Cannot play more than one track in special or normal modes

[JonP01]

Hi,

I have the latest activated version of XXHighend installed on my HP dual core Atom netbook. Whilst I am very happy with the sound, I am having some problems with it.

The first problem is that when using unattended playback, I am unable to play more than one track in either Special or Normal modes. I can only play multiple tracks in Adaptive mode. That said, since the sound quality is significantly better using Special mode, I don't wish to use the Adaptive or Normal modes. What happens in Special mode is that after the first track has completed, I will receive an "End of Track" message (and I have to click on OK).

As I say, it works fine in Adaptive mode, but there is a significant improvement in sound quality with Special mode, so I do not want to change modes simply to avoid this problem.

At first I thought this might have had something to do with my SFS setting (which is set at 80). But I tried reducing it to much lower settings (even as low as 5) and it made no difference whatsoever. I also tried changing a number of other settings. Minimising the OS and stopping services (or not) also makes no difference - it seems that the issue is solely due to running in Special mode.

Also, even if I do not run in unattended mode (so I have the GUI up all the time), I am still receiving these annoying "End of Track" messages each and every time a track ends. I already know the track has ended - I don't need the program to tell me this - ever - and I am sick and tired of having to keep dismissing these annoying messages each and every time a track finishes.

That said, there are no other symptoms at all from running in Special mode - no sound glitches, dropouts or any other problems - it is just that I can't play more than one track, which is annoying because every time I want to play a new track I have to wait for the GUI to restore itself then manually start the next track. And these annoying dialog boxes are driving me nuts.

And just on the subject of unwanted messages, when I run in unattended mode there is another dialog box that comes up telling me something about waiting for services to stop and there is an OK button. Although it dismisses itself on it's own, I don't want to see this dialog box but there does not seem to be any way to supress it.

[PeterSt]

Jon,

Halfway down your post I started to laugh because I was sure you were kidding (with) me. But after reading it all, it now seems that (you are serious and) don't see what's going on. But it's not *that* difficult :

That End of Track message is an ERROR message. I think there's a red icon on it (not sure). So, while you start out your post with telling that something must be wrong, it seems that you ended up in thinking that this message holds back further playback; of course not. It's just an error. More about it below.

The Waiting for Services to stop is similar. This time there's an Information icon. It's harmless, and as you have seen you don't need to click it away or something. But now see what you want from me : remove such a message so that you will be waiting in the blind before playback starts, not knowing what is going on (and depending on the situation this can really take a minute or 2 !). Is that what you want ?
Of course not. You want to be informed about what's going on with your (not) playback. And merely : what if something is going on like the End of Track without a message - how would you tell me about what's happening ? "Het Peter, I jave no sound man. Let's do something about that !".

Hey, this was kidding you now. Just in case. Hahaha.

All right. End of Track after each track ? Especially and foremost in Unattended Mode that seems impossible, but since you have that, what's next;

It must be about a super special (read : to me unknown) way your DAC or interface is operating. But this is too far sought. So for now I'd rather like to fall back to the ever the same story : your netbook is not on par. Well, it can't already because I always say so, but in this case I'd rather like to reason out why. Let's tray that togther :

You could try to load a FLAC album for Unattended Playback and see how long that takes. So, get that album in the Playlist Area and press Play on the first track. Does it take less than 5 seconds ? then your netbook is okay. Notice that only the best systems will do it in a second or so.
But how long does it take really in your situation ? could be 30 seconds. Could be 60. Now, the time it takes is an important indication because similarly happens in between track boundaries. In this case though you hard disc may have spun down while it is needed. There's even some logic in me that tells me that your music hdd is another than the OS's (if so, try to play an album from the OS disc for trials). Anyway, when the disc has to spin up, that may take a too long time. That's "laptop" stuff again (don't draw the battery !); look into your powerscheme settings whether the discs are to spin down after a minute. When so, set it to 5 or more but only for trials again (hence set if back later when it doesn't help anyway).

When the discs don't spin down, I like to take it for granted that all is too slow to cope. Notice that there's 14 seconds to do everything and all for this next track, which for Unattended is without FLAC decoding (that already happened earlier in that case). But it still is about copying the track, depending on further settings. Try to change the Priorities and preferrably set them both to Nothing and reboot before you try again.

I can speculate some more, but then I want to know the "load time" of that FLAC album first. Don't do a same album two times in a row without quitting XXHighEnd in between, or otherwise it will confuse the reliability of the result.

And oh, the End of Track message tells me literaly "End of music data in unexpected fashion".

Super disclaimer which must come along with the above : I really don't see how Special Mode can be different to the others, merely meaning that I never saw a difference between those modes. But, technical differences for sure are there and they logically can make the difference you perceive. But the disclaimer is about how I started talking about this subject : a very strange behaving DAC/Interface looks much more logic to me for this problem. So let me know what it is, and please put the lot in your sig because "tomorrow" I will have forgotton it.

Let me know Jon !
Peter

[JonP01]

Hi Peter,

My gear is now listed in my signature. The HP Mini has an OCZ Octane SSD installed - so there is no mechanical drive involved and the music resides on this solid state drive as well.

If I load a FLAC album (around 62 minutes worth) it will take about 28 seconds from pressing the play button to the point where the music begins to play (this is in unattended mode, minimised OS). Of course the second time around it is only around 5 seconds, but these tests averaging 28 seconds were done immediately after cold reboots. I should mention that I do not listen to FLAC though, I only listen to WAV files.

Although I have a solid state drive I did try changing the power profile so as to never power off the drive, but it did not help - I still get the problem.

I also tried changing the priorities as you mentioned (there is no "nothing" option - only "normal"). I tried "normal" for both and this did not help either.

[PeterSt]

Ok Jon, thank you for your trials and answers.

So, your netbook isn't the fastest, but it also looks doable. Or at least not to be the problem here. But now your DAC. So, that *is* a strange duck ...

Before blaming something which isn't to blame, could you try the internal speakers or something ? I mean, your mobo will have onboard sound I suppose, so what happens when you play to that with the further same settings ? Does the same happen ?
Be careful, because your mobo's soundcard may not support 16/44.1 or even multiples. In that case try to find a 24/48 (or 24/96 when your DAC can play that - also see below). Notice that XXHighEnd only plays in Exclusive Mode, thus the OS can't resample.

Also, and to be sure I'm looking at it all from the correct angle : at what output rate (from XXHighEnd) do you play ?

Thanks,
Peter

[JonP01]

Hi Peter,

All my wav files are 16 bit, 48 khz. They are my own analogue to digital transcriptions of my vinyl collection and I dither the 24 bit conversions to 16 bits using iZotope so that they are compatible with the 16 bit Chordette Gem DAC that I use with the system in my signature. Incidentally, if the DAC is the "problem", I won't be changing it as I absolutely love the sound of it - it is one of the very few digital products I have heard that give me that "analogue" experience.

I have not yet tried the onboard sound. I will, but I need to enable it and load the drivers - currently it is of course disabled completely.

I was doing further tests tonight and this included making sure that changing the buffers, quality settings and clock settings did not help (none of them did).

But then I found something interesting. I listened to a very long, single track (Beethoven Violin Concerto transcription from the DG LP 138999). This is around 47 minutes long with a file size of 515MB at 16 bit, 48 Khz. Not only did XXHighEnd play this track flawlessly, but there was no "End of Track" error message at the end of it.

So this got me experimenting with a number of different file lengths to see if this had something to do with it. Sure enough, after trying many different lengths, I have found that file sizes somewhere around the 9 minute 30 second mark (or larger) play perfectly with no error messages, and I can play as many as I like in unattended mode!

But files of 9 minutes or less give the error message and the unattended playback stops after the first file.

At the moment, I am still experimenting to find the precise length of file at which the unattended playback works and where it fails, but it is definitely somewhere between 9 minutes and 9 minutes, 30 seconds!

I also want to experiment to see if this time limit really is a time limit or it is a file size limit ( I guess test FLAC files and testing 16/44.1 files might help here, but first I need to know exactly how many seconds past 9 minutes represents a "safe" file.

Anyway, the one good thing in this case is that because 95% of my listening is to classical (and the files are my LP transcriptions), it is comparatively rare that I would have single files that are less than 9 minutes, 30 seconds long.

When I originally posted I was worried that I might not be able to play my music properly at all in unattended mode, however at the very least it looks like I will be able to compromise by ensuring I never have a track that is less than 9 minutes-and-something long.

Yesterday was the first day I have used XXHighEnd in non-demo mode, having only bought it yesterday. I had assumed the issues I have reported in this thread were a demo limitation (as the documentation says the program may randomly stop playing in demo mode). So you can imagine I was concerned when the problem remained after activating it.

I don't know if this 9 minutes 30 seconds lower limit means anything to you - it is suspiciously close (in file size terms) to the 100MB SFS limit I have XXHighEnd set to, but when I changed it all the way down to only 5, this should have let any of my test files play without problems. And it didn't.

But at least I have a partial (and workable) solution here. 

[JonP01]

Well the magic number is precisely 8 minutes and 41 seconds. So long as a track is this length or longer, I have absolutely no problems with multiple tracks in unattended mode. But if the track length is 8 minutes and 40 seconds or less, then multiple track playback is not possible as I get the End of Track error message.

It does not seem to be dependant on the file size, as the FLAC files I tested were tiny yet caused no issues.

So Peter, I dont know if 521 seconds is meaningful to you in respect of XXHighEnd or Windows 7, but it is certainly a magic number in so far as being able to use unattended mode in my case.

[PeterSt]

Jon, this is crazy !
As is the time you spent on this. I sure hope you normally listened to music in the mean time.

How are you able to find this exact number of seconds ? Trying smaller/larger/smaller/larger etc etc until you are there ? Finding tracks of the proper length seems to need half of the time.
Anyway, welcome to the pool of phools. Without election we all denote you the head of it. Wow.

OK. Can you tell me, is this all exclusivley 16/48 ?

Are you 100% sure that this 16/48 plays at the proper speed and not ~10% too slow ? I mean, there is an issue with this (dealt with in another topic, but not important for you within itself), and this could be related. Or what I would like better : I even see the logic of something like this happening in the case the speed is too slow.

Thanks for all your efforts Jon. We will find the culprit ...
Peter

[JonP01]

Hi Peter,

Yes, I spent many hours creating test files - hundreds of them of all different length timings. They each consisted of an ascending sine wave (in frequency) at -60dBFS so I could just listen in ocassionally to check they were working without assaulting my ears. In the end, if they worked properly then there were no error messages and at the end of the batches of 4, the GUI would reappear without any error messages. Obviously it took me longer to zero in on the exact 8 minutes 41 seconds, since I had to test 8 minutes 40, 8 minutes 45, 44, 43, 42, etc.

There are no concerns about slow playback or pitch issues. I am cursed with perfect pitch (I used to be a violinist) so I can easily tell if the music is not at the correct pitch.

The testing was done exclusively at 16/48. Given I have already spent about 10 hours on it solid I don't really feel like repeating it all at 16/44.1 since I will never ever be listening to any files at that resolution on this particular setup - it will always be 16/48 one way or the other, since the music will be either my vinyl transcriptions converted to 16/48 or high resolution downloads that I convert to 16/48.

I still have not tested the onboard sound with this - I intend to though, if only to know if it is the DAC or not.

[PeterSt]

Jon - thanks again.

Just in case : 9z-5-2: Wrong pitch with 48khz at x4. Please read this, because I want to know where the differences are with your case. The first thing you will say is that you don't use the (4x) upsampling, I think, but maybe you see other things I can't.

Like I said in there : most probably it will be a bug on my side, but it looks to be an OS issue - found from two different angles. You might be the third.
Anyway, I think you already said it somewhere, but now I know this is about 16/48, do you upsample this by means of Arc Prediction ? If yes, how many times ?

Do you use your DAC with "Needs 32" or "Needs 24" ?
(or is it set at "DAC Is 16/48" which I also can imagine)

Sorry if you already answered upon this, but I want to know it precisely because it is important.

Peter

[JonP01]

Hi Peter,

My DAC is strictly a 16 bit DAC which is limited to 48 Khz. The only possible settings are 16 bit/44.1 Khz and 16 bit/48 khz. It does not handle 24 bits and it does not handle any sample rate exceeding 48 Khz. Therefore the oversampling options, filtering options etc in XXHighEnd are unavailable and I cannot test them for you or offer any insight into this part of the question.

The DAC is configured in XXHighEnd as a 16 bit, 48 Khz DAC.

I decided to test 16 bit/44.1 Khz and found that in this case, the minimum length file required is 9 minutes 28 seconds in order to avoid "End of Track" errors. Any file shorter in length than this reproduces the "End of Track" error.

As you would be well aware, a 16 bit, 44.1 Khz file with a length of 9 minutes 28 seconds is the same size as a 16 bit, 48 Khz file with a length of 8 minutes 41 seconds.

I also attempted to test the internal soundcard in the HP netbook, however upon testing I found that no Kernel Streaming options were available (only the WASAPI options). Accordingly, it was not possible to explicitly test Special (or Normal) modes. Given that the problem I have described in this thread is specific to Kernel Streaming Special and Normal modes, obviously I could not conduct any meaningful testing in this instance (apart from comfirming there are no problems with WASAPI mode but I already knew that with my external DAC).

[PeterSt]

As you would be well aware, a 16 bit, 44.1 Khz file with a length of 9 minutes 28 seconds is the same size as a 16 bit, 48 Khz file with a length of 8 minutes 41 seconds.

I am truly speechless Jon.


PS: Your conclusion about no need to test WASAPI is correct. And yes, the modern mobo drivers won't allow KS, just because MS *said* KS would be obsolete (but it can't be).

[PeterSt]

Sh*t, you must help me. I just don't see what can be going on here. But my first hunch about a "special DAC" must be true now.

For Unattende Mode, when it has happened, can you post the XX, X3 and X3PB log files ?
Please make sure that right before the attempt you kill XXEngine3.exe from memory, because otherwise the log files are not reliable (solved for z-7 of course).

Log files emerge in a \TemporaryData\ folder under your XX folder, after you've switched on logging (near the end in Settings).

To be ahead of things somewhat, tell me the length and track title of the file you played and which stopped at the end, and also the length of the file which was next in the playlist. I will be able to see that in the log files, but with these kind of things going on everything can be out of order.

[PeterSt]

And do you use a special driver for this DAC ?

Is it still true that this counts for KS Normal Mode as well ? (I recall that somewhere along the lines I read that Normal Mode just worked ?)
If so (not working as well) we must concentrate on the buffer size you apply to the DAC via XXHighEnd. The very best would be to continue this all with Normal Mode, because it, well, is normal. So, set the Device Buffer Size in XXHE to what you expect the DAC's buffer size is and next try some extremes for Q1. I know, you did something like this already, but it should influence the length (the boundary) of those tracks which do and do not keep on playing it it indeed is related to the buffer size ...

[PeterSt]

Ehm ... Re: Split file size and volume SFS=2 again.

???

If only that were true ...

[JonP01]

Log is attached. Playlist has three files, namely test_1.wav, test_2.wav, test_3.wav (in that order), each around 25 seconds in length at 16 bit, 48 khz.

End of Track message appears upon completion of test_1.wav at which point I have to bring up the GUI as it will no longer continue playing the other two.

[JonP01]

And do you use a special driver for this DAC ?

Is it still true that this counts for KS Normal Mode as well ? (I recall that somewhere along the lines I read that Normal Mode just worked ?)
If so (not working as well) we must concentrate on the buffer size you apply to the DAC via XXHighEnd. The very best would be to continue this all with Normal Mode, because it, well, is normal. So, set the Device Buffer Size in XXHE to what you expect the DAC's buffer size is and next try some extremes for Q1. I know, you did something like this already, but it should influence the length (the boundary) of those tracks which do and do not keep on playing it it indeed is related to the buffer size ...

As mentioned previously normal mode has the same problem as Special mode. Only Adaptive mode works but the sound quality is signiticantly inferior and not worth the trade off (sonics versus being able to play multiple files shorter than 8 minutes 41 seconds).

I did play around extensivbely with the buffer settings and Q1 settings yesterday (I spent several hours just on that) without success, so I don't think there is any value attempting that again.

I have not tried the garbage collection SFS 2 thing yet. I will try that now.

The DAC does not have a proprietary driver and I am just using the standard Microsoft one (i.e "USB Audio DAC" under Device Manager).

[JonP01]

OK, just tried it without garbage collection on and it made no difference. Then I tried it without garbage collection on and with an SFS of 2 and that was far worse again. It only played the first few seconds of the file before I got the End of Track error message.

[stefanobilliani]

OK, just tried it without garbage collection on and it made no difference. Then I tried it without garbage collection on and with an SFS of 2 and that was far worse again. It only played the first few seconds of the file before I got the End of Track error message.

I guess the "minimum" SFS quality is depending on PC organization , as I am accurately testing right now ... and finding that 2.0 is not good in my system , but 2.8 works .



Regards

s

[JonP01]

Hi Peter,

Unless you can find an obvious or easy to fix bug causing my problem then I would just say forget about it. It seems most likely that it is some wierd characteristic of my Chord DAC and that it would take an enormous amount of both yours and my time (in scenario testing) to try and resolve it.

Tonight I have been approaching the problem from another tack and have found a combination of settings that provide comparable sonic results in adaptive mode - to the point where I am happy to trade off adaptive mode for being able to play any length files in unattended mode without problems.

I could see the 8 minute 41 second limitation being a real pain in the long term, forcing me to be "hands on" with the computer far more than I want to be...and the popular music I listen to would be a real nightmare with that length restriction.

Thanks anyway, but I think this issue is one destined to live in the Twilight Zone.