Anyone needing support ? go to X-Fi

[PeterSt]

All,

We are off to the X-Fi show in Veldhoven (Netherlands). So, if anyone needs support, psychological help or maybe a little education ? go to room 110 there.

Otherwise, most probably no emails will be answered upon until next Monay. Forum support, probably the same ...

Peter & Bert

[Jud]

All,

We are off to the X-Fi show in Veldhoven (Netherlands). So, if anyone needs support, psychological help or maybe a little education ? go to room 110 there.

Otherwise, most probably no emails will be answered upon until next Monay. Forum support, probably the same ...

Peter & Bert

Hah, makes me want to plan to go to a hi-fi show as part of a European vacation, which would probably be a good way to get my wife to think of divorcing me.  :-)

Whenever you see this, Peter, if you care to reply, I'd be interested in knowing what your attitude is to the possibility of exhibiting at shows in the US.

[boleary]

Hope room 110 presents no significant acoustic challenges. Am sure you guys will blow 'em away!

[Scroobius]

Peter is that room 110 or room 101? maybe it really is room 101 as per George Orwell in 1984 ha ha. I guess some of our wives would think it was room 101.

"a torture chamber in the Ministry of Love in which the Party attempts to subject a prisoner to his or her own worst nightmare, fear or phobia"

[praphan]

Hi Peter and Bert,

Please post photos of your show in the forum.

Thanks,
Praphan

[CoenP]

Unfortunately I could not attend the show this weekend.
Anyone got a report for us?

regards, Coen

[PeterSt]

Me, listening to the first sounds well after midnight after the build up.

[manisandher]

Peter, the setup looks really great (apart from the old guy sitting in the middle). But what did it sound like? Were you happy with it? How did it compare to what you're used to at home?

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Here's the great principle applied; Most tend to name it "open baffle" but it is nothing like that. What happens only shows when you go behing the speaker and listen there; while in front of them the house shook down (we really could let vibrate the complete 500 room hotel - well, almost) behind them there's just no sound;

Nothing like an open baffle and no dipole "effect". No sound behind (relatively speaking) means no anomalies in any corner behind them. No standing waves anywhere.
Driver diaphragms moving freely incurring for as free sound. The horn accelerates the air on the front side and although we didn't measure, SPL will have been over 120dB at times easily. Still no matter how low the frequency, no anomalies in the room.

The only thing what could happen is the room being too short for the low frequency waves (the room was something like 14 meters long) those waves bouncing back and forth that really causing to shake the room litterally.
If you have subwoofers, be sure not to need them ever again.

Since this new principle of directive high pressure sound *is* new, I myself was surprised that while being in the room you were blasted away at stages, right outside the room, door open but not subject to the direct waves, you heard completely nothing of it. This contrary to our neighbours with a nasty PA system of which the (low frequency) sound went everywhere. Boom-boom-boom-boom.

What you see here is the mounting of the woofers (4x 15") which for every body seemed to connect to the baffle (obviously) while they really are not. So, the stand at the right side calibrates such that the woofers just "shine through" without ever touching the horn. Thus, no accelerated vibrations through the horn, which otherwise would happen.

I myself am addicted now to what this does for good sound and I am figuring out how to get those little babies into my own listening room.
And contrary what people would think as being obvious, in the small room this works without anomalies (standing waves) just the same. There is just nothing that incurs for distortion what a speaker of any (known) other type would do (pressured chamber or dipole stuff otherwise).

I am proud that I was part of the lead-in to this great theoretical concept of which at least I myself just *knew* it had to work. Of course it is Bert who stuck out his neck and had the guts to start working on this for so many hundreds of hours. Mind you guys, only two months back this was only a sketch on paper. It was already then when "we" decided we'd be on the show with this, in an attempt to blow away everything else heard before. For Bert it has been two months in a row of abnormal working days, including weekends. Those who heard it, I think, are privileged just to experience it. Still this was with all over new drivers not played-in other than maybe the hour we played with it before the show opened.

When we left last night after breaking all up, we left a cold empty room #110 and I said "good bye my cosy room !".
Yes, I want to be in there again. Play all my greatest tracks.
Must make an appointment for mental hospital ...

Thanks Bert. Great co-operation. I can only hope that at least half of it all came from my software and the NOS1. It should have, but with such an abnormal shift of all we know, how to tell ...

Peter

[PeterSt]

I had no time to make more than 4 photos during the show. But by sheer coincidence I now see that Gerard is on this photo (front middle). Leon next to him. That time I did not know Gerard was there.

[Gerard]

To be really honest

This was the most beautiful sound i have ever heard.

IMO the best system on the X-FI show.

 

[manisandher]

Excellent.

I'm saving my pennies for the speakers right now.

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Mani, and others ...

You can't go wrong with this. Maybe technically I don't have much to "guarantee" here, but I really like to.
Btw especially for you Mani - we played with "your version" of the amplifiers. Not yours (which in aftermath we maybe should have thinking about burning in (ours were new)) but the same.

And for those who like tube amps ... this is THE speaker for that, although they may not look like it. We virtually played with 2x 10W in this fairly large room (which was over 3 meters of height) and really could shake it down with this at sustaining the superb quality. Unheard ...

Peter

[stefanobilliani]

All my amps are max 15 watts class A 

[CoenP]

Thats a great setup! That's eight 15" woofers in one room? I only got two so I can imagine the effect .

The blue component in the middle looks like a mini nos or is the room really that big?!

Regards, Coen

[Gerard]

A few more. 

[anubisgrau]

Is the mid-hi horn again based on BMS 4592 coax driver like in Swings?

[PeterSt]

Yes.
So ... now I hear you saying : so that's not it.
haha

?

Do you still own your Swings ?

Regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

One more thing to add maybe :

I can't know how you proceeded with things, but you may talk from your experience with the Crazy-T. And that really couldn't work. So, FYI and only because you may not know it : this greatly works in coorporation with XXHighEnd which uses propriatary filtering and "upsaples" the 16/44.1 the Crazy-T did (in NOS fashion) to 24/705.6 (and yes, that uses the Phasure NOS1 DAC). So, the 16/44.1 is totally not-allowed and implies "squares" (and ugly ones) in the throat. This is why a horn sounds horny and is no good at all.

Quite another thing is what all the various means of XXHighEnd apply to not making sound a horn like a horn. These are easy tweaks I by coincidence showed yesterday to someone at the show. He didn't like horns, so I tweaked out the horn sound ...

Peter

PS: regards to G.....

[anubisgrau]

hi peter,

yes, i still own swings.

there was a moment when i want to sell them either to build my own horns (yes, yes, i know, not a good idea ) or just to get something more appropriate for a small room where i stuck them (22m2). i had a buyer but i changed my mind - too sentimental.

no, i have no problem with using BMS 4592, i think it's a good idea you and bert stick with a driver you know the best, especially such a good one. by the time you learnt many tricks how to get the best out of it.

i do have some personal reservations about a performance of the HF driver in such a big & long horn (coming merely from a theoretical side). from my experience with two different pair of swings i've had a chance to hear, i know this counts only in a smaller rooms. if you have plenty of space from the speakers to the listener, than it doesn't matter.

i'm curious about the way how oprhean horn goes "into" the bass waveguide (two vertical slots where the horn mouth part goes behind). wouldn't that disturb a radiation patter of the round horn, especially in the horizontal plane?

to be frank, i think it would be terrific idea to build a hybrid horn for 4592, with a tractrix throat, OS main profile and JMLC mouth. this would be a bit shorter than orphean and hence less prone to beaming in the HF. i built myself out of fun a pair of 2-way speakers with the OS waveguide (gedlee summa) and it's wonderful how it loads the room with a big and even soundstage without any sweet spot or other artifact of a too narrow directivity - much better than any kugelwellen, tractrix or JMLC horn i've heard before. i mentioned this to bert and he find it interesting....

i've never had crazy T. i was aware all the time that DAC has problems.... i actually preferred how mirko's old DAC sounded in comparison (twinDAC+). most of the time i listened to altmann attraction. but funny you mentioned that a different source can create an unpleasant horn sound, because that's what i occasionally experienced when i made experiments with different amps for swings. some increased honk so much that it really made me wonder how is possible an amp can cause a honk..... now i understand it.

regards will be passed on.... no worries:)

anyway BIG congratulations on great work both on DAC and these speakers. you have something to be really proud of:)

respect from belgrade

[PeterSt]

Hi again you other G. from Belgrade ...

I think you hit many nails on the head. The most important one ? this "Orphean" *is* shorter than the Orphean. So, it has been an explicit objective to align the Orphean (as an important base of which many would say "Orphean please !" with the big horn. And so it happened. Thus, what really happened is giving the output of the Orphean the same accelleration as the frequencies from the woofers ...
(without that, the both were "loose" from eachother - we tried as a shortcut).

Yes, the "round" shape of the Orphean base looks to be interfering with the remainder of the horn.  I've been thinkiering about a vertical dipole or something of that kind, but it would be very difficult to get that "phase correct". Just cut it ? perhaps. Anyway we have been talking about this but there was "some" lack of time ... Needs new molds and stuff.

if you have plenty of space from the speakers to the listener, than it doesn't matter.

Correct. More than.

Thanks for a great post with sense ...
Peter

[christoffe]

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/xfi2012/2.html

[pedal]

Hi Peter!

The new loudspeaker from Bert looks interesting. What is the total width and height of the basshorn (wings)?

Best regards
Petter

[PeterSt]

Hey Petter,

Width = 123cm. Height = 213cm.

Don't tell your wife that I think it will fit in your room ...
(putting them less than 50cm from the back wall shouldn't give any problems)

Bass will be a kind of infinitely more powerful than what you have now. And you alrealy have a very powerful bass ...

Best regards,
Peter

[Scroobius]

Now these are the speakers I have been looking for!!!! (but I did not know it ha ha). Very very nice.

I always wanted to build a system with high efficiency open baffle speakers but that would imply a very big room. There simply is not enough space in my room. So the search ended before it started.

What a really great idea for minimising rear travelling waves (if I get it right) - so simple and no one ever thought of it before.

All Kudos to you guys for coming up with this system between you (electronics and speakers). Looks like a match made in heaven. I just gotta hear it sometime.

P

[PeterSt]

I just gotta hear it sometime.

You shouldn't.  Unless you plan to buy them. Otherwise you will be in psychological problems ...

[manisandher]

You shouldn't.  Unless you plan to buy them.

I am. And I do.

Anyone looking for an as-new pair of Quad 2905 speakers at half the retail price???

Mani.

[Gerard]

I just gotta hear it sometime.

You shouldn't.  Unless you plan to buy them. Otherwise you will be in psychological problems ...

Peter is right

I did listen and a few day's where needed before i could enjoy my own speakers again.

Damm what a sound.

 

[Gerard]

You shouldn't.  Unless you plan to buy them.

I am. And I do.

Anyone looking for an as-new pair of Quad 2905 speakers at half the retail price???

Mani.

You lucky guy you you!   

 

[BertD]

Then better not come over to my place... I tweaked them a bit more to suit my room conditions plus some other tweaks not applied before (there was not enough time!) and changed the crossover settings for a better tonal balance.

BTW, no need for a big room at all. 

These are not the same speakers as you've heard them at the show... 

Bert

[manisandher]

Bert, how close to the walls can you place the Waves? Peter mentioned 50cm for the rear wall. What are your thoughts (rear and side)?

Mani.

[Gerard]

Then better not come over to my place... I tweaked them a bit more to suit my room conditions plus some other tweaks not applied before (there was not enough time!) and changed the crossover settings for a better tonal balance.

BTW, no need for a big room at all. 

These are not the same speakers as you've heard them at the show... 

Bert

Well maybe i will ( If you have the time) Really really wanted to take a good listen.

The size really 

Thanx 

[Scroobius]

Hey Bert - Now I know what the title of this post is really about "Anyone Needing Support" well lets face it most of us here do (my wife tells me I do!!!) of the psychological kind.

Just maybe it is time for an "away day" to Holland (again). I can just imagine the conversation now:

Better half - "Darling where are you going?"
Me - "Holland my dearest one"
Better half - "Why are you going to Holland?"
Me - "To listen to a pair of speakers"
Better half - **stunned silence **

It may take some working on but I think I could swing it.

How about it Mani?

P

[Gerard]

Hey Bert - Now I know what the title of this post is really about "Anyone Needing Support" well lets face it most of us here do (my wife tells me I do!!!) of the psychological kind.

Just maybe it is time for an "away day" to Holland (again). I can just imagine the conversation now:

Better half - "Darling where are you going?"
Me - "Holland my dearest one"
Better half - "Why are you going to Holland?"
Me - "To listen to a pair of speakers"
Better half - **stunned silence **

It may take some working on but I think I could swing it.

How about it Mani?

P

When she see the size she will never speak to you again! 

But than she will hear what comes out of these!

I say 50/50

 

[manisandher]

How about it Mani?

Paul, PM sent.

I've started the charm offensive on Satty already - but that's for buying Bert's Waves, not for visiting him. Quite frankly I think it'll be a losing battle until I actually have them installed and all up and running. I just know the second she hears them she'll be won over - especially if I play Massive Attack or something that she loves. But I've got to be 100% sure that the Waves are my speakers for life - there is no way she will ever allow me to buy another pair... ever.

Mani.

[BertD]

Bert, how close to the walls can you place the Waves? Peter mentioned 50cm for the rear wall. What are your thoughts (rear and side)?

Hi Mani,

Close to the rear walls is not an issue (there is no mid- and high frequencies at the rear like with your own speakers).

Minimal 30-50cm from the sidewalls is needed for the air to breath freely around the sides, that's all.

Cheers,

Bert

[PeterSt]

Better half - "Darling where are you going?"
Me - "Holland my dearest one"
Better half - "Why are you going to Holland?"
Me - "To listen to a pair of speakers"
Better half - **stunned silence **

Better half - "Darling where are you going?"
Me - "Holland my dearest one"
Better half - "Why are you going to Holland again?"
[thinking : "last time this went okay"]
Me - "Ah dunno. Mani is going so I'll join him again; what Mani does is always okay, don't you think?"
Better half - "yea, he's a nice guy. You aren't going to spend much money, do you ?"
Me - [thinking : oh sh*t]
"No, you know me; when that is going to happen I will always consult you, right?"
Better half -[thinking : the more money spent the larger the devices]
"You go ahead my dear; have fun"
Me - [thinking : djeezz, what can I do to let Mani buy them for me]

[BertD]

The size really 

Size is not an issue when you close your eyes... 

Besides that, the principle can be used with smaller sizes too (more or less compromising though) and depends on your musical preferences and playback level behaviour...

Bert

[manisandher]

I'm not sure I'm comfortable having my good name associated with a post titled 'suggestive talk'. Mind you, Satty refers to you all as my 'boy friends', so maybe it's apt.

Paul's a nice guy and I'd buy him a beer any time. A pair of Bert's Waves? He's got a lot of scrubbing up to do and I've got to start the lotto...

Mani.

[pedal]

So, we got the Height and the Width. Only thing missing before placing the advance orders is the Depth and the Price.... 

[BertD]

So, we got the Height and the Width. Only thing missing before placing the advance orders is the Depth and the Price.... 

Total depth including drivers support is 85cm (the horn itself is 54cm in depth).

Price depends on several aspects and personal requirements.

The Unlimited version can be yours for 28k ...

Cheers,

Bert