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Author Topic: Orelo MK-II's bass performance  (Read 15596 times)
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vrao
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« on: June 08, 2014, 09:04:07 pm »

Orelo MK-II's bass performance:
 grazy

I know this is where Peter is going to jump all over me.

 For reference: My room on prior placement had a 6dB dip in 50-55Hz range, a boost upto 20dB in the 15Hz range., otherwise smooth.

1. Tonality: accurate. Low distortion basically at work. It's just not boom boom boom, but the multitude tonality of bass can be experienced.

2. Bass weight: I took my time for this. First there is the break-in where in it had yet to develop. Secondly as somewhere Peter mentions, I thought it was not all that evident, feathery light. Then drums are played with proper umph, some records are bass shy I guess! Or recording error?

3. Bass localization: This is the fun part!  My experience as bass can be directional only 2D maybe 3D in good recordings, and it was with my prior speakers; but accurately localizing 3D bass is the interesting part. Low distortion at work with proper phase. This is in regards to an entire percussion ensemble.  How about detecting a bass square wave ..... Sure can do.

4: Room mode excitation:  speakers are very placement friendly, very little modal interaction. My experience so far is no treatments are necessary.

5: Ancillary findings: Yesterday I played a percussion ensemble album, and it was a bit strange feeling. There was a visual/sensory feedback (of the instruments) in the appearance of "energies" all over the sound stage. Never felt that before, starling dynamics top to bottom. Well I do know what it is ... synesthesia. 



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PeterSt
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« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2014, 10:42:13 am »

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I know this is where Peter is going to jump all over me.

Haha - of course I can only read this as "I am going to be so negative now that I can expect some".  But I don't see the negatives much and thus I don't understand this English "saying" ?

Btw VJ, I moved your post to a separate topic as you can see, assuming that you actually wanted to have it in a separate topic but did not know how to. On that matter, browse a board and chose the "New Topic" above the mouse arrow (picture below).

Edit : But I can also imagine (i often need to think twice) that you put your post on very purpose in this topic : Feel your Woofers ! Scheme 3-5. So people might at least look into that for "VJ Reference".

Peter


* NewTopic01.png (38.37 KB, 1039x265 - viewed 787 times.)
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« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2014, 11:22:45 am »

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as somewhere Peter mentions, I thought it was not all that evident, feathery light. Then drums are played with proper umph, some records are bass shy I guess! Or recording error?

With the notice that you (or anyone) can respond as he likes (like totally disagreeing) this is my reasoning :

First off, I of course promised that all would be different; not as what we are all used to. Maybe it doesn't need new mind setting, but it needs some learning about what could be going on.

First key is (or could be) your mentioned "low distortion" and by now you mentioned this more than once. Of course, this has been my whole excercise but as of course this is also how you yourself have learned to observe, actually knowing that it wouldn't go otherwise. So side note :


This too has been talked through fairly extensively by email and people are allowed to know that while I started to talk about THD and "standards for woofers which are out of bounds" this has only be the result of VJ telling me about this and THUS I wanted to do something about that. And explicitly so. Btw, nothing about satisfying VJ's needs, but anything which can be pointed out as wrong is a challenge for me.


What "no (audible) distortion" does is creating air in the regions where the frequencies play, instead of creating a pile of distortions which ALSO imply lower frequencies. Actually this is for a larger deal IMD (Inter Modulation Distortion) and when you observe this, this not only goes "right wards" in the spectrum (compared to the fundamentalS) but equally left wards. I have heard people call this sub harmonics which in my view do not exist.

The more low (frequency) you play into a driver which can not cope, the more this happens. But but but, this is about two frequencies at least or otherwise no IMD can be in order.
Now for fun think ZZ-Top.
How do those low keyed distortion guitars sound ? Well, like distortion and it is intended of course. But instead of the very low deep sound coming from them, you now hear feathery light air-air-air and such guitars suddenly show beauty. Art if you like. But the low keyed sound ?
And if you don't like ZZ-Top try Beastie Boys. That's even worse. Normally a totally FAT sound and now ? unlistenable because of too less weight in the bass. Nothing actually; I thought it was them of whom I told that they forgot to get themselves a bass guitar but probably it was some other band. Anyway, that.

Small problem : We are not used to that. No bands and recording engineers either. So listen to it through the monitors and all looks fine.
So recording error after all ?
It depends.

Once you are used to this sound - which in my view until otherwise proven is just the far better reality, you can start to hear which causes what; I several times gave the example of The Wall in normal (PF) version and in MFSL version. The difference ? the MFSL is not high passed for LP. Not that I could hear *that* a year ago - I just thought both versions were the same. But was also happened throughout time is that an album like The Wall became less interesting. How ? playback got better (say XXHighEnd). Less "low frequency information". Yeah, well ...
Until you hear the MFSL - then everything is back.

Now think carefully :
First less distortion implies less low frequency "data"
Next more low frequency data in the recording shows that.
but
Not so when your speaker can't do that and now easily thginking about the ~30Hz high pass applied. So leave that out and any normal speaker won't show suddenly more. Careful :

First the normally more distortiing speaker will show more LF from the 30Hz highpassed and secondly the not distorting speaker will show under 30Hz easily (Orelo MKII case).
Compensates ?

And that is the "problem". Hell no. Both LF exhibits are so totally different that we need to relearn a few things;

When LF is not there you won't hear it.
When IMD normally was there, you now won't hear that either (IMD will always be there I think but at way way more loe level);
When LF is there while it is not shown by a normal speaker, you most probably will perceive that as ambient information only. Notice : for normal instruments like a kick drum. This is The Wall MSFL (try the both and you will be shocked).
Otherwise only synthesizers will play clearly under 30Hz (up to DC if they like) so only that kind of music can show the sub low to begin with, were it for clear tones.

I could also summarize like this :
When it is not about synths the main difference perceived will be in the ambient information BUT it has to be in there (not high passed). So VJ, your drums.

Obviouslyl we can add 20dB of bass easily. But you can imagine what will happen to your drums. They won't be much real now. But ZZ-Top starts to work like you are used to, already because of distortion, but also because of more LF energy (not that it will be in proper balance, but alas). So ...
The only thing justified in my view is highering the LF output, but cut off beyond maybe 30Hz again. Now those drums will still play too loud but won't shake the room because of 20Hz equally loud output.

Hey, this latter chapter is all nonsense of course but it hopefully explains even better what is going on.

Please keep in mind : This is my reasoning (nothing scientfic or school book).
Peter
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« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2014, 12:12:52 pm »

Funny... When I got my speakers in 2010, I was shocked the first times, because there was obviously a lack of LF and the same with the HF. It took me a few months to get used to it, but everybody that was passing by and listening to music through my sound system was perceiving the same thing: lack of LF.

Strangely enough, on certain recordings where I was expecting more bass (from my souvenirs), there was less. On other where I never really heard LF, what I was hearing was more profound and clean. I could hear tones and that was new to me.

Each day I was talking to a friend and saying "I don't know if I will get used to this sound"... I believed that the components I got were at least slightly better that what I was using before. Even so, I bought 2 subs to compensate for this lack of LF in many recordings and it brought back some of what I was used to. But sometimes I wasn't sure if it was for the better.

I have to add that when I discovered this, I had my Bryston BDA-1 (I still have it, but I don't really use it, except when my NOS1 will be between Peter's hands for its upgrade to NOS1a).

Now I can't say that this is perfect nor that this is what is happening here, but at least I know that the sound I hear now is a lot cleaner than what I was used to before.

It always surprises me when I read that a dac brought more LF in someone's present. Maybe there are more than one explanation for this.

I have grown since with the feeling that more bass is not necessarily for the better, except for what we read here.

I guess that "everything matters"...

Alain

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« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2014, 02:52:16 pm »

"First less distortion implies less low frequency "data "

This answers a part of the question. However, 2 weeks ago I auditioned a pair of speakers ($85K), which used servo subs, placed sideways. There was a strong "boominess" to the bass, kind of overhang with the notes, which implies some room mode interaction. Or may be it's the distortion you are talking about. Edit: this is the typical presentation of bass in speakers. Many would hear this and think nothing is wrong.

Also I believe it's the clarity of the OB bass, as one one gets used to it, easy to hear issues with ported or closed subs.

Edit: Human bass perception is not completely studied, and my experience is that we are much more sensitive to distortion in the low key registry than previous thought. From the prior link of FM curves, it is seen, these curves were made with headphones, where in bass response can cause inaccurate pressure pain response in the ear canal, and this is still bit of a controversy. Adding to this is the multitude of stereophonic or monophonic bass generators (aka subs) like the one I mentioned above, where in the complexity of room and transducer/IMD distortion become a dominant factor. Also notice, the multitude of direction these are placed, for convenience and design. This prevents the forward (localizing) edge to be accurate enough for the ear.
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« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2014, 04:19:00 am »

Hate to derail a thread,

So

"the harmonic energy added by the non-linearity deceives the ear into thinking that there is more bass present than there really is"

From:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/audioengine-2-powered-loudspeaker-measurements

This summaries part of the issues about bass with small woofers or high distortion subs. The ear uses pressure as the reference to detect loudness, non-linearities in the bass cause the perceived loudness and false bass perception. A relatively smooth low end response can theoretically cause the perception of low bass considering the ear can only feel pressure differences. Only a initial response is felt, and the ear/brain quickly acclimatizes to the "smooth" pressure response.



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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2014, 10:47:58 am »

Quote
Hate to derail a thread,

You mean because you originally put this in Mani's topic ?
Yep, good thing.

Quote
The ear uses pressure as the reference to detect loudness, non-linearities in the bass cause the perceived loudness and false bass perception.

It is not as easy as this I think.
OK, nobody is going to read this :

http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidgriesinger.com%2Fasa05.pdf&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNEYYTc4mRmxDYz2uXlrSpYoJJCnQA

... but I know you already did VJ. So ... interesting.
But to me almost all in this article looks wrong, starts at the wrong angle, uses the wrong solutions which are impossible anyway, but STILL indicate the base problem (like in your quote) which also could be wrong-ish.

First this :
When a low frequeny wave is modulated by its own distortion (or other higher frequencies for that matter), there's less "individual" SPL changes. And, when a single nice undistorted frequency is there, there's clear SPL change per cycle.
This is just so you know, and might you have bought that SPL meter I 'd advise everyone (but especially MKII owners) then you can easily see it.

Side note : Loudspeakers will not create a general pressure change in the room (although closed cabinets to some extend will (DC offset like) but possibly so minor that it can't be measured. So the SPL as such is a continuous change of air pressure which average out after one cycle to normal air pressure.

It is important to understand this, because that article suggests nothing about that while it is ALL about that. So this is nothing about initial responses ... it is there all the time. I can hear it totally easily, just as my SPL meter shows it (the lower the frequency the more easily visible).

Because this is physically so, it also is so that we human can perceive it. But of course, first find the music which shows it, which starts with the undistorted sine or almost sine or modulated which so much higher fruquencies that the SPL changes keep in good shape.

So yes, I am ignorant as hell as usual, but I guess that happens when empirical finding is mapped on to so called science, but where science uses the wrong "material" to begin with.
Remember, I do not suffer from standing waves the slightest, so now that article can go into the trashbin for that reason alone.

Intermezzo :
When Paul (scroobius) was here the other day, we discussed the directivity of bass. Of course from our (his) known perceptions that was and it was just a subject during a glass of beer. But Paul was so wrong (the world is so wrong) and I showed him with an album he owns himself. I pointed out in advance that we should not listen to the metal of the upright bass which is fooling and that the focus should be on the sustained low frequency (what is that ? 38Hz or so) and when the sound is not too square because that too implies higher frequencies which are easy for us humans (for localization).
Of course Paul was floored instantly.

Since the above is the real truth the whole of the article is not and the conclusions of it (by a reader like us) are also moot.
What the writer tries to do is implying localization by false means (uhh, what I *hate* all that !) while all is already working in the first place. But use some proper gear.

Of course the article isn't the subject, but the (wrong) conclusions of it is. What sure *IS* true though is that room modes can f*ck up. So of from there canecellation (but also a kind of warbling tone distortion) emerges, then yes. But it is still not related to our incapability of of perceiving the lower frequencies because they can only go by SPL changes. Thos changes are physically there at continuous tone and I not only can easily "hear" them ... if someone does not hear them he is deaf.

Moral : Sort out the room when not perceived. And this is not done by positioning speakers asymmetrical.

Btw notice that we tend to let blend the sound - but now low frequencies by toeing in. So a sort of exagerrated toeing out can already help. This can be perceived as "oh, but now left and right for bass does not blend !". Yeah ? well, if that happens this is because it IS not firing at the exact same time. So that too, to my humble opinion, is not to be solved by deliberately "mix" the both to one LF mush.

Side note again :
I was experimenting with someone the other day who suffered from some strange sensation (I use the medical term now, so negative) which clearly could be dedicated to the SPL hammering all the time. Think 32 times etc. per second. Toeing in removed the sensation plus some perceived "hole" in the middle was removed.
But this tells all, right ?

Summarized :
I am ignorant, yes, but all I do is judge reality. It is important because might science think we can only perceive the initial SPL change (or attack or how to call that thing which does not even exist) then I tell science this is not right.
What also won't be right is that such bass is more light BUT BUT BUT I now talk about the undistorted bass which is not modulated to begin with. This means : listen to the music which can do it, or, music which contains the lower frequencies to begin with (both are not the same). And this I told about before : this takes really really much experience and I too learn more of it each day (play more new music that means).

I say it again : feel your woofers. You will be able to tell easily (if you start doing this regularly) which music does it and which does not. Still, both types may audibly be perceived the same which means that your room is the issue.
If you feel nothing there is nothing. If you feel excursion of ~3-4mm both ways, your bass will exhibit something like 90dBSPL. If you don't hear that at the listening position, something is not right.

Get that (Radioshack) SPL meter. You'll learn so much from it.

Peter

PS: VJ, this is unrelated to your post, but I am just thinking about it : When you put the speakers to the wall opposite of the TV you will "enable" longer waves because now they can go upstairs so to speak. This is not symmetrical of course, but I think it can do a few things.
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« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2014, 03:32:57 pm »

From that article I only gained some insight into localizing low frequency.

Here is the frequency response to Harbeth. I think almost all of their models show similar curves.

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/harbeth_30_domestic/

This slight rise in dB in the low end might compensate for some cancellation "generally" found in listening rooms, and inconsistencies in rooms response. But the general though process might be more is better?

P.s A 2dB rise did give a good improvement in the bass.
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« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2014, 04:51:32 pm »

When the room cancels a frequency, making that frequency louder will cancel it linearly more. So that does not help. However, it will me more messy (in the room) because of the higher output.

What you can see nicely in those plots is how at 50Hz already spades of audibile distortion is going on. So if you look here : http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/test_loudspeakers.htm
and the explanation of "Chart 3" you can see my determined limit of 3% and how that is equal to 30dB of difference between the signal and the distortion level. If you now look at the first measurement plot of THD+N you can see that that this 30dB is reached at 90dB and that the bass/woofer output is only 5dB down there (see screenshot below at the muose pointer). This is at ~65Hz. So speaker shows that easily especially when we see that the output at the higher frequency is easily 5 dB lower than the left part of the plot, hence the 65Hz is output as high as e.g. 5KHz.
More downward in frequency it only gets worse, but notice that the output also drops (so distortion gets worse, but it is hard to say whether audible because the signal level itself drops significantly as well). But also notice it can be really bad because the measurement is just not taken under 50Hz.

Compare this left part with the MKII line;
Output drops as well (at 19Hz) but THD always stays under that 3% (and that is the sheer reason *why* the drop off).

Side note : It is strange to just take 90dBSPL as a standard for measuring because it (to me) shows destruction while nothing tells that these speakers are made for that output level (and now notice my 88dBSPL ...).

I think things may be a lot more clear now if you only accept that it is the harmonics (distortion) you will hear largely from such speaker; not that rising level towards the low end ... (which better could have been a dropping one - understand ?).
Peter


* WooferTHD02.png (19.69 KB, 192x387 - viewed 571 times.)
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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2014, 04:36:14 pm »

Harbeths are thought to have the typical British sound. If one compares it's sound (ported) with anything such as Naim (ovator series, sealed?), it's easy to hear distortion. The woofer has a subtle muffled and ill defined signal, almost such that the bass is not controlled. Ofcourse it's easy to notice once you compare head to head.  These were/are used as reference recording monitors.

Btw when searching for ATCs distortion specs, found this:

http://www.transaudiogroup.com/atc/scm0-1-15asl-subwoofer.shtml
"Do not expect to be "knocked down" with huge quantities of bass. Much of what we think is massive bass is really just loads of distortion at 200Hz to 300Hz! Sometimes this distortion can approach 40 to 50% of the total sub output!"

Pretty much summarizes what's been said about the Oreleo MK-II 
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« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2014, 07:11:43 pm »

Not that I understand what kind of advertisement this is from the distributor (as it seems). You could say it is inconsistent as hell, you can also say it is honest. But maybe that sells with the combination of both ?

Nice example VJ.
Peter
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« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2014, 09:57:10 pm »

Lol ..... If you look at it that way ... prankster
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