Inverted absolute phase vs inverted absolute phase

[AlainGr]

Peter,

I know that topic is not recent, that's why I am creatind this as a "new" topic.

I do have a remote control for my pream. Since it is quite an old preamp, it is wired... There is an absolute invered phase button that I can press "on the fly", but... Well, I don't find it easy to determine if a song is in inverted phase or not. For sure it would be meaningful if I was starting this with "I can hear a difference"... But I am not sure, so I should assume that I don't.

My question is: can you determine with a quick analysis if a song starts in absolute inverted phase or in its contrary ?

I'll start with that, before asking other questions...

Thanks.

Alain

[PeterSt]

Hey Alain - No.

I can't because of not being sensitive enough to it.
But I also wonder whether it is the way to go to have this different per album or even track.

What I do know - and can hear - is when Inverted Absolute Phase is active. So, this is general and will count for all I play.

My advice : just make the connections right so all is fed to the speakers in Normal Absolute Phase and then switch it in XXHighEnd if you like that better. But not per track or something - just in general.

Peter

[AlainGr]

Ha... Did not check my title correctly... Is it like "Spy vs Spy"

Alain

[PeterSt]

Coffee vs coffee + brandy vs brandy
What does it matter. As long as you have both.

[AlainGr]

Coffee vs coffee + brandy vs brandy
What does it matter. As long as you have both.

Of course And I can see that alcool and caffeine are 2 examples coming very easily to your mind

I did try once to detect if I could "see" how a waveform was beginning with Audacity, but no, it did not seem possible... My attempt was to determine if a wave would begin "negatively" or
not...

Alain

[juanpmar]

Hi Alain,

Maybe this test can help you:

http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_polaritycheck.php

Regards,
Juan

[AlainGr]

Hi Alain,

Maybe this test can help you:

http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_polaritycheck.php

Regards,
Juan

Hi Juan,

I have done this test, but it was not conclusive for me... There is (or was) a website where the author talks extensively about this (he seems to be sensitive to inverted phase), but there does not seem to be a way to determine easily if a file is in inverted mode or not...

It is said that to train our ears to find landmarks can help determine the qualities of a recording or what to compare, but for this I haven't found an easy way other than listening...

Yet I know that in the same recording, some components could have been in inverted phase while some others would not... It does not make much sense, does it...

Regards,

Alain

[juanpmar]

Alain, probably you have read this article but just in case:

"Phase issues take on a far different magnitude in a recording situation, and can quickly become complicated. In most recording sessions, we’re dealing with multiple instruments and multiple microphones. As sound waves of different frequencies reach different microphones at different times, the potential for one microphone’s diaphragm to receive a positive phase while another receives a negative is greatly increased, and the relationship between all of these different waves’ phases can be somewhat unpredictable. In fact, the more mics in play, the more inevitable some sort of phase issues become".

This is the complete article: http://www.uaudio.com/blog/understanding-audio-phase/

Juan

[AlainGr]

Ah... I see that the link you provide is related to polarity between 2 channels, like say the red wire is connected to the "+" and the black to the "-", and on the other speakers the red is on the "-" and the black on the "+". This is the relative phase between channels...

Using the same example, I was seeking for a way to differenciate  all speakers connected with red wire "+" and black "-", as opposed to inverting that (red with "-" and black with "+")...

Alain

[PeterSt]

In the end Juan sure talks about your (psychological !) problem.

[AlainGr]

Alain, probably you have read this article but just in case:

"Phase issues take on a far different magnitude in a recording situation, and can quickly become complicated. In most recording sessions, we’re dealing with multiple instruments and multiple microphones. As sound waves of different frequencies reach different microphones at different times, the potential for one microphone’s diaphragm to receive a positive phase while another receives a negative is greatly increased, and the relationship between all of these different waves’ phases can be somewhat unpredictable. In fact, the more mics in play, the more inevitable some sort of phase issues become".

This is the complete article: http://www.uaudio.com/blog/understanding-audio-phase/

Juan

Oops, we wrote at about the same time

Yes, this is what I al looking for Thanks Juan

Alain

[AlainGr]

PETER !

 

[juanpmar]

Well, I guess that at the end the best method to determine the correct phase are our ears. With the correct phase the bass is firmer and well located in one place, the voices are also well defined and located.

Could be also that the "out of phase" are ourselves, but that´s other story...

Juan

[AlainGr]

Well, I guess that at the end the best method to determine the correct phase are our ears. With the correct phase the bass is firmer and well located in one place, the voices are also well defined and located.

Could be also that the "out of phase" are ourselves, but that´s other story...

Juan

Well, from what I see and hear in the news, we for sure are out of phase with so many things

Alain

[PeterSt]

I did try once to detect if I could "see" how a waveform was beginning with Audacity, but no, it did not seem possible... My attempt was to determine if a wave would begin "negatively" or
not...

This software is in XXHighEnd too. It can't work ...
(so, disabled).

Personally I think the story about microphones and such is rubbish. As if we tend to twist the polarity of an XRL cable which isn't even possible.

The reason why it can't be detected in software (well, the other day I said that maybe today I can do it after all) is that it is an electrical phenomenon in order. So, any electrical signal needs a "sweep up" before it's normal amplitude is achieved. And the first "maximum peak" can be downwards (negative) or upwards (positive) at random. This is for the detection.

But if you look at loudspeaker driver diaphragms exactly the same happens. They need a sweep-up before the amplitude to achieve is there. The forward excursion can be max first, but the backwards can be the first just the same.
Got that ? Believe it ?

Now think of the microphone. Same story.

But this STILL is about detection only;
Practice works different, because the absolute proper phase (where a blow is to be perceived as a blow and not as a suck) will be about the average positive amplitude of the wave concerned and that positive amplitude being reached faster for its average (so excluding sweep up) attack, than that its decay goes.

What I am trying to say is that this can only be about averages and never about the first (high(er)) impulse which latter is random to either direction.

Peter

[AlainGr]

Thanks Peter, I will try to forget that whim for a while... Maybe I was surprised to know that some people are sensitive to this, but there does not seem to be many expressing themselves about this on the net...

Maybe with the NOS1 it would be easier for me to really determine if that is my case or not... It will be either I am "not" sensitive to this or that I am "nuts"

Alain

[PeterSt]

Alain,

Your NOS1 is not packed yet. Easy to stop that process.
Let's just declare you nuts in advance. Is much cheaper !

Peter

[AlainGr]

I will still take my chances, but you know that it is because I always get up at 5 in the morning with a mantra "Mmmmm NOS1 Mmmmmm"

Time to go to work for me !

Alain

[Jack]

If you guys don't know the difference between sucking & blowing, ask your wife for a suck job!
Happy days
Jack

[juanpmar]

If you guys don't know the difference between sucking & blowing, ask your wife for a suck job!
Happy days
Jack

Offensive, stupid, or both at once?

Juan

[PeterSt]

Jack, as in Jack-off ?

Btw, where have you been ?
Your sig shows the wrong DAC by now !

haha
Peter


PS: Juan, he's from the UK. Has to be.

[PeterSt]

PS: Juan, he's from the UK. Has to be.

Btw Jack, it really needed some smiley here. I was only making fun and it was well meant. I hope that was understood.

Best regards, and really nice to "hear" something from you again.
Peter

[Jack]

Peter
Sorry if my humour was misplaced! I couldn't resist!
I look in regularly, just don't post, always interested.
It's been 2 years however, what is it with time?
I'll e you soon re changing to USB & catching up!
Offend me? Fat chance.
All the best to you & yours
Jack
PS Hi Bert (if I may)

[BertD]

PS Hi Bert (if I may)

You may... finally someone who does understand the difference between sucking and blowing!

Problem is that 90% or even more of the recordings are not acurate phased as those 90% of the recording technicians do not have a clue...

BTW, for me both directions are okay, whatever she prefers!   

Bert

PS, is the MINI still available to loose some stress?

[xp9433]

... Maybe I was surprised to know that some people are sensitive to this, but there does not seem to be many expressing themselves about this on the net...

Well I create a little controversy, and ask for XXHE users to challenge themselves to listen for the differences.

I am one of those unfortunate/fortunate people who is senstive to the SQ change from absolute phase being incorrect. And I can't understand how people can't hear it! Especially reviewers - if they can't hear it, they shouldn't be reviewing!

Peter it is not just cables that affect absolute phase. Each of the electronics in the recording chain can have varying (positive or negative) absolute phase output. The system configuration will determine the final absolute phase outcome.

Same with the playback chain. A record that sounds best on one system with positive absolute phase might sound best on another system with a negative absolute phase setting. (e.g. The difference could be the result of one amplifier having three gain stages while the amplifier in the other system has four gain stages). It is a system thing.

In a different life, 30 odd years ago, I was responsible for a preamp incorporating absolute phase switching. To my mind, nothing has changed in those 30 years, and yet many people who can hear the minutest changes from a small software upgrade  , still can't hear the differences that absolute phase makes - really doesn't compute with me.

Frank

[AlainGr]

... Maybe I was surprised to know that some people are sensitive to this, but there does not seem to be many expressing themselves about this on the net...

Well I create a little controversy, and ask for XXHE users to challenge themselves to listen for the differences.

I am one of those unfortunate/fortunate people who is senstive to the SQ change from absolute phase being incorrect. And I can't understand how people can't hear it! Especially reviewers - if they can't hear it, they shouldn't be reviewing!

Peter it is not just cables that affect absolute phase. Each of the electronics in the recording chain can have varying (positive or negative) absolute phase output. The system configuration will determine the final absolute phase outcome.

Same with the playback chain. A record that sounds best on one system with positive absolute phase might sound best on another system with a negative absolute phase setting. (e.g. The difference could be the result of one amplifier having three gain stages while the amplifier in the other system has four gain stages). It is a system thing.

In a different life, 30 odd years ago, I was responsible for a preamp incorporating absolute phase switching. To my mind, nothing has changed in those 30 years, and yet many people who can hear the minutest changes from a small software upgrade  , still can't hear the differences that absolute phase makes - really doesn't compute with me.

Frank

Hi Frank,

To tell the truth, I have done many things... That did not really make a difference in sound (for me of course), but as I often repeat, I had abused my ears quite a bit during my young adult years, listening to music loud enough to compete with a supersonic jet fighter... Nothing was about pre or post ringing... Ears were ringing way too often I am not surprised I don't discern differences that easily, but there are so many other factors to take in account: environment, quality and integration of components, the art of listening, knowledge...

Like you say, it could be fortunate (or not) to be able to identify such specific aspects of sound.

Well, this hobby is wonderful, but it can really "suck" you in - or "blow" you out I hope I understood the principle

Alain

 

[xp9433]

To tell the truth, I have done many things... That did not really make a difference in sound (for me of course), but as I often repeat, I had abused my ears quite a bit during my young adult years, listening to music loud enough to compete with a supersonic jet fighter... Nothing was about pre or post ringing... Ears were ringing way too often I am not surprised I don't discern differences that easily, but there are so many other factors to take in account: environment, quality and integration of components, the art of listening, knowledge...

Like you say, it could be fortunate (or not) to be able to identify such specific aspects of sound.

Well, this hobby is wonderful, but it can really "suck" you in - or "blow" you out I hope I understood the principle

The difficulty is that wrong Absolute Phase (AP) could be influencing your judgement of recordings or systems if you get it wrong. Perhaps a quick list of SQ differences. Incorrect absolute phase is called the "Muffling Distortion" or "Wood Effect".

Get AP right:
Cleaner more dynamic and natural sound. Greater separation of instruments and voices especially in the depth field. Main singer/performer will come more forward in the mix. Better deeper more detailed bass. Cleaner more detailed and "dynamic" high frequencies, especially cymbals. More natural/better harmonics on stringed instruements. Overall more dynamics and less disortion.

Get AP wrong:
Dynamics muffled but sound not necessarily easier on the ear, because of distorted higher frequecies, sibilance, splashy cymbals, etc.. Depth of field shortens and singer/s retreat into the mix. Less grip and drive in the bass. Irritating to listen to for longer periods.

Sit off centre and the sound will tend follow you to the nearest speaker.

Will continue at some later stage, because I am off to an appointment

[AlainGr]

The difficulty is that wrong Absolute Phase (AP) could be influencing your judgement of recordings or systems if you get it wrong. Perhaps a quick list of SQ differences. Incorrect absolute phase is called the "Muffling Distortion" or "Wood Effect".

Get AP right:
Cleaner more dynamic and natural sound. Greater separation of instruments and voices especially in the depth field. Main singer/performer will come more forward in the mix. Better deeper more detailed bass. Cleaner more detailed and "dynamic" high frequencies, especially cymbals. More natural/better harmonics on stringed instruements. Overall more dynamics and less disortion.

Get AP wrong:
Dynamics muffled but sound not necessarily easier on the ear, because of distorted higher frequecies, sibilance, splashy cymbals, etc.. Depth of field shortens and singer/s retreat into the mix. Less grip and drive in the bass. Irritating to listen to for longer periods.

Sit off centre and the sound will tend follow you to the nearest speaker.

Will continue at some later stage, because I am off to an appointment

I am taking notes and will try to see if I can differenciate these states through the mentioned characteristics.

Thanks from the cold Quebec

Alain

[BertD]

Nothing to do with music but more clear how sensitive people are to situations that are not natural.

Absolute phase is one, having the left and right channels exchanged (both still in the same phase...) is another one (even if you've never heard the recording before, still sounds different!) and to come back to my topic is when you exchange the left and right image... try it if you have something that shows 3D (shutter glasses or special 3D displays), your world will be upside down when you look at the wrong combination.

This clearly shows how the brain CAN'T be fooled if your reference is accurate. The same with audio...

Bert

[AlainGr]

It happened to me once... There was something wrong, but since I just changed every link in the sound system, I was hesitating. Lots of "new" sounds.

Then I checked the polarity of the speakers and realized that one had inverted connections...

I assumed it was me who unscrewed the red and black screws and did not put them back correctly...

Alain

[AlainGr]

Nothing to do with music but more clear how sensitive people are to situations that are not natural.

Absolute phase is one, having the left and right channels exchanged (both still in the same phase...) is another one (even if you've never heard the recording before, still sounds different!) and to come back to my topic is when you exchange the left and right image... try it if you have something that shows 3D (shutter glasses or special 3D displays), your world will be upside down when you look at the wrong combination.

This clearly shows how the brain CAN'T be fooled if your reference is accurate. The same with audio...

Bert

Hum... I have to admit that I have lost a few references since my girlfriend is in my life I tend to hesitate a lot more and ask myself questions that I never imagined I would ask one day

Alain