W8 Ticks

[Scroobius]

Peter,

When listening to music I get ticks/skips. Sometimes its OK sometimes it is infrequent sometimes worse than others. It happens when using IMDISK or running from HDD. It only happens in W8 it is never a problem in W7 with the same settings (dual boot). It seems to happen regardless of settings in W8.

I seem to remember you have mentioned this before and IIRC you had it for a while but it stopped.

Any ideas what I can do to rid my system of this pesky bug?

Cheers

Paul (retired batch file programmer).

[AlainGr]

Hi Paul,

I can't explain why this happens, but I just know that at some point, I had to reduce the NOS1 driver from 16 to 12ms, even lower.

I also have experienced stuttering when having "Nervous rate" at 70 +...

Maybe you have already done this, but I suspect that what would have been working for W7 does not behave the same with W8 ?

Regards,

Alain

[juanpmar]

Peter,

When listening to music I get ticks/skips.

Here I have also some ticks (not skips) with W8 but I had it with or without Imdisk, so I don´t think that the problem is Imdisk. One loud tick happens when restarting the computer at the moment it is turned off, that happens if I don´t wait for around 30 seconds after closing XXHE. Now I´m testing a linear power supply for the external hard drive (with data) and the ticks are much lower and very often there is none. Could those ticks have to do with the wall wart power supplies?

Best regards,
Juan

[PeterSt]

Hey Paul,

(and for others, I think Paul talks about ticks during playback)

I don't recognize ticks at all. The stops yes. I never ever had one anymore after my attempt to change the default "power saving" setting on USB (in Windows Power Settings). That made it worse (as it seemed; only used that setting for one hour maybe) and then I set it back to were it was.
No stops ever since. Can hardly be a coincidence, because I had one each and every day.

Try it ...

Peter

[Scroobius]

Peter & Alain - thanks for your suggestions I tried them both (NOS1 driver to 12ms) and USB power to off (still got ticks) and back to on (still got ticks). Actually maybe not so much ticks as occasional static sound.

So I still have ticks. Anymore suggestions welcome I have run out of ideas. By the way this is not new it has happened since going to W8 its just that only now have I had time to investigate properly.

P

[PeterSt]

Ok Paul - Ticks exactly when ?

[Scroobius]

Randomly during playback nothing for a while then some static/ticks together BUT earlier I reduced NOS1 driver further to 8ms and have not heard a tick since. Mmmm need to give it an evening to really give it a proper test as it was somewhat random before.

Watch this space.............

Alain - if it works I owe you a beer (or two.....)

P

[AlainGr]

Cool !

I remember now, it stopped at 8ms for me... I was trying to mimic Peter's parameters, then I realized i could not imitate him

Alain

[juanpmar]

I remember now, it stopped at 8ms for me...
Alain

Hi Alain your solution works (almost totally). If I reduce the USB buffer size in the NOS1 driver from 16ms to 12ms the ticks barely audible and that´s being very near to the speaker and at 8ms I have to put my ear almost touching the speaker to ear an almost imperceptible tick every time a song starts. Now the ticks don´t bother me at all, so thank you! The problem, if it means that there is a problem, is that the ticks are still there.

Best regards,
Juan

[AlainGr]

Hi Juan,

I am not sure if this is related to underclocking or to any setting in XXHE that is too near some kind of boundary... I would try it in NORMAL OS mode also to see if anything about this has an effect or not.

Having multiple settings interacting with each other has its pros and cons .

Regards,

Alain

[juanpmar]

Hi Juan,

I am not sure if this is related to underclocking or to any setting in XXHE that is too near some kind of boundary... I would try it in NORMAL OS mode also to see if anything about this has an effect or not.

Having multiple settings interacting with each other has its pros and cons .

Regards,

Alain

Alain, I haven´t tried it in Normal mode, I´ll do it to see what happens.

Best regards,
Juan

[AlainGr]

Juan,

Just an observation... The tick that you hear at the beginning of a song has been here since the beginning, when I was still using WinXP... Do you mean that or other ticks happening while the music is playing ?

Alain

[juanpmar]

Just an observation... The tick that you hear at the beginning of a song has been here since the beginning, when I was still using WinXP... Do you mean that or other ticks happening while the music is playing ?

Alain, I´m talking about the tick that´s at the beginning of a song, and yes it is there forever, I don´t know why I thought that with W8 it should have gone. Anyway, with your settings in the NOS1 driver (12ms/8ms) the tick is unnoticeable. The other tick I have is much loud and it happens when I restart the computer if I don´t wait for a while, 30 seconds or even more, after closing XXHE.

Juan

[Scroobius]

At 8ms the problem appears to be reduced for me - better than 16ms. But at 4ms it does not improve any further so not the complete answer. Interestingly I do not seem to get the problem at all on tracks/albums that are more dense with more going on in the bass. With string quartets and guitar music I still get the problem but it is certainly reduced compared with 16ms. It is only something that happens in W8 never had a problem in W7 with the same settings.

P

[AlainGr]

Ah... Could it be that these 2 situations are from 2 different sources ?

Alain

[AlainGr]

Hi Paul,

I guess I will not taste my beer for a while, but I will raise my glass to you and the solution that will come from Peter

Alain

[AlainGr]

Hi Juan,

I think that the problem you express has more to do with the way the NOS1 and Windows behave.

I guess we are talking about unattended mode. I can't say if it does the same in attended mode.

Like you mention, if I wait long enough after the music is gone, then no noise happens.

When the music finishes, the NOS1 is still sending a "silent signal". I would compare this to "pressure in the conduit". If you immediately restart the PC, this is "cut" by Windows at some point and there is a residual that is "released" as a tick...

My explanation is "full of holes", but I am sure that Peter has a clearer explanation than I

Alain

[PeterSt]

Guys,

It looks like I need to close this topic. You are clearly talking about 3 totally different situations. This should be clear to you just as it is to me.

Ticks at reboot are very well known are are about the PC and USB (again) and it creates DC Offset. Watch the NOS1 meters. This should not be in this topic.

Ticks at track starts are even more known and this is a bug in the XXHE software which I guess I will never find. That these depend on buffer sizes is not known to me. Start a topic about this if you want. But not in here please.

What remains are the random ticks Paul talks about. I think that is allowed to stay because it was Paul's subject after all (but he could have made it more clear maybe).

Regards,
Peter

[juanpmar]

Thanks Alain.

Peter, that´s Ok, for my part the topic is closed, I do not experience random stops. The only other thing that happens to me, and very rarely, are stops in the middle of the music and it recovers with Alt + X or mouse movement, if you want treat it in another topic or here, what you think is best.

Regards,
Juan

[PeterSt]

Juan, please do if you think it should be solved for you. But I think a topic about that already exists ?

Kind regards,
Peter

[juanpmar]

Juan, please do if you think it should be solved for you. But I think a topic about that already exists ?

Kind regards,
Peter

Ok: http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2706.msg27988;topicseen#msg27988

Thanks,
Juan

[Scroobius]

After running for some time with NOS1 driver buffer setting at 8ms I still get ticks but less than at 16ms. Actually it can be more like static so after a (sometimes considerable) period of say 10 minutes without ticks I get a short sharp burst of ticks. It is also more prevalent on string / guitar / cello music than on denser music. Actually if I play a denser piece of music I hear nothing at all.

I then reduced the buffer to 2ms (1ms does not work so 2ms is the threshold on my system) and apparently the ticks have stopped. I say apparently because I am not convinced that the problem has been fixed because if I listen carefully I can hear what sounds like spasmodic uneven sounds - maybe static that does not get a chance to get going because of the short buffer time. Well that probably makes no sense but anyway ............

Cheers Paul

[boleary]

I have had this issue as well but I think less often than Paul. In a two hour listening session it will usually happen one time, but sometimes two. It's always random and always in the middle of a track. Here it is somewhat like a popping sound though not very loud so it seems like a tick. I haven't tried adjusting the buffer yet but will give it a try. It happens with both the ASRock and ASUS mB's. Never happened with W7, which I haven't listened too in quite a while.

[PeterSt]

Paul (Brian won't be able to answer this I think ?),

Can you recognize that this is on the beat of the music ?
Maybe you recall a somewhat longer topic about this (W7 times and maybe just over a year ago). But this was solved if all is right ...
IOW, be sure to use the last XXHighEnd version (undoubtedly so, but saying anyway).

Peter

[Scroobius]

Peter - it is too random it does not seem to be related to anything in the music. Am using latest software. Will listen again tonight see if I can get any more clues.

Paul

[PeterSt]

What about changing the Clock resolution ?
Or first set Q5 to 0 maybe ...

Peter

[Scroobius]

Clicks occur with all the following settings:

Q5=0 and Clock Res=0.5
Q5=0 and Clock Res=Nothing
Q5=5 and Clock Res=0.5
Q5=5 and Clock Res=Nothing

Can take quite a while for ticks/static to come along because they occur so randomly.

Paul

[Scroobius]

Hi Peter - I have not managed to solve this problem but the problem is reduced by reducing latency so with settings at Q1=10,0,0,0,5 Q1f=1 and SFS=2 the "Ticks" have become shorter more like the ticks between tracks. So not a solution maybe a workaround.

Oh and I have found an album track where the problem is totally repeatable. Maybe I could take a WAV screenshot and indicate where the problem occurs if that helps.

Any ideas for further tests welcome.

Paul

[Scroobius]

After further checks I found that these "Clicks" happen in Windows 7 as well. So then I checked the actual "ripped" track using a WAV editor. These clicks are on the file on disc. Now that is a worry. First thoughts were that these could have been caused by EAC but then I found clicks in a track I ripped many years ago and I know for absolutely certain that there were no clicks when the original track was ripped.

Is it possible that clicks have got onto the file during copying - that does not seem possible. Any ideas anyone? how could a file be corrupted? Actually thinking about it what is strange is that the file in question has clicks in very defined places in the music passage - along with the beat. I would have to think they must have always been there but for sure I would have noticed them they stick out like a sore thumb in the music.

  Paul

[AlainGr]

Hi Paul,

Do you go on Qobuz website ? If you can and you find that album, it is most of the time possible to get only individual songs.

It could help you determine if this is in that recording or not ?

Alain

[AlainGr]

There is also another program that compares with the Accurip database. I heard about this a few weeks ago. It's called Perfect Tunes (http://www.dbpoweramp.com/perfecttunes.htm). You can use the unregistered version, just to see if it indicates something.

Hope this helps...

Alain

[PeterSt]

Paul,

The fact that you did not hear the ticks before doesn't tell all. It fairly much depends on how good the chain is (and XXHighEnd itself already matters a lot).

If you like you can send me the file (through filemail.com please) and if you have an indication at what mm:ss:xx to look for that would be great.

Peter

[Scroobius]

Peter - I have made some more checks and it is very odd. I have a master "Office" PC on my network and I rip albums onto a disc on that PC using EAC.

For music replay I have a separate "Music" PC that runs XX. I mirror the music directory from the Office PC onto a disc on the Music PC using Robocopy. Actually the "Music" PC disc is a Seagate 3T USB3 disc so it is transportable.

I use Robocopy to mirror the Master Music directory onto the Music PC 3T disc.

I have just checked two tracks (on the 3T USB3 disc) that I know have "Clicks" on them and I have emailed them to you with time info so you can find the clicks.

BUT and here is the really strange thing the same (master) files on the Master Music disc on the "Study" PC are OK NO CLICKS. 

So I just ran robocopy to mirror the Master music directory onto the 3T Seagate and no files were updated which is fine because I have not added or changed any files. But the 3T Seagate version of the offending file still has the clicks and the master version of the same file does not. So it looks as though the clicks appeared during the copy process or could they appear after the copy process????

I have sent the files by Filemail.

Edit: actually it has to be inconceivable to get clicks onto the files during the copy process. So how could they get there?

Edit (another): I just deleted a file (with clicks) on the 3T USB disc and then copied the Master file (no clicks) onto the 3T USB disc to replace the deleted file. This time there are far fewer clicks but there still are a couple. So it does appear this is a problem that occurs during copying. I wonder if USB3 is the problem - seems unlikely though.

Cheers

Paul

[Scroobius]

After more checks I am sure this problem has been caused by the USB3 connection. I was using a USB3 extension cable which I then removed and plugged direct into the USB3 socket on the back of the PC - no problems then I can copy without any clicks appearing.

So beware of USB connected discs.
Paul

[acg]

Interesting Paul.  I hope the solution holds for a while and you have solved your problem!

I had an interesting one today...the midrange got all hazy and harder to listen to than I am used to, not a great deal but noticeable.  I remembered that I had left the Ethernet cable in the back of the XXHE pc while transferring music to the HDD so I pulled it out and things are back to normal.  In the last few days I have moved the NAS into the ceiling with its own UPS and about 15m of cat5e cable which at first glimpse seems to be acting as an antenna for something or other.

Cheers,

Anthony

[PeterSt]

Hey Paul,

I didn't look into the files yet (no time), but can you prove to yourself it is not the USB connection itself over which the ticks appear ?

So, you moved the USB3 disk to the back of the PC, copied over that connection and ... lef the connection be at your now tick-free attempt of playback ?

Regards,
Peter

[Scroobius]

OK I copied files over to the internal disc of my Music PC over the network - no clicks.

I copied files onto the 3T USB3 disc by plugging directly into the USB3 socket at back of the Study PC - no clicks.

I then copied files onto the 3T USB3 disc but this time with the USB3 extender back cable in place - and clicks appeared on the copied files.

Then using Robocopy to mirror a large music file onto the 3T USB3 disc with the USB3 extender cable in place (when Robocopy runs a DOS box opens and you can watch % progress as the files copy across) and I noticed that if I "played" with the USB3 plug in the extender cable female socket that the % progress speed slowed down. Pretty damming evidence against the extender cable I would say.

So the USB3 extender cable is now in the bin awaiting collection from our local bin men.

I shall get hold of a better quality extender cable or a front panel extender to get USB3 on the front panel of my PC but it will be thoroughly tested first.

I had always assumed that error correction protocols would prevent errors in the data transfer - so a useful lesson for me.

By the way I did a quick test using the same extender cable on a USB2 link and could not get any clicks but I got bored waiting for the files to copy across and so that test was far from exhaustive.

Paul

[PeterSt]

Hi Paul,

I'm afraid you didn't get my message (or I don't understand yours);

What I say (explicitly now) is :

- No copy will destroy your data if all is right (and it will be I think).
- The ticks emerge by using the particular connection.

So instead of copying all over to all places over all sorts of connections, you should just play over all these sorts, starting with the copy which shows ticks to whatever connection.

I am suggesting this, because it seems a 1000 times more feasable that it's playback "errors" than copy errors (which latter should NEVER happen).

Peter

[Scroobius]

Peter - probably I misunderstand you but anyway.

No copy will destroy your data if all is right (and it will be I think)

The clicks are on the WAV files I sent you for sure and absolutely you will hear them (try right at the end of the "Oleo" track and let me know what you hear). The clicks are in definite places on the WAV file and will be heard on whatever system you play them regardless of whatever connection you use (I am using my study PC and hear them now). The good master versions of the same files have no clicks.

It has to be copy errors unless I really am being dumb (OK I should not say that as you will probably now prove me wrong now ha ha).

Cheers

Paul

[PeterSt]

Ok Paul, all clear. It's only that (at first) you didn't confirm nor denie my suggestion that it could be the playback side of things.

But a copy which doesn't copy - that's way baaad.

Regards,
Peter

[Scroobius]

I am going to get hold of a good quality USB3 extension lead and see if I can replicate the problem. But even so with a "bad lead" has to be a surprise that there can be data errors.

[CoenP]

I am going to get hold of a good quality USB3 extension lead and see if I can replicate the problem. But even so with a "bad lead" has to be a surprise that there can be data errors.

Fwiw the USB connection with the NOS is very sensitive. If I just acidentally touch the cable the music can stop with a loud plop. No more NOS1 in the driverpanel.

Today I had to reconnect the NOS1 and experenced ticks. As fisrt I thought it was windows gone astray, but the I got the luminous idea to reconnect again (at PC side). Result: no more ticks!

When still ticking I checked the NOS driver and all errors at the ticks were fifo related.

I can vividly imagine that an extension cord with a less than perfect connection in the chain introduces ticks in your system.

Regards, Coen