Valuable Resource

[Jud]

Regarding all the discussions about the sound of RedBook vs. Hi-Res: Have a look at DR (Dynamic Range) Database, which provides dynamic range numbers for tracks/albums through a Foobar plugin.  Look particularly at the recordings for a given artist in date order, to see what the Loudness Wars have done over the years.

For instance, Peter likes to point to Rolling Stones CDs as exemplars of good RedBook sound.  Here's a URL that should take you to a page with the Stones' recordings in date order:

http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=rolling+stones&sort=year&order=asc

Just look at the colors - should tell you all you need to know about the quality of the recordings.  Or here's R.E.M., even more dramatic if anything:

http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=R.E.M.&sort=year&order=asc

So no real puzzle about the sound of hi-res downloads - they're being sourced from the New! Improved! reissues the labels are doing, with all the compression the market supposedly demands these days.  Thus we are able to hear in pristine hi-res the squashed dynamics and consequent loss of detail and emotion in the reissues.

[JohanZ]

DR (Dynamic Range) Database, which provides dynamic range numbers for tracks/albums through a Foobar plugin.

Hi Peter,
Last week i found for the first time this Dynamic Range information on www. What do you think about adopting this DR-meter / functionality in XXHE?
Regards johan

[PeterSt]

Johan,

Just apply the Normalized Volume and look what the net volume is going to be. The lower the more the compresion ...

FYI: I use a Reference Album with a result of 4914 SPL; it is my experience that this SPL number gives the "fairly average" hence input and (Normalized) output volume are about the same for these "fairly average" compressed albums. In relation to these the better albums albums are 10-12 dB less compressed (on average !).

Judging like this is not always easy; for instance for classical it won't work much (too much variation). Drums only - same story.

I'm sure the above is tough to understand. It needs some experience ...

Peter

[Jud]

Peter -

You may be interested in the album with the second-widest dynamic range in the entire database:

http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?sort=dr&order=desc

[PeterSt]

You mean Tord Gustavson Jud ?
Haha, welll, I guess you knew that already from me, right ?

Not that I knew about this superb dynamic range, but most often that comes together with "good recordings" ... obviously.

But watch Charly Antolini who also is high-ranked. That's drums. And so I guess (besides I just talked about that) that it is difficult to capture the *real* DR.

Interesting to see is Crime of The Century. I *almost* mentioned it in my previous post as *the* example of something to count out. So notice please :
This album has a digital headroom of more than 6dB. So, totally wasted space and a poor (or fast) job of the engineer involved. The price ? it's, sadly, one of the most poor sounding albums I own - on CD that is !. This, while it is one of the best musically. Such a waste.
The other day I found a "vinyl rip" of it and finally I heard some power coming from it. Sadly it's chaos just the same which is how vinyl comes across these days. Notice that this is "NOS1" comparison which is not totally honest to others.

So guys, besides the poor Crime of The Century example, notice that Foobar's Dynamic Range can go sky high by a just one sample which maxes way above the average. It tells nothing. Well, sometimes it does not. Same with how to observe it through XXHighEnd although there the maxing out of one sample won't do much (it's just average SPL in there - still more reliable in my view, because with the experience it really tells something).
Btw, look at your Analysis.dat file in the album folder, once you apply the Normalized Volume. So, there you can see the digital headroom as well. Half of 32767 would be 6dB ...
But also : see 32767 in there and be sure the album has been compressed. Combine with the Average SPL and know it all ...

Regards and thanks Jud,
Peter

[Robert]

A very interesting site this one. After recently purchasing Supertramp on Blueray live and watching I was inspired to repurchase Crime of the Century. I'd only ever owned the vinyl which I sold years ago after giving up on vinyl.

I ended up downloading the MFSL version taken from the gold CD of Crime of the Century. It certainly sounds great and is the only remaster that is ok so far of this recording.

[Jud]

Though it's fun to see who's at the top (and bottom!) of the dynamic range numbers in the DR Database, and very generally I recognize some artists at the top end whose recordings have good reputations for sound quality (Tord Gustavsen, Rickie Lee Jones, the late Michael Hedges), I think comparisons among artists are subject to all the problems Peter has pointed out.

Where I think the database may be of more value is comparing between recordings/masterings of the same album.  There, the consistent march over the last 30 years (or more, since there is vinyl in the database also) to squeeze everything toward the top of the loudness scale is clear.

[PeterSt]

It looks like in 1994 something new has been invented ...

[JohanZ]

FYI: I use a Reference Album with a result of 4914 SPL

The reference album i use has a vaulue of something like 1000 SPL. Do I make a mistake somewhere? What is the title of your reference Album?

Isn't it possible to use in XXHE the sliding scale from 1 to 20 from the Dynamic Range Database? (http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/)  To make comparisons easier.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=88373

[Jud]

It looks like in 1994 something new has been invented ...

Danzig happened!    Hee hee, they apparently slot albums from lowest to highest DR range within each year when putting them in date order.  So there was good stuff (at least from the DR Database viewpoint) in 1994 as well:

http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?sort=year&order=asc&page=87

(Some surprises in there - Jack Bruce, Kool and the Gang, Burning Spear, Prince....)

[Jud]

Isn't it possible to use in XXHE the sliding scale from 1 to 20 from the Dynamic Range Database? (http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/)  To make comparisons easier.

This I believe is the same DR "meter" that has been configured for Foobar as a plugin:

http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/ja/ja/download#menu1

[PeterSt]

Isn't it possible to use in XXHE the sliding scale from 1 to 20 from the Dynamic Range Database? (http://www.dr.loudness-war.info/)  To make comparisons easier.

Johan,

Maybe this is not a bad idea. The data is all in there (also per track if you Normalize the albums per track) and all it takes is some "remapping".
In the mean time I would like to improve on it. So, right now it will work the same (or very similar otherwise) as DR does, but this is a kind of useless at times. So, when one drum hit in a track reaches the maximum value while the remainder of the album has peaks on half of the headroom as their max, this should not imply the 6dB extra which would come out in this case. So, the 6dB will be true all right, but it's only for this one drum hit. What to do with that. So, this should be counted out. It would imply few compression though, so that's a figure by itself.

Also, supposed there's a choir the whole track. That would imply a dynamic range of close to nothing if it's only singing at the same level all the time. And that can happen. So, a poor figure while there's nothing wrong with it ?
So this requires the "lowest dips" to be incorporated into the equation.

Peter

[PeterSt]

For those who read it already : I had two posts in here about Crime of The Century Analysis. But something was wrong in the data I used for that, so I have to re-do it ...

Peter

[PeterSt]

I am sorry to say it, but DR is completely worthless. Look below. I squeezed out all the dynamics in the track; only at -21.5dB (where only close 1/3 of the original Dynamic Range is left) the original figure of 16 dropped to 15. This, while the 16 already could not be true in the first place IMO.
(this is the original Crime of The Century track).

I can't tell where DR goes off, but generally the more *headroom* left (like it is here 2/3 of the total space) the better it reports. So, possibly the designer thought that this was key to a good recording hence good Dynamic Range, but it doesn't make any sense.

I know, I am more often the bringer of bad messages; this is another one.

Peter

[PeterSt]

And since I made this screenshot anyway yesterday, plus by now I listened to it :

This is the original (MFSL is exactly the same) at the left, and the 2002 remaster at the right. This remaster is not compressed at all - only limited at smart points (to the benefit of the remainder of the track). This one (finally) sounds good to me; the original just lacks resolution which is obvious at utilizing close to half of the digital headroom only.

DR reports 10 for this track. That's just wrong ...


PS: PeterSt judges a remaster as better than the original ? hey, that's news !