0.9z-8e Tick after start

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

The SQ is astounding with the low SFS, however I still get one fairly loud tick within a few seconds of playing the first track.

Best regards,

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Hey Arvind,

Wouldn't that be because you set the "After SFS Rounds" too low ? I think so.

Imagine 4-5 SFS rounds to be there per second at 24/705600. Now count the time until when the tick happens. 2 seconds ? then set the After SFS Rounds to 5 x 2 = 20 10 at least.

Does this help ?
Peter

[juanpmar]

Imagine 4-5 SFS rounds to be there per second at 24/705600. Now count the time until when the tick happens. 2 seconds ? then set the After SFS Rounds to 5 x 2 = 20 at least.

Does this help ?
Peter

5 x 2 = 20? Now I understand why the Netherlands economy goes better than here in Spain 

Cheers,
Juan

[PeterSt]

Hahahahahaha
Oh dear.

Over here we say a lot. But whether that's the truth is for the believers.

Thanks Juan. What a stupid mistake.
Peter

[Tore]

I get Tick after start with USB buffer size 4ms (After SFS Rounds=1)

No Tick with USB buffer size 8 and 16

I agree, the SQ is astounding now


Tore

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

With SFS round 1 the tick comes in a few secs. Increasing it to 7, the tick comes after approx 30 secs.

Best regards,

Arvind

[PeterSt]

Repeatable ?
And with SFS=2 ?
And with 32/706500 output ?

I'd say at least one of the above can't be true ...

Peter

[arvind]

Hi Peter,

I am not sure what you mean exactly by "repeatable" but every time I click on play there is a tick in the first track. Output is 32/706500 & SFS is 2.

Best regards,

Arvind

[Stanray]

I seem to have a tick also when pressing Play, but since I set the USB buffer size to 16ms its gone.

Not sure if this makes sense and if this is repeatable. Will test it tomorrow.

Stanley

[PeterSt]

Arvind, this might appear to be a difficult one. Why ? well, because you are somewhat on your own to find out what this is. But it is not XXHighEnd ...

After the time you indicated (where it happens) nothing special is going on anymore. No SFS engaging (if already has) no Wallpaper changing (it's already there including PA indication and all), no data being read other than what's happening all the time already (per SFS interval), no nothing.
But so many other things can be going on ...
(in your PC I mean)

I seem to have a tick also when pressing Play, but since I set the USB buffer size to 16ms its gone.

Something like this seems key. And let's keep in mind : that "After SFS Rounds" parameter is a backdoor solution to that "crack" while nobody ever could find so far what this stall (that's what it is) is about. What you have is similar, and I can tell you that with Windows 8 day before yesterday I also had a crack at ~ 3 minutes into the track, completely repeatable. So if I regard this similar to what you are encountering now ... I have no clue about my (W8) situation.
But with the Driver set to 16ms it doesn't seem to be there ...

By now it seems that more of these strangenesses can be "solved" by the Driver's latency. Maybe Stanley's report is the 2nd only, but including my own experience it should tell something. The WHY I don't know.

Hey, if we are not careful, only NOS1 users have such problems.

Peter

[Tore]

With USB buffer size 4 i get ticks, "After SFS Rounds" doesn`t help.
With USB buffer size 8 i have no ticks and i don`t use "After SFS Rounds"

And i think USB buffer size 8 gives me the best sound, better than 4 and 16 (SFS=2)


Tore

[PeterSt]

Hi Tore,

Can you please rephrase your post and be more specific ?
Of course, we can assume that you are talking in the context of this topic (ONE tick after the start somewhere), but it will be far too easy for others to read this in the context of "ticking" which WAS there and besides that ticking sure can still be there because I can incur for it myself.

If I make the below of it, would that be what you wanted to say ?

With USB buffer size 4 i get a tick, "After SFS Rounds" doesn`t help.
With USB buffer size 8 there is no tick and i don`t use "After SFS Rounds"

Also please let me know whether you have PA on, what your SFS is in this case and after how many seconds into the track the tick is there (when it is about ONE tick indeed  ).

Regards and thanks,
Peter

[Tore]

Peter, i have done some more tests.

Today, first time playing: Usb buffer size 4, After SFS Rounds = 0, gives no tick (strange)
Then i tried "After SFS Rounds" = 1 , that gives a tick (it is a crack) after 9 sec.
 "After SFS Rounds" = 2 gives a tick after 3 sec.

Then i tried Usb buffer size 4, After SFS Rounds = 0 again : tick after 24 sec.

SFS=2   PA - on


Tore

[PeterSt]

Tore, super thanks.

Can you tell me, is this repeatable each time ? I mean, the tick for which SFS Rounds was made was not much repeatable. There it happened at each new album or something like that (no clue really). But what you are telling about here, is that a matter of Play - Tick - Stop - Play - Tick etc. etc. ?
If yes, that would be quite convenient for me ...

Regards,
Perer

[Tore]

I have done more testing:

It is repeatable, i have checked a few album

USB buffer size 4,  After SFS Rounds = 0 gives a crack after around 5 sec.

USB buffer size 4, After SFS Rounds = 1 gives a crack after around 20 sec.

Tore

[PeterSt]

What happens to this when you change the SFS from 2 to 1.9 ?

[juanpmar]

And i think USB buffer size 8 gives me the best sound, better than 4 and 16 (SFS=2)

Tore

Really nice sound at 8ms. I´m going to stay with it for a while before I change to the other settings.

Thanks Tore.

Juan

[Tore]

Crack with SFS = 1,9 (USB buffer size 4)  :

With "After SFS Rounds" = 0 , crack after 5 sec.

With "After SFS Rounds" = 1 , crack after 20 sec.


Tore

[Tore]

Is it just me and Arvind that have this problem with USB buffer size 4?


Tore

[PeterSt]

And Tore ...

Q1 ?
Q1Factor ?
Device Buffer Size ?

(and you may change Q1 a little to see whether that makes a difference in the time when it occurs)

[Tore]

Q1=14
Q1Factor=1
Device Buffer Size=4096

Test with Q1=12 and "After SFS Rounds" = 0 - crack after 30 sec. (5 sec. with "After SFS Rounds" = 1)

Test with Q1=15 and "After SFS Rounds" = 0 - crack after 20 sec. (5 sec. with "After SFS Rounds" = 1)


Tore

[Tore]

I have just been playing through Diana Krall`s latest album Glad Rag Doll.
I have played with USB buffer size 4 and 8 and i prefer 4 now.
Everything is clearer or more in focus.

Peter, does the USB buffer size affect the SQ more now with 0.9z-8e ?

I hope you will find a solution to the crack problem.


Tore

[PeterSt]

Thank you for all you data Tore.

Well, this is all the most strange. I'd almost say : what about uninstalling the NOS1 driver and reinstalling it ?

Somehow this must be about something falling together and which point (in time) changes when the buffer size is changed (so, we notice that lengthening the buffer size makes that point earlier in time).

Since I have a PC which is prone to something like this just the same, it could be related to some chipset. However, this is merely about that "crack" which allows solution by the "SFS Rounds", which seems not to be your situation. But FWIW : on this PC it happens with both USB3 and USB2. So *if* it is about chipsets, it should be outside of USB.

Tore, Arvind too ... Are we actually talking about a problem which is new since 0.9z-8 ?

Can both of you watch the Wallpaper and see whether that changes at the moment of the crack ? Notice that (outside you changing the volume) this oficially (!) can only be about the change for the *~* indication, but I think it can also happen after that, in the situation that the *~* is already there right away. This can be called a bug (an unnecessary rewrite of the Wallpaper), but it may also cause the crack. So FYI here the possible situations :

1. *~* is there right away because After SFS Rounds = 0;
2. *~* shows up when the amount of SFS Rounds set have elapsed;
3. *~* is there right away despite After SFS Rounds was set to a value other than 0 (this will happen with small SFS sizes).
4. Bonus : A GDI+ error occurs because two "instances" of the program try to write the Wallpaper at the same time.

Let me add that writing the Wallpaper is a most awkward procedure in the Windows operating system; it requires a lot of cpu and has a high priority as well. This is why it is possible to perceive ticks of it anyway, and which people may remember from early Windows 7 times.
A bit problematic is the fact that it is not necessarily the visual change of the Wallpaper creating ticks; the tick can be earlier because the process concerned is already working on it, or it can be later because the OS likes to do a few things afterwards but with the Wallpaper change as the origin.

I say it once again and to keep in mind please : that crack for which the After SFS Rounds was created, is a backdoor solution to something I am not able to put my finger behind. And also : my normal Audio PC exactly never produces any crack anywhere.

Peter

[PeterSt]

Peter, does the USB buffer size affect the SQ more now with 0.9z-8e ?

It looks to be so, yes. But maybe that is because someone put the attention to it, and now everybody starts to experiment ?

My real answer is this :

At the start of 0.9z-8 I literally said : "All sounds sooooo normal". And this is key I think, because we seem to have entered a new dimension : the one of being able to compare with "not so normal". I always try to read in between the lines of how people judge, and suddenly it is about this phenomenon now. And I don't think this is because I said "soo normal". It will be because you now will be able to see through how things are. Like I explained about Get Yer Ya Ya's Out elsewhere. Don't you have (had) that sometimes ? that you suddenly "know" that you are listening to the real Mark Knopfler while you never spoke to the guy in person ?

So what will be happening now is that it doesn't take much to deviate from "normal" (which will be obvious to everyone) while before it was a mere subjective setting (whatever setting).

But anyway, I too now play with the NOS1 buffer as a key dial.
... and landed at 4, although this is Windows 8. Actually 2, but that isn't reliable (too critical to operate without errors, at least on Windows 8, plus it is hardware dependend (not everybody can use 2 in the first place)).

Regards,
Peter

[Tore]

No crack with USB2 

I`m sorry for all this questions.

Many thanks for all your writing and for the Fantastic SQ

You are a unique specimen


Tore

[PeterSt]

Well, now what.

Weren't you the one who just obtained that USB3 interface newly ? (I'm not sure). If so, then those drivers you found are not good ?

How's the relation with Arvind ? Same interface or chipset on it perhaps ? You both may like to mention your interface ...

Thanks for the kind words Tore.
Peter

[Tore]

I have this: BUFFALO IFC-PCIE4U3S USB 3.0 PCI Express Interface Card (4 Ports)

With this driver: http://drivers.softpedia.com/get/Other-DRIVERS-TOOLS/Renesas/Renesas-Electronics-uPD720201-uPD720202-USB-30-Driver-30200.shtml


Tore

[PeterSt]

So that was you.

Arvind ?

[arvind]

 Hi Peter,

My USB 3 interface is on the Gigabyte mobo X58UD3R. The single tick has been around since the introduction of PA. The duration when the tick occurs from the start of play varies with the SFS round. The higher the SFS round the longer it takes.

However yesterday I changed the driver latency to 8ms (from 4ms) & the tick has stopped. I havent been able to put it on for extensive period but in the 30 mins yesterday, I didnt hear a tick.

Best regards,

Arvind