Power Cords

[christoffe]

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/shunyata_visit_interview.htm

[PeterSt]

I saw that one before, and back at the time I was impressed looking at the (better) curves and such. But, I only read the text around the plots to get clear what the plots meant.
Today I read it all.

It ends with this :

Look, if you’re willing to take the time to actually try it, if you try it and it works in your system, then great. Then, go and read what I have to say and go, "Wow, there’s a reasonable explanation."

And I am sorry, but No. To me it reads like BS because there is no explanation at all. This world seems to end at the rectifiers in a PSU, as if nothing is behind that;

I don't say that what's told in that "interview" is rubbish by itself. I also don't say that it won't help in all imaginable situations. But I do say that I don't see how it helps in all situations.
 

But doesn't the quote actually tell the same ?

Now, if someone can explain to me how it all works out through the buffering capacitors (like 80000uF in the NOS1 and something like 180mA of continuous draw) and what's left of the problem (current is not there fast enough) or how less noise from the mains let us hear "deeper into the music", then you'll have all my attention.

Before you attempt this, do notice that any random "fragile" device like a D/A converter the most easily shows 10mV of noise. When not "random" it may be 100-150uV and with real attention you'll see 1uV values or even less.
So, that is 1uV against 10mV (factor of 10000) and it is totally 100% unrelated to mains issues. Well, sort of.

I always have my nice example of that Pulse Width Modulated pump I have in the house, exhibiting 17KHz "noise" (a frequency is no noise), which shows up as something like 300mV. This is not the same story as "good powercords" but it sure is related to power conditioners (also in that "interview"). The point is : this is to be guided out by careful (in-device) ground design. This way, 300mV becomes 1uV.

The related moral ? No such thing as a fine power cord is going to help for anything if not first that "1uV level" is reached by other means, totally unrelated to the "interview". Unless we think that 10mV of noise is not devistating of course.
And still, once this has been achieved, I need to learn from someone how the not-so-fast current rises from a black cord (yep, the ones I use indeed ) is going to be harmful once buffering capacitors need to be passed (but, ready for the outlay of course).
Btw, I too could try to overdrive things by continuously drawing 160 Amps. But I am not sure my fuses will hold.

As usual ... 
Peter

[Robert]

Peter you did better than me, I got halfway through and thought BS. Still listening is helpful if you can, before parting with $.

In saying that I run Nordost power cords at what are insane prices, but I did hear an improvement probably not relevant to the perceived sound improvement value for money.

Yes I really do need to try the NOS1 which in my country is $5000NZ dollars quite a lot for us farmers. I'm only guessing at the sound improvement on this one but to me the design philosophy seems very sound. 

[PeterSt]

Yes I really do need to try the NOS1 which in my country is $5000NZ dollars quite a lot for us farmers.

But you can put the Nordost(s) to eBay !
haha
And your Preamp.
And ...

Ok, just trying to be funny.

> Nad Master Preamp(Using 7.1 inputs)

Why/How ?

[juanpmar]

About the power cords what I can say is, out of the technical issues and measures, that I can hear differences with different power cords although it is true that with the NOS1 the changes in SQ are less notorious. This is an old issue and my position now is to choose the cable I like more between the "normally priced" I still have, that´s it. The time when I spent an important amount of money on cables are gone forever, fortunately, and that´s due IMO because they seem to affect the sound less with the NOS1 and XXHighEnd than with other components I had.
Btw, I bought some years ago the Shunyata Anaconda power cord ($2.000) and I ended up selling it pretty soon because it was filtering the sound making it lifeless and anemic with a blurred bass.

Juan

[BertD]

Btw, I bought some years ago the Shunyata Anaconda power cord ($2.000) and I ended up selling it pretty soon because it was filtering the sound making it lifeless and anemic with a blurred bass.

I was using for a long time cables doing exactly that as I recently found out (not cheap either!). I am now using DIY power cords using Litze (independend isolated strands!) and wow!

Not just more alive, much cleaner with a LOT more details and a tighter bass but also a much better holographic stereo image. I can sit at the most left and still hear the image in the center!

Bigger changes for the better in my system than the latest XX updates...

Bert

[Jud]

Juan's post points out two things, one my thought, the other from the guys I'm always going on about, Mapleshade/Omega Mikro.

My thought: It is easy to hear differences between pieces of equipment, cables, etc. (though Peter says, and NOS1 owners appear to concur, that the NOS1 is intended to and does minimize such differences).  What must be guarded against is to hear every difference as an improvement, for that way lies madness - A>B>C>A and around we go.

From the Mapleshade/Omega Mikro guys: Particularly with expensive "overbuilt" power cables and filters, a common failing is that they filter everything so well, including the music, that they drain the life from it.

[juanpmar]

Bert - where can I find information on how to build the Litze cables?.

I remembered about Less-Loss cables as they use the independent isolated strands. There is in their site a short and didactic explanation from their point of view of the typical topics on regards power cords, like "Power lines run for hundreds of miles, so how could a six foot power cord make any difference?"http://www.lessloss.com/dfpc-series-p-213.html. Looking around also in their site I´ve found a curious device that they say it works to eliminate the ambient EM and the near field electromagnetic (EM) interaction to audio reproduction quality. If it works or not if far from my knowledge but the theory and the exposition is nice. This is the article:"Ambient field conditioning. A new approach"
http://www.lessloss.com/blackbody-p-200.html

Juan

[Flecko]

What does the last photo show (that one with the cables)? From the text I would say this should be the Black Mamba cables under construction. It seems to be a triax cable with an oversized tube around it. According to the text, the Mambas should have some "helix" structure. Can't see that in this picture.

My latest powercord related experience was with my new amplifier. There was something bothering me about the sound and I couldn't figure out what. Than I removed the "high end" multiple sockel outlet and pluged the cable directly into the wall outlet. That was the sollution!

[BertD]

Bert - where can I find information on how to build the Litze cables?.

There isn't any information but the technique used is similar to the cable shown through the link you've provided. Both that and the Litze made the difference here in my system.

I am going to exchange ALL power cords for these ones.

Bert

[PeterSt]

I am now using DIY power cords using Litze (independend isolated strands!) and wow!

Doh ! I read this yesterday and thought "oh well". But I now read it again, and I suddenly realized that I have been doing exactly the same, until I changed amplifiers, speakers, everything in fact, and the small runs of cables I used were too short (pieces of maybe 30-40cm weighing 2Kg easily because of all the copper in there).

In the end this is (or was ?) sold as special audiophile mains cord, but with nothing special in there except for the separate isolated strands (I recall 10 euro or so per meter). Think like one strand is sized similarly to a (one) normal mains wire, but now 8 or so are in there, 7 formed aound one in the middle and thick (teflon like) isolation around all.
I couldn't find plugs where this cable could go into, but without the outer isolation that just was OK for outdoor (the waterproof ones) plugs. Totally unmanagable because it wouldn't bend.
Joining all the strands in the plugs was nothing less than a pain (it's just too much of them), but doable.

Ha ! I now realize that there's even a picture of it somewhere in the forum. I attached it below.
And hey Bert, as you can see good old TwinDAC+ times ...

[Leo]

Hello Bert,

do you know where to buy Litze? When googling around only wholesale companies showed up.

regards,

Leo

[BertD]

do you know where to buy Litze? When googling around only wholesale companies showed up.

No, I am looking for an independent source just as well.

The supplier of the wire I am using here has to remain unknown to the "crowd".

Let me know if you can find any reliable source!

Bert

[PeterSt]

Anyone wants to get crazy ? Then have a cosy start with this page : http://www.litz-wire.com/ and click the "Types of Litz wire" links ( 1 u/i 8 ) at the bottom.

Done ? Then on to the real stuff : http://www.litz-wire.com/products.html

Maybe just call those guys, tell what you want and then ask for a representative near by.

Or call these guys : http://www.versnelhifi.nl/
That's where I bought mine.
... easily 20 years ago.

Or click the link in the above link and find yourself finding this : http://www.versnelhifi.nl/AQ_cable_theory.pdf
So you can bet my cable is AudioQuest, already because of that RF Stopper on my picture, and I recall that I bought that at the same time of that cable.

In the mean time it may be nice to read that PDF.
If you have another day ...

Peter

[Robert]

Gosh thought those Audioquest RF stoppers had long gone. They always seem to be an improvement on first listening but on second are not, they take something away from the real sound. I had them on all my Audioquest power cords but removed them all in the end. Nordost don't have them at all.

Using Nad for remote volume control only reason for inclusion between DAC and speakers. Recognise going direct is better but do like watching live concerts on screen. So conflict off interest but having been a drummer really prefer live sound concerts.

[PeterSt]

I don't know. I useD them. And only on the way OUT from a DAC.

[Scroobius]

My last system was all Audio Note and the DAC pre amp and power amps were originally powered with standard flex wire. I replaced with home made power cables (neutral / live twisted and earth run separately). I was surprised by the improvement. OK litz may be better who knows.

However, now I have balanced power supply transformer, a dedicated power spur and separate hi fi earth (spike in garden) - installing these made a really big improvement to my current system.

Since I installed the above I have tried standard mains flex and the "twisted" cables with the NOS1 and I could not hear any difference at all. I am tempted to try home brewed litz with the amplifier and NOS just out of interest.

But .... I would be installing say 30cm of litz mains cable which would then be connected to say 25m of power cable in the wall back to the Dis panel mmmm? Still anything is worth a try.

P

[juanpmar]

These pangea cable have good reviews in Audiogon. Enter Pangea in the Keywords (http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fr.pl?&1&procsrch&3&4&):

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGAC9SE

Juan

[BertD]

There isn't any information but the technique used is similar to the cable shown through the link you've provided. Both that and the Litze made the difference here in my system.

Additionally I have to inform that the way the wires are twisted that they have almost NO outside radiation pattern themselves negatively influencing interconnects or other "sensitive" spots. Its all cancelled out...

Bert

[GerardA]

Additionally I have to inform that the way the wires are twisted that they have almost NO outside radiation pattern themselves negatively influencing interconnects or other "sensitive" spots. Its all cancelled out...

That's why I used double coax.
With a solid core they are inflexible but don't give any hum to their environment. Plus and minus have their own core, the shields are connected on one side to the ground. Big outdoors connectors with rubber surround were needed for this. This way they are releatively easy to build. Just some tape a several places to keep them together.

[juanpmar]

Hey GerardA, why you don´t put some pictures of your cables? Would be nice to know something more on the way you guys build your cables.

Juan

[GerardA]

Haha.
then I'll first have to clean them and get the spiderrags off.
But they look simple, just a big round black plug with two white coax (sattelite antenna) wires and a yellow/green earthwire coming out of that.

[juanpmar]

Haha.
then I'll first have to clean them and get the spiderrags off.

Might be a good opportunity to make a general cleaning in the music room, sure someone will appreciate it, lol

Juan