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Author Topic: Burning audio CD while XX playing  (Read 53382 times)
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andy74
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« on: November 15, 2007, 12:26:47 am »

Before you start laughing Happy
Please refer to
http://www.digido.com/bob-katz/jitter.html
and read the passage "Can Compact Discs contain jitter?"

Now:
Couple days ago I have burned some audio CDs to listen in the car. I gave up on the CDR audio in general a while ago because it was too jittery for me.
But in the car it the least evil of all (I don't want to play from laptop in the car). So after couple of songs I realized that I feel something familiar in sound signature ( if I may).
And it jumped at me:

I was listening to XX 0.9r while burning audio CD!!!

So here it is Peter, another application for your player. You probably don't suspect how much more there is to your "know how".

So whatever is happening in XX that influences the SQ, the very same thing affects the quality (of jitter) of the audio CD being recorded.
see the link above for details.

Now you can start laughing. Happy

Please try it yourselves, when you are done, and share your thoughts

Andrey

PS. that's the way to bring the XX player to your CD player. Just choose version of XX you like, play something with it and burn CD audio in the bacground. and viola XX inside CD player. Happy
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« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2007, 02:55:15 am »

hehe and I thought I was the voodoo expert here.  Hi andy, not laughing at you laughing with you.  who knows.
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« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2007, 03:08:12 am »

Now, Andrey, I have a very open mind and I am not quick to discount anything. And I have heard many "interesting" theories in my time. But I have never heard an idea like this before! Forgive me while I pause to laugh a little . . .

OK, now that I got that out of the way . . . jitter is very easy to measure on CDs. (Mind you, I didn't say it's extremely accurate - just said it's "easy" to measure). You can use Nero CD/DVD Speed with BenQ DVD-Rom Drives and it will chart the amount of jitter on a disc (as a percentage). However, the lowest it will go is 7%. Or if you use certain Plextor drives, you can use a great utility called PxScan:
http://www.alexander-noe.com/cdvd/px/index.php
This utility will chart the jitter as a value (such as 1200). No one really knows what this value correlates to, however we know that a value of 1300 is considered LESS jitter than 1200. So the only thing of value with this test, is to measure a handful of discs, and simply determine which is lowest.

These are two examples of what you can do on a PC. But if you want better accuracy, you can always send your disc to be analyzed by AudioDev CATS CD Analyzer:
http://www.audiodev.com/?id=2088

Could be an interesting experiment. Of course, you know that a Plextor Premium will give you the best results and that the brand/type of CD-R you use will also affect the results.
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« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2007, 03:27:11 am »

Unfortunately I don't have such drives to do the testing in numbers.

But isn't it about type of jitter instead of less or more jitter, for XXHighEnd?
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« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2007, 04:38:14 am »

But isn't it about type of jitter instead of less or more jitter, for XXHighEnd?

Well, some other "jitter" expert can chime in here and add their knowledge. But the way I see it, the playback (as in XXHighEnd) is about the jitter "spectrum" (which I think you are referring to as the "type of jitter"). But what I'm referring to is the physical jitter on the CD, which means the amount of lands and pits that are not the precise length they're supposed to be. The varying lengths cause the timing inaccuracies (jitter).

When you burn CDs with your computer (assuming you use the same drive and same CD-Rs), the only difference is this physical jitter I'm referring to (and also BLER, but that's another story). Not a change in the jitter spectrum. (Which is the effect of your playback chain).
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« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2007, 07:51:19 am »

here goes vodoo:

And why this physical jitter recorded during XX playing cannot result in the same jitter spectrum when playing back.
According to the link I provided, Jitter "microcosmically" is transferred through power supply.
So the recorded CDR when played back recreates through power supply the same jitter spectrum as when it was recorded.

Don't have enough technical knowledge here. So I am just speculating.
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« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2007, 09:25:30 am »

Andrey - you act like the process of "burning" a CD-R is actually "recording" something and therefore "records" the jitter spectrum of your system onto your CD-R. That's not what is happening. An uncompressed WAV file on your computer does not contain "jitter" information. When you burn that file onto a CD-R, the data is a 100% bit-perfect copy. Jitter is only what happens during playback. Now if you read the file back as a data file and then streamed the audio out of memory (like a "memory player") then the fact that the pits and lands vary in length does not matter, hence it would be like playing music from a computer transport. But conventional CD players stream the audio of the CD in realtime, hence the variations in length of pits and lands will add jitter (in addition to the jitter already inherent with this CD player and the signal it outputs).

Let me also say, there is no CD burner in the world that can burn a CD-R with perfectly shaped pits and lands (zero jitter). (That would be equivalent of playing music from memory or a computer transport). And even if you had a perfect CD (with zero jitter), the playback chain - from the laser to the power supply to the clock/oscillator and all the way through the signal - would still introduce a jitter (spectrum).

The only thing that's going to change the amount of inaccurately shaped pits and lands on your CD-R is the capability and accuracy of the laser (of your burner) and accuracy of the speed of the spinning disc, and the quality of the blank CD-R. By multi-tasking your burning and playing XXHighEnd, the only impact this will have is on the buffer of the CD burner, which will either result in buffer under/overrun or a more/less accurate speed of the data transfer (in conjunction with the speed of the spinning disc).

So to sum up, I think you are confusing two different culprits of jitter. The only jitter that physically exists on a CD, is the inaccurately shaped pits and lands. The music file itself does not contain jitter information.
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« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2007, 01:12:13 pm »

Quote
Now you can start laughing. Happy

I can tell you, your timing was perfect. I read this line, and bursted of laughing.
The tense created by the introduction (I read the link, although I knew it already) perfectly came together with the crux. No jitter there !

But OK, here's my personal problem ... I believe you.
But now, how can it be ?

First of all, we can fairly assume that nobody really knows. Or better : nobody knows what's really happening in these areas of audio. On the other hand, I myself really try to pay attention to all what is happening here at my own place, as well as so called unimportant / small things people report. I all take them into account, and all together they slowly form a picture which in the end will create better audio playback.

That being said, obviously I already know from many things going on, or otherwise XXHighEnd would not be alive. But honestly, it is my feeling that this is 10% only of all there is. But mind you, this first 10% is already unknown generally, and there too you might appraciate that as being voodoo. But it really is not; it is just a matter of recognizing what's going on, and from there on proving it's true. That this still would be far from real science is another matter, but also unimportant (to me anyway).


To the subject, and 100% based on what Andrey found is true (so keep that in mind please), my idea about it would be as follows :

First of all it would be a coincidence (I say this because otherwise my explanation would not stand);
It would be a coincidence to the matter of 0.9r inducing for this, while e.g. 0.9o will not. Otoh, if different sounding versions all induce for the same sound signature on a recorded CDRom (as per the subject), my explanation would even hold better.

The two tasks of audio playback on one side and burning the CD on the other, will interact. They will, say, vibrate, resonate.
Looking at the phenomenon "resonate" you can already feel why I think it is a coincidence; something resonates at certain frequencies only.
Btw, keep in mind that both processes (playback and burning) are 100% time constraint processes. So (persistent throughout) resonating can be there indeed.

Techies/engineers will immediately say "BS", because the CD burner will work with buffers, and whatever is happening software wise, cannot influence the endpoint at the end of that buffer.
Well, that would be true for USB playback just the same. Right ? ... go have a listen ...  Happy

I cannot tell for the CD burner and how that could be influenced, but I guess if I'd want to, I could. I could by means of the very same I do it with the DAC.

Oh, it may occur to you that I don't elaborate on "resonance" (what, why etc.). no
 Happy


Where above is a "far out" explanation, I also like (better) to have this one :

For me, definitely things are going on in our brains when we hear a kind of playback we like, for the coming future;
Once we hear a playback which has something we like, from then on we automatically recognize this for the future. We can't do without that experience anymore. Example in the area of Andrey :
Each and every day I seem to recognize the "quality" of my car radio as a quality which was not there yesterday. I mean, when something better came from XXHighEnd, I tend to recognize the same in the car. Ok, my car equipment may be somewhat better than general, but actually it is just there, and I did not pay attention to it at buying it, and in fact it doesn't even interest me. I listen to it as background data, and things just occur to me ...
What would happen here, is that where I "learned" some good aspects of playback via my home system, some of those aspects can be there in the car equipment, but are recognized by the brain only when they are in the brain first ...
That the total picture keeps on being wrong in car equipment (ok, like mine) is unrelated to that. Good things only jump out when you know them.

Of course, when this would be the explanation of Andrey's experience, now all his self burned (or any) CDs sounds like 0.9r in his car, so this is just a matter of trying that out.


Quite another subject is the jitter being on the CD, with the explanation of the pits being more straight / longer etc.;
Personally I think it is dangerous to call this jitter as such. Indeed, culprits in there only unveil at playback, but then only when reading is not appropriate. It would just be errorneous reading, impeeded by wrong burning. Of course the effect would be the same as time jitter, so for that matter it would be true. Note though that there is a difference between a (44K1) clock pointing at samples and because of deviation a sample is missed or read twice, and a reader which does not read accurately, just reading plain wrong data.

Do note that wrong data in these terms is bout reading a 0 where it whould be a 1 (or the other way around) which can happen anywhere in the byte, and if this is near a most siginicant byte ... call Houston (and assuming this is not captured by CRC checks, or can't be re-read within the expected time).
Time jitter as what we speek of generally, is about missing / re-providing a SAMPLE. Btw note that IMO this can be proved by recapturing the data at the end of your SPDIF etc., and that there is no way wrong data comes from it. This means the individual bits stay as ok as they were and nobody is going to tell me that the bits get mangled inside of the (bit shift registers of the) DAC afterall.

Wrong data read from a CD therefore is a zillion times worse than missing/repeating samples in the DAC (which by itself is a zillion times worse than the DAC not being accurate in providing the proper analogue voltage, but that's another matter again).


From above follows that real jitter on a burned CD would be about repeating samples (I don't think that missing samples can occur here), of which I actually don't know whether they can happen during the process of burning. Otoh, it is 100% sure this happens at ripping, actually caused by processes not being able to keep up and therefore buffers keep on having the same data, and since burning is very similar to reading, why not (in the early days of burning you were not even allowed to touch the PC because of buffers running empty, the process not being able to cope / capture that).


All together, and no matter my first explanation above, I tend to say "Busted !".
There would be, however, not much distance to "Plausible", when all is taken into account.

What remains is that I sure do believe Andrey in what he perceived.
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« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2007, 03:57:08 pm »

The two tasks of audio playback on one side and burning the CD on the other, will interact. They will, say, vibrate, resonate.
Looking at the phenomenon "resonate" you can already feel why I think it is a coincidence; something resonates at certain frequencies only.
Btw, keep in mind that both processes (playback and burning) are 100% time constraint processes. So (persistent throughout) resonating can be there indeed.


There is an analogy in Chemistry. Grin

Most pharmaceutical drugs are isolated through a process called crystallisation. Any one chemical can crystallise in a number of forms (polymorphs). Some of those forms have desirable characteristics such as enhance solubility and can be patented in their own right.

So workers throughout the world have often raced against each other to crystallise a particular polymorph and many workers dedicate years of research to the process.

There are a number of cases in history where a worker has crystallised a difficult, wanted form, in one Continent only for the same form to be isolated almost at the same time in a different Continent.

The phenomenon is known as morphic resonance where the blueprint for the crystal form somehow finds its way around the world instantly. Like the effect with the CD it cannot be proven or disproven at present. dntknw
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« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2007, 05:31:02 pm »

Hi Edward,

Thanks for the information about 100% bit perfect CDR copy unhappy. I have a knowledge.
And clarifying things about CDR recording process.
I never said that the music file contains jitter. Why are saying this? unhappy
And I don't confuse anything.
I may sound vodoo, but I understand what's going on. at least everything you said I agree with.
But why are saying for?

Andrey
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« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2007, 05:36:49 pm »

It does not record jitter spectrum on CDR. It record its usual physical pits and lands jitter but in some manner affected by what's going on in the system, including spectrum created by XX.

And somehow this physical pits and lands jitter reminds me of this jitter spectrum when played plack. And I am saying that it probably recreates si,ilar "picture" on the power supply. Vodoo.
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« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2007, 08:46:25 pm »

But why are saying for?

I'm sorry Andrey, your theory and explanations lost me. I thought I was just helping by adding clarification to the "burning" process. Oh well, I guess you already know everything and there's nothing else I can contribute to this topic.

Good luck with your voodoo.
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« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2007, 12:12:36 am »

And somehow this physical pits and lands jitter reminds me of this jitter spectrum when played plack. And I am saying that it probably recreates similar "picture" on the power supply. Vodoo.

Fascinating discussion. Andrey, what software were you using to burn the CDR while you were playing XX?
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« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2007, 12:17:09 am »

A very professional one: Roxio Creator Plus!
Happy

I am thinking about removing this complete topic unhappy
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« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2007, 01:39:36 am »

I am thinking about removing this complete topic


Please don't. Trust your ears! Just extend your experiment a little.

For comparison, have you burnt a CDR of the same track without XXHighEnd engaged (or different version of XXhighEnd loaded) to compare for any difference in sound against the CDR you already have?

I remember being scoffed at 20 years ago when I suggested tonearm height movements of +/- 2/1000ths of an inch around the "correct" VTA alignment could be easily heard by anyone. Had to demonstrate it to 40 members of the audio club before 36 of them agreed they could easily hear the differences.

Frank
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