Playback drive drive

[stefanobilliani]

Hi all ,

Would be of any interest or somehow good to "build" a music disk , formatted in the more convenient mode , with the files by the Playback Drive copied from time to time ? Then play them as "conventional" music files , not giving the work to XXHighEnd at each playlist load  ?



stefano

[PeterSt]

Okay, at least I don't understand.
Maybe rewrite this in a complete different fashion ?
haha

PS: When this is about the time needed for XXHighEnd to prepare things … that would be maybe 5 seconds for an album. Say 10.
Worth the trouble ? (whatever it is you exactly mean)

[manisandher]

Yep, I'm also confused by what Stefano posted.

But FWIW, I'm hoping to try the 'Playback Drive' feature later this week, comparing a 'fast' HDD vs. a 'very fast' SSD as the playback drive.

No one should underestimate the importance of this feature. I believe once more people use it, it will prove once and for all that the location of the music files is of utmost importance in SQ. 'Copy to XX drive' already shows this, but I think using a dedicated playback drive to provide more consistent results.

Mani.

[stefanobilliani]

Yes that is a bit confusing . I should just have asked ( out of curiosity ) if the files that goes into the "playback drive " are exactly the same as the ones from the music disk. But I am not sure I want to know , since I like what I hear now ( that my PC is rebuilded ) . And I like the feature .

:-)

stefano

[PeterSt]

Any file which is to be converted is not the same anyway of course. But no difference there regarding the "Copy to XXDrive" feature. This Playback Drive though, indeed like Mani suggests, also implies the same location. This is not just "that disk" because quite some more has to be arranged for before that happens (can happen). So this is all in there.

Don't confuse this with the fact that the Playback Drive - as a physical medium - can also have a sound on its own. So the feature is two-folded :
1. Same location;
2. You can chose what you like best, up to an microflash card etc. Once you (eh, we !) found the best, the sound should be consistent.

Regards,
Peter

[manisandher]

... I'm hoping to try the 'Playback Drive' feature later this week, comparing a 'fast' HDD vs. a 'very fast' SSD as the playback drive.

I've just installed two new drives into Le Monster - an OCZ Vertex 4 and an old HDD I had lying around. I've just initialized both volumes (GPT and 64K) and am in the process of creating two simple volumes & formatting. Once this is all done (in next 30 minutes or so) I'll start comparing them. I'll report findings later this evening...

(I may throw a USB pendrive into the mix if I can be bothered.)

(Incidentally, I have two fanless power supplies fitted in Le Monster. One is dedicated to the mobo & CPU, the other to the  HDDs, the SSD and the optical drive. When I have the inclination, I might try powering the whole PC from just one PS and see if there is any degradation in SQ.)

Mani.

[Scroobius]

For what its worth for the playback drive I tried a USB stick first and now I using a dedicated drive on one of my SATA discs that also happens to have all the music on it but of course on another dedicated drive of the same disc. The SQ is better than with the USB stick on this system (and the music loads quicker) - I will try other combinations at some point.

P

[manisandher]

OK, I've just compared a few different scenarios and here are my initial thoughts.

Drives:

C: 2.5 inch 300GB 15000rpm Raptor SATA II HDD (with W7 and XX)
E: two 3.5 inch 2TB 7200rpm Seagate Barracuda SATA III HDDs (3.7TB striped volume) with music
F: 2.5 inch 128GB Vertex 4 Sata III SSD
G: 3.5 inch 720GB 7200rpm Hitachi SATA II HDD

I had to use the command line to format the playback drives, F: and G: (as described in the XX online manual), otherwise they would not work.

Sound Quality:

My order of preference is:

1. playback drive G:
This really surprised me because this is just an old Hitachi drive I had lying around - nothing special about it at all. There is a sweetness to the sound that the others don't have. Instruments 'ring' and 'resonate' just as they do in real life.

2. music drive E:
Doesn't have quite the solidity or the sweetness of 1. A little 'harder' sounding. But otherwise very good.

3. W7/XX drive C: (copy to XX drive)
Very close in SQ to 2. Maybe a tad flatter.

4. playback drive F:
Another big surprise. Much flatter sounding than 1,2 and 3. Instruments/voices are no longer separated. It's one homogeneous wall of sound. Hard to follow the music and really 'get into it'.

I'm quite disappointed. I have loads of SSDs lying around and bought this one specifically for playback duties. I'm beginning to think that SSDs just don't have any role in high-end audio. So my advice to everyone is to get hold of a cheap HDD and give 'playback drive' a go.

Mani.

[juanpmar]

I had to use the command line to format the playback drives, F: and G: (as described in the XX online manual), otherwise they would not work.

Hey Mani, I´m going to format my drives to see if this way I can avoid the stops I have now playing with Allow Phase Alignment and SFS 2. Now I have my drives formated as NTFS but with blocksize of 4096 bytes. Peter recommends NTFS with 64 KB blocksize.

I don´t understand the way explained in the manual, so far I formated the drives with a right click in the drive => Format and there I can choose the file system and the blocksize. Is it not valid this way to format the drive?.

Do I have to format all the drives, I mean the one with the OS and XX plus the ones with music, or just the ones with the music files?

Best regards, Juan

[PeterSt]

I don´t understand the way explained in the manual, so far I formated the drives with a right click in the drive => Format and there I can choose the file system and the blocksize. Is it not valid this way to format the drive?.

Yea, but I don't understand what problem you are trying to describe. Unless you meant "can not choose" (see bold text in quote).
I don't know myself whether you can denote the block size by means of the way you described;
I always go to Rightclick on Computer (in Explorer), Manage, and then Storage - Disk Management.
In there you can do all (you can destroy all as well ).

Regards,
Peter


PS: I added a section "Blocksize" to that piece of manual.

[juanpmar]

I don´t understand the way explained in the manual, so far I formated the drives with a right click in the drive => Format and there I can choose the file system and the blocksize. Is it not valid this way to format the drive?.

Yea, but I don't understand what problem you are trying to describe. Unless you meant "can not choose" (see bold text in quote).

What I don´t understand is the way to format the disk as it is explained in How to let XXHighEnd format a Volume (more advanced) http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2086.0

What I said is that I always format the drives the way I have described in the post. As in this way to format doesn´t appear those Hidden Folders I wasn´t sure if I was formatting the drive correctly.

What I also wanted to know is if I must format with NTFS 64Kb blocksize also the drive where the OS and XX are (now it is NTFS 4096 bytes). Of course in this case I´ll have to make a new installation of both, the OS and XX.

Regards,
Juan

[PeterSt]

Juan,

What I also wanted to know is if I must format with NTFS 64Kb blocksize also the drive where the OS and XX are.

No. But didn't you read that (new) section ? Edit : So the answer is NO.

NOTICE that this is all totally unrelated to how the Playback Drive is formatted. So, the formatting you might apply to that as the solution to it containing hidden files with no rights to is, is only to make it accessible by XXHighEnd. So no worries there.


Lastly keep in mind :
It is you and only you who wants the glitchless playback outside the usage of the Playback Drive. This is all right of course, but personally I wouldn't bother and certainly would not be obsessed about it. And honestly, most probably I too may get "glitches" when not using the Playback Drive. So, I do for maybe half a year now, and this was before Phase Alignment was developed. I never even tried without Playback Drive.
So, there may be something in it that when you have all right (glitchless - and one sample missing is not that), that SQ might improve. But to reformat all my music disks and all the copying an stuff ? not for me (easy to say while I already have that OK  ).


You should concentrate on the "plops" at Start/Stop ! And that is totally unrelated to the glitches you receive without Playback Drive. That is buffer size stuff in combination with the SFS.

Kind regards,
Peter

[manisandher]

Hi Juan, I think you should try to format the playback drive in the way you describe first. And then try it. It may work fine.

If it hasn't been formatted the way XX wants, you'll just get an error. In this case, you will have to use the command line and input format E: /fs:exFAT /q (taking E: as an example drive). BUT... I found that I had to run the command line in Administrator mode. To do this, I did a search for 'cmd.exe' in the Start menu and then created a shortcut for it on the desktop. I think went into Properties for the shortcut and set 'run as Administrator'. The format then seemed to work fine.

I have no idea what block size is created when you format from the command line but the drive definitely works OK as a playback drive.

Peter may have his own views, but quite honestly, I wouldn't go to the bother of reformatting the OS/XX drive just for a bigger block size if using playback drive solves any playback problems you currently have. If it doesn't, then maybe consider it.

HTH.

[PeterSt]

One more thing :

You said you also hear ticks at changing the volume. Now careful :

These fairly small ticks are a bug in the program IF you hear them later than the volume changes. Actually they happen on SFS boundaries. So, that is unavoidable. BUT :
When you hear them at Start and Stop, it is logic (to me) that you hear them at the exact volume change point as well. So in that case you will hear two anomalies : one time at exact volume change which will be a somewhat louder plop, and after that (can be 10 seconds or more later easily) a less loud more "tick".

Peter

[manisandher]

Peter, is there any theoretical reason that a faster playback drive (e.g. 10K SATA III vs. 7.2K SATA II) should sound better?

My super fast new SSD sounds bad, and my old Hitachi HDD very good and I just wondered whether I should think about getting a faster HDD for playback drive duties.

Mani.

[AlainGr]

Hi Peter,

Just plain curiosity, since I will not do it now, but is it possible to create 2 partitions on a drive and format one of them with XXHE ?

[PeterSt]

To install XXHE in ? Why not ...

[PeterSt]

PS: But supposed that partition is dedicated for XXHighEnd, give it the smallest blocksize possible and DO NOT use Copy to XX Drive. Instead now use that Intermediate Files folder which should be on a large block size volume *and* use the Playback Drive.
(maybe I never tested this combination, and I hope it works).

Can it get more complicated ? probably.
Haha

Peter

[juanpmar]

What I also wanted to know is if I must format with NTFS 64Kb blocksize also the drive where the OS and XX are.

No. But didn't you read that (new) section ? Edit : So the answer is NO.

No, I haven´t read it although I´ve tried, that´s because I can´t find it. Where is that Blocksize section?

Juan,

What I also wanted to know is if I must format with NTFS 64Kb blocksize also the drive where the OS and XX are.

Lastly keep in mind :
It is you and only you who wants the glitchless playback outside the usage of the Playback Drive. This is all right of course, but personally I wouldn't bother and certainly would not be obsessed about it. And honestly, most probably I too may get "glitches" when not using the Playback Drive. So, I do for maybe half a year now, and this was before Phase Alignment was developed. I never even tried without Playback Drive.

If I had known that a few days ago... Probably I haven´t understood you well before.

Thanks

Hi Juan, I think you should try to format the playback drive in the way you describe first. And then try it. It may work fine.

If it hasn't been formatted the way XX wants, you'll just get an error. In this case, you will have to use the command line and input format E: /fs:exFAT /q (taking E: as an example drive). BUT... I found that I had to run the command line in Administrator mode. To do this, I did a search for 'cmd.exe' in the Start menu and then created a shortcut for it on the desktop. I think went into Properties for the shortcut and set 'run as Administrator'. The format then seemed to work fine.

I have no idea what block size is created when you format from the command line but the drive definitely works OK as a playback drive.

Peter may have his own views, but quite honestly, I wouldn't go to the bother of reformatting the OS/XX drive just for a bigger block size if using playback drive solves any playback problems you currently have. If it doesn't, then maybe consider it.
HTH.

Thank you Mani, I´m now coping all the tracks of my music drive to another drive and after that I will format it, my only 2Tb music drive. I already formatted the Playback Drive but until I finish the whole process I can´t test it, maybe tomorrow. What I don´t know is if the tracks that were originally in a drive with NTFS (4096 bytes), as they were in my music drive, and I return that tracks again to the drive once it is formatted as NTFS (64kb) if that is correct or not or if I should rip again all the music.

I formatted the Playback Drive the way I use to, but if it doesn´t work I´ll follow the way you mention.

I won´t touch the OS/XX drive, let´s see if with what I´m doing now all is ok.

Thank you again.

One more thing :

You said you also hear ticks at changing the volume. Now careful :

These fairly small ticks are a bug in the program IF you hear them later than the volume changes. Actually they happen on SFS boundaries. So, that is unavoidable. BUT :
When you hear them at Start and Stop, it is logic (to me) that you hear them at the exact volume change point as well. So in that case you will hear two anomalies : one time at exact volume change which will be a somewhat louder plop, and after that (can be 10 seconds or more later easily) a less loud more "tick".

Peter

I can´t test it now but if I remember well I heard the ticks after some seconds after I applied the volume change.
I will test everything again with and without the Playback Drive once I finish the process of formatting drives.

Regards,

Juan

[Nick]

Peter, is there any theoretical reason that a faster playback drive (e.g. 10K SATA III vs. 7.2K SATA II) should sound better?

My super fast new SSD sounds bad, and my old Hitachi HDD very good and I just wondered whether I should think about getting a faster HDD for playback drive duties.

Mani.

My mother board returned fixed on Monday so spurred on by Mani's very helpful test of playback drive types I set up a playback drive this lunch time. I have just stopped listening for dinner 

I will try other drives that I have, but a 5600rpm seagate barracuda SATA II which is quite a basic drive, is really giving a great performance. Certainly better than playback direct from the 2tb WD black 7500 rpm SATA III that my music OS and XX are on. The sound is superb but it the consistency of sound using this setup that is so nice. It dosent matter what i am playing the "sound" is so consistently good.

Best,

Nick.

[BertD]

This is fun...

No idea how my old little LaCie USB2.0 30GB HDD 3.600RPM compares to a normal external HDD but this tiny disc (USB powered) sounds wonderful!

I have a spare one too! 

It’s a similar HDD as used in the older iPods and not the flash drives commonly used these days.

It is not the fastest in the world so I should not load 3 CD's at once but fast enough for one CD.

At first I partitioned my OS disc to create a dedicated partition as Playback Drive but that sounds flattish... worse than copy to XX (same drive!).

I will also test a normal older drive for use inside the PC and one externally to compare but not this evening...

...it’s time for some music first and relax.

Bert

[PeterSt]

Hi Juan,

A Guide to Glitchless Playback.

What I don´t know is if the tracks that were originally in a drive with NTFS (4096 bytes), as they were in my music drive, and I return that tracks again to the drive once it is formatted as NTFS (64kb) if that is correct or not or if I should rip again all the music.

Just copying sure will do.
Btw, ripping directly to a music disk is also a no-go for me. So, those blocks need also to be contiguous for max read speed, which they won't be much when you rip to the disk where you use it from. Copying does a better job at that. And never delete albums once they are there.
(this now goes into the ultimate performance details and I would not bother all *that* much about it)

Regards,
Peter

[boleary]

So I used a reformatted (NTFS 64kb) WD 5000H1Cs-00 drive that I purchase back in 2007. I think its 7200 rpm but I'm not certain--a quick google search didn't help answer that question. Anyway my first impression is that I need to spend  more time listening to really judge the merits of the playback drive versus the XX/OS/Music drive as described in my signature. With that said, my second impression is that the playback drive sounds similar to a SFS of 60 in Z7, whereas the XX/OS/Music drive sounds more like a SFS of 2 in Z7. So I think I don't like the playback drive as much as my current setup. This sound that I like has a freshness or presence that makes the music sound live--not as in a live recording but as in the artist is in my room as a real presence. Again though, I need to spend more time with this---20 minutes or so of AB-ing isn't enough.

[juanpmar]

After reading the Block Buster

One more thing :

You said you also hear ticks at changing the volume. Now careful :

These fairly small ticks are a bug in the program IF you hear them later than the volume changes. Actually they happen on SFS boundaries. So, that is unavoidable. BUT :
When you hear them at Start and Stop, it is logic (to me) that you hear them at the exact volume change point as well. So in that case you will hear two anomalies : one time at exact volume change which will be a somewhat louder plop, and after that (can be 10 seconds or more later easily) a less loud more "tick".

Peter

After I formatted my drives, the way it is explained in the Block Buster section of A Guide to Glitchless Playback, (thanks Peter), and using all the time the PlaybackDrive and Allow Phase Alig. On/ Phase Intensity=1/IPhase On/(+), I´m listening again music. I´m still hearing the ticks in the following situations:

- At the start of the album,only before the first track, quite big tick/ticks.

- When I change volume with Alt+U or Alt+D after a few seconds, smaller ticks than before.

- When I stops the music with Alt+S, I hear a small zump.

Regards,
Juan

[PeterSt]

Juan,

- At the start of the album,only before the first track, quite big tick/ticks.

This is something else again. I mean, I know of this phenomenon and don't know where it is coming from (one PC has it, the other does not (my own exhibited this exactly never). If you have Garbage Collection On, you may try it with Off.

- When I stops the music with Alt+S, I hear a small zump.

If you listen carefully you will hear a repeat of the last buffer played. Increase your Q1Factor to 15 on so and that will be the most clear now.

So, all normal as far as normal can be at this moment.

Regards,
Peter

[boleary]

Hi Juan, I found that changing the NOS device buffer to 8ms helped control the ticks and plops in my system.

[juanpmar]

Thanks Peter, I had the Garbage Collection Off but with it On the ticks are a little less louder.

Thanks boleary, yes you are right with higher NOS Device buffer size I have less ticks but I like the sound with 2ms and I want to investigate further to see if I can avoid those ticks

Regards, Juan

PS. I´ve seen while writing this post that the new drivers for the dongles are ready. Too much work, but welcome anyway   

[PeterSt]

Btw, the situation I am talking about is a nice "crack" maybe 10 seconds into the track. Actually after pressing Play (Unattended and Attended). But I think this amount of time is SFS related. Otherwise it can be "net buffer size" related. Now, since you have this, maybe you can find out what makes it happen sooner or later into the (first) track (playing).

Thanks,
Peter

[PeterSt]

Also : someone/something else brought me the idea that it is "drive cache" related. So, in my case this is about a drive which can be ejected (like an USB stick or drive) but which (in my case !) just can be done like that because no write cache is enabled. I think this can be set for all disks, so also fixed. If you are able to change the setting for this, you might perceive a difference from there …

This is about the setting which says something like "less save" if the write cache is enabled. But no matter what, for us (outside ripping) this can always be enabled (so, be less safe). But whether the default is enabled or disabled I don't know. And think like this :

1.
When the write cache is enabled, the OS will write at some stage anyway (notice we talk about the Playback Drive !) and it just can be inconvenient for audio, while such writing will have priority over everything.

2.
When it is not enabled, there will still be some lag at writing (which we have just done to that PP drive !) and the "force" will even be greater to do it. So, even more hammering on audio.

So for both is something so say, were it about *creating* stalls in the stream. And, it will be related to the size of the Playlist as well but in a dangerous fashion. Something like : the more the album nicely fitted in (remaining) memory, the more a large burst of physically writing it to disk (PPD) will happen. The less it fits, the more smaller chunks will be written but merely : already will have been written before playback starts.

All I want to say is : when you find out what causes or eliminates what, I can make the solution for it.

Haha
But thanks.
Peter

[juanpmar]

I have the "crack" after I hit Play at the moment the first track starts to sound, once the image has disappeared from the monitor. However no more zumbs when I stop the music (maybe the Garbage Collection On fixed it up).

Sorry if I asked before but what´s "net buffer size", the Device Buffer Size or the USB Buffer Size in the Phasure NOS Control Panel?.
With the Device Buffer Size at e.g. 50ms the crack at the start is much less pronounced.


About your latter post: "Also: someone/something..." I´d like to add something also but I can´t, better I´ll wait to someone else find out what causes or eliminates what, so you can make the solution for it and let me know. 

Regards,
Juan

[PeterSt]

With the Device Buffer Size at e.g. 50ms the crack at the start is much less pronounced.

I don't think any "50ms" of Device Buffer Size exists. Unless you calculated it regarding the set sample rate etc. But it tells me nothing …
But whatever it tells you, try to eliminate it from there and then let me know what you mean. It could be helpful. Haha.

Net Buffer Size : DevBufSize x Q1 X Q1Factor.
This was the last time ! 

Regards,
Peter

[juanpmar]

With the Device Buffer Size at e.g. 50ms the crack at the start is much less pronounced.

I don't think any "50ms" of Device Buffer Size exists.

Sorry, I wanted to say SFS: 50ms

Btw, I deactivated the Playback Drive cache and the cracks are still there, much longer time also to write the playlist.

I´ll try other combinations of Q1 x Q1 Factor e.g. 7 x 2

Regards, Juan

[PeterSt]

I´ll try other combinations of Q1 x Q1 Factor e.g. 7 x 2

That really will be the same as 1x14.

Sorry, I wanted to say SFS: 50ms

Just "50". Or otherwise 50MB, but in the end this is not correct. So, 50.

Alll right. What about playing plain WAVs ? Does that matter ?

And what about the same situation but now without Playback Drive ? (never mind the other ticks now; so it is *only* about what we started to call a "crack" (and I think it is compared to ticks or plops).

Thanks,
Peter

[juanpmar]

I´ll try other combinations of Q1 x Q1 Factor e.g. 7 x 2

Alll right. What about playing plain WAVs ? Does that matter ?

And what about the same situation but now without Playback Drive ? (never mind the other ticks now; so it is *only* about what we started to call a "crack" (and I think it is compared to ticks or plops).

Thanks,
Peter

I use WAV files most of the time, makes no difference on regards to the crack (ticks or plops or whatever we want to call that noise)

I saw in the Device Manager that I need the Realtek driver for some "unknown" device. I updated the drivers and it seems that now the crack is less pronounced, in fact a couple of times there wasn´t any crack at all at the start of the first track.

And what about the same situation but now without Playback Drive ? (never mind the other ticks now; so it is *only* about what we started to call a "crack" (and I think it is compared to ticks or plops).

Well, I was playing all the time without Playback Drive and had that problems with the cracks but also the music stopped after 4 or 5 minutes. With the Playback Drive I can avoid the stops but not the cracks.

It has been tiring, for you and for the other people who are reading this, sorry. I´m going to try other settings and if I can´t solve it or find that the sound is not good I´ll be back to see if we can find a solution.

Regards, Juan

[PeterSt]

If you didn't do that already, what about updating all the MoBo drivers ?

(ticks or plops or whatever we want to call that noise)

Don't do that. That is, not if you want me to help you (and others). A tick is a tick, a plop is a plop and a crack is a crack. And since we are focusing on what happens at the start of a track *IF* it is the same what I can incur for (but not on my own audio PC) it should be a fast repeating exhibit of what I otherwise call a plop (which is a one-time happening in the lower regions). A plop becomes a crack because of the fairly high frequency of that otherwise one plop and with a duration of maybe 0.3 seconds.

If you can't recognize this as a crack like I just described, it is no crack and also not the same as what I am talking about. And mind you, maybe it isn't because what I talk about happens after maybe 10 seconds into the track. So say it happens at the start of the track (as a first thing to hear).
Focus on the phenomenon in order and don't mix up with other things.

And Juan, we have the same software and the same DAC. Your efforts on the hdd's seem sufficient to me by now, or IOW that's not it. That's why I now refer to the MoBo drivers as a "logical" further possible cause.

There's one other thing which may help you thinking it out :
When the stream stalls, playback will stop. You recognize that from playing without the Playback drive. When you hear plops or ticks but music continues, it is something which is more deep down, and towards the program the stream just plays. This (neither) is NOT what you experience with the Playback Drive. So, all good. Now, I would say that when this (plop ?) happens at the start or stop, something gets lost in the (first) buffer. And in the last too. So, there the stream is interrupted the same way (virtually) but I can't detect it because it is the start and stop. This could also mean that reinstalling the Phasure driver can help. BUT if you reinstalled MoBo drivers, always reinstall the Phasure driver after that again.

And not to forget : don't mind the ticks at volume change, because that is my bad.

Ok ?
And take it easy !
Peter

[juanpmar]

Thanks Peter,

I haven´t updated the mb drivers yet. In fact I've never done the update because of the potential hazards and the possibility of damaging the mb. If someone knows how to do it without danger please let me know.
On the other hand, I don´t even remember now how to install the Phasure drivers, I´m getting old (that´s a fact)...ok, if I have to do it I´ll do it, but first I have to investigate about the mb drivers, as I say any help on this regard is welcome.
My mb is an Asus X58 Sabertooth. http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_Socket_1366/SABERTOOTH_X58/#overview


Ok, now let me summarize about the cracks, ticks and plops. 

With Playback Drive:

- Crack at start of the sound, a few seconds after I hit play. Only one time, I mean when the first track starts not in the following tracks.

- Ticks at the moment I change up or down the volume. (Ok, no worries about it).

- No more plops at the end

- No stalls (stops). The music flows until the end of the Play lists.

- No other ticks in any place while music is playing.


Without Playback Drive:

Exactly the same as with the Playback Drive but also the music stalls (stops). Sometimes a few seconds after the start, sometimes after a few minutes (4 minutes or so).


I´d like to add something about the SQ now that I´m changing between Playback Driver and playing directly from the Music drive. Sometimes I have the feeling that the sound is better without Playback Drive. Also, at low volume level the sound seems to be more subtle and detailed.
Well, once in a while I need to enjoy the sound, not all is about cracks, ticks and plops. 

Best regards,
Juan

[PeterSt]

N.b.:

Sometimes I have the feeling that the sound is better without Playback Drive.

Nothing tells that this should or should not be the case. But when time permits, try another hdd or medium. It should be about consistency - preferably with the better SQ.


Okayyy. So you managed to have it the same as I have (remember, I never tried without Playback Drive). That is, when you now suddenly "admit" that the crack is a few seconds into the first track. GOOD. Thus now you are in the stage where I am myself, and all it now needs is finding the cause of that crack. I think I can do that, but first I must setup a PC where it happens again. So give me a couple of weeks for that please.

And Juan, do you have a clue how you got rid of the plops at stopping ? it may be valuable to others (and to me, because apparently I am doing something unconsciously that I never have the problem (at stop)).

I´m getting old (that´s a fact)...ok, if I have to do it I´ll do it, but first I have to investigate about the mb drivers, as I say any help on this regard is welcome.

Hopefully we all will be old. But maybe I noticed a little desperation in your voice or otherwise some loss of self-confidence. Don't. But don't be obsessed and don't want things "right away". Ok ?
I don't have an advice about your MoBo's drivers, and I would be reluctant about it as you are. Just take care that you make an image (copy) of the current firmware/BIOS and find (Google) some nice outlay on how to do it. And keep in mind : it may not help. So again, if you can live with the cracks for a while, I think I will find what causes it, at least on my side. And please notice : these cracks could be something I would NOT like to live with, because they are fairly loud and always come unexpected.

One other thing for a solution :
I am 100% sure I can solve it in the software, if it is only a thing that happens within X seconds from the start of playback and is caused by something internal. Like I said, these *are* stalls in the stream (many in a row) but I (the software) can't see that. So possibly within 10 days or so I have the solution in software ?
Notice that I already thought about this earlier, thinking that if a PC here can incur for it, with others it can happen too (and I really couldn't see how to solve it by means off settings).

So far for now !
Peter

[juanpmar]

Thus now you are in the stage where I am myself, and all it now needs is finding the cause of that crack. I think I can do that, but first I must setup a PC where it happens again. So give me a couple of weeks for that please.

Sure!, I´ll wait the time you need to solve it, I rather to wait than to start installing mb drivers without knowing if that is going to fix it up. Besides, the sound is great if I forget the crack.

And Juan, do you have a clue how you got rid of the plops at stopping ? it may be valuable to others (and to me, because apparently I am doing something unconsciously that I never have the problem (at stop)).

Sorry but no, I have not the clue about the plops. It was not too loud and it wasn´t happening ALL the times when I used Alt+S. What I did lately was to install the Realtek driver that the Device Manager said it was uninstalled and to enable something called X.M.P. (eXtreme Memory Profile) in the Bios, that optimizes the memory frequency (before 1066Mhz, now 1600Mhz), I have no idea if it has anything to do with it. Before at some moment I set up the bios with the default settings. So at the end I´m not sure what could have fixed the plops and not sure either if that it is not going to happen again. If I get more information in the next days about the cracks or plops I´ll let you know.

Hey, thanks for your words of encouragement.

Best regards,
Juan

[PeterSt]

Interesting about that memory. This makes me think it happened here when I overclocked a little. I really must try that again …

Thanks !
Peter

[juanpmar]

[from "Playback Drive (for advanced PC usage !)]:

"The Playback drive is to be considered as a general playback source to which all goes - and ends up in the very same way.
BUT :
It will still be your Playback Drive itself which determines the sound."


As has been stated by some other ones here, the use of one or another medium as Playback Drive changes the sound, some of us use an old Sata II or a Sata III hdd (7.200rpm, 5.600rpm or 3.600rpm), USB flash drives or SSDs, etc. What makes me think that this is an important issue is the fact that it leaves out of control a very influential part of the sound system. On the other hand, what could we do?. The only solution I can imagine is to try different mediums as Playback Drive and put here our findings. We shouldn´t underestimate the importance of this feature, as Mani said. So, I urge to you all to share your experiences.

This is mine:

I used, so far, four Playback Drive mediums, all of them connected to an USB 3.0 motherboard port through an USB 3.0 powered hub:

- USB 3.0 flash drive: not bad SQ but the sound is in the cool side. I wouldn´t recommend it

- USB3 external hdd, usb powered. Better SQ than the usb flash drive, clear sound, but also a little in the cool side. Can be a good choice. Maybe if this hdd would be external powered the sound would be other...

- Internal WD Green, 5.200rpm. The sound seems darker than the other ones. I don´t like it.

- External powered USB2.0 hdd, 7.200rpm, buffer 8Mb (Seagate/LaCie Porsche). The best sound so far, very clear and big sound stage a little on the warm side.

Juan

 

[PeterSt]

Hi Juan - Thanks and great idea.

At this moment I myself have nothing much to contribute, but this is because I "want" to approach this differently. And well, it is a complex thing ...

The last couple of days I am listening to my own "XXHighEnd PC" now, and this is known to produce better bass and more snap. Yes, I said "more snap" - not immediately "better". But this is the dangerous thing ...
Example, The Beatles with their ever changing sound from XXHighEnd - and even NOS1 versions ... too profound highs. This is with an internal 7200 SATAIII 64MB cache Playback Drive. And I refuse to think this is wrong ...

And so tonight I solved the problem completely (shiver) by going back to the good old SFS of 430. Btw, Q1 = 14, Q1F = 10 (DevBufSize stays at 4096). Possibly this creates a somewhat less "metal" on the cymbals for non-Beatles tracks, but maybe that was too much in the first place (well, that is what I am trying to put in my brains now ).

Ehm, tweak forever ?

Regards and thanks,
Peter

[boleary]

Sometimes it's a bit frustrating being a "button pusher" and having no understanding why one "button" sounds better than another, especially around this forum with all of you nerdy brainiacs! Please, don't take offense; I'm in awe and jealous of your collective knowledge on the subjects of electronics and audio. Thankfully, though,  the sensation of sound is just that; it doesn't require any special knowledge. So with that said I categorically state the following:

In my system, the sound of music ripped directly to the OS drive (3tb, 7200 rpm, UEFI interface, true SATA III cable) is better than everything I've tried as a playback drive. That includes creating a true 5 gig "playback drive partition" on the 3tb drive, as well as a standard 64 kb blocksize partition created to backup the "C" drive music folder when I recently reinstalled the OS. I copied/pasted (15 to 20 gigs at a time--this took an entire day) all the music onto the partition. Thankfully, that reinstall did not result in the loss of my music so the backup wasn't necessary. Other devices I've tried as playback drives were a 500 gig WD 7200 rpm drive and a seagate 1.5 tb drive. Both formatted with XXHighend. Everything I've tried, including the standard backup partition sounds dull or flat compared to music ripped directly to the "C" drive. Because earlier in this thread, Nick, who has the same MB as I, reported that his playback drive sounds better than music ripped directly to his OS drive (no UEFI-SATA III interface), I can only conclude that the UEFI interface has something to do with the incredibly rich, smooth and lifelike sound in my room. Interestingly, the difference between my preferred set up and everything else is very similar to the difference between PA engaged and not engaged--the music just comes alive like never before.

So. I really hope one of you crazies decides to see just how crazy  I am by duplicating my madness and reporting your findings.

A couple more things. The sound I'm getting seems so true that I am now able to notice differences in sound like never before--or I've gone completely batsh*t crazy! First, EAC rips are better than dbpoweramp. But, if you want that dull sound use dbPoweramp. Second, you may read that there is no difference between a true SATA III cable and a SATA II cable. Perhaps regarding speed that's true; regarding sound it's not--the SATA III cable, here on my system, makes a very big difference.

[CoenP]

Good read,

But what is an UEFI formatted SATA III drive?
Is that about the Bios being able to boot from a 3TB+ drive?

Regards, Coen

[boleary]

Yes

[stefanobilliani]

In my system, the sound of music ripped directly to the OS drive (3tb, 7200 rpm, UEFI interface, true SATA III cable) is better than everything I've tried as a playback drive.

As a try , after the fooling around about UEFI interface and boots , I managed to create a GUID partition table . I am putting in some music .
who knows ...

[juanpmar]

In my system, the sound of music ripped directly to the OS drive (3tb, 7200 rpm, UEFI interface, true SATA III cable) is better than everything I've tried as a playback drive.... you may read that there is no difference between a true SATA III cable and a SATA II cable. Perhaps regarding speed that's true; regarding sound it's not--the SATA III cable, here on my system, makes a very big difference.

Could you tell me please what´s the brand name/model of your 3tb 7200rpm drive and the SATA III cable?. A link to the products (Amazon or any other place) will be appreciated.

Best regards,
Juan

[boleary]

Here's the hard drive: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148907
My cable came with my Corsair AX650 PS, but you can get them anywhere: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812119473&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-NA-_-NA

The SATA 3 cables have a metal locking clip.

[juanpmar]

Here's the hard drive: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148907
My cable came with my Corsair AX650 PS, but you can get them anywhere: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812119473&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-_-pla-_-NA-_-NA

The SATA 3 cables have a metal locking clip.

Here in Spain I can only find the Seagate Barracuda ST3000DM001, I really don´t know what´s the difference with your STBD3000100 model, do you?

ST3000DM001: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148844

Thanks, Juan

[boleary]

Hi Juan, other than the ST3000DM001 being 50 dollars cheaper and warranty differences I don't know. My drive, STBD3000100,  has a 5 year manufacturers warranty if its made in Thailand, the Chinese version only has a one year warranty. Looks like the one you found only has a one year warranty.

[juanpmar]

Here in Spain that drive has 2 years warranty, maybe I´ll buy it to to see if your "madness" makes any sense. 

Best regards, Juan

[boleary]

Sounds good, but I can't guarantee results, especially with a different MB and processor. Sure hope it works for you!

[AlainGr]

Just a quick note. Please check the warranty... It used to be 3 years standard and 5 years for more expensive and durable drives... I see a lot that only carry 1 year now...

Alain

[stefanobilliani]

In my system, the sound of music ripped directly to the OS drive (3tb, 7200 rpm, UEFI interface, true SATA III cable) is better than everything I've tried as a playback drive.

Well , thanks to your suggestion Boleary ;

I have been able to install Windows 7 Sp1 ,with a GUID partition table UEFI interface to a 250Gig Sata disk .

What is interesting , is that the sound I hear is much better than before . Well that could be some other factors , but the disks are similar , and many other things are similar too .

I did not activate yet , because I need to make some choice for the future .Probably a new HDD;  the result is very very promising anyway . I like it .

stefano.

[boleary]

So glad to hear you've had a good experience! One of the things that I've noticed here is that anything other than a SFS of 2 doesn't sound right. 

[juanpmar]

I´m looking for the "perfect" hdd for Playback Drive. So far I´m looking for an external hdd because I want to test different connections.

These are the minimal specifications the hdd must have in my opinion:

- USB 3.0
- External power supply

There are other specifications I´d like to investigate, to see the influence on SQ, like:

- rpm speed
- the size of the cache
- other connections besides USB 3.0, like eSata.

On this regard I think that the Freecom Quattro could be a good candidate, mostly because it is a very silent drive and with eSata and USB 3.0 (besides FireWire). The problem, if it is a problem, is that it has only 8Mb cache size and that the speed is 5.200rpm. It is an expensive drive but the 1tb size is cheaper and enough for Playback Drive: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Freecom-2TB-Quattro-FireWire-External/dp/B004Z610M2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1347991616&sr=8-2

I´d like to know some opinion about what could be the importance of the cache size in the Playback Drive. About the rpm speed I´m almost sure from my experience with other hdds that it is not the main issue.

Juan

[juanpmar]

I wonder if anyone has tried a WD Caviar Black for Playback Drive?. It seems to be appropriate for it because it is quite fast: 7200 RPM, 64 MB cache, and SATA 6 Gb/s interface.

Among the defects that can be attributed to the WD Caviar Black is that it seems to be quite noisy.

Juan