A Visit to Nicks and a Surprise Finding

[Scroobius]

First of all a big thanks to Nick and Claire for a great day yesterday. Ros and I had a great time and the bbq was much enjoyed by us hungry hifiers.

Nick has been hunting the source of noise breakthrough in his system for some time. Yesterday I took my PC with me to Nick's and the result in respect of the noise problems can be seen here

http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2640.msg27394#msg27394

OK so what was the surprise? well Nick has been tracking down the noise problem because the SQ of his system has not been as good as it should be. The real surprise of the day is that with my PC in Nick's system the SQ is transformed - and I do mean transformed. Suddenly Nicks system sounded fantastic - a huge improvement. The difference was so large that I could here it down the corridor in the bathroom and Nick could hear it outside tending to the bbq. We were not listening for an improvement why would we? we just put my PC in to see if it displayed the same noise problem (which it did).

So it would appear that the noise problem is not the main issue affecting SQ in Nicks system. But of course that does not mean that fixing the noise problem would not improve things further.

To say we were surprised would be an understatement.

Mani - you have the same PC as Nick don't you? But I have to say I did not get the impression that your PC was holding back the performance of your system Mani when I heard it.

The issue for Nick certainly looks to be complicated maybe with my PC his system is somehow not affected so much by the noise? Or maybe the is something wrong with Nicks PC who knows? - not an easy problem to solve.

Paul

[PeterSt]

Thank you for sharing Paul. And on behalf of Nick, for the help. I know, this is about cosy coming togethers in the first place, but the tough problem Nick seems to have deserves a thank you to everybody who can contribute.

The man must have something in there we all overlook. Could be the colour of his car !
ha ha

Anyway, now we know that the audible noise is not coming from his PC as well.

To be continued in that other topic ...

Best regards,
Peter

[Scroobius]

Ah yes the car!!! - that should be for another topic as well what a beast it is I still have a silly grin on my face from the mad ride we had yesterday. Wow ....... Nick described the car as "Mad as a Box of Frogs" all I can say is I agree totally.

Paul

[Nick]

Ah yes the car!!! - that should be for another topic as well what a beast it is I still have a silly grin on my face from the mad ride we had yesterday. Wow ....... Nick described the car as "Mad as a Box of Frogs" all I can say is I agree totally.

Paul

Hi Paul,

It was a pleasure to spend the day with you and Ros and thanks so much for bringing your music components all the way here with you, it's such a help to have try components that are known to perform else where. You very nearly did not get to leave with your PC 

Regards our play in the car, a lot of people don't get too excited by the "race car chic" trim level and kick in the back delivery, preferring something softer  but you seem to appreciate the fun in these things  . It scares me to death when i'm a passenger in it but you never flinched once.

Cheers,

Nick.

[Scroobius]

Nick - It was a great flash back to my misspent youth racing cars I only get nervous if I don't trust the driver.

Probably the biggest smile for me is the thought of Claire taking Izzie to school in the Ultima - how cool is that? - Izzie must have a whole load of "street cred" - the coolest girl in school. What a hoot.

Anyway I am getting off topic now - great day hope you fix the speakers!! let me know how you get on.

P

[Nick]

Anyway I am getting off topic now - great day hope you fix the speakers!! let me know how you get on.

The tweeter problem was just the speaker cable as suspected so nothing to worry about an no problem to fix.

Cheers,

Nick.

[manisandher]

The real surprise of the day is that with my PC in Nick's system the SQ is transformed - and I do mean transformed...

... Mani - you have the same PC as Nick don't you? But I have to say I did not get the impression that your PC was holding back the performance of your system Mani when I heard it.

Yep, I think we use the same mobo and cooling system. I've also applied all of 'Nick's Tweaks', all of which seem to work very, very well IMO. My CPU is different though, so too other things like the power supply.

But I have a couple of other PCs here with XX loaded ready to go... and a couple of days coming up without wife/kids around. I'll endeavour to compare the following PCs in my main system against my current 'Le Monster':

1. The music PC in my office
- totally fanless design with Zalman TNN300 case
- ASRock Z77 Extreme4-M mobo
- i7-3770K CPU
- 16GB PC3-19200 memory
- single SSD with Win8/XX
- LAN 'on' with music 'streamed' from NAS before playing

2. The PC I use in my basement studio for capturing from the ADC via a Weiss AFI1
- totally fanless design with OrigenAE M10 case
- Jetway NF96FL-525 dual-core Atom mobo
- 4GB DDR2 800 memory
- single SSD with Win8/XX/music
- *Paul Hynes 12v linear PS*

Will report back (maybe under a new thread)...

Mani.

[Nick]

Just a quick update on working out what the difference is between Pauls PC and mine when we tried out both at the weekend.

I had lined up all of the parts to build a "PaulClone PC" ( haha ) but decided to buy the ancillery parts first and try them in my Socket 2011 Asus P9X79WS PC just in case it might be a single item causing the problem in my current PC.

So bought and fitted a new ATx power supply that is the same as Pauls. To say there is a transformation in SQ is an understatment. I will post more later when I have time on what has happened and the general effects on SQ and my noise problems.

For now the NEW ATx supply is a Seasonic SS-400FL2. I read a load of ATx reviews on line as research and indead the Seasonic SS-400FL2 does have very good specs on paper (no tests give traces of wideband noise but ill take a look with my scope).

The OLD ATx supply was a Coursair AX750, it is to be banished to the family office PC as penance . I know a few people are using these so, assuming that my model did not have a one off problem, this could be of use to other people.

Cheers,

Nick.

[manisandher]

Ah well, I use a Seasonic X-460FL in Le Monster. It's an older design but had the lowest noise/ripple figures when I bought it a couple of years ago. So maybe that explains why there seemed nothing obviously wrong when Paul was here.

I actually have two X-460FLs installed in Le Monster. The initial idea was to have one just powering the mobo and the other powering all the ancillaries. This idea seemed to work OK. However, a year or so ago I thought that maybe having two SMPSs is a bad idea - both interfering with each other and sending even more cr*p back into the mains than a single one. So I unplugged one - it's still in the case doing nothing. Maybe I'll try it again...

But I will try my other two PCs in my main system. I'm particularly interested in hearing how a system with really ZERO SMPSs sounds.

Mani.

[Nick]

Ah well, I use a Seasonic X-460FL in Le Monster.

But I will try my other two PCs in my main system. I'm particularly interested in hearing how a system with really ZERO SMPSs sounds.

Going on the reviews the 460FL seems to have the ~same noise performance as the 400w version give or take a mv of ripple or so. I can see why your satisfied with them.

Going Linear would be very interesting. I put a Watt meter on the mains lead to the Asus P9x79 PC. Running at normal CPU clock speed it consumes about 125 watts at idle and running XX it is the same so it should be possible to achieve linear supply even with a "fast" PC.

Have you see these ?

http://www.coreaudiotechnology.com/products/music-servers/atx-linear-power-supply/

It would easily deal with 125 watt draw. ItemAudio are reselling in the UK IIRC.

[manisandher]

Thanks for the link Nick. $2500 and $6000 for their S1 and S2 ATX linear supplies (in the US) respectively seems a little steep. But I've contacted Mark at Item Audio in any case to ask for more info.

Cheers, Mani.

PS. Time to collect my eldest from nursery... in the NSX me thinks

[PeterSt]

Going Linear would be very interesting. I put a Watt meter on the mains lead to the Asus P9x79 PC. Running at normal CPU clock speed it consumes about 125 watts at idle and running XX it is the same so it should be possible to achieve linear supply even with a "fast" PC.

Nick, despite of what I said before about my 130W cpu etc., do notice that I am using something like 830MHz max for processor frequency. Can be half of that just the same, and it depends a bit on what I did and how my PC liked me when booting it.
All it takes is being able to do this.
(I talked about this before and it requires a BIOS/OS combination bug or whatever it is which allows for it - which is also about my expression that my PC must like me ).

Peter

[Nick]

PS. Time to collect my eldest from nursery... in the NSX me thinks

Naturally, the only correct car choice for the journey 

[Scroobius]

Just a quick point I was talking to Nick this afternoon and I just want to point out that when Nick says the performance of his system is transformed it really is transformed in a very big way. I say this after hearing what my PC did to his system last weekend. Basically Nicks system was/is suddenly transformed into a system of the very highest calibre.

But the point is that when I changed to the Seasonic fanless it was just one part of an excercise on my part to get rid of all fans. I ended with a new case (my old case would not take the Seasonic) the Reserator water cooling system etc. And I junked an old power supply the spec of which I cannot remember other than it had a fan. So a number of things changed all at the same time. The difference I noted was evolutionary not revolutionary. My system sounded good before the changes and better after. The change in SQ was not anything like the change that Nick has just encountered.

I would have to think it possible that there was a problem with Nick's PS I cannot believe that for most people changing to a fanless PS is going to make the difference Nick just experienced. But what a great result!.

Nice one Nick

Anyway I have to get back to the S5 ITL's - can't wait to get them up and running. Watch this space - OK another space because it will have to be another thread ha ha!! 

Paul

[boleary]

Well, looks like I have a Coursair 750 for sale. However, I have been so pleased with my sound that I believe Paul's terrific description of evolution versus revolution will likely be my experience. Then again maybe not, cause I'm using the APEXI Capacitor card. Without the card my sound is less musical and  is a bit harsh. With the card the sound of "robots" goes away, everything relaxes and I believe i"m in the venue where the music is being made.  Also, my current Q5 setting is 2, which I attribute to my use of the capacitor card. Q5 at 5 is way too flat sounding. So I'll know more about evolution v. revolution after I give the Seasonic a listen. Will be ordering one in the next few days.

Thanks guys for being so damned determined in the quest for great sound!

[Nick]

Brian hi,

Your description of sound with and woithout the PCIe X-Sound card is very similar to what I was finding, the ATx replacement coule be a good direction to try. I hope the Seasonic works for you as well.

Best Nick.

Ps I keeping meaning to post the location of SpeedStep and C1E settings in our BIOS for you after you question in the C1E thread. Do you still need to know where they are ?

[boleary]

Thanks Nick, yeah, figured it out. Will see how the Seasonic sounds.

[juanpmar]

So bought and fitted a new ATx power supply that is the same as Pauls. To say there is a transformation in SQ is an understatment. I will post more later when I have time on what has happened and the general effects on SQ and my noise problems.

For now the NEW ATx supply is a Seasonic SS-400FL2. I read a load of ATx reviews on line as research and indead the Seasonic SS-400FL2 does have very good specs on paper (no tests give traces of wideband noise but ill take a look with my scope).

Hi Nick,

I wonder why you have chosen the SS-400FL2 in front of other models like the 460 or 520. Is it because of the better measurements of the 400 model or just because 400w is enough?

Best regards,
Juan

[Nick]

Juan hi,

The main reason was that it was way was in Paul's PC and I was keen to use exactly the same. I put a mains power tester on the PC (3037 CPU) and found that it only uses about 120 watts whilst playing music at normal CPU clock speed so that checked out ok.

The reviews on line of the 400 460 and 520 versions show the larger versions making just a small amount more ripple noise but not sure that this was a problem so I went for the 400w version in the end.

Brian is switching out a corsair ax750 for a seasonic I think so his experience may help understand if my corsair was just a poor unit or if the seasonic is generally a good upgrade.

Cheers,

Nick.

[tillen]

Hello!

I changed a Corsair With a seasonic 520 FL, and there was big differnce in sound quality. Much less noise, and all over better sound.

Arnt

[Nick]

Hello!

I changed a Corsair With a seasonic 520 FL, and there was big differnce in sound quality. Much less noise, and all over better sound.

Arnt

Arnt,

Very pleased to here that it has worked well. I was a bit concerned that people would give the change a try only to find it was my particular ax750 which was not working. Evidence could be mounting that  as the seasonic may just be better for music.

Regards
Nick.

[PeterSt]

The Seasonic has to be better because the BeQuiet is in the "XXHighEnd PC" !
(both are the same, though not all parts seem to be)

[juanpmar]

Juan hi,

The main reason was that it was way was in Paul's PC and I was keen to use exactly the same. I put a mains power tester on the PC (3037 CPU) and found that it only uses about 120 watts whilst playing music at normal CPU clock speed so that checked out ok.

The reviews on line of the 400 460 and 520 versions show the larger versions making just a small amount more ripple noise but not sure that this was a problem so I went for the 400w version in the end.

Brian is switching out a corsair ax750 for a seasonic I think so his experience may help understand if my corsair was just a poor unit or if the seasonic is generally a good upgrade.

Cheers,

Nick.

Thanks Nick. So far my Corsair AX 750 is working fine, I do not hear any strange noise nor have I ever been able to hear if the fan is operating or not. The sound is fantastic but who knows...I haven´t tested other ps. I have a bequiet! in my work pc and maybe I´ll give it a try to see if Peter is right  .
I would like to hear from Brian when testing the Seasonic, for now let him enjoy his vacation.

Best regards,
Juan

[boleary]

Thanks Juan. Got home this evening. Am expecting the Seasonic by Wednesday. Will hopefully post impressions  soon thereafter, but it could take a bit of listening. 

Spent a couple of hours listening tonight and I just don't see how it can get much better.........

[Mamba315]

I had read some of this power supply talk yesterday, then this morning I ran across this 'audiophile' computer power supply and thought someone on here maybe crazy enough to try it.  A little expensive since its audiophile... 750-770 USD

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=118599.msg1246358;topicseen#new

Matt

[acg]

Matt, that one is an external power supply (which is not bad) but you would also need to buy a picoPSU to fit onto the mobo in your music server and break up the 12v into its individual rails.  There are better options than the picoPSU apparently BUT this power supply is only 150w which I doubt would boot a high powered computer such as those recommended for XX and the NOS1.

However, if you had a pc like any of the CAPS machines (including the Zuma) then this power supply would be enough to start them up.     

Anthony

[PeterSt]

What I got from it is that this only feeds the MoBo (for its explicit purpose).

Peter

[boleary]

So, I received the Seasonic yesterday, installed it last night and had a good two hour session. As Nick found, from the first note I experienced a transformation of my system. A significant layer of glare, which I previously only heard as HF distortion when, say, a vocalist goes from 0 to 60 mph in an instant, was removed. Suddenly  quiet pieces or parts of tracks,where I thought there was no glare,  sounded completely different: more detail, air, and presence. Overall everything sounds way, way less aggressive (Thanks for the glossary!).....and, before yesterday, I never would have described my sound as aggressive.

So Nick, thank you so much for being so conscious of and determined to figure out your noise problem. Thanks, really, for those trips in your car noise hunting. Can you now say that you found the source of the problem? Also, thank you Paul for lugging your gear to Nick's to help trouble shoot the problem. Not an easy task with those Reserator umbilicals hanging off the cpu.

I know its been said a bunch of times before, but I want to acknowledge again what a great community this is. Though we each sit "alone" in our rooms, that we manage to maintain a mutuality  that benefits Peter's project overall and each of us individually, without great sniping or ego upset, is remarkable. It's just so important that folks be willing to share their respective experiences regardless of how experienced or knowledgeable one may be. Given my lack of knowledge and experience in the audio world, it just makes me laugh that I am a participant in this "discussion." 

One last thing, several years ago, sitting on my couch, the wisest audio guy I know told me that in audio everything is relative to each person's system, or, as Paul Simon sang, one man's roof is another man's floor. That for the last fifteen months I've been mostly blown away with the sound of my system is what it is. The Seasonic revealed that that sound, in part, was cr*p! Another good laugh!

Hey Juan, how fast can you get to the store. 

[boleary]

One other thing. The Seasonic vents from the top so if your case requires a top mount PS, like mine, you will likely need a new case. My Seasonic is currently sitting on top of the PC, on a mouse pad should case vibrations cause it to want to slide around. Need to start looking for a new case.

[juanpmar]

So, I received the Seasonic yesterday,...
Hey Juan, how fast can you get to the store. 

Hi Brian, I get going. You have also purchased the SS-400FL2?.

Juan

[boleary]

Juan, yes, its the Platinum version of that 400 watt model.

[Scroobius]

One other thing. The Seasonic vents from the top

It was a shock to me when I opened the box so I had to buy a new case I recommend Antec One which is cheap (I love cheap!) and very well designed and laid out. Why pay more!

Nick and I have visited each other a few times now and we both agree that both of us have made big improvements to  our systems as a result. "Two Heads Are Better Than One" is the saying and that is certainly the case for us.

Anyway Nick's turn to come here next to listen to my new speakers which are nearing completion.

There have not been many responses to my recent post about speakers - you could be missing something very special - but Nick will get a chance to listen to S5's and S4's in separate locations and I am sure he will post comments on what he hears.

Paul

[Nick]

One other thing. The Seasonic vents from the top

"Two Heads Are Better Than One"

Anyway Nick's turn to come here next to listen to my new speakers which are nearing completion.

Paul,

I could not agree more ! and I cannot wait to hear your new speakers next trip down. Thanks again for lugging all of you fine kit to mine. Its so useful having known reference points to work with.

Best,

Nick.

[PeterSt]

One other thing. The Seasonic vents from the top so if your case requires a top mount PS, like mine, you will likely need a new case. My Seasonic is currently sitting on top of the PC, on a mouse pad should case vibrations cause it to want to slide around. Need to start looking for a new case.

Brian ... huh ?
With all the trials and attempts for the better PSU I've run into these as well. But all I did was putting them upside down. Looks odd, but just works.

The BeQuiet (but please sort out whether it really is the same !) normally vents downwards. And the best thing of it, it is small(er) formfactor so it will fit all.

Peter

[juanpmar]

Peter, is your bequiet! also fanless?, what model is it?

Juan

[PeterSt]

Juan,

Oh wait ... about venting down or up or side ways ...
Are you guys referring to fanless designs ? OF COURSE *they* vent upwards.

Apologies if I have been confusing in this context.

No, the BeQuiet is not fanless. But you won't hear one thing of it (the whole XXighEnd PC is speced for under 19dBA).

Peter

[juanpmar]

I see, thanks Peter

Juan

[PeterSt]

Yes, you see. But I do not !
So ... are you guys talking about fanless designs ?

(sorry for asking again, but I feel a bit stupid now at having made the (possible) mistake)

Regards,
Peter

[boleary]

Peter, yes, we are talking completely fanless designs. I'm amazed at the difference in SQ cause my Coursair PS fan only turned on above a certain temp, and, as far as I could tell, it never got hot enough to ever turn on!

[juanpmar]

Oh wait ... about venting down or up or side ways ...
Are you guys referring to fanless designs ? OF COURSE *they* vent upwards.
Peter

In my pc case the Seasonic could go in the upper part the same way as the Corsair (I guess). All the four sides of the ps will be vented that way.

Juan

[Nick]

Juan,

Looking at the pictures of your case with ventilation on all sides I would think the Seasonic supply will get on fine in there. Mine is at the bottom of the case with no fans in the entire  pc and is fine for heat.

Cheers,

Nick

[Jud]

Peter, is your bequiet! also fanless?, what model is it?

Juan

Re the manufacturer(s) for BeQuiet -

The smaller ones, including the Pro P10 550W are made by FSP which is Be Quiet's favorite OEM while the higher capacity ones are made by Seasonic, one of the best PSU manufacturers with great experience and high performance products.

I believe the SS models of BeQuiet begin above 550 watts, and below that they're made by FSP (Taiwanese if I remember correctly).

[juanpmar]

I have the fanless Seasonic SS-400FL2 installed for one week now in my music pc. The first impression was of a more detailed sound, but after that first moments I realized that the differences, in my system, are minor if any. It is true that I´m making  at the same time changes in the bios with Nick´s settings, that could condition my opinion but I also made those changes with the Corsair AX750 with no appreciable differences among both ps. At the end what´s my opinion about these two ps?, well, if I´d have to buy a new ps I´ll buy the Seasonic, but if I´d have a Corsair AX-750 and it was working well (as was my case) I´ll keep the Corsair. Now that I have both ps I´ll keep using the Seasonic for two reasons, it is not worse than the Corsair in any case and I´m lazy to change the ps again. On the other hand the Corsair is enough powerful to don´t use the fan, in fact when I removed the Corsair from the case after more than two years of continue use the fan was absolutely clean, no dust at all, it means that the fan wasn´t used at all or seldom used. So if for some reason you want to have a more powerful ps than the fanless Seasonic I think the Corsair is still a good choice.

I respect other´s opinion but this is my experience. I hope it helps other Corsair owners.

Best regards,
Juan