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Author Topic: Bass Issue (Lack thereof)  (Read 12400 times)
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PeterSt
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« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2014, 02:40:58 pm »

Lee,

Quote
What should bass sound like? Ideally it should sound live. When you stand to the side of a live band and listen to kick drums, you feel them in the chest. I think this feeling should be evident in any hifi system as well, along with crystal clear but smooth highs, analog sound mids, vivid transients, etc. But like Robert Harley said once in his book, the kick drum is what gets your foot a tappin' (or something like that).

I have been reading your post(s) over and over, but I can't get any logical sense in my response. But here goes :

If you could only admit that at the Show there was a lacking bass. But you don't and I don't either.
So what's left is that something is broken, which you seem to be hinting at. But by all means I can not imagine how or where. And it probably won't help you that never anything broke anywhere so far (apart from soe tweakers literally blowing things).
I think I do see though that you seem to compare apples with oranges. That is, I see you use different playback software for the other DACs. Do I get this right ?

My quote above is for a reason and I like to stick to my previous suggestion :
If you perceive stumpin' bass etc. from all of those other DACs then that bass is not right. This is not in any defense and certainly not to tell that "thus" all other out there is wrong, but it is the only logical conclusion I have make out of it.
Read your own text again, and now please "know" that no kick drum will be able to spring from your speakers as how you want it / described it, unless the remainder of the bass is not right. And I know, you described that as detailed and stiff and etc., but it doesn't tell me much really. Just as that it won't tell you much when I describe how that bass should be when really stiff and blablblah. Right ?

So think back Lee. How many 10 inchers where there in those Surreal Sound speakers ? I didn't look it up but I'd say 4 at least, but maybe 6 or even 7. Now you count them and count yours too and let me know. But ahead of that :
When I compare my current Orelo MKII speakers containing 3x15" and a sensitivity like hell with my old speaker of 1x15" with also OK sensitivity but less, and I TELL you that no kick drum was able to come from the old speakers ... and which is sheer theory already ...
... then you tell me how any QB-9 can do it in good fashion.

Hey, my old speaker also used subwoofer support (2x) and still it could not work. But it can't because all is too poor and too little woofer surface.

So mind you, what you actually day (but not explicitly of course) is that all the theories (and/or my own findings) are completely wrong and all it takes is another DAC.
So I'd have to ask you : who will have the best chances here ? The one which for sure is able to squeeze out the best superb bass from Bose Milk packs after all, or the one which tells that this really is totally impossible unless you listed to a blurped bass.

You know what I will choose here.
And this now *has* to make any QB-9 the wrong one in my eyes - there's just nothing else to do.
But mind you, it is you who came up with the kick drum as that determing parameter. You *are* right on that you know and it is only that you don't recognize that it can not happen (with your speaker).

It will be too simplified, but think like this :
A kick drum as a surface (square inch). Notice that to my eyes this looks larger than a random "home" woofer.
Still agreed ?
Ok, so the size of it together with the cabinet will create a base frequency (this is around 38Hz bu kick drums too come in sizes). Now watch the kick and observe the amount of "length" the skin is pressed in. What shall we say ? 1 inch ? (could be too much and I can look for real if you want).

So one inch.
This one inch - spread over the surface of the skin - creates the sound pressure (SPL). Let's say that because of this spread the average spread is 0.5 inch.
Now we are getting somewhere because this could be the excursion of your woofer. Notice though that *if* this is the real excursion of the woofer it already heavily distorts. But never mind yet because you will not be able to recognize that (from the kick drum hit). Remember though, it does at this excursion, no matter how good the driver is.

But wait, because we have to incorporate the surface of the kick drum's skin in order to compare;
Do you feel it coming ?
Now you know, I don't need a calculator right away to see that my 3x 15" is larger than this one in itself larger than 15" kick drum skin. So I have a chance of reproducing the kick drum at the same excursion, but of course less because I have a large surface to create the SPL. Maybe it is on the limits of allowed distortion (THD), but I have a chance.
Now you.

So I anticipate 1x 12". Of course I don't know, but you will repeat the math (and in real good fashion might you feel things could be OK - haha). But no, you too don't need a calculator to see that this 12" is way smaller than the kick drum's skin. What shall we say ? 4 times smaller ? maybe it's even 6.

So 4 times smaller.
Now the excursion needed for the same SPL is 4x 0.5 inch and this is 2 inch.
Don't try this.

But Lee, still you virtually try to accomplish this. Just use something which implies a crazy low frequency output and with a lot of too much excursion you will have your kick drum.
And it will sound something like that, but no way for real. Nit the kick in the stomache thing, no matter you think it is OK. And you are allowed to. For a kick drum I mean.

But now the normal bass. The upright one. Also something like 38Hz.
A quite dangerous thing, because when used with a bow it is inherently square and it will be harder to observe for it being right or not. Anyway the same applies although the SPL needed for reality levels could be lower. So excursion could be less. But mind you, less than 2 inch which won't go ever. Now make that bass 6dB less in SPL and only 1 inch will be needed (yes, that simple). Allowed ? still not.
Then make it another 6dB lower and probably this is in the right (reality) direction. Now excursion is 0.5 inch.
Well, we started out with that, and distortion will be as huge as I already told about. But now you think this is a right bass. So if you do, all is fine.
But what is not so fine is that it is not true at all and now you hunt for a problem in a DAC (NOS1) which most 99,99% probably is not there.

Pffff
The only thing really left for me is how any QB-9 et all is able to produce so much more bass. I don't know the answer to that. But some times things are done quite easy and for that you only need to think back about your former Alpha. Now that had a fuzzy bass. So yes, it can be done (of course fuzzy is different from loud but now I claim that too loud = fuzzy for a QB-9).

I say it again : You started with the kick drum - not me. But I think I could proove over that that you can't be listening to any good bass. For that you need different speakers.

Now let's continue your further and original quest because I sure did not try to talk myself out of this. So what about the levels of te QB-9 ? something has to be odd there.

Peter

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Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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minzyman
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« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2014, 06:48:00 pm »

Hey Peter,

You never said anything about the active usb cable at the show and at the time I had not really been seeing much about them. I would assume that using a data only usb cable would be beneficial to maybe cleaner highs, but bass?

No, the show sound was not lacking for bass at all—it was turned way up on the Crown amp's two gain knobs. Heck no, the bass was pumping.


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« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2014, 07:24:46 pm »

Peter,

Just working thru your last response, I totally agree with you: if a dac is adding that much more bass detail than another one, something is not right.

Second, bloated, clumsy or too much bass is not the goal. But low-level detail in any song (IMO) is what gets the foot tapping and can make music more emotional, more engaging, as you can actually feel it. I referenced those two live examples, a church organ and the kick drum of a rock band. These are difficult to reproduce by any speaker, but not impossible. So perhaps we agree that there is a balance of bass with other higher frequencies, the ideal of which can be pleasing, engaging and natural to most listeners. Hard to describe in words though.

The Surreal speakers has 6 10" drivers in each speaker enclosure—and yet, the Raven ribbon tweeters still won out! We had to drop a sock over them to attenuate (and keep our ears from frying) as you remember. Personnaly I liked the 6 drivers in the bass enclosures. In so many rooms, bass (seems) harder to reproduce properly, as it is smeared and sucked out. Toole describes it in his book as the one thing (that is so bad in most rooms) that you should attempt to address it. So why not add a few more bass drivers? Seems like a solid approach to me. Or try 3 x 15" drivers.

Next sentence is not correct. I am not suggesting that your theories are wrong in any way, or that all it takes is a Dac to reproduce better bass. You know I am not suggesting this, but rather am just explaining my experience from the BAAS demo event at the house: trying to explain the problem and therefore effect an solution. The only variable we changed was the Dac that day. Then later we started swapping out usb cables as well. So why could this be? That is my point. Could it be the impedance/gain issue from the sac to preamp or amp? Could it be a setting in XX, as Pedal has suggested above? This is what I need to find out.

Your treatise on kick drum skin is logical. No way my single 10" driver can faithfully reproduce the kick drum. However I can get it to make a kick drum-like sound that is tight and gets the house rattling, if I so choose. I do find it pleasing sometimes to actually feel the bass in this way, depending on the track. Our neighbors growing up had a large church organ in their home (lower than kick drum, I know) and you could literally feel the bass vibrate the house (and the entire street). My speakers will pale in comparison, but they can get down to 30hz and can get the house rattling without creating audibly distorted bass. So this can still be pretty cool feeling. Whether it applies or denies your surface area logic or not, I don't know. But I can hear and feel it nonetheless.

So the goal is to find out what changes I need to make to XX and NOS1 to effect this low-level detail. That is the point of my post. My current XX/NOS1 sound seems as though a large room sickout is happening, there is much emphasis on voice and frequencies above this. But there is so much more detail that occurs below this 200-300Hz range that I am just not getting. Does the QB-9 achieve this by turning up the gain?

I need to explore a few other possibilities/configurations before posting back here.

/Lee

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PeterSt
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« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2014, 07:42:52 pm »

Ok Lee. Thank you for the elaboration.
I'll won't bug you until you're back. I hope you will find (out) something. But ask if you have a question.

Best regards,
Peter
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XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to *14/28* cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *14*/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = *1* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.19*  (max *10.19*) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *52* / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. *ET^2* Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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PeterSt
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« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2014, 08:45:46 am »

Lee, no I won't bug you, but this jumped back into my mind :

Having said this, I've heard a stock NOS1 vs. a Nick/Paul-modded NOS1 and I have to say the latter made the former sound thin and lacking in bass.

because I seemed not to have a real answer to this one from you :

Quote
Does the QB-9 achieve this by turning up the gain?

But the answer can easily be in that first quote, with the notice I spend a longer post on that one already. Re: Bass Issue (Lack thereof).
More importantly though, by now I forgot what I have been writing about a 100 times and this is how the more poor USB interface make the bass wayyy more "low". Btw this goes together with really attenuated highs, and everybody will appreciate it as for the better. But it is not.

So small information, may you have missed it back at the time :
When I started to work on the USB interface this "super bass" jumped at me but after a couple of days I got a braindamage from the blanketed highs and since I also measure ...
... I found what is all going on which such an asynch interface and determined that it was only bad for jitter etc. blahblah. So, this forum is still full of it, like that small quote from Mani actually is part of it (referring to a huge subject in itself).

All together Lee, I don't know how I missed it, but for way more bass it only needs a common "lousy" USB interface. Common means : I don't think anyone solved that, but it was in the NOS1 and this is how USB cables won't matter (but keep the topology the same when comparing).
The story is way longer again, like what Manu refers to is (and how I responded to that - see given link).

Anyway, I think or hope this can answer the question about the QB-9; just a poor USB interface with the emphasis on that this will be common and not QB-9 specific. And that too explains things you talked about.

Peter

PS: Small disclaimer : When I talk about "solved for the NOS1" then this is to be read is "way better solved for the NOS1" because solving it 100% takes a different approach; this is not important for in here, but I just don't like to speak untruths.
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W10-14393.0 - April 1, 2020 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to *14/28* cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *14*/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = *1* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.19*  (max *10.19*) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *52* / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. *ET^2* Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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