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Author Topic: Sound of the Orelo MKII  (Read 37869 times)
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PeterSt
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« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2014, 08:03:38 am »

Thank you for that hint Bruno. Actually I was looking for this in response to Joachim, but it wouldn't get into my mind.
Now I am not sure whether this is Sheffield Lab, but I recall that they excel on recording kick drums but I didn't like the remainder. So this was a subject maybe two years back or so, but I don't think it was in this forum because I can't find it. Throughout time this Track/Drum Record has popped up a couple of times though, first in 2007 and not coincidental by our friend pedal with 7x12" per side subwoofers.

I am going to try it myself later today.
Peter
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« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2014, 08:41:41 am »

oops

Just found a review of this Sheffield' Track/Drum Record I wrote myself in 2011. Better not play it for reference ...

But it is funny, because half of the remarks (below) I could have made from yesterday's little trial just the same. It is only that I didn't mention it all.

Some quoted "highlights" :



First off, it is completely dead. There's nothing alive in it. A robot.

Same I thought yesterday of the Stereophile track.

Next, I do not perceive a high DR at all. So, it should be, but it looks like not to be at all.

So this is odd. Recordings especially created to show off drumming does NOT show dynamics ? I mean, didn't I tell the same from yesterday's (super slow).

Down to the real merits of what I hear, it is distortion all over. Each hit on a tom, snare and even base drum carries the exact same distortion. It makes the drum sticks stick to the skins.

And really, this sure is not my standard vocabulary. I really really didn't even know I wrote that 2 page "review".

If I may call it like that, the release sound is always the same.

It is way way too dry (part of the being dead I think), and therefore there is no realism at all. I tried to imagine a dead room, but it is articial IMO.

Stereophile exactly the same.

It is the worse representation of toms etc. sounding different amongst eachother. Cymbals same story. This, while a great deal of the track(s) seems to be about explicit showoff of just that (differentiation).



Especially with the latter remark in mind, I will listen again tonight. So, I know that at some stage back at that time I/we got all better (XXHighEnd) for exploring the different sounding toms, but I also know how again that improved. Btw, the Stereophile track sure shows that.
Also, prior to that listening later today, I can already warn about the distortion (one of the remarks above) which the most easily can have come from Windows 7 and pre-1.186 ( we just know now in comparison to Windows 8 ).

So I am actually curious myself ...
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« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2014, 10:49:22 am »

Now this could be interesting or educational or ... not sure ...


Let me start with telling about the subject, because all is prone to be misinterpreted :
Our latter posts are about good examples of drumming recordings which started by me telling about my own recording which by so infinitely far exceeds everything I ever heard on any album. The subject is not about my superb recording techniques (I know so few about it that I can't destroy recordings, haha) - the subject is also not about a best in the world drum kit - and the subject is also not about how poor recordings on the albums we know are. So, it is only about finding a fine example of a good drumming recording, and while I say I don't know them, "you" may come up with examples, which next I compare with my own self recording.

So nobody should feel miserable about his "for life" example being debunked and we rather scratch our head and think about how things can end up so very poor. Of course it needs you to believe me with my close to 100% resemblance of the real kit.

Let me also tell you that this "review" I quoted from, was from within a subject about compressors and expanders and companders and such and again this album was handed as a best example.
Ehm of what ?

But now we see how difficult talking audio is because at playing the album yesterday I ran into a biggest surprise.
Also, please be with me at comparing with the real thing. So, this is not per se about a better or poor recording, but how it would compare to the real thing which coincidentally can be done these days. So look through these glasses, ok ?



I put up track 1. This did not last for 10 seconds because it was totally bass heavy and nothing to listen to for fun. Next track same thing, but let that play till things got unbearable. Then skipped to the Ron Tutt track, because that should be a better one for drumming ...

Now here's your hint : Ron Tutt is on track 5.

No no no. I just can not get how this can be regarded any good. It really really is nowhere and it is like my ears are stuffed. Way way too much bass heavy and in relation to that no highs. No dynamics.
So what is this ? pump up the basses and now people will perceive a nice kick drum ? Is it now me and the speaker over-expressing this ?
I don't get it.
So, referring to my previous statement "this is not about poor recordings as such", well, it IS. This-is-too-poor-to-listen-to.
bye

Now please (please ?) bear with me, because we need to understand what is happening. It is crucial to get that ...

Remember how I started out yesterday about this ? I told that I recalled that Sheffield Lab was great on the kick drums (throughout their recordings), but otherwise ? maybe not.
This "judgement" was from when I listened through my also great horn speaker with "horned" 1x15" plus subwoofer(s). This thinking was not specifically about this Track/Drum record, but general for their recordings. This one in specific I quoted my own texts from elsewhere yesterday, but this is not very important. What is, is this :

The speakers I now listen to (actually still the subject of this topic) do not stop at 27Hz (or actually long before that) and they don't use blurpy subwoofers which actually don't do a think other than adding punch (when tuned right). So, and I don't want to repeat it all over, but ... these go the most straight to 19Hz. This means that when a mixing engineers feels so happy to give you some additional (illegal !) punch and which JUST a compressor does (with the proper timing), I perceive that as, well ...
That I really could not tell whether I was listening to 3 toms or a kick drum. Now, you may tend to think I am exaggerating things but I really do not. Anyway, might you believe me then now you might understand the "unlistenable" better.
This, while with my previous speaker this was quite all right.

And so I think it can also happen that punch is added in order to let us perceive something like a kick drum better, because it does not anticipate an Orelo MKII much. You will get what I mean here.
So clear : What I perceive can be dead-wrong while you perceive it as very ok.
So done ?

Haha, not quite and this is about Ron Tutt being on track 5;

Where I drew my quotes from (compression etc. subject elsewhere), it was about the XRCD whatever version which was advised to me. Well, that went unnoticed back at the time, but yesterday I found I had another version. A "normal" one. Here Ron Tutt is on track 3.

Can I tell you that this normal version is only 11dB less compressed ? Now THAT makes a difference, I can tell you.

Nothing is bass heavy on this version and now attacks on the cymbals are audible which were completely lacking on the XRCD. Now it suddenly is a quite better reference.
It remains a dead thing again, and it is my guess that people who record drums do that especially in a deadened room.
The representation of the cymbals is still nowhere, but at least now it is listenable. But now the stupid thing :
No way it represents the kick drum well. That needs added punch ...

So what also remains is the sound of the sticking sticks, and I think this is compressor behaviour. At least this is how it was explained to me by a recording engineer. What also remains is that all hits sound the same because of it. So, snare, tom of various size or kick drum, it's all hit by the very same (sized) sticky stick. This, while at least the kick drum is hit by a soft "ball" and its attack should sound way more full because of it. But not so on this now better recording.

Watch the very first hit (it's on a tom) of this Ron Tutt track. You can hear the drum kit sing along for a small second and it even needs close listening. I told you, when I do that the tom itself already sounds over 10 seconds. TEN. It does so in reality and it does on the self recording. In this Ron Tutt I only heard this kit playing along at this first hit and for maybe a second and nowhere else in the track.

Can we now to some extend understand the unbelievable difference ? This will be in everything you know. Not only in drums. But at least this is how I call such an explicitly taken drum track "dead".

An also funny thing is, and I already noticed day before yesterday, when you after such an explicit drum recording listen to normal music, they all do better on the drums. I am serious. So STILL some fools are around who think they can improve on recordings and they do well on drums.
Not.

Peter
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« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2014, 11:52:23 am »

Hi Peter,

I find this a very interesting subject and am sending you my go-to drum reference track to see what you think.  If I am understanding what you mean by "sticking sticks" then this track most certainly does not have any of that and although the kick-drum is not a feature of the track I think you may find it interesting.

It is a recording made by Paul Klipsch of the Joe Holland Jazz Quartet in 1955 and recently remastered from the original 15ips 2-track Master tapes.  Apparently it is one of the first stereo recordings produced so I am interested in your opinion Peter...if they got it right almost 60years ago then why don't they get it right now? 

Ok, I know the answer to that but I still like to ask the question. Happy

Let me know what you think.

Regards,

Anthony

EDIT: For those interested I got the album from here.  It is track #11.
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« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2014, 12:36:42 pm »


Hey Anthony, looking forward to that !
I suppose there should be some "kick" in anything controlled (without dials) by Paul Klipsch. I didn't know this existed.

Read the Liner Notes with great interest, which maybe deminished somewhat after seeing on the last page that recording to DSD went through a Korg and next was converted to PCM by Saragon.
However, I suspect a poor quality already from that old tape, knowing that my own tape transfers also did not work out (all over lacking highs). But I hope not !!

Best regards and thanks,
Peter
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« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2014, 01:00:20 pm »

Oh dear. DSD to PCM via a software converter. It never ceases to amaze me how stupid some people are. They go to all that trouble to get the tapes, prepare them, set them up on the R2R machine... and then can't be bothered to take two transfers - one in 'pure PCM' and one in 'pure DSD'. This isn't difficult to do. I have the capability in the little 'studio' in my basement. And it's exactly what I do with my needle drops - once at 24/192 with a Pacific Microsonics Model Two and once at DSD128 with a Korg MR1000. (Incidentally, I use the MR1000 and not the MR2000 that they use because the latter has a cheap nasty power supply, and the former has a 12V input allowing me to use a high-quality linear PS.)

Hey Peter, did you ever make your home drum recording available to the rest of us to listen to? I know you're a little embarrassed about the playing (it was you and not Paul, right?), but if we promise not to laugh, it may be very educational for us to be able to hear what a drum kit should sound like.

Mani.
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« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2014, 01:08:56 pm »

Hi Mani,

I few posts back I "promised" to re-do the recordings now Paul is really making something of his drumming. I have an "as poor" ADC again, so it shouldn't be difficult. innocent
So I can keep on shouting about this all, but it doesn't tell much without putting up the example so I will do it. And if that 400 euro ADC messes up after all (previously it was a FireFace800) then I suppose I'll have to put up one of the existing ones (indeed "performed" by myself).

Thus, my blahblah really isn't sufficient ...

Regards,
Peter
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« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2014, 01:10:25 pm »

Peter, I was hoping you read the liner notes, they also give the specs of the recording microphones which were not great in the highs.

Mani, you would not be surprised to know that this HDTT crowd think that in general DSD has a slightly better sound than PCM, which may not be surprising considering how the get the PCM.  Still though, this album is one that I use when comparing good DSD dacs to the NOS1 and the NOS1 ain't been beat yet even with this little disadvantage:  dac quality still trumps music file format.


Anthony
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« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2014, 01:47:36 pm »


Quote
HDTT crowd think that in general DSD has a slightly better sound than PCM

At the risk of going  OffTopic it would be interesting to know what these "experts" think they are comparing. IIRC pure DSD does not really exist because it has to be (kind of) converted to PCM so the studio can work on it. The only "pure" DSD would be to record it direct not do any mixing etc and just play it back (like the old direct to disc) - that won't happen in real life. And all of that is before you even start to look at the "imperfectible" DSD as opposed to "perfectible" PCM as Stanley L puts it.

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« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2014, 02:38:34 pm »

Well Paul, that is not offtopic if we see that for a take as it was done with the Paul Klipsch record, DSD is just OK. So, especially because no mixing was applied, it can be taken from the tape (but which is not the master tape in this case !) which would be the same as recording it directly to DSD. But *that* hardly happens, so it is not plausible the (DSD) means is OK in general (exactly how you put it).

Notice that some go as far as recording to analogue, mix in analogue and then go to DSD. And next they say that no PCM conversion has been in order.
swoon Oh well ... swoon

Peter
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« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2014, 04:59:47 pm »

EDIT: For those interested I got the album from here.  It is track #11.

Anthony, THIS IS THE SH********T.
Ok, calm down.

Man, you really really don't know what is happening to you when you hear this track playing and right from the first hit you think HUH ?!?, this is me myself drumming there.

... but I guess all what happens is that FINALLY this sounds exactly the same ...
But SO surprisingly, just the exact same drum kit, somehow. But really, also the almost same playing with one stick on the rim + skin, the other stick hitting that stick. Heck, I'm flat on the floor.

So ... if anyone wants to hear how toms can sound, this is it. And so it DOES exist. But from 1955 ?

Cymbals too sound OK, but not 100% as I have it here. Why ? not completely sure, but I think something goes wrong in the highs itself. So, listen to the hits on the snare and you can hear it. Or the roffle towards the end, where all the highs mush up. And mind you, the cymbals towards the end measured 110dB when I just played it (which is exactly right/real).
Of course I looked at the frequency response in it and not sure how Mr Saragon envisions a DSD to PCM conversion, but if I were Weiss I would have left out the DSD noise. Well, something like that and beyond 80KHz. And some very steep peak at 52KHz. But alas and who cares. It is smazing anyway.

Kick drum is there too but underemphasized. Hardly used and when used not hard/loud. But level seems OK to me.

Summarized, when you hear this (and I think everybody can perceive what I like you to perceive) then you know what we're all missing ...
Maybe you won't perceive all the air from it (the open baffle thing with sufficient SPL) but you will see that this sounds totally different from what you ever heard through speakers.
But
I must be careful of course, because someone like Anthony already heard it too.

Anthony, thank you. I will get the whole album of course. Just totally curious how the other tracks will sound.
Super.

Peter

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« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2014, 06:53:46 pm »

Here we get an idea how ............ !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yet9KPR7wfw&list=TLuGJTr9KnBJDnSbqqV9TUFRfIhqK5h6Kz

P.S. The best I could find in my old stock until now.

http://www.amazon.com/Blind-Faith/dp/B000059T00/ref=ntt_mus_ep_dpi_1

Piece no. 6 - bass solo starts at 6min, drum solo at 9min.
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« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2014, 06:56:19 pm »

Hey Peter,

Bold text with stars... most probably you wanted to say: "Sheer Entertainment", right? Happy

And what about Juan's 'old' drum/cymbals suggestion: Count Basie / Dizzy Gillespie alb. "The Gifted Ones", Track #6, "Ow!"
(most pbbly you have the disc already)
 
Thks,
George
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« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2014, 07:32:54 pm »

Well well George,

It is funny, but I'm just into the third track of "Big Band Basie" (RR) and thought to write that possibly these kind of speakers hugely benefit from big bands. I don't recall Juan saying it, but he certainly is right.
I'm not quite sure yet how it works, but it feels related to recording from the larger distance and now the bigger room doing the work on the low end.

So ... yes
Thank you George.
Peter


PS: Tomorrow I am going to take some Jazz drumming lessons. Thank you Joachim. secret Happy
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - Oct 31, 2018 (2.10)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 10/20 cores) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 140.19  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2014, 08:50:19 pm »


PS: Tomorrow I am going .....

Hi Peter,
this video, listened to with acceptable near field monitors connected to the PC,  has a sound resolution of the drum kit (Tom Toms, Cymbals, Snares) which I can’t find on any CD. You can hear the stick hitting the cymbals prior to the sound coming  and the post-pulse oscillation of the Tom Toms, just what you criticised.

This CD from Dave Weckl sounds not bad.

http://www.amazon.com/Dave-Weckl-Band-Live-Plugged/dp/B0000C9JDR/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1396981776&sr=1-1&keywords=dave+weckl

My impression is that good recorded Live CD’s are presenting a better/natural sound than most of the studio recordings.

Joachim
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