First impression of the NOS1a (and Orelo)

[Arjan]

Hello all,
Last Sunday evening we had our first impression of the NOS1a at Peters home. My family and me have enjoyed the hospitality of Peter and his family that evening. Special thank you to Ciska and Paul! We know now who is the better drummer! Luckily the worse drummer is so well gifted in other areas. Although The Netherlands is a small country we discovered this nice region around Oene (Epe) again.
During the meal we talked about our jobs and I learned also Peters honest passion in that area.
And Ciska the meal was delicious!

Off course we listened to music via the NOS1a and the Orelo speakers. I learned some new music and passed the test! Also Peter learned some new music he already had in his possession. Because we could listen to music we were familiar with also my children enjoyed it.

I was able to NOT fall in love with the Orelo speakers. And I am happy with that, because they will never fit in our listening room (=living room) And buying a new home for speakers will never pass the board.
I think they are speakers you have to learn listening to, but they are really good. It is like falling in love, not at first sight, but you have to learn them better, and you will see that they have the best character and soul there is. That is good, I know from experience that a speaker that gives you a first WOW effect will be hated after 2 weeks. And off course the whole setup is so different from my own, like the size of the room to name one. Yes they are really good, that was proven by the live drumming recordings we heard. What I really liked was the reproduction of voices!

Peter is already using his new filter in xxhighend. He did one switch back to the old, I did not know that but he asked me what was different. For me the new filtering is the better one, in one word its cleaner! But I know of people who will be able to write a long essay about this.

Our main reason to be there was, picking up a new NOS1a! Yes, we have it.

Later to day I will write my first impressions with it at home. It is not an upgraded NOS1! So I can not write about the upgrade. Sneak peek: It is good, even after just 1 day!

kind regards, Arjan

[CoenP]

Our main reason to be there was, picking up a new NOS1a! Yes, we have it.

Later to day I will write my first impressions with it at home. It is not an upgraded NOS1! So I can not write about the upgrade. Sneak peek: It is good, even after just 1 day!

kind regards, Arjan

Hi Arjan,

Congrats, you'll be probably the first to have one at home. Peter probably warned you, but if the 1a behaves anything like the NOS1, then you'll be in for some burning-in roller coaster the next month!

Enjoy,

regards, Coen

[vrao]

Hey Arjan,

I just wanted to let you know, my first impression on the MK-II was just the same. It felt very ordinary (nothing special)  ... What was Peter raving about?, live with them for a while, then slowly you feel it's virtues grow. More specifically it does not have audible distortion/enhanced dynamics (these are loudness cues with higher order harmonics, such as the amps clipping or the speaker distorting), which can as you say cause a "wow effect" in the beginning, but your ears will later tell you something's wrong.
Previously, when discovering music before, I would listen to less than one minute of a song or few songs on CDs for sampling, now, I tend to listen to the entire album.

Congrats on your 1a, I'm looking forward to your impressions.

[manisandher]

Well, mine are now up and running. But I will not say a word about the sound until:
a) I get my NOS1a from Peter (probably early next week)
b) the speakers have had a good time to burn-in

But here's a pic...

Mani.

[christoffe]

Well, mine are now up and running. But I will not say a word about the sound until:
a) I get my NOS1a from Peter (probably early next week)
b) the speakers have had a good time to burn-in

But here's a pic...

Mani.

Hi Mani,

nice to see, but

no carpets in the room?


Joachim

[Gerard]

Well, mine are now up and running. But I will not say a word about the sound until:
a) I get my NOS1a from Peter (probably early next week)
b) the speakers have had a good time to burn-in

But here's a pic...

Mani.

Congratulations!!  Nice... 

[manisandher]

Congratulations!!  Nice...

Thanks. They are, aren't they?

no carpets in the room?

Yep, no carpets. This is totally 'by design'. I find any carpets or soft furnishing deaden the sound. Without these things, the room has just the right amount of 'life'.

Mani.

[Stanray]

Wow, I really like the finish! 

Birds-eye maple??

Regards,
Stanley

[CoenP]

Congrates with the new speakers!

They look neither big nor obtrusive in your room.

regards, Coen

[christoffe]

They look neither big nor obtrusive in your room.

regards, Coen

Hi Mani,

this was my first impression too. Special adaption for your room? This size has a high WAF.
http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=2921.0

------------------------

Did you find the optimal acoustic position for the speaker already?.

Joachim

[Arjan]

Hi all,

Mani, congrats with the Otelos. They look very nice!

First the NOS1a! Yesterday I let it burn-in, just one day....I know that is nothing.
Today I had some time to listen, and it is very good already! It is a better DAC then the replaced NAD M51 with audiophilleo 2 spdif converter. How much better, difficult to say the sound character is not changed, just a bit better in all areas. The NAD M51 was not bad at all, especially with my xxhighend pc that is powered by linear psu's. But it looks like a pc on an intensive care with all the leads going in and out.

But as Coen already stated the burn-in rollercoaster must be finished before I can make final conclusions.

One thing I checked Today (maybe to early as well) is there a difference in SQ depending on the pc used. I made a new fanless pc (hdplex case) and linear psu (hdplex). It is a low power i7 so less powerfull then the xxhighend pc. I run xxhighend on it without any special settings like minimized OS or playback drive. I compared it with the xxhighend pc that has all possible features active. And (wispering) I hear very small differences, the fanless pc sounds a bit leaner and more restless in difficult music parts. So at this moment I still prefer my xxhighend pc.

Peter, on the fanless Pc I use the xxhighend -e version, not on the xxhighend pc, might that be the reason? Do you have some hints for other possible reasons? Or just wait untill I have done this test again.

I will first burn-in the NOS1a for a couple of weeks and do this test later on again!

And with the fanless pc I also really like the SQ!

Kind regards, Arjan

[PeterSt]

Hey Arjan,

Peter, on the fanless Pc I use the xxhighend -e version, not on the xxhighend pc, might that be the reason?

Of course when you swap from the one PC to the other there's more burn-in on the DAC by then. Haha.
But no, I don't think that anything has changed. The only real subject can be the new filtering but in your (-e) version that has been shut off.
Keep us posted.

Because we could listen to music we were familiar with also my children enjoyed it.

Maybe we must be careful when children of ~15 of age start to overdo the behaviour of their fathers up to the fathers utilizing the children to confirm what they maybe hear themselves. At some stage I winked to the women outside to let peek into your all behaviour - something worked.

But about that, you can see how fragile things are. Like with Sibelius (wasn't that Opus 26 ? haha); you hardly will have (explicitly) noticed, but what was that according to your daughter ? saltless. "So what" you could think. But I heard it too. So I flipped the F-M switch at the back of the speakers so that now the 1K-4K region was lifted one step. Remember ? you asked "what did you do". But did you notice the right away different behaviour of your daughter ? suddenly even Opus 26 worked. She now moved on the way the music was intended and was suddenly involved ...
So fragile things are.

But it is also about the totally innocent remarks from those with the somewhat less knowledge I always enjoy. Hard to explain to others, but if your wife - clearly not all *that* interested - says "but at home it is always so in your face" then our "system owners" response is easily "but we listen way more close" (smaller room). Done.
But not done, because that should not happen anyway. Or at least not because of that reason.
There wasn't enough time to set up in-depth discussions, but I am sure we could have deliberated quite a lot over how we "system owners" (always proud about it) should observe better our children and especially those who are not much interested in the first place - and thus are more easily disturbed about our volume setting ... our partner. So if our wife tells us things sound harsh, we better take that for granted and try to do something about it.

Anyway what I liked the best is how children of that age can be involved with music and I'm afraid that a "hey, what do you think - look in the midst of what they grow up !" isn't the complete answer. Explicitly involve them (like you do Arjan) seems key though and at least I noticed that when I only one time ask Paul to listen for me to something (could be noise) he will forever come back on it when necessary ("hey dad, I hear noise today !"). So in my view there is a "helping" part in children which is mighty important and when children can help their parents in orders of "parent just can't themselves" then children might go all the way. This is not weeding the garden because you can do that yourself just the same.

OK, this was a bit too deep maybe, but let's say I am jealous somewhat. And maybe I learned a few things ...

Hey, welcome to the club !
Peter

[PeterSt]

Arjan, also look here : Re: NOS1 Upgrade contains ....

[manisandher]

STOP PRESS : STOP PRESS : STOP PRESS

My NOS1a ('white sheep') has arrived home. VJ, and anyone else commenting on the sound of the Orelos can just stop until they have a NOS1a connected up. This has taken things to a totally different level. I used to think that XX was the best bargain in hifi, but I now unreservedly revise that to the NOS1a. For me, this is the end game for a DAC. I'll post more detailed thoughts later.

I'm going to hold off from commenting about the Orelos for a while longer to let everything burn in a little more. Nick and Paul are due to come over on the 22nd, which might be a good time for the 3 of us to share our thoughts.

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Next up could be a new filter.

haha

[vrao]

Yo Mani,
Congrats dude!!
Even though your comments sounds a bit harsh, I'll take it with a grain of salt, afterall we are all a bit crazy!
Mine might take a while ... so you "will" hear from me again 
Afterall Peter's ravings were with the NOS-1 for about a year now
Looking forward to your impressions!!!
Cheers,
VJ

[manisandher]

Hey VJ, sorry, didn't mean to sound in any way harsh towards you. Thanks for accommodating my over-enthusiasm.

Strangely, my comments were almost directed more to myself than anyone else. You see, until today I've been using my Pacific Microsonics Model Two (with my other NOS1 still with Scroobius) and the difference between that and the NOS1a is just huge. The former makes the Orelos sound pretty ordinary, irrespective of F-M or whatever. But with the NOS1a, things just start falling into place. Interestingly, more so low down than anywhere else - there's now real LF energizing the room. Although to be fair, the whole sound is transformed. From recollection, there was always a difference between the NOS1 and the PM2. But this difference is now a gulf with the NOS1a.

More later...

Mani.

[vrao]

Hey Mani,
No worries bro...
I suspect 1a is a huge step up considering both you and Peter are smittened by it.
Good to hear your progress..
Vj

[manisandher]

Previously, when discovering music before, I would listen to less than one minute of a song or few songs on CDs for sampling, now, I tend to listen to the entire album.

Yep, this is exactly what I'm experiencing. (Almost missed the start of the Brazil/Croatia match because of it.)

Mani.

[manisandher]

Since receiving my 'white-sheep-with-golden-a' back yesterday afternoon, I've been almost afraid of playing around with any XX dials, just in case I can actually still hear a difference. Well, this morning I took the plunge, and...

... phew, they really seem to make absolutely no difference whatsoever. SFS from 0.5 to 2.0 to 120.0 - no difference. Clock res from 0.5s to 10s to 'nothing' - no difference.

I can't describe in words how happy this makes me. Finally, finally, we're rid of the influence of the PC on SQ, and can actually use it as it was intended - a wonderfully flexible and incredibly powerful tool.

All this because of Peter's love of a challenge. Man, if you were here right now, I'd kiss you.

Mani.

[manisandher]

I'd really like to write something about the sound of the NOS1a. But what to write? The only thing that really jumps out is the sheer 'musicality'. I mean, instruments don't just sound 'clear' now (they did before) but actually very beautiful. They shimmer and resonate in sympathy to the music. Weirdly, I can almost see the colour and grain of their wood (or shine of their metal). I don't mean to say that these cues are embedded in the music - of course not. But it's almost as though my mind is now free of doing any unnecessary processing making sense of the sound and can rather drift and wonder about the other elements of the musical experience.

Sorry, probably not expressing myself very well.

Mani.

[manisandher]

OK, final quick thought for now. If you have a NOS1 already and have not put yourself on the list for the NOS1a upgrade, do it right now. It's a total no-brainer.

Mani.

[PeterSt]

But it's almost as though my mind is now free of doing any unnecessary processing making sense of the sound and can rather drift and wonder about the other elements of the musical experience.

Sorry, probably not expressing myself very well.

But something like that *is* happening. And I guess we should ask VJ for the real "connection" ... he might not know at this moment, but he will find out ...

To me, without the real knowledge, we can compare our brain to the CPU and all (PC) around it; when it has to do other things besides audio processing, that creates noise and it influences its given main task (audio processing).

Side note : I am not saying this because of seeking explanations because you come up with this Mani - I just encountered it myself and wonder ...

The example of being able to get used to watching WC football (or however it's called in the various countries) up side down is in the area of what will be happening; it needs (huge) adaption but can be done and in the end you are used to it. Maybe though "struggle" remains when the ball goes to the ground automatically which as how you see it would still be wrong (because you see it fall upwards) but in the whole picture it wouild be consistent. Still processing remains needed because it is not right really.

I also think that our brain may be able to do few multi threading (multi processing) but not all that much (but just guessing).

Here is what was my very first observation at listening to this :
(it's a kind of shocking)

I mean, instruments don't just sound 'clear' now

With this at hand - and possibly it is no coincidence that you mentioned it Mani - I played a first album of my ever "beloved" ambient test-sh*t. Well, it must have been at track 3 that unconsciously I thought track 1 must be in a loop. Were we really at track 3 ? So I started to pay attention and hmm, a clear difference between that track and a next one. So no loop.

I was doing the same as always, which especially means something else than listening to music. Talk some, cook some, beer some.

Then I started a next album, and of course I was placeboed by things being possibly wrong. All was electrically different but in a way anything could happen. Not exactly sure how, but I was pretty sure that this next album was the same as the previous one. However, I wasn't sure and probaly was on to the fridge for a next beer and since I was merely interested in the beauty I heard I let it go (again). Yes, why not relisten to the same for better observation (with thus no explicit listening at hand).

But it wasn't the same album. I explicitly checked later because Logging was on anyway.
So

Mind you, this is not The Beatles with super clear melodies and lyrics, so try to envision that such a thing can happen anyway.

The next day I was thinking this over. I recall that I even started out with the same album I started out with the day before - just to check what was going on. And this was/is my thinking :

Before there was always very explicit jumping out of particular things. Hard to give examples, but think of a fly buzzing from left to right in a most explicit way. Emphasized things. And yes, notice that with this kind of music these "tricks" happen all over. It is actually of great interest and this is why I like this kind of "music". But it also is usually on the edge or maybe just over. Anyway, because of on the egde it jumps out. It characterizes the track and it is how you recall it from the last time played. Just thinking of an example in more normal music : thunder. So a track could contain thunder and you know it is in there and actually wait for it. And when the thunder does not appears you are totally confused. Did I miss the track ? is it the next one then ? Anyway :

In my vision all now blends in the meant whole. Still, it can hardly be so that thunder is not there any more (about it being in or out of the cues). But something else happens. Like the music now telling you that thunder will be coming (classical is good at such things) and when it finally strikes, well, you are not surprised. And for that reason it doesn't even occur much. It belongs to it. Has been blended in.
In what ?
In what or by what - but your mind.

Nothing jumps out because no processing is needed to render it; Render something which is not quite right. Or which can't be. Or does not fit. Or shows harmonics which don't belong for/to what you are used to.
Maybe that does not sound bad as such, but at least your brain puts the focus to it for additional processing ?

Peter

[vrao]

Guys,
Edit: sometimes a morning does of coffee works wonders .... So

"I guess we should ask VJ for the real "connection"

Ofcouse I have an answer, at least a part of it ...

Lower order auditory pathways are pretty much a reflex action. This is the defense mechanism from millions of years of evolution. Near instantaneous, for fight or flight. This has been perfected by evolution itself, and we can all pat ourselves on the back, and say we are on the forefront of this technology. Those who didn't probably got buried under a stampede of wooly mammoths I guess .....
Stereo reproduction fails in eliciting this pathway naturally, and causes listener fatigue. If this does not pass, what follows thro with the rest of the music is not processed as real. When one does get thro this gateway in the natural fashion, it can open doors to a multitude of higher order brain functions (edit: not the same for localization), which is very complex.
Anyways Mani, you reflect my experience with a very strong visual feedback to the music .... Borderlines .... synesthesia
I think we are well beyond sound stage, tone recognition ..... the usual audiophile stuff,   with higher order processing. Now we are seeing music as a whole, like the artist intended. Music as a portrait!

Happy listening
VJ

[manisandher]

Next up could be a new filter.

I've just been playing around with HQPlayer. This is the only other player I'm aware of that allows up to 24/768 to be fed to the NOS1(a). What's really interesting about this player is that it has a bunch of filters and noise-shaping tools to try. With the NOS1a and the Orelo speakers, the different sounds of these filters is easily heard.

To cut a long story short, I still prefer the sound of XX's Arc Prediction to any of the filters in HQP. The two 'polynomial' filters in HQP have a similar sort of sound to AP, but not quite as 'full'. But some of the other filters in HQP have a lot more LF energy than AP, with a softer mid and high end. With the Orelos, this is quite nice though obviously not as accurate as AP.

I would love a filter that sounds essentially like AP, but that has a weightier (but still accurate) bottom end. So Peter, when's the new XX filter available?

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Hey Mani,

I would love a filter that sounds essentially like AP, but that has a weightier (but still accurate) bottom end.

So, we can work this out en public. And let's say that we both should be careful; some may lose some may win. And it is literally about that in my opinion. So if you have an example album/track for me I can try to work it out from my side; I will tell you whether I have it and if not you can (please) send it to me.
Anyway I think this should be educational (not only for me and/or you).

Peter

[manisandher]

So if you have an example album/track for me I can try to work it out from my side

OK, let's go for track 3 (September) on 'Sephyra' by Artemis. I have the 24/44.1 FLAC which I've sent you a link for downloading.

This is a very clean recording. With 16x AP (yes, I still prefer double octo) it's a bit too lean low down. With some of the HQP filters, the balance is perfect... but the overall sound way too soft, with a clear softening of transients.

Mani.

[manisandher]

Thanks for the insight VJ. Very interesting stuff.

Stereo reproduction fails in eliciting this pathway naturally, and causes listener fatigue.

It's funny - I never seem to get listener fatigue on a mediocre system. Only on a 'pretty good' system. I think with the former, my brain knows immediately that it's a simple reproduction and doesn't even bother trying to make anything out of it. But on a good system, I think the brain is uncertain whether it's a reproduction or is real and therefore the extra processing kicks in. Of course, this is pure speculation on my part.

For their part, the Orelos are scarily real with some stuff.

Mani.

[juanpmar]

Hey Mani,

Congratulations on your new sound, I hope you enjoy it and I hope that we, the ones that are on the list for new NOS1a, can enjoy at least a part of that sound.
Are you using the cables that I sent you?

I see you're following the World Cup. For us, Dutch and Spanish, today is the day. May the best win! (I hope it's Spain hahaha). Well, lets play fair: Good luck also to the Oranje!

Juan

[vrao]

Hey Mani,
Thanks for your feedback.
It's difficult to address specific things on the web, with all angles covered.
Localization what I'm talking Bout is a reflex process, it does not go to your higher brain, this is the one that will make you jump instantaneously, cause chills etc.
Some stereo systems magnify errors more than others,  and therefore failure of acceptable stereo illusion as you said, higher order (edit: for localization) processing kicks in. There are multitude of indicators, and some are rejected at phase 1, you can say.

[Jud]

Hey Mani,

I would love a filter that sounds essentially like AP, but that has a weightier (but still accurate) bottom end.

So, we can work this out en public. And let's say that we both should be careful; some may lose some may win. And it is literally about that in my opinion. So if you have an example album/track for me I can try to work it out from my side; I will tell you whether I have it and if not you can (please) send it to me.
Anyway I think this should be educational (not only for me and/or you).

Peter

I was just listening to "Love in Vain" off the Stones' "Stripped" (wonderful mostly acoustic version) last night and wondering if you had it, Peter.

[PeterSt]

OK, let's go for track 3 (September) on 'Sephyra' by Artemis. I have the 24/44.1 FLAC which I've sent you a link for downloading.

This is a very clean recording. With 16x AP (yes, I still prefer double octo) it's a bit too lean low down. With some of the HQP filters, the balance is perfect... but the overall sound way too soft, with a clear softening of transients.

Yeah, nice one;

Listened to it and had some kind of verdict ready and then 20 minutes later I thought of what I forgot about : listening to the new filter here. So, listened again, now through AP (16x).
Yes, there is a difference;

At first I thought it was the bass making the difference, but after re-listening to the new filter I don't think it is that. But a bit difficult to explain, or maybe you recognize it Mani;

The highs in normal AP are relatively "on/off" - a bit like the Silverstone card emphasises. This though makes the bass underwhelming. The highs in the new filter are more. But not so much on/off (call that distortion if you like). So more smooth.

The first answer I had ready was this one :
There is something not completely right with this recording;
The profound low frequency you hear is on estimate 70-80 Hz (maybe 60Hz because it varies) and in itself nothing is wrong with that (I wouldn't want that higher in level either). But then there's this DC-like "hits" which are at too much of a distance of the remainder. Read : this looks like ambient response (recording room response) while the base of it is not there. So I tried my very best to hear a kick drum (which would be the logical explanation for such a response) but ... do you hear that ? I don't.

Then I started typing this post and realized that this is 24/44.1 and recalled that only a few days ago I tried all of those I have here and they are all wrong. So maybe this one too (taken from a DVD or something, perhaps).

Feel your woofers to understand what I mean - you can actually feel it DC-like going out and in at hits (maybe DC Offset of the NOS1(a) shows it.

No one wins. But I don't think this is a good example.
Peter

[PeterSt]

I just put up a "working" album, and then with kick drum hits - apart from the larger excursion - you feel a frequency within that hit. And now I also hear a kick drum.

But feel free to try (both) other examples. And don't forget : when that DC-like hit distorts (which it does not with your MKII) then there will be a higher order (harmonic) frequency. But of course we have to call that distortion.

Regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

Jud, I have all kinds of responses after listening to almost the whole album. But first we have to defeat Juan.
I learned Holland and Spain are no enemies but I am not sure yet. So first that.

More tomorrow - *if* I don't foget my impressions.
Thanks,
Peter

[juanpmar]

Ok Peter, you got it now you can happily return to the Orelo and the Nos1a

We'll be back (I hope  )
Juan

[manisandher]

The highs in normal AP are relatively "on/off" - a bit like the Silverstone card emphasises. This though makes the bass underwhelming.

This is a nice explanation for what I always felt of AP - the cleanest sounding filter I've ever heard, but ever so slightly lean low down.

Then I started typing this post and realized that this is 24/44.1 and recalled that only a few days ago I tried all of those I have here and they are all wrong. So maybe this one too (taken from a DVD or something, perhaps).

No, it's a download direct from the Artist's website. I sent you the 24/44.1 version because it sounds so much better than my CD rip of the same song. I don't think this has anything to do with 16bit vs. 24bit. I've always thought that CD authoring is a bit hit 'n' miss, and my CD rip is a great example of a miss. I'll send this to you too so you can compare yourself when you have the time and/or inclination.

Feel your woofers to understand what I mean - you can actually feel it DC-like going out and in at hits (maybe DC Offset of the NOS1(a) shows it.

OK, will try.

So again, when's the new filter available for us to try?

Mani.

[manisandher]

Are you using the cables that I sent you?

Hey Juan, I forgot to reply to you. Yep, I'm using the cables you sent me. I think they're really good. I'm sure I've said it before - even at 10m length, they seem to have absolutely no detrimental effect on the sound. I'm very pleased with them, and for the money they were a steal.

Cheers, Mani.

[PeterSt]

So again, when's the new filter available for us to try?

Oops, I'm sorry. Working on that now again after finalizing the Driver for the NOS1a (works, but needs another small week for the signing of the Driver for W8.

But no idea yet. I am trying to find the source of ticking which can happen.

Peter

[juanpmar]

Are you using the cables that I sent you?

Hey Juan, I forgot to reply to you. Yep, I'm using the cables you sent me. I think they're really good. I'm sure I've said it before - even at 10m length, they seem to have absolutely no detrimental effect on the sound. I'm very pleased with them, and for the money they were a steal.

Cheers, Mani.

Great!

Juan

[PeterSt]

No, it's a download direct from the Artist's website. I sent you the 24/44.1 version because it sounds so much better than my CD rip of the same song. I don't think this has anything to do with 16bit vs. 24bit. I've always thought that CD authoring is a bit hit 'n' miss, and my CD rip is a great example of a miss. I'll send this to you too so you can compare yourself when you have the time and/or inclination.

Hey Mani,

Now we have a strange problem;
So, listened to the CD rip. Today I did NOT re-listen to the 24/44.1. Now maybe it's my changed ears since yesterday, but this is 10 times more open. Yesterday my impression was "synth stuff". Today ? today the drums are utterly realistic.

Now I don't know when you compared these both but with my tweeter and such by now well played in (broken in) with yours this can hardly be the case yet.
I know, we suddenly don't talk about bass any more ...

Played both at the same level; both have been subject to the same amount of (fairly much) compression and are as loud.

So I don't know; blame my ears ...
Peter

[PeterSt]

Mani ... Today I only listened through the new filter - I just realized.

[esimms86]

I look forward to seeing a thread perhaps entitled "First impression of the NOS1a(sans Orelo)" for those of us that don't have the good fortune to own or entertain the thought of owning an Orelo speaker setup(a.k.a., the NOS1a for the rest of us). In my mind, the XXHE PC/NOS1a/Orelo combination is the synergistic "trifecta," if you will, as they were literally made for each other. Perhaps in another life...

And, yes, I do very much appreciate Mani and Arjan's posted impressions and this post represents no slight of them or their posts in any way shape or form.

Esau

[manisandher]

Hi Esau, apart from the pic I posted early on in this thread, most of my comments are about the NOS1a rather than the Orelo speakers. I decided that I wasn't going to post my thoughts on the speakers until after this weekend, when Nick and Scroobius had been over to have a listen.

What else can I say about the NOS1a that I haven't already? Well, I'd go as far as saying that it is the single piece of hifi that I wouldn't give up for anything at any price. It is the heart of my system and is the component that allows all the others to perform to their max.

Mani.

[christoffe]

The NOS1a requires an update of the XXEngine3.exe & XXHighEnd.exe (transmitted by Peter) to version 1.186e

First listening impressions with the NOS1a ( settings see profile ) after two hours.

1)   It seems that all the “airy dirt” is vanished.
2)   The extreme left/right channel separation with the start of W8 is gone. (due to the new revision of the exe files?)
3)   Replay of cymbals with more details/resolution ( “Sakura, Sakura” – Stanley Clarke Trio)
4)   Bass is more profound ( “Sakura, Sakura” – Stanley Clarke Trio)
5)   Less harshness at wind instruments (trumpets - “Sunflower” from Wynton Marsalis)
6)   A refined 3D image of the recording room.

A prior nearly unlistenable album (Diana Krall – The Look Of Love) sounds much better now.

Thanks to Peter we do have the chance to buy a “very very early Christmas present” now.

Great job!!!!

Joachim

[Arjan]

Hi Joachim,

Good to hear how the 'a' relates to the 'old' NOS1 I never had! I am currently halfway the burn-in period (10th day) of my new NOS1a. It is a rollercoaster as Coen said before, some days are okay other days are worse.

But this evening the SQ is beautiful!

regards, Arjan

[christoffe]

Hi Joachim,

Good to hear how the 'a' relates to the 'old' NOS1 I never had! I am currently halfway the burn-in period (10th day) of my new NOS1a. It is a rollercoaster as Coen said before, some days are okay other days are worse.

But this evening the SQ is beautiful!

regards, Arjan

Hi Arjan,
so you are on the road to …………… .

Peter wrote that an updated NOS1 needs no burn in , and so I should hear the full potential of the modification already. (bass and highs are amazing)
At present I’m going through my “library” and I hear details not familiar with. I’m still in the familiarization period with the NOS1a, but I can say already, the SQ made a tremendous step forwards.

In one week I will go from 8x AP to 16x AP for a comparison.

I see in your profile that your setting is without upsampling.

Joachim

[Arjan]

Hi Joachim,
I have changed my profile! Thank you for mentioning!
The PC I use now is different from my full linear and modified XXHE pc.
A small nice looking fanless case.
When the burn-in is done I will do a test with the two pc's.
Regards, Arjan

[toddn]

So I was one of the very fortunate early upgraders to the new NOS1a. We have all read some of the great initial impressions of the NOS1a, however, many of them have been with dramatic changes to the poster's other equipment (I’d love to hear it’s performance in those systems) What I will unequivocally point out is that with the level of performance Peter has achieved with the NOS1a we all will be evaluating any other weaknesses in our systems.

Since I haven’t posted my equipment list in my signature, I thought I would put it here to give everyone an idea of what I am listening to. The PC is very similar to Peter’s spec unit but in a full size case and with linear power on all voltage rails for the PC (not that this matters anymore with the NOS1a , the NOS1a balanced outputs drive bridged Ncore 400’s, so two NC400 modules bridged on left channel and two on right channel connected to custom passive crossovers for the dipole midrange and tweeters of the Audio Artistry Beethoven Grands.(Normally these would be driven through the Beethoven’s electronic x-over, but that was affecting the resolution of the NOS1.) I have a separate set of balanced outputs off a XLR Y-cable feeding the electronic x-over which feeds two more NC400’s per channel driving the mid-bass and subwoofer drivers. (for reference, there are a total of 8 ScanSpeak 10” drivers in the main panels and 16 Peerless XLR long throw 12” drivers in separate folded baffles, these are all open baffles. The total surface area is almost three times that of the Orelo MKII’s 6-15” drivers, so very low excursion and distortion for a lot of output)
Also, now knowing Peter’s analysis of the Ncore amps, it is very possible that I will audition new mid/tweeter amps to be able to fully realize the potential of the NOS1a’s resolution

Ok, so back to the real reason for this post, the sound quality. Hard to put in words, from the moment I started playing it my mouth was just wide open in astonishment! Well truthfully, I had some phase issues from stupid wiring mistakes; (I forgot that the high output of Butterworth x-overs must have the phase inverted. Oh yeah and double check the wires of your XLR cable assembly before soldering them, duh.)  I hope Peter forgives me for initially implying that perhaps in final assembly one of the channels of the NOS1a was wired out of phase

So once I corrected my wiring, what I heard was the most natural but detailed sound that I have ever heard. The music just flowed as one complete unit, I wasn’t just drawn to one aspect, and everything was in perfect balance but with so much more information! I found myself literally overjoyed with emotion at what I was experiencing. And I have never heard such a precise soundstage, both from left to right and front to back. All the performers were firmly grounded in the actual positions in which they were recorded! Everything was in proper scale. I told Peter in an email that I could see one performer turning to the other during their interaction on stage; well I thought I could see it, but I literally could hear the change in where the performer’s voice was directed!

I could go on and on and I assure you this is not hyperbole. I obviously don’t post a lot , so I’m maybe not the best at pointing out specific things, but that is the wonderful thing about the NOS1a, everything is now presented as a whole so no more nitpicking this or that. It is all just so right!

For any of us that have been on this journey with the NOS1 and all the iterations of XXHighend, we have all listened to our music library like it was completely new. Re-exploring albums that we were familiar with and hearing them as if they were completely new re-masters. Well I assure you, if you get the NOS1a upgrade you will be doing that all over again, and don’t be surprised if you’re listening to genres of music that normally aren’t your cup of tea because they’ re viewed through a completely different lens!

Oh, and one other thing, it was Mani now years ago that posted his observations on another forum, saying how much he preferred the NOS1 to his Pacific Microsonics 2. He said to beg, borrow or steal to get your hands on a NOS1. So I did and never looked back. I would say that applies tenfold to the NOS1a! You know it sucks paying $600 in shipping to get something sent and returned from the States to the Netherlands, but I really would not hesitate to pay twice the upgrade cost after hearing the NOS1a!

Not to fuel any fires, but if I were way down the upgrade list, I would pay someone higher up a healthy premium to exchange spots just to get it sooner

[manisandher]

Hey Todd, thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's always nice when someone arrives at the same findings as yourself totally independently.

Oh, and one other thing, it was Mani now years ago that posted his observations on another forum, saying how much he preferred the NOS1 to his Pacific Microsonics 2. He said to beg, borrow or steal to get your hands on a NOS1. So I did and never looked back.

Well I hope it was either of the first two and not the last. But in any case, it's nice to know that someone finally listened to me. Now if only I could have the same effect on my wife

Not to fuel any fires, but if I were way down the upgrade list, I would pay someone higher up a healthy premium to exchange spots just to get it sooner

Haha...

Mani.

[PeterSt]

I could go on and on and I assure you this is not hyperbole. I obviously don’t post a lot , so I’m maybe not the best at pointing out specific things, but that is the wonderful thing about the NOS1a, everything is now presented as a whole so no more nitpicking this or that. It is all just so right!

Todd, I can assure you that you pointed out all very well and in such a pleasurable fashion to read. Very nice ! ...

The total surface area is almost three times that of the Orelo MKII’s 6-15” drivers,

... but since I calculate 1059,75^" vs 2436^" I would say "more than two times". But, crazy of course !

Also, now knowing Peter’s analysis of the Ncore amps,

Oh, I am sorry about that; I don't think I ever knew that you use those. Anyway, please take it as how I wrote that (elsewhere) and that listening is subjective.

For any of us that have been on this journey with the NOS1 and all the iterations of XXHighend, we have all listened to our music library like it was completely new. Re-exploring albums that we were familiar with and hearing them as if they were completely new re-masters.

Funny actually that it really happens like that. So changes over time must really be huge. And it keeps on happening (as it seems).

Well I assure you, if you get the NOS1a upgrade you will be doing that all over again, and don’t be surprised if you’re listening to genres of music that normally aren’t your cup of tea because they’ re viewed through a completely different lens!

Thank you Todd.
Peter

[2glory]

#19 shipping from US FL. This Monday. Wife wants Peter to stick a remote in with the upgrade , "OK dear Peter can do that for sure".

[Mamba315]

She'll have to make due with a (tiny) pair of shoes. 

[Scroobius]

Hi Todd - Great to read your post on NOS1a . I know you had a pair of Dexa's at each end of your USB link are you still using them?

I have them installed with my NOS1a they are well worth keeping from what I hear.

Cheers

Paul

[Scroobius]

Todd - also is there any chance you could post a picture of your system I would love to see that big radiating area!!

Cheers

Paul

[PeterSt]

This is addressed to everybody, hence not specifically to Paul :

We at Phasure are there to help out. This also means that when something is broken we feel "entitled" not to charge all the time we *need* to spend to repair stuff as the result of what stupid (YES !) Dexa tweaks are causing here and there. Now ask Todd about THAT, Ok ?

So I really can only say this :
When people appear not to be able (or by accident) to keep all working as should, and it costs us 3 days or even more to find the cluprit, it means that the invoice for it can go rather unlimited sky high. It can also mean that if 3 days were spent and still no solution, we must fall back to replace e.g. a DAC board which costs into the 700 euros. So now it's those three days (count 1500 for that) plus over 700 plus the additional work for the replacement. Say we're at 2500 now.
Add over 300 euros for shipping back and forth for a common country somewhere on the globe.

This goes quite unnoticed because *WE* take most of this cost. So again, ask Todd, or you neighbour for that matter.

All in other words : Nice that you keep on talking people into stuff I don't believe in myself (but suit yourself !) but if *you* (Paul) are not in control of whatever issues which theoretically apply and can happen for damage at others, you better agree amongst eachother who is going to bear those costs. And this in other words : I won't any more.
Does this sound logical ? I hope so !

I hope it is totally clear that I only "need" to say this because I hate it when someone applies something for the better - also springing from the genuine best ideas and advices - ... that I hate it to charge so much money for someone applying his hobby. So I just don't want to run into it, and it can be avoided.

All in good spirit,
Peter

[toddn]

Hi Paul,

Congratulations on your upcoming Orelinos! It will be nice to hear the impressions of someone who has never been a horn guy

Regarding the Dexa clocks, my NOS1@ is a completely unadulterated model. No BG caps, no Dexa clock. Many thanks to Peter for absorbing most of the cost of returning it to stock.(I had removed all modifications to the USB board before sending it back for the "a" upgrade) I can not understate my appreciation to Peter for all he did and has done for me.

I do still use a Dexa clock and power supply on my PC USB3 board. Where I think it's quality is superior to a stock board and two different audiophile USB PCIe boards that I own and tried.

However, I think it's use in the NOS1a is ill advised. Peter's power supplies in all sections of the NOS1a have ripple factors much lower than anything out there, and I believe that synergy of all of his components are crucial to the low jitter and low noise that the NOS1a exhibits.

I've come to understand that without the quality test equipment, the engineering prowess and indeed the "outside the box" thinking that Peter possesses, I cannot possibly trust my judgement(or lack there of) in making modifications to the NOS1a

And at this point, given that you will have the Orlino's, another reunion with Mani might be in order for a subjective comparison

Below is the right channel of my system. Kind of hard to see with the lighting, but the 8-12" Peerless XLS drivers are housed in a "W" shaped folded baffle open to the front and rear, behind the beautiful Brazilian Rosewood sides. The folding is just to make the system more compact and is equalized in the electronic crossover. They cover from 70Hz down 18Hz.

I'd love to hear what 2 Orelinos horns would do in place of the Scanspeak 8s and tweeters, since the cover from 260hz and up

Again, can't wait to here your impressions of your new Orelinos once you get them!

Cheers,
Todd

[toddn]

Sorry I didn't resize the photo properly, my first time trying to attach one...

[PeterSt]

I changed it somewhat for you Todd.

And thanks (also for all the kind words ...).
Peter

[Scroobius]

We at Phasure are there to help out.

Wow I did not realise that Peter (or rather Ciska) had fixed Todd's NOS1 FOC  - Peter told me about what happened to Todd's NOS1 when I was over in Holland and it was the weirdest problem imaginable with no real clue as to what was wrong.

What I do know (having done it myself) is the amount of work that Ciska did with investigations and then repair to Todd's NOS1 and I would not wish that on anyone. It is a serious amount of work.

As Peter mentioned elsewhere the dexa was still in my NOS1 when it was upgraded but only because I could not be bothered to remove it and put the old clock back in. When Peter measured my NOS1 it was fine and to spec. I have to say that I consider myself very lucky that was the case and I freely admit to being very apprehensive when Peter hooked up my NOS to his "all seeing" and very impressive measuring system.

With NOS1a performance as it is now I would not advocate any modifications by anyone. My query of Todd about the dexa was a pretty thoughtless one and was not intended in any way to encourage anyone to make any modifications.

Cheers

Paul

[Scroobius]

Hi Todd - thanks for posting a picture of your system. Very impressive that is a serious number of drivers and must sound very impressive. Shame I do not live nearer I would have liked to "pop" in for a listen.

It will be interesting to hear the Orelino's in my room as the implementation will have some significant differences compared with Peter and Mani's only because of the odd shape of my room. It will certainly test Peter's assertion that the sound (in the bass?) is pretty much independent of room shape and size.

The time is approaching!!

Cheers

Paul

[christoffe]

It will certainly test Peter's assertion that the sound (in the bass?) is pretty much independent of room shape and size.

There is no chance to "outfox"/bend elementary physics!!!!

Joachim

Edit:

Another excerpt out of an article
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/theroom/8.html

Start reading at para 4, please

-Quote-
Many self-professed audiophiles—including until recently myself—really do not possess a full understanding of what goes on inside their listening rooms. Every room including yours has resonance modes. "A bass note that matches one of the room’s resonance node frequencies will have a very boomy and long decaying sound. When the bass note matches a non-resonant room frequency you end up with a very rapid decay note followed by the resurgence of the sound to within 10dB of the original level." Amazingly—and this is really important—the actual frequency of the reflected sound is changed resulting in a dramatic coloration with a profound impact on listening. As we all go to extraordinary lengths to tweak our systems via seeming insanities like special cables, risers, magic dots and countless dollars in equipment, without acoustic treatment the sound is wrong.  It might be enjoyable and somewhat pleasant but it's not accurate and it's not what's on the recording. 
-Unquote-

[Scroobius]

There is no chance to "outfox"/bend elementary physics!!!!

Hey Joachim - Absolutely correct and from what I have read it is not even possible for experts to computer model what happens in any room because small irregularities in the build of walls etc produce big differences in reflections of long bass wavelengths.

Even so the directivity of bass in Orelxx and zero phase difference between channels in NOS1 prevents many of the reflections to start with. Anyway there will for sure be room effects.

Paul

[PeterSt]

Hey Joachim - Absolutely correct and from what I have read it is not even possible for experts to computer model what happens in any room because small irregularities in the build of walls etc produce big differences in reflections of long bass wavelengths.

Even so the directivity of bass in Orelxx and zero phase difference between channels in NOS1 mitigates many. Anyway there will for sure be room effects.

Phew, you were just ahead with that Paul; nice lead in for what I wanted to say anyway;

So I do bend physics, just because I like to do so in the first place.

Reading such article, it goes wrong in the first sentence because it assumes audible standing (/cancelling) waves as the base. Of course, easy to say, "each room has room modes etc. etc.", but simple question Paul : where were mine ? Or weren't you looking for them ?
There just isn't any. Only that one small corner with "headphone idea" and then only with face into that corner. Already this is a strange phenomenon, because while things in that corner seem to collect, it is that only and nothing like standing waves, more bass, or out of balance. Better think about how that can work (I have no real clue).

Next one : the directivity;
I have mentioned it all so often, but maybe I only learned very recently that no matter I pose the idea with the claim of "see, NOS1 can do that", I never (ever) got confirming feedback. Ok, people can forget to give the feedback, perhaps. However, I showed it to Paul, and to my own surpise he was floored. Well, at least more than I expected, just because he has a NOS1 so why would it be such a surpise to him. For others : I am talking about the localisation of pure bass without higher frequencies in them which would more easily locate the position. I am also talking about a phenomenon I apparently can only talk about but not lay out by other's references; what you never heard you never heard. Except of course when a real double bass would be in your room, playing in a corner and not from the middle.
So Paul, I am sure you will allow me - from your email from yesterday :

Hey Peter - I am listening to Mule just now and I can tell you for an absolute fact that the bass comes from the middle or no rather it kind of comes from all over the place so something must be wrong ha ha!!

Of course Paul, you will not be the measure and possibly some out there are able to "do" what I do in my room, but still nobody told me so.

However, at Peter's I also found the bass to be light.

No Paul, you did not. You did explicitly not or otherwise you were faking. But, do not try to let punk sh*t work which possibly shows more rumble for situations you are used to (see quote of your email text above).
So if you (dare) tell me that this same double bass was too light or that it is better in your room today, *then* we have a discussion.


The above is only exemplary for how difficult it apparently is to talk about audio, even after being together in a same room and in aftermath people can dream away only by reading an article like that from 6moons. An article which seems so logical. Yes Paul, for your room it most probably will be, with the speakers you currently use. Of course, this is not about you, nor is it about Joachim or anybody else for that matter - it is about how easily we are fooled by perceived logic and science and what not. You where there man ! Even Joachim was there, although at that time (3-4 years ago) I for sure did not solve all my standing waves.
And no, I did not change a single thing to my room and no, it is not treated with anything and yes I have my curtains open, and indeed it is as hard as can be all over (not the floor).

Can we think about this please ? I mean, how devistating that alone already has to be ?
And eh, any experiences with open baffle speakers and where they all shoud NOT be placed ? Noticed where mine are positioned ?

So with this all together, let's now review how physics just *are* bended. IOW, all open for discussion. But first we must agree that nothing exhibits in my room which even smells like room modes. Still - and indeed - I *will* have those too.
So ?

Peter

PS: If you watched carefully () you can see that in the most profound bass area I added 5 (FIVE) dB over the weekend. All still fine in my room.

PPS: Another hint is that I can also play easily over a 100dBSPL and still nothing detrimental will happen (maybe we did that Paul, I forgot).

[christoffe]

So if you (dare) tell me that this same double bass was too light or that it is better in your room today, *then* we have a discussion.

Hi Peter,

the SQ of the bass in Pauls rooms must be different to the bass in your room, that is pure logic. (see Manis "holes" in the LF curve, which are not present in your room)

The sound in your room is very good (to my astonishment) with  the glas walls all around. The diffractions due to the shelfs, sofa, table, carpets and kitchen area are/may creating "wonders".

Joachim

Edit:

As far as I can rememeber all walls are not rectangular to the other??? (90° angle)

[Scroobius]

standing waves ....... but simple question Paul : where were mine ?

Very simply I did not hear any standing waves at Peter's and I did not hear any standing waves at Mani's. None ......... zippo!!!.

As Peter mentioned there is one corner in Peter's room where if you stand right in the corner looking at the wall (with Dunce's cap on ha ha) there is a strange room effect. Bizarrely though if you turn around and face outward it seems to disappear. Odd! but other than there really are no standing waves that I could hear.

bass light........No Paul, you did not

MMmmmm .... weren't we listening to W8 and your MkII's completed with notch at 90Hz? seemed to me on most recordings to be bass light although I have to agree that the double bass on that particular Mule recording seemed fine.

I showed it to Paul, and to my own surprise he was floored

Yes I have to say I was surprised to hear a double bass so clearly coming from a particular direction. Simply because I never heard that before. I guess the reflections and standing waves in most (all!) other listening environments including mine preclude that. It is very well established in audio theory that all sound can be directional it is just that I never heard it actually achieved before.

Cheers

Paul

 

[PeterSt]

As far as I can rememeber all walls are not rectangular to the other??? (90° angle)

Correct Joachim. The only "even" wall is where the loudspeakers are (in round corners); all of the remainder has strange angles.

But that is not really doing all of the tricks - or maybe almost none;
When the house was new I was using all sorts of PEQ's and room correction. But that vanished when the SQ improved and when I started to use "standing waves" as a sheer measure. So for example, when I'd now use another DAC and/or another player, all is back and buzzes as hell.

Thanks,
Peter

[PeterSt]

MMmmmm .... weren't we listening to W8 and your MkII's completed with notch at 90Hz? seemed to me on most recordings to be bass light although I have to agree that the double bass on that particular Mule recording seemed fine.

Paul,

Now you (again) fool yourself by an "article". This time though the "article" is my own (the Twip topic).

But of course I too must be honest, and if I claim that this "Twip" is for the better, I too have fooled myself. How ? measurements. I can (and should) also say it like this :

If I am supposed to be correct now (W7 measures differently than W8 which is where I made the mistake) then in aftermath you are correct just the same. But please notice that "in aftermath" is very different from not being satisfied when at the spot. Same counts for me myself : I have not been in lack of anything (but a handful of albums) which does not mean we can not improve (forever so to speak).
I can also say that I have been teasing you with my previous post because I too know what happens (or what can happen) but still I am totally honest each and every day.

Let me also say in all honesty that I am not and never will be God or something, and that my perception of things is one big long lesson just the same. This can be read as : when you all complain enough, at some stage I have to listen to you and (try to) do something about it. This in itself though is not easy at all, because I also know how different all can be in different rooms and I need good theory to let happen things for the better. So :

When I measure to my best capabilities and tune the lot to that, I refuse to tweak stuff for dips and whatever, just because it is MY ears which may tell me so. It can only end up for the worse because my ears are not yours and although I try to be not subjective, we still don't know what we both perceive, especially not when you are there and I am here (with the all over different rooms). So one solution only : measure and think that straight should be the thang.

Until I find theories that disprove it. And this is what has happened now (mind you, still theories only, but logical enough to let me start travel a path of changes).

But of course it is too d*mn idiot that the Operating System used for measurement makes THE difference.
So there we are - in the midst of the most difficult subject (audio) to communicate over through words, and I don't see it becoming more easy. But better Sure Yes. And your hope ? That I don't *want* to do it alone.

Thank you Paul,
Peter