an USB2 cable, but nothing anywhere. So, no way I could get the NOS1 "hooked up" to USB3, when USB2 wasn't running. I think I tried everything (with current USB3 drivers for the NEC chip I have in there).

There is one little "light" and this is that USB3 is not always able to recognize devices. I know this from this USB3 disc which is not always there after a reboot, and it's on forums as well. But, where a power off/on of the disc helps, this is not the case for the NOS1. Something just doesn't work, *or* something in the driver is too strictly telling that this can not be USB3. On that matter it would be good if someone could confirm - and what I asked before - whether they really see it as an USB3 device. When not sure you can still let know what you see, and otherwise may disable USB2 in the BIOS to be sure (no big deal I think).

When for more than me alone this USB3 path travels over USB2, there will be no way I think we can say that it is for the better generally. And, I'd even say that it should work for the worse, thinking added noise only. But, that acting as a filter; May work out for the better when nothing else to improver on that other "noise" anyway.

So ? anyone ?

[PeterSt]

Something like a USB 3.0 monitor? I never saw that before, I´ll try to find it.

Maybe because I'm now looking at Normal OS Mode - maybe because I reinstalled that USB3 driver - but it is a process and called nusb3mon.exe "USB 3.0 Monitor". So, I had this running with my described attempts, but at least *that* doesn't help.

Regards,
Peter

[listening]

Hi all USB aficionados,

I tried to follow the discussion and try to summarize for me:

• Don't mix up active devices with USB 2.0 and USB 3.0. Decide for one of them.
• If using USB 3.0 it's not recommended to connect DAC and Harddisk to the same controller
• If adding USB 3.0 PCIe cards take two separate ones if you like to connect DAC and harddisk to USB

Is that right?

Georg

[Nick]

On that matter it would be good if someone could confirm - and what I asked before - whether they really see it as an USB3 device. When not sure you can still let know what you see, and otherwise may disable USB2 in the BIOS to be sure (no big deal I think).

Peter hi,

I have attached a screen shot of Device manager in (view by connection) of the NOS connected to my PCIe USB 3 card.

As you can see the connection is PCIe > USB3 host controller > USB 3 Root Hub > NOS1. BUT the NEC chip has USB 2 back compatibility so I think everything connects as far as the chip using the above USB 3 then on chip a USB 2 device is detected and driven appropriately by the chip.

This is why I wanted to try this because all the way up to the chip all seems to be USB3 driven over real PCIe, which should all be lower transmission latency when the data reaches the chip it detects and talks USB 2 to the NOS1. This is what I hope is happening. I will get the NEC chip datasheet to take a look at how USB2 compatibility is provided.

Mobo USB seems to be giving good results for some people but I was trying to test something specific (above) which not all mobos may be able to reproduce  in terms of the end to end connectivity.

I hope this helps,

Kind regards,

Nick.

UPDATE

re reading this it has me asking if the NOS could actually by connecting as a USB3 device. Is this possible Peter ?

[PeterSt]

Thanks Nick;

re reading this it has me asking if the NOS could actually by connecting as a USB3 device. Is this possible Peter ?

Nope. Oh, later maybe (an USB3 driver which will be there at some stage).

Whether this is dealt with as USB2 is not the problem and is as expected by me, but travelling a route to a complete different chip is what not suits be much. That doesn't seem to happen in your case ...
(but what happens if you shut off USB2 ? most probably then it doesn't run anymore either ??)

Regards,
Peter

[manisandher]

I'm not sure if I can add anything useful to this thread, but using a standard USB2.0 cable, I hear a big difference between the USB2.0 and USB3.0 ports on my mobo. Unfortunately, I have no USB3.0 devices so I can't test if these ports are dedicated to USB3.0 only. But they are 'blue' and only have 'USB3' written on the mobo next to them (not USB3/USB2).

The USB3.0 ports sound much cleaner than the USB2.0 ports. They don't sound as if they're 'filtering' the sound at all. Quite the opposite - the USB2.0 ports sound thick and filtered in comparison. One thought I have is that the two ports may actually require different SFS settings. It might just be that my current SFS of 475 suits the USB3.0 ports but is simply too high for the USB2.0 ports. (I long for the day that the SFS no longer makes a difference. Until then, we just haven't cracked computer audio.)

Mani.

[Nick]

Thanks Nick;

re reading this it has me asking if the NOS could actually by connecting as a USB3 device. Is this possible Peter ?

Nope. Oh, later maybe (an USB3 driver which will be there at some stage).

Whether this is dealt with as USB2 is not the problem and is as expected by me, but travelling a route to a complete different chip is what not suits be much. That doesn't seem to happen in your case ...
(but what happens if you shut off USB2 ? most probably then it doesn't run anymore either ??)

Regards,
Peter

Peter hi,

I have all other physical USB 2 devices switched off, so the pc only has two USB ports running. When you say what happens when you shut of USB 2 do you means stop a software service ?

Mani,

I agree with your observation my ears also tell me that the filtering is with USB 2 it just does not sound as right. Do you have any general specs on the le monster pc ? What motherboard cpu and socket type did you go with ?

Cheers,

Nick.

[xp9433]

Nick
In Mani's signature
Frank

[PeterSt]

I have all other physical USB 2 devices switched off, so the pc only has two USB ports running. When you say what happens when you shut of USB 2 do you means stop a software service ?

Hi Nick - Shut off USB support in the BIOS. This is not specifically USB2, but I think it is anyway. USB3 is another section (to shut off).
Not sure what happens to the general "USB system" when the first is shut off, but at least the USB3 part keeps on running if you do.

And otherwise you can uninstall the USB2 hubs in Device Manager. Functionally that comes down to the same I think. So when that is out, you can be sure (??) your PCIe card is doing the whole of the job.

Peter

[Nick]

Nick
In Mani's signature
Frank

Ahh, thanks frank !

Mani's spec is exactly what I have been looking into for a few weeks. Asus X97 with a 3930 CPU. Lots of stuff in this architectre that I think may end up helping music, and the USB 3 port sounds like it works fine also. I will have to compare notes with Mani. But his initial comments seem promising.

Best,

Nick.

[manisandher]

Hey Nick, just let me know if you'd like some details specs of Le Monster's build.

Mani.

[Scroobius]

Hi All - eventually got round to this but in my BIOS setup I can disable NEC USB3 and/or USB 2 controller. So I have disabled the USB2 controller leaving the NEC USB3 controller running. I am now listening to music with USB2 disabled. No problems and I have not experienced any cracking at all at any time.

It does seem to me that the sound quality is even better with USB2 disabled but further listening is needed to be sure.

USB3 is on the mobo which is ASUS P6X58D-E as stated earlier in the thread

[UPDATE: OK I can say certainly there is a very significant improvement in sound quality with USB2 turned off - no question about it]

Peter mentioned earlier that dynamics sounded reduced with USB3 well that is not my experience. When I first connected to USB3 the improvement was a smoother fuller more analogue even softer sound and I can see how that might appear to sound less dynamic. But that is not my experience - my system has a very dynamic detailed sound and I would say that particularly with USB2 disabled the sound is very dynamic - no complaints at all and sounding by some margin the best it has ever done.

All the best

Paul

[PeterSt]

When I first connected to USB3 the improvement was a smoother fuller more analogue even softer sound and I can see how that might appear to sound less dynamic.

That is exactly how I experienced it. There's a somewhat less "byte" now in my case. But I'm not saying this is particularly bad ...

But personally I have learned something new : explicitly listen for distortion in the highs.

People may say "wow, good for you but I could do that ages ago", and they may be right. But still I wonder ...
The XXHE tweak allows for such a pure sound, that from there it is quite easy to see where the not-so-pure sound is coming from. So, the general perception of "pure" may be in voices, but since this will be everywhere (I know ) it can be reversely mapped from the highs just the same. And there you hear it;

"Dynamics" expressed in the attacks of nearly everything come from distortion;
It is just that minuscule edge which is audible in e.g. cymbal attacks.
But what about my elsewhere expressed now satin-like synthesized drums (think Enigma) ? here it is even far more clear, once you know what is going on.
Btw, earlier I said silk. Haha, I just noticed myself that I chaged that to satin (do you feel the difference ?).

But don't let me confuse you, when I talk about the XXHE tweak which I did above. The trick is in the combination with this USB3 connection, which I even hardly have (and others do, like Nick and now Paul). It fills up something which the tweak made lacking. How the combination can work ? I don't know yet. I guess it needs measuring deep down in the DAC to find out (so not at the outputs I mean). It must be a noise (signature) thing. No matter how small.

Peter

[Scroobius]

I find it crazy just how good these old recordings sound with NOS1. And now with USB3 even better not in any subtle way but in a very obvious "my wife can hear it" kind of way - Right now I am listening to old mono recordings of Billie Holiday - Original Masters and the sound quality is silly - as in silly good - no dynamic range old mono and it just sounds great I mean really great - it really should not but it does. There is depth and space and ambience - Billie's voice just sounds so real - what I really mean is that her voice sounds like a personal performance just for me. She is in my room singing for me. All the emotion and inflection in the voice is there - just for me. How this is possible? I just do not know but oh boy is it great listening.

So rather than putting up with poor sound quality to listen to one of the all time greats - I actually look forward to listening to the performance.

Crazy as I said before but in the best possible way.

Regards

Paul

[juanpmar]

Finally I could connect the NOS1 using an USB 3.0 cable. It was the previous cable that was defective because with a couple of new cables from a different seller and other cable brands it was working perfectly since the first moment.

I appreciate minor differences in relation with the USB 2.0 cable in the USB 3.0 port, maybe a subtle improvement in the sound scape size. I also can tell some difference, minor again, using the blue adapter with the proper cable seen in the pic in place of the other one. There is some more presence and bigger sound stage with the blue adapter. It lets me think again that there is some kind of influence of the cables.

Anyway, I still think that the sound is better coming from the USB 3.0 port than from the USB 2.0 port. It doesn´t seem to me that this is a distorted sound.

http://www.cablematic.com/Cable-y-adaptador-USB-3_dot_0/Adaptador-USB-3_dot_0-a-USB-2_dot_0-_open_parenthesis_B-Hembra-a-B-Macho_close_parenthesis_/?pag=83

http://www.amazon.es/gp/product/B004Z56TSS/ref=oh_o00_s01_i00_details

Best regards,
Juan

[CoenP]

Hi all,

I don't share your enthousiasm for this route. In someway I can't reconcile with USB3 and its sound. Dispite cracking issues that seem (hopefully more than temporarily) to be solved after a driver update, I think the sound lacks something that I like and is there on my USB2 ports.

It occurred to me that, even with the latest driver (NEC/Renesas 720200F1 to 2.0.30.0) the CPU isn't loaded as tidy on USB3 than it is on USB2. The latter has a very nice repetitive pattern with the SFS controlled loading peaks, but playing on USB3 it looks messy, with more cpu load on activity. Probably you are able to reproduce this yourself.

I am using a OEM Western Digital USB3 PCIe card with abovementioned NEC chip.

I'm back to USB2 for now.

regards, Coen

[Scroobius]

Hi Coen - very interesting are you monitoring CPU usage with Task Manager?

[PeterSt]

FYI :

A week back or so, I uninstalled the Phasure driver and reinstalled it USB3 connected. I never heard one "crack" since. So there something matters too.

But notice what I said earlier : after connecting to USB3 the first time, nothing auto-installed on that port, and possibly this is not right.

Regards,
Peter


PS: Still liking it.
In my case I don't see different CPU behaviour.

[CoenP]

Hi Coen - very interesting are you monitoring CPU usage with Task Manager?

Yep.

Regards, Coen

[CoenP]

Fyi peak extend has been off.

Regards, Coen

[Scroobius]

I cannot see any difference (on my PC) in CPU loading with USB2 or USB3 running they both look as far as I can tell exactly the same. Basically CPU runs at 0% with occasional 1% peaks.

Paul

[CoenP]

Hi Scroobius,

What I mean is that in your pics the USB2 core #8 has a nice driver pattern. In the USB3 situation this apparently changed to core #3 (I think) and doesn't look as tidy.

Later I will post some pics of my CPU usage (only 4 cores).

SFS loading peaks on my cpu are 100%, strangely this is no different than on my atom (with lower sfs of course)...

regards, Coen

[Scroobius]

Hi Coen - The pics are a bit misleading I snapped the USB3 pic as it blipped up a little. There are similar blips with USB2 when the processor goes up to 1% for a short time. Generally there is not really any significant difference I would say - maybe I should spend more time looking at it to be sure. On both USB2 and 3 occasionally every few minutes there is a fast short blip on all cores up to 100% which as you say could be SFS related.

For me anyway with USB3 and now with Peak Extend *on* never before have I heard such relaxed presentation of fine detail.

[PeterSt]

Coen, I think I told it before (in another topic), but the CPU *always* gets to 100% when track(part)s load. One thing : the faster the CPU (or the more power because of more cores) the shorther the peaks will last. En then another thing to take int account : at least on an i7 you will never see it last longer with TaskManager *and* W7, because TaskManager itself stalls (you can just see it stop). But just look, and see that the stall takes maybe one second, and that is how long the peaks actually last.
Lower the SFS and you'll see the stalling getting shorter ...

Peter

[stefanobilliani]

USB 3.0 gives +50 mega SFS . My listening is relaxed sound and better ....

[stefanobilliani]

FYI :

A week back or so, I uninstalled the Phasure driver and reinstalled it USB3 connected. I never heard one "crack" since. So there something matters too.

But notice what I said earlier : after connecting to USB3 the first time, nothing auto-installed on that port, and possibly this is not right.

Regards,
Peter


PS: Still liking it.
In my case I don't see different CPU behaviour.

I did find the same thing on my recent USB3 installation .

[PeterSt]

gives +50 mega SFS

What do you mean by this ?

[stefanobilliani]

gives +50 mega SFS

What do you mean by this ?

Hello ,

I mean that with USB 2 ( and USB3 disabled by bios ) the max SFS my system could play , and after 2 or 3 reboots before going to Minimized OS , -was- 350 sfs SC .

Connected to USB 3 , it play at 400 sfs max . SC.

s

[stefanobilliani]

gives +50 mega SFS

What do you mean by this ?

Hello ,

I mean that with USB 2 ( and USB3 disabled by bios ) the max SFS my system could play , and after 2 or 3 reboots before going to Minimized OS , -was- 350 sfs SC .

Connected to USB 3 , it play at 400 sfs max . SC.

s

Actually in Minimized OS it goes to 500 SFS SC , seems a good result to me ...

[stefanobilliani]

Having saying that , trying back the USB2 , the sound is stronger , like there is some power added to the bass , it's a bit more "difficult" to listen to , but instead apparently more clear , and it goes to listen at a minor "gain" ( volume ) . Oh and the SFS set is still about 500 .... 
Soon I'll disable the USB 2 from bios and report back some impressions with USB 3 again , which for now produces some clicks now and then to the reproduction .

[stefanobilliani]

Well , for me when in USB 3 , the reproduction is just more Gentle . More gentle in the "pianos" , and overall more relaxed . I like it .

No clicks at all after the disable of usb 2 and usb legacy .

Regarding SFS , it feels comfortable at around 400 , SC .


s

[CoenP]

Here are my pics.

PE turned on, reinstalled the XX driver on the USB3 port and killed the usb3mon process.

Stefanobilliani made some sq comments that I second. The sound on USB2 is more compact and less controlled. Tonally there is quite a big difference in favour of USB3. Still something irritates me about it. Maybe it is because on USB2 I hear more of the instruments playing together. Maybe my cr*p recorded tracks sound more like they ought to. Still looking for it.

On the other side: I find it hard to believe that the cpu load of USB3 has a favourable effect on SQ, au contraire!

regards, Coen

[PeterSt]

What you see in the first core is pure the driver (except for the large spikes); Are you sure all further settings are the same in both situations ?
Notice that this graph is influenced by the combination of Q1 + Device Buffer, Clock Resolution and Buffer Size in the Driver Control Panel (and Special Mode vs Adaptive, but you don't use Special, and of course WASAPI vs KS).

[CoenP]

They are made with exactly the same settings.
The USB3 driver part of the graph is almost twice as high as the USB2. USB3 peaks at 8%, USB2 at 5% (as you can see). The flat part is 5% on USB3 and 3% on USB2.

I took the best looking USB3 shot to illustrate the difference in load. I have pics where the driverpart is hardly recognisable.

yesterday I updated the mobo Etron USB3 driver to the latest version (21-3-2012), but still I get the "set pauze on pin error". Strangely enabling the USB3 on the mobo did something positive to the sound of the PCIe USB3.

regards, Coen 

[Nick]

They are made with exactly the same settings.
The USB3 driver part of the graph is almost twice as high as the USB2. USB3 peaks at 8%, USB2 at 5% (as you can see). The flat part is 5% on USB3 and 3% on USB2.

I took the best looking USB3 shot to illustrate the difference in load. I have pics where the driverpart is hardly recognisable.

yesterday I updated the mobo Etron USB3 driver to the latest version (21-3-2012), but still I get the "set pauze on pin error". Strangely enabling the USB3 on the mobo did something positive to the sound of the PCIe USB3.

regards, Coen 

Coen hi,

I looks like the peaks in USB CPU usage may be a known issue with a Microsoft Patach available, take a look at this Microsoft  tech note. This may explain why others have also been getting cracking sounds. It looks like the peak happens about every 15 seconds with the faulty drivers.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/981214

Best regards,

Nick.

[CoenP]

Thanks Nick,

Very interesting. Is this fix not part of the sp1 update? According to Peter the peaks are the result of xx playing. You have no peaks?

Regards, Coen

[Nick]

Thanks Nick,

Very interesting. Is this fix not part of the sp1 update? According to Peter the peaks are the result of xx playing. You have no peaks?

Regards, Coen

Coen hi,

I have not checked for peaks on my setup, but take Peters point about the SFS bursts in CPU.

My thinking was that quite a few folks are using versions of W7 without updates so it could be that some are using the older versions of the USB????.sys files and this this might be causing CPU peaks and the cracking sounds when switching to USB3.

Best,

Nick.

[PeterSt]

Trust me, all I see in those graphs looks perfectly normal to me. It's only that there's a slight difference between USB2 and USB3. Maybe I have that too, but because the difference is so small I didn't notice.

Try to look at the core where the diver runs as it always consuming the same CPU on average. But first : try to change the settings I mentioned earlier ... if you had done that I'm sure you would have posted other things by now. So, even the comparison between your USB2 and USB3 seems equal for that average.
Thus please try some of those settings. It will take your thinking away from something "bad". IOW, what you see is the most normal ... ehh ... for only one of those combinations of (settings) possibilities ...

Peter

[PeterSt]

Djeezz, things go fast ...

Last night I had the idea something was wrong, and I had the notion it could be about some (XXHighEnd) setting I applied. But, I rather liked to be ignorant and blame USB3.

Undid further tweaks you out there don't have, step by step, undid that possible causing setting, and ended up all the way up to USB2. So, all "native" again. Problem was gone.

But I found it unlistenable. Quite raw or how to describe it. Like I told before. "Distortion" compared to the new reference (USB3).

As slowly built up everything again but left out that XXHighEnd setting. All still good.


Ok, the above is a too long story for a one liner which could tell that something must be wrong with USB2 which is right with USB3.
But part of it is that I didn't want to "know" that some XXHighEnd setting didn't work out. Anti-pacebo or something. But it was that setting, and as a means to prove it I listened to all the small tweak-parts I applied lately, and the base of that was USB2. Well, we must be careful, because USB2 is not the best as it seems ...

Peter

[manisandher]

Oh no, I've just had my first BSOD in 2-3 years I guess.
(The last time was when I tried a PCI extender to use with my RME PCI card.)

I've just received a cheap (€11) 'Teck Net' PCIe USB 3.0 card from Amazon, which has the NEC/Renesas chip. With the Renesas driver installed, the card works with all other USB 2.0 devices I've tried... except the NOS1. When the NOS1 is connected, as soon as I launch XX, I get the BSOD.

The Renesas driver is version 2.1.28 and the firmware 4015. I've looked hard and long on Google but can't find newer driver/firmware.

Of course, I'm not worried about losing €11, but would love to be able to compare this PCIe card with my mobo USB 3.0 ports.

Any ideas?

Mani.

[Nick]

Oh no, I've just had my first BSOD in 2-3 years I guess.
(The last time was when I tried a PCI extender to use with my RME PCI card.)

I've just received a cheap (€11) 'Teck Net' PCIe USB 3.0 card from Amazon, which has the NEC/Renesas chip. With the Renesas driver installed, the card works with all other USB 2.0 devices I've tried... except the NOS1. When the NOS1 is connected, as soon as I launch XX, I get the BSOD.

The Renesas driver is version 2.1.28 and the firmware 4015. I've looked hard and long on Google but can't find newer driver/firmware.

Of course, I'm not worried about losing €11, but would love to be able to compare this PCIe card with my mobo USB 3.0 ports.

Any ideas?

Mani.

Mani hi,

Just checked my card with the same Renesas chip I think, the driver reported is 2.0.34.0. PM me if you would like to give it a try.

Best,
Nick.

[manisandher]

... the driver reported is 2.0.34.0.

Hi Nick, thanks for this. After trying a few things, I stumbled upon this version of the driver myself, an hour or so before I saw your post. In any event, it has done the trick. Everything now works as expected (see attached jpeg).

And the sound? Well, very, very nice indeed. This £10 PCIe card may well end up being the best investment I've ever made in hifi. Thanks so much for letting us all in on this Nick.

And I'm still only using the standard USB cable provided with the NOS1. I've also just received a blue USB 3.0 cable and cheapo A-B USB adaptor. The only slight issue I have is that I had to order a 5m length of USB 3.0 cable, in anticipation of installing Le Monster in its permanent resting place in the cellar. I suspect this length may have a detrimental affect on the sound, but I really have no choice as Le Monster simply cannot stay in the listening room. I'll probably order a 1.5m length of USB 3.0 cable also just to hear how much the sound suffers with a longer length.

Thanks again Nick. This is a simply superb tweak.

Mani.

[Nick]

... the driver reported is 2.0.34.0.

Hi Nick, thanks for this. After trying a few things, I stumbled upon this version of the driver myself, an hour or so before I saw your post. In any event, it has done the trick. Everything now works as expected (see attached jpeg).

And the sound? Well, very, very nice indeed. This £10 PCIe card may well end up being the best investment I've ever made in hifi. Thanks so much for letting us all in on this Nick.

And I'm still only using the standard USB cable provided with the NOS1. I've also just received a blue USB 3.0 cable and cheapo A-B USB adaptor. The only slight issue I have is that I had to order a 5m length of USB 3.0 cable, in anticipation of installing Le Monster in its permanent resting place in the cellar. I suspect this length may have a detrimental affect on the sound, but I really have no choice as Le Monster simply cannot stay in the listening room. I'll probably order a 1.5m length of USB 3.0 cable also just to hear how much the sound suffers with a longer length.

Thanks again Nick. This is a simply superb tweak.

Mani.

Mani hi,

I am very pleased to hear that the card works so well. I suspect that the native PCIe connection gives a very low transfer latency for the audio stream which is good. Of course it could also be a good driver for this chipset as well.

Looking at the architecture for the 3960 I have a feeling you may have the best platform available right now  It's interesting to get information on the comparative sound of mobo v's PCIe USB particularly in your system as I think I may shortly have a very similar setup. Thanks.

I have been trying different USB cables that I have about the house. Using a blue USB cable changes sound in my system but not clearly for the better more "just different". As it happens for a week of so I'v been using a 5m cable (thinking that the length may help to attenuate some pc generated noise). I don't know if it really helps with noise, but I can say that you shouldnt have too much to worry about using the long cable 

One quick question did you go for the Sabertooth x79 board ? The only thing it dosent do that I would like is that it only has one ps2 connection so its hard to keep both the mouse and keyboard off USB.

Best,
Nick.

Ps try shutting the mobo USB off in bios (best) or device mgr, that should give an improvement  too.

[Nick]

Hi,

Another thing to try if using USB 3 is setting to scheme 1. It seems the differences are easier to hear now. Scheme 3 was my favorite using USB 2 but with USB 3 scheme 1 seems to be a good deal more detailed and smoother at the same time.

Regards,

Nick.

[manisandher]

Hi Nick, will give Scheme 1 a go.

I went for an Asus P9X79 WS mobo. This does indeed have two ps/2 ports, so a non-USB mouse and keyboard shouldn't be a problem. The only minor annoyance with this mobo is that although you can disable USB 3.0 in the BIOS, you can't disable USB 2.0 there (the only option given is to disable 'legacy' USB 2.0). It seems strange that no option is given, but after hours of looking, I can't find it.

Mani.

[Nick]

I went for an Asus P9X79 WS mobo.

Mani.

Really good spot, solves the mouse / keyboard issue over USB. The only problem is that this was my last excuse for holding off so this is going to be expensive 

Nick.

[Scroobius]

Hey Mani - thanks for the post and it seems that your experience is that the PCi USB3 is better than the mobo USB3.

I had been wondering what to do with the now vacant PCi slot in my PC since the old NOS interface was removed. So what better than to fill it with a new NOS USB3 PCi card. So it is now on order and just wondering if it is possible to improve the sound even further. I have to say that the improvement in my system with USB3 PE *on* is really significant. The sound can't possibly be improved - surely not? well it is worth the small investment to find out.

Cheers

Paul

[manisandher]

... it seems that your experience is that the PCi USB3 is better than the mobo USB3.

I think we have to be a bit careful here. I've only just now had a chance to really listen and compare them, with the USB2.0 controllers disabled.

Well, they certainly sound different. The mobo USB3.0 port (ASMedia driver) sounds 'softer' and in a way 'sweeter'. But everything is perhaps a tad too 'rounded off', though this makes for a very pleasant and easy-to-listen-to sound. In contrast, the PCIe USB3.0 port (Renesas driver) sounds 'clearer' and 'cleaner'. But it can sound a bit forward and 'hard-edged' at times. (I just hope this isn't due to increased noise in the system - things can be so deceptive).

In both cases, the XX settings can be changed to make the sound more acceptable. With the mobo USB3.0, I found that Scheme 3 and SFS=430 sounds pretty good. With the PCIe USB3.0, I found Scheme 1 (thanks Nick) and SFS=470 sounds good. Right now, my preference is with the PCIe USB3.0. That clarity is just addictive.

Oh and the 5m USB3.0 cable with A-B USB adapter works fine. I've been doing all this evening's listening with this cable and, if anything, actually prefer it to the standard 1.5m USB2.0 cable that came with the NOS1. It sounds smoother.

In total, I paid less than £20 for the PCIe card, the 5m cable and the adapter. What a tweak!

Mani.

[Scroobius]

Thanks Mani - I am finding that these USB3 tweaks are making such significant differences to sound quality that it is worth the small outlay to find out. On the (slightly) downside I have to wonder if we will ever remove the effect of the computer on sound quality.

Do you use a Molex to power the card? and if so does it make any difference to SQ?

Paul

[PeterSt]

Well, they certainly sound different. The mobo USB3.0 port (ASMedia driver) sounds 'softer' and in a way 'sweeter'. But everything is perhaps a tad too 'rounded off', though this makes for a very pleasant and easy-to-listen-to sound.

It is here where I started to find myself in deep troubles and had to find out what was the cause (referring to my earlier post). Some albums, seemingly from a certain age, lacked all the highs imagineable. Example : Night at the Opera (Queen).

I am not sure yet what the real cause is with so many tweaks around, but one part of it is an SFS of 280. But, this co-operated with something else you don't have (yet) and I can't be 100% sure this really is related. However, I start to see a line in some things. So, for fun, try the SFS=280 (Q1 at 30 for sure) and play that album which of course everybody owns.
Somehow with USB3 this seems to have super impact.

If this works for you (all highs lack -> all cymbals very far in the background) it could be the perfect setting for classical.

[PeterSt]

it could be the perfect setting for classical.

I don't think I or anyone else ever said something stupid like this. But since USB3 I suddenly have these kind of thoughts, and without notice I even wrote it now.

(meaning : since when is it the idea to use "processing" of any kind to tweak for music types ?? -> should be wrong)

[stefanobilliani]

it could be the perfect setting for classical.

I don't think I or anyone else ever said something stupid like this. But since USB3 I suddenly have these kind of thoughts, and without notice I even wrote it now.

(meaning : since when is it the idea to use "processing" of any kind to tweak for music types ?? -> should be wrong)

Very good point . Of course that "should" be wrong . Some people ( or fiew ) in the music recording places started to understand that . 

[stefanobilliani]

Hi Nick, thanks for this. After trying a few things, I stumbled upon this version of the driver myself, an hour or so before I saw your post. In any event, it has done the trick. Everything now works as expected (see attached jpeg).

And the sound? Well, very, very nice indeed.
Mani.

The Z68 mobo here has the same driver 2.0.34.0  , and after the reorganizing of some sequence of installations , it works very very well also . Without the need to disable USB 2 and Lecacy .

I mean it , very very well .

Now listening to SFS=280 , Adaptive mode , Buffer Size = 4096 , Clock Res = 15ms as Peter suggested for fun .

For me is quite exellent . And even if I do not own the Queen record mentioned ,I seem to recognize the effect ...

But I was already a "fan" of the High Buffer size :-)

[manisandher]

Do you use a Molex to power the card? and if so does it make any difference to SQ?

Not currently using the Molex power input. But might try this later this evening, once the kids are asleep. Will report back as soon as I've tried it.

Mani.

[Nick]

Do you use a Molex to power the card? and if so does it make any difference to SQ?

Not currently using the Molex power input. But might try this later this evening, once the kids are asleep. Will report back as soon as I've tried it.

Mani.

The card I have has SATA power connection. As far as I can see the chipset is powered from the PCIe bus and the aux SATA power is there only to provide for the higher spec inline current delivery of the USB 3 standard. When I hooked the SATA power up to the pc ATx supply to try it if anything sound had very slightly more edge to it. I guess this could be the effect of connecting the SMPS relatively directly into the NOS via the USB +5v in line supply.

Regards Nick.

[CoenP]

With the PCIe USB3.0, I found Scheme 1 (thanks Nick) and SFS=470 sounds good. Right now, my preference is with the PCIe USB3.0. That clarity is just addictive.

I think these settings adress most of my reservations about the SQ of the PCIe USB3 card. I've been searching in bios and os, but it was there in xx all the time (i did correct some of the other settings though).
The subdued highs that Peter mentiones above have been partly the cause of my search, now they seem to be right again.

Thanks!

Disabeling the left over USB2 controllers (chipset and separate) in the device manager does add a bit to the clarity and experience. Unfortunately if you forget to swich them back on before shut down, the next boot will stall somewhere in the process. You will have to restart to the 'last known good configuration'.

Fwiw I rebooted five times in a row as advised for a cure for reboot related issues on the windows support forum. With the new settings and fresh situation the cpu graph in the task manager looks much more  the usb2 one. Not completely the same, but much more alike than my previous posting.

Regards, Coen

[arvind]

Hi Mani,

Could you pls give me the link to procure a 5m USB 3.0 A male to A male cable. Neither Amazon or e bay have a 5m length.

Thanks,

Arvind

[stefanobilliani]

Hi all ,

In the mobo USB 3 set-up , after the manual reinstall of the Renesas I have found a little Host Controller gui -attached below- , that behaves strange . Infact , when " disabled USB 3.0 power management functions" is checked the system won't go to minize OS anymore and will have to chose a restore point back in a time to let XX High End minimize the operating system again .

It's strange also because for a while I thought that this check allowed to remove all the clicks that was there between the playlist reproduction , and the sound was very very smooth and detailed . Well , just with the full OS .

s

[PeterSt]

when " disabled USB 3.0 power management functions" is checked the system won't go to minize OS anymore

But what about going into Minimized firsrt, and *then* disable that power management ?
Or does that force you into a reboot which next is Normal again ?

[stefanobilliani]

Hi all ,

In the mobo USB 3 set-up , after the manual reinstall of the Renesas I have found a little Host Controller gui -attached below- , that behaves strange . Infact , when " disabled USB 3.0 power management functions" is checked the system won't go to minize OS anymore and will have to chose a restore point back in a time to let XX High End minimize the operating system again .

It's strange also because for a while I thought that this check allowed to remove all the clicks that was there between the playlist reproduction , and the sound was very very smooth and detailed . Well , just with the full OS .

s

I may add that if that thing is checked when the minimize OS is working , it will work ( work? ) , and reboot still in minize OS and so on , until the decision to go back to the normal state ( no minimize OS ) . At that poing there will be the beginning of this post: the only way to go back to minize will be the restore .

Thanks and regards

Stefano

[stefanobilliani]

when " disabled USB 3.0 power management functions" is checked the system won't go to minimize OS anymore

But what about going into Minimized firsrt, and *then* disable that power management ?
Or does that force you into a reboot which next is Normal again ?

Hi Peter ,

I was answering your question while typing 

[PeterSt]

Haha.

But do you happen to know what happens when you swap the state of that power management back and *then* reboot into Normal ?
Not that this should be your procedure, but when this is confirmed I may be able to do something about it. May, because at this moment I have no clue what happens.

Regards,
Peter

[stefanobilliani]

Haha.

But do you happen to know what happens when you swap the state of that power management back and *then* reboot into Normal ?
Not that this should be your procedure, but when this is confirmed I may be able to do something about it. May, because at this moment I have no clue what happens.

Regards,
Peter

Well , not yet . But...
when I do the swap , it says " must reconnect all your devices for the new settings " . I guess I will try to reboot instead .

[stefanobilliani]

Haha.

But do you happen to know what happens when you swap the state of that power management back and *then* reboot into Normal ?
Not that this should be your procedure, but when this is confirmed I may be able to do something about it. May, because at this moment I have no clue what happens.

Regards,
Peter

Still do not know what happens , but I did try this : went to minimize OS , swap the USB 3 management to "disabling" . The from the same state , "enabled" again .
Back to Normal state OS . Confirmed that the disabling is uncheck . Try again Minimize OS , no effect : the OS stay normal .

For now I decide to let the management enabled .

Grazie

[Scroobius]

With the PCIe USB3.0, I found Scheme 1 (thanks Nick) and SFS=470 sounds good. Right now, my preference is with the PCIe USB3.0. That clarity is just addictive.

Interesting - I just thought I would try Scheme 1 using my mobo USB3 and it just does not sound right. I have a PCIe USB3 card winging its way to me now so it will be interesting to try it again when it is installed and working. I shall report back findings.

Thanks to Nick "The TweekMeister" for his USB3 observations.

All the best

Paul

[Scroobius]

Hello Fellow obsessives 

PCIe USB3 card arrived today and quickly installed. OK OK I did read what Mani said about his driver problem but that was not going to happen to me was it?. Wrong - after I installed the new drivers and plugging in NOS1 yes you've guessed it - BSOD. Great!!!. Anyway after a quick roll back to the older drivers that were already installed everything works fine.

And the sound quality?. Well I would say that it is indeed better with the PCIe USB3 -clearer & sharper etched. But the interesting thing is this. Always before - Scheme 3 has been the best option (in this system). Scheme 1 just did not sound right with mobo USB3.

All that has changed and with PCIe UBS3 Scheme 1 sounds better.

Tweekers paradise !!!!

All the best

Paul

[Nick]

Hello Fellow obsessives 

And the sound quality?. Well I would say that it is indeed better with the PCIe USB3 -clearer & sharper etched. But the interesting thing is this. Always before - Scheme 3 has been the best option (in this system). Scheme 1 just did not sound right with mobo USB3.

All that has changed and with PCIe UBS3 Scheme 1 sounds better.

Tweekers paradise !!!!

Paul hi,

So pleased that you have had a good experience with the PCIe card. Boy the detail level is something particularly with scheme 1 ! I hope your system has reached new hights of sound and comfort this week 

Don't stay up too late 

Best,

Nick.

[arvind]

Hi Peter,



Finally got down to trying out USB 3.0. I have the cable & adapter, but the problem I am facing is frequent dropout, every 20 secs or so. I checked in Task Manager & these dropouts don't coincide with the SFS peak load of the CPU. What could be the possible reason & solution?



I am using the Gigabyte mobo USB 3.0 port. I have not been able to disable the USB 2.0 ports through BIOS since it does not have provision for disabling 2.0 only, I end up disabling 3.0 also. The external HDD, containing music files, is also connected to the USB 3.0 port.



Best regards,



Arvind

[PeterSt]

The external HDD, containing music files, is also connected to the USB 3.0 port.

Hi Arvind,

"The" USB3 port ? or "the other" USB3 port ... ?

Is this in Minimized OS mode (and Unattended) ?

How long does the dropout last ?
If you halve the Sample Rate (in XXHighEnd), do the dropouts stay away twice as long ?

I myself never experienced such a thing, but maybe others have encountered something like this ?

[CoenP]

I experienced this dropout problem. Very annoying.

I reebooted several times to make shure the -latest- driver is properly installed. I guess you also have the nec/renesas usb chip; the usb3 control panel that can be found in the start-programs area provides a checkbox to enable/disable the powersaving features. This should be off.

I did and undid a lot of stuff to solve this problem, but the combination of a recent driver and the powersaving off did the trick best. Second best was increasing the minimum cpu load% in the powersavings area of the control panel. This is not neccesary anymore.
Fyi I downloaded the latest driver from the Intel site (not the gigabyte one). Check your version of the usb driverchip first!

I guess it is the NEC/Renesas chip because the Etron doesn't seem to work at all (complaints all over the place, Google for it). In this case you better buy a pcie card with NEC/Renesas chip.

Regards, Coen

[arvind]

Hi Coen,

You were absolutely right, I had the old version of the NEC/Renesas driver. With the updated driver the dropouts have stopped.

Thanks a lot.

Arvind

[juanpmar]

With the PCI Nec USB 3.0 card I get the best sound ever (so far  ) . Clearly better than using the mb USB 3.0. The computer is working flawlessly. I installed the card using the driver recommended for Nick (thanks again Nick).

My PCIe card is the same as the Mani one and I connect it with the molex to the power supply (I haven´t tried it without that connection but it sounds so good that I don´t feel like to try it): http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B004S0Y9FK/ref=oh_o02_s00_i00_details

The driver is this one: http://drivers.softpedia.com/get/Other-DRIVERS-TOOLS/MSI/MSI-990FXA-GD65-Renesas-USB-3-0-Driver-20340.shtml

I turned off the USB 2.0 and Legacy in the bios.

All my setting remains the same as can be seen in my signature, including SFS.


Best regards,
Juan

[Nick]

With the PCI Nec USB 3.0 card I get the best sound ever (so far  ) . Clearly better than using the mb USB 3.0. The computer is working flawlessly. I installed the card using the driver recommended for Nick (thanks again Nick).

My PCIe card is the same as the Mani one and I connect it with the molex to the power supply (I haven´t tried it without that connection but it sounds so good that I don´t feel like to try it): http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B004S0Y9FK/ref=oh_o02_s00_i00_details

The driver is this one: http://drivers.softpedia.com/get/Other-DRIVERS-TOOLS/MSI/MSI-990FXA-GD65-Renesas-USB-3-0-Driver-20340.shtml

I turned off the USB 2.0 and Legacy in the bios.

All my setting remains the same as can be seen in my signature, including SFS.


Best regards,
Juan

Juan,

Good to hear that the card works so well. I think there is a definite evidence now that this particular card / chipset tends to out perform some motherboard USB3 ports which is good for us all to know.

Have a go with processor scheme 1 (you are showing Scheme 3 in your signature), the detail level is crazy :-) but it still manages to sound right.

Best Nick.

[juanpmar]

Hi Nick,

Just a quick try with the Scheme 1 give me a sense of sharpness but I loose a little of the beautiful smoothness of the scheme 3 that on the other hand is also very, very detailed. Also the voice seems more "human" or "real" with the scheme 3. I need more time to verify it though.

Best regards,
Juan

[listening]

Hi Nick, hi Juan,

actually I'm switching from Juli to USB transport. I ordered the same card as Nick and I am using the same driver and disabled the Mobo USB 2. The chain is: USB 3.0, standard USB 2.0 cable as used in recording studios, USB 2.0 Hub (cut the 5 V and replaced by battery), pluging Hiface via male-male adapter directly into the battery powered DAC. It's a remarkable evolution in musical details.

Georg

[Nick]

Juan hi,

Interesting findings for Scheme 1, I think Mani has a very high end PC as well now and also mentioned a slight sharpness using scheme 1. I will soon be able to test on a new 12 core PC myself, the parts for my demi monster PC build have started to arrive today .

Listening,

A lot of posts have been from NOS1 users so it’s good to know that the HiFace also benefits. I will be helping a friend build a setup based around a HiFace very soon so I will spec a USB card for his PC, thanks.

Regards,

[juanpmar]

I´ve been the last few days listening both configurations, the one with all the cores working at the same time, including the virtual ones (12 cores), and the other one with just the "real" 6 cores and the other 6 working when needed. At the end I can´t reach a definitive conclusion. Both ways sound very well. I think that there are differences though. It seems to me that working with all the cores at the same time gives a more clear sound but sometimes it looks kind of metallic, I use this expression with some prevention because I´m not sure if I make justice to the sound using that word, as I said it sounds really well. The bass seems to be in the dry side and the smoothness is a little on the cool side.
On the other hand the sound with just the 6 cores plus the other 6 when needed seems to be smoother and detailed at the same time, bigger bass and sound-stage but a little blurred in comparison with the other way (again to be fair I use also this word with some prevention).
So which way I prefer, I don´t know, maybe I feel more comfortable with the 6 cores way, but it could be because I´m more used to it. Further tests should be made and maybe changing also SFS and other settings in the "all cores" way. But Nick, I leave it to you because you are the recognized master of tweaking and fine tuning XX. 
Btw, yes we must give Gonzalito the kudos for being the first one to bring this issue here.
Also thank you for your kind words about helping you to build your great Pc.

Best regards,
Juan

[Nick]

Juan hi,

I have my system back up now and have been having a go at tunning the recently built pc. At the moment I have all cores unparked, I will try both configs as well.

After a couple of days playing around the sound is really great. I'll post a few notes on what has worked. I'v not done anything new, mainly stuff that we have come across before but boy the ASUS X79 / 3930 CPU really, really responds 

This SoTM card looks interesting, seems like it may not be available yet but could be a useful upgrade.
 
http://www.sotm-audio.com/products7.php

Nick.

[juanpmar]

Hi Nick,

I'd like to try that USB card whenever it is available.
It seems that we are waiting to many interesting things these days as the highly-anticipated 0.9z-7 and the changes it could bring us.
Let us know your findings with your new pc.

Best regards,
Juan

[praphan]

This SoTM card looks interesting, seems like it may not be available yet but could be a useful upgrade.
 
http://www.sotm-audio.com/products7.php

Nick.

I am currently running NOS1 USB through SOtM tx-USB with satisfactory result. Folks on CA forum have mentioned about tx-USBexp for quite a while but no one knows the release date. I used to order stuff directly from Korea. So I recently wrote to them asking if they use NEC/Renesas chipset and about the release date. So far no response.

Hope they don't use Etron Tech chipset since its drivers (all versions) are not compatible with NOS1 USB.

Regards,
Praphan

[boleary]

Using a Startech card as suggested by Nick I have interesting results. Using either a standard USB 2 cable or a USB 3 with adapter, the NOS1 DAC driver is recognized (it appears in Device Manager), but when I try to play a song the OS crashes. However, I can use the standard Hiface plugged into the Startech card, then into a 24/192 Dac, my Denon 4806, and all works well.

Might my 32 bit system be an issue here?

[Nick]

Using a Startech card as suggested by Nick I have interesting results. Using either a standard USB 2 cable or a USB 3 with adapter, the NOS1 DAC driver is recognized (it appears in Device Manager), but when I try to play a song the OS crashes. However, I can use the standard Hiface plugged into the Startech card, then into a 24/192 Dac, my Denon 4806, and all works well.

Might my 32 bit system be an issue here?

Brian hi,

Which version of the Renesas driver software are you using ?

Version 2.0.34.0 is the version known to work ok with the NOS1 USB. As far as I know most folks are using 64bit OS with this version of the driver, but I would start by checking this first. I think there may be a link or a mention as to where the driver can be downloaded earlier in this topic if you don't have it.

Best Nick.

[juanpmar]

Hi Brian,
Here you can download the driver:
http://drivers.softpedia.com/get/Other-DRIVERS-TOOLS/MSI/MSI-990FXA-GD65-Renesas-USB-3-0-Driver-20340.shtml

Regards,
Juan

[boleary]

Thanks Guys, I'll give it a try when i get home this evening.

[praphan]

Folks on CA forum have mentioned about tx-USBexp for quite a while but no one knows the release date. I used to order stuff directly from Korea. So I recently wrote to them asking if they use NEC/Renesas chipset and about the release date. So far no response.

Hope they don't use Etron Tech chipset since its drivers (all versions) are not compatible with NOS1 USB.

Regards,
Praphan

Hello,

I had a reply from SOtM. They will release tx-USBexp in late June.

Not a Renesas chipset but Texas Instrument 7320 instead. http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tusb7320.pdf

From the data manual, any chance to predict the compatibility of its driver with NOS1 USB?  Can be too expensive for a wild experiment. I expect that it will carry a price tag of USD 300+

Best regards,
Praphan

[Nick]

Hi,

I was looking for better ways to establish a good signal ground from my PC into rest of my system. In my case the PC connects to a NOS1 USB.

The signal ground for the whole of my system is established from the connection to the ground of the USB port on the PC (and via the PC's ATx supply back to the mains earth) this follows Peters design for the NOS1 USB (Peter, please straighten me out if I am going wrong  ). Working the ground back towards the mains earth, as I use a PCIe USB 3 card (as a lot of us are using now) the ground is referenced from about three of the edge connection pins between the PCIe card and the motherboard PCIe bus. From the bus connector it goes over the motherboard back to the motherboard 24 pin ATx connector and via one of the earth leads back the the ATx ground plain in the supply.

It could be better....It got me thinking most PCIe USB 3 cards have that molex or SATA power connector (to provide enought current for the USB 3.0 in line power standard). These aux power connectors are bad for sound if connected as they are no use to put clean power into the USB chipset BUT the aux power socket is connected to the PCIe USB cards ground plain with a much better connection than the ground pins of the PCIe bus AND you can choose how the ground is routed from here back to the ATx supply.

To see if the ground connection could be improved, I took a molex to SATA power wiring link and cut the 12v and 5v power wires (yellow and red) leaving just the black ground wires intact. This was pluged into the PCIe USB card SATA power connector and from here the aim was to connect back in the cleanest way possible to the ATx supply. In my case I have a modular type ATx supply so I was able to run a dedicated molex distribution lead with no other periferal devices connected to it from the ATx supply directly to the ground only connection to the PCIe USB card.

I think this has helped sound quality in my system but a lot has changed recently so it's hard to be specific about the exact changes. It may be worth giving this a try particularly if you have a system who's signal ground if referenced to the USB ground.

It would be good to know if this works for others.

Regards,

Nick

Ps I was determined to find a use for that aux power connection 

[boleary]

Hey Nick, any chance you could post a photo of your latest tweek? I think I need to generally "see" what you mean, and particularly what the "ATx supply" is. No technical knowledge here.....

Oh, and thanks to both you and Juan, my Startech card now works with the recomended driver. Very much appreciate. The sound is great.

[PeterSt]

The signal ground for the whole of my system is established from the connection to the ground of the USB port on the PC (and via the PC's ATx supply back to the mains earth) this follows Peters design for the NOS1 USB (Peter, please straighten me out if I am going wrong  ).

The contrary Nick; The whole of your description sounds to my heart, although I can't judge whether you really accomplished what you want. I think you hope you did, but how to be sure ? You'd almost need to cut the ground PCIe fingers which go into the bus slot. Or ?

When indeed you think you can't be sure yourself, what I would do is trying to put power to the PCIe card first, before the whole MoBo (officially) is powered up. With that you will (hopefully) have created a "current loop" which should stay when the MoBo is powered up (but read : when the OS is started).
Then I would still like to check it, by means of looking at the currents flowing, although then I see a problem with some references. This almost comes down to looking at the current in the ground lead (somewhere) of the PCIe towards the MoBo without the Molex connection, which is to be compared with the Molex connection being active. In that latter case the current through the PCIe (fingers, so to speak) should drop obviously.
Where to stuff in those multimeter leads is something else. At the Molex side this is easy of course. Ehm, take out the PCIe card, measure the consumption of the whole PC in Wattage at the wall outlet, write down the difference with-PCIe and next calculate the Amperes the PCIe should be taken and try to find that back in the Molex connection later ?

[Nick]

The contrary Nick; The whole of your description sounds to my heart, although I can't judge whether you really accomplished what you want. I think you hope you did, but how to be sure ? You'd almost need to cut the ground PCIe fingers which go into the bus slot. Or ?

Peter,

At the moment I have the two ground paths (not ideal I know, one via the molex and the other via the mother board) as I have not yet cut the PCIe edge connector pin ground traces. I wanted to order another PCIe board first to make comparison of any effect easier.

Results so far really rely on the return resistance of the molex ground route [hopefully] being lower than via the Mobo and therefore establishing the current return via this route first.

More tests coming up soon with cut tracks.

When indeed you think you can't be sure yourself, what I would do is trying to put power to the PCIe card first, before the whole MoBo (officially) is powered up. With that you will (hopefully) have created a "current loop" which should stay when the MoBo is powered up (but read : when the OS is started).
Then I would still like to check it, by means of looking at the currents flowing, although then I see a problem with some references. This almost comes down to looking at the current in the ground lead (somewhere) of the PCIe towards the MoBo without the Molex connection, which is to be compared with the Molex connection being active. In that latter case the current through the PCIe (fingers, so to speak) should drop obviously.
Where to stuff in those multimeter leads is something else. At the Molex side this is easy of course. Ehm, take out the PCIe card, measure the consumption of the whole PC in Wattage at the wall outlet, write down the difference with-PCIe and next calculate the Amperes the PCIe should be taken and try to find that back in the Molex connection later ?

Defiantly agree with your logic here.

As an observation where I have generated alternate grounds for other components such as HDDs (when applying linear supplies) I have found that Bass SQ in particular often suffers unless the ground to the component (HDD etc) is still referenced back directly to the ATx grounds.


Best Nick.

[Nick]

More tests coming up soon with cut tracks.

So I cut the ground pin tracks on the PCIe card so that the ground was provided only via the Molex connector back to the ATx PC Power Supply. This gave an interesting if not successful effect.

Bass had the best delineation and tone differentiation I have heard from my system, like listening to a melody played out in the mid range but delivered with Bass frequency notes, nice. Bass weight dropped overall however.

The real problem and the reason the experiment is not successful overall is that the sound is thin and forward eg voices lost the sense weight and tone of a real person singing and the depth and tonal of instruments is to a large extend lost.

I have seen this presentation before when tweaking USB PCI cards. If I had to guess I think the improved analogue ground did significantly improve bass, stereo image and sound noise floor a lot, but the digital transmission to the card suffers from the ground changes resulting in the characteristic thinness.

I would not recommend anyone try cutting the ground traces, but I will listen to a [new] USB 3 board with and without the molex earth arrangements to see if this gives any sort of SQ edge post findings.

Anyway a good excuse to use Mobo USB 3 [not too bad actually] whilst the new PCIe USB 3 card is delivered.

Nick

[Telstar]

Great choice for the pcie controller. I was going to get the much more expensive Buffalo card.

I see that nobody tried to power completely the card from an external (linear/battery) PSU.

The ground separation was an interesting idea but i think is better to cut all power lines and power externally, but i dunno if:
1- the card is still recognized, depends on pcie pinout which i dunno.
2- the power will be enough. the older version of this controller or a different one may be required to achieve this.

[Tore]

I want to try USB3 and have found some cards with 4 USB3 ports.

They have this chip: NEC uPD720201

Older cards have this chip: NEC uPD720200

Do you think it will be problems with the new chip?

Is it OK for the NOS1 driver?

Tore

[PeterSt]

Tore, I hope someone else can help out, because I am really not experienced on the USB3 cards ...

Peter

[Tore]

This is the 4 port USB 3.0 PCIe card:
http://vr-zone.com/articles/buffalo-launches-4-port-renesas-based-usb-3.0-card/13741.html


Tore

[praphan]

Hi Tore,

This card should be fine since it is driven by NEC/Renesas driver. I think you can find a cheaper two ports card which works well too. A number of us here uses TeckNet or Star Tech PCIe USB3 cards.

Praphan

[Tore]

Thanks Praphan!


Tore

[juanpmar]

Hi Tore,

This is the one I use and the sound is beatuful and no problems at all: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B004S0Y9FK/ref=oh_o02_s00_i00_details

There is other four ports card but read the reviews: http://www.amazon.co.uk/TeckNet-USB-Ports-Express-Card/dp/B005LV3Z0A/ref=sr_1_3?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1353332152&sr=1-3

Best regards,
Juan

[Tore]

Hi Juan!

I have seen that 4 port card and it have wrong chip


I want 4 ports for NOS1, USB key (playback drive), HDD (music) and USB bluetooth (keyboord/mouse)


Tore

[juanpmar]

Hi Juan!

I have seen that 4 port card and it have wrong chip


I want 4 ports for NOS1, USB key (playback drive), HDD (music) and USB bluetooth (keyboord/mouse)


Tore

You could use a powered USB 3.0 hub for the Playback drive (key) or use the RAMDisk as Playback Drive. Don´t need more than 2 USB 3.0 ports and the hub. Now I´m only using one port, the one for the NOS1, and the sound is fantastic.

Juan

[PeterSt]

Allow me Juan,

You could use a powered USB 3.0 hub for the Playback drive (key) or use the RAMDisk as Playback Drive.

This may be a bit too fast, that "or use the RAMDisk". It is an option of course, but it should be an option to choose from at all times. Not prohibit yourself from it (by choosing a certain combination in advance).
But I'm sure that's how it was meant !

Peter

[juanpmar]

Allow me Juan,

You could use a powered USB 3.0 hub for the Playback drive (key) or use the RAMDisk as Playback Drive.

This may be a bit too fast, that "or use the RAMDisk". It is an option of course, but it should be an option to choose from at all times. Not prohibit yourself from it (by choosing a certain combination in advance).
But I'm sure that's how it was meant !



Peter

Yes Peter, you are right, must be an option open to both possibilities. Sorry if I haven´t expressed myself correctly. As you can see in my signature I can use both, the external hdd and the RAMDisk. The USB 3.0 PCIe I have has only two ports, when I need more ports for whatever reason I use the USB 3.0 hub. At this moment I´m using only the RAMDisk, that means that I only use one port from the PCIe as my music is in an internal hdd (and in an internal SSD for Galleries). I´m trying to experiment with the most simple possible setup, that means as less possible devices connected and the result so far is a very clean sound.

Best regards,
Juan

[Tore]

Many thanks, Juan

[Tore]

The Buffalo USB 3.0 PCIe card is inside my PC now and is working with everything except with my NOS1 USB ??

This is the card: http://vr-zone.com/articles/buffalo-launches-4-port-renesas-based-usb-3.0-card/13741.html

When i choose Phasure USB Audio Control Panel the screen is getting blue and with this text: Windows have  found a problem and to prevent damage the PC is shut down .

The same is happening when i try playing with xxhighend.

Can someone help me with this?


Tore

[Nick]

The Buffalo USB 3.0 PCIe card is inside my PC now and is working with everything except with my NOS1 USB ??

This is the card: http://vr-zone.com/articles/buffalo-launches-4-port-renesas-based-usb-3.0-card/13741.html

When i choose Phasure USB Audio Control Panel the screen is getting blue and with this text: Windows have  found a problem and to prevent damage the PC is shut down .

The same is happening when i try playing with xxhighend.

Can someone help me with this?


Tore

Tore hi,

Sounds like it could be the USB 3 driver version that you have for the card. When I first tried the 2 port card the driver that came with the card would not drive the NOS1. For the two port Renesas chipset this driver version works and sounds good.

Renesas USB 3.0 Driver 2.0.34.0

Might be worth finding a copy and trying this assuming it will drive the 4 port card as well. If it won't drive the 4 port card try alternate version for the four port chipset. With luck this will get you going .

Cheers,

Nick.

[PeterSt]

Windows have  found a problem and to prevent damage the PC is shut down .

Tore,

In my experience, when such a message appears, it is just true what it says, and things are electrically wrong (too much current flowing somewhere).
What I can't tell is whether this is a bad card or just a "bad" driver or whatever.

When you say "it works with everything but not with the NOS1" this doesn't tell much, because the NOS1 driver runs at a higher speed (remember, this is net 32/705.6) which will automatically imply higher currents. Otoh, when this is really an USB3 card it should be capable of much higher speeds than what the NOS1 implies.

Do notice that it is not guaranteed at all that a random USB3 card is fully compatible. A first thing it may imply is a higher latency. This is a bit in the realm of what Nick advised you -drivers which may play a role.
When you can go into the NOS1 driver panel, you can try to set the (buffer) latency to 16ms and see whether that helps.

Anyway, regard the message as serious and possibly you can talk about that with Buffalo. And may it be important : the NOS1 driver is 100% USB class 2 compliant.

Regards,
Peter

[Tore]

I connected NOS1 to the PC with USB 2.0 just to set latecy to 16ms.
Then a was getting a little longer. Nothing happend when i choose Phasure USB Audio Control Panel .

But when i tried playing music i got this message: Set State (pause) error on pin.

I have tried Nicks driver, with that one nothing works.
And i have tried to other drivers, same message :
Windows have  found a problem and to prevent damage the PC is shut down.

[Tore]

After that first time with latency 16ms i get the same message with this setting to: Windows have  found a problem and to prevent damage the PC is shut down.


When i connect NOS1 to the USB 3.0 port i get the normal green light inside NOS1

Tore

[juanpmar]

Hey Tore!,

Sorry for being so tiring repeating the same thing again. If I were you I´d buy the PCIe card that I recommended in a previous post, the same one also others use here, it is only 9GBP and works perfectly with the MSI Big Bang-XPower II Renesas USB 3.0 Driver 2.0.34.0 that you can download here: http://drivers.softpedia.com/dyn-postdownload.php?p=145471&t=0&i=2

Try it and if it works in your computer at least you´ll know that the problem is in your Buffalo PCIe and not in the computer.

Cheers,
Juan

[PeterSt]

Tore,

From your description now, all I can say is that it's not a "too much current needed" problem (this could have been the case, but not so anymore now).

Under this message "the PC is shut down" etc., there will be a word in capitals on a separate line. What is that word ?

Regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

Stupid question : Did you connect the addtional power to the card ?

When you are in the stage of being able to bring up the NOS1 Driver Control Panel, does it say at the bottom that streaming is running ?
(when Yes, please check again whether playback still is not possible with that Paused Pin thing message and let me know the result)

What you can try is uninstall the NOS1 driver and reinstall it (take care that the USB3 card is in the PC at that moment).

[Tore]

The blue screen with text is ther only 1 second, but in the next line i can read : Driver equal not ....

The card is connected with powercord inside PC.

I have alredy tried to reinstal the NOS1 driver

Tore

[PeterSt]

That would be "driver equal not zero" I think but I'm not sure whether this "driver" isn't to be extended to a longer "word".

Anyway, I don't think I can be of any help much.

What you additionally can try is set the Device in the NOS1 Driver Control panel to "2 channels reduced". If it then works it must be something about the 4 channels. And when you're at it anyway, why not set the Sampling Rate to 44100.
From all this you could learn whether it's bandwidth related.

Peter

[Tore]

Peter, this is the text : Driver IRQL not less or equel

What does that mean?

I have tried the two things you suggested but it was no succsess.

Tore

[PeterSt]

Hi Tore - Nothing I can do anything with. Something with an "interrupt" not working I'd say.

Not that I would *really* like you to do it when you are not confident with it, but did you install the latest motherboard drivers ? (I don't think I would like to do that in such a situation where actually all was right (outside this of course)).

Peter

PS: You can always feed this message to Google and get an idea about what to do, especially for those (people) who could solve it. Btw, change your "equel" to "equal".

[Tore]

YES, it is working with this driver : http://drivers.softpedia.com/get/Other-DRIVERS-TOOLS/Renesas/Renesas-Electronics-uPD720201-uPD720202-USB-30-Driver-30200.shtml


And all my drivers is updated with this program : http://driverwhiz.com/

But i have a new problem: It is a load crack when i start playing. The problem is there only with Phase Alignment on and with NOS1 connected to USB 3.0

This is the 4 port USB 3.0 card : http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fullshop-BUFFALO-IFC-PCIE4U3S-USB-3-0-PCI-Express-Interface-Card-4-Ports-/121023941179?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2d96ca3b

Tore

[PeterSt]

Ha !!

But i have a new problem: It is a load crack when i start playing. The problem is there only with Phase Alignment on and with NOS1 connected to USB 3.0

Very interesting. I say this, because apparently you didn't have this problem before while you know have it, PLUS others have this problem as well. Notice though that to me this seems not to be a particular USB3 problem, but a driver problem (with the notice that USB3 can do USB2 just the same). Anyway :

Especially for this the "After SFS Rounds" setting was created in XXHighEnd. So, set that to 1 and your problem will be over. BUT :
Think a little about the influence of this. So, when your SFS is very high (say in the 400 range) it will take 45 seconds or so before Phase Alignment engages, and this will not be what you want or like.
You can watch the Wallpaper Coverart for when Phase Alignment engages (watch for the *~* to appear instead of _~_).

But hey, good that you solved it !
Peter

[BertD]

YES, it is working with this driver : http://drivers.softpedia.com/get/Other-DRIVERS-TOOLS/Renesas/Renesas-Electronics-uPD720201-uPD720202-USB-30-Driver-30200.shtml

Thanks for the link Tore. I had some issues this afternoon using a different PC with different USB3 board and got blue screens as well and no way to get the NOS1 running.

The updates drivers work just fine and have solved some other issues as well! 

Bert

[Tore]

Hi Peter!

With the  "After SFS Rounds" on i don`t have the load crack when i start playing.

But sometimes (to often) i have this cracks when i listen to music.
When i turn off Phase Alignment ther is no cracks.


Tore

[PeterSt]

Tore,

Think like such a crack is just an interruption of the stream. So, it stops for a brief period. When you didn't have this before it must be dedicated to that interface cards and  something is wrong with it. "Wrong" is a tough word, because with some PC I have it myself that one time right after playback has started, and I ave no clue how to solve it (yes, that SFS Rounds but this is a backdoor solution).

Peter

[PeterSt]

Removed a post regarded as spam.
ptustephen, please refrain yourself from promoting general items with no merits other than possibly being cheap.

Peter