World Cup in Brasil

[christoffe]

Congrats

Netherlands 5 - Spain 1

Unbelievable

Joachim

[manisandher]

Great game. What the World Cup is all about.

Mani.

[juanpmar]

Tremendous defeat, we will see if we can overcome it...

Congratulation to the Dutch team, they were much better this time.

Juan

[PeterSt]

At some stage I started to feel embarrassed and hoped for "not another one !". Not even sure why but something like "not more needed to convince". I'm sure that for me it also related to those genuine desparate faces which were in focus each few minutes (poor goal keeper).

No, this was rare. Very rare. Maybe I lift it to an unauthorized level but at 70 or so minutes into the match I made the remark "isn't this this 3rd faul so far only ?". And a few minutes later "isn't this the 2nd corner ?".
I didn't really count, but this is how it started to come across at some stage. The very very best match without any real fauling and just football. And that we kicked in a few became second cause; I think I wouldn't have cared less if it had been the other way around (ahum).

But for Dutchmen I think this showed something totally since ages : no dominance of elder more experienced and therefore everybody feeling free to show his best. No sign of multi milion income and snobbish behaviour. So this is what I have seen since maybe 1988 and that now all was gone.

I can tell you, the past few days the news was all over with very few signs of "orange" accessoires from super markets and the "why". A bit of a puzzle but it is true. I myself noticed a very strict 2 cars orange-decorated in the past weeks. TWO. This, while previously it would be TWO-NOT.
So the whole of Holland has given up on this stupidly behaving hautain football players ? I don't know.
But now THIS ?

Actually it was totally outragious and maybe it is a one time happening only. Again, for me it was only the observing of the Spanish with allure with faces like "No man, we just can't do anything about it; let's play nice and don't blame anyone. This is a super power we are not up to, but no worries - nobody will be up to that.". And really *that* in itself is at least for me the greatest victory this game in general could have received; just that super fine attitude.

For us Dutch this extended to interviews afterwards. This was really strange - maybe fed with coincidence - but about a math like preparation to at least this match which from two different angles was layed out like "yes, but this is exactly how it was predicted by the coach and it couldn't have gone otherwise". Easy talk in aftermath. But later the coach (Van Gaal) told the same but with all kinds of argumentation and due changed strategy when needed and such and so would happen and it was weird. Math like. Of course, this *is* how football is run these days, but this was just too close to predicted truth to be real. Still it was (also still : easily said in aftermath).

For Dutch insiders, I will add that especially this last year's competition has been rather srange; all teams underwhelm by far and "european" it is all nothing this year (the past years also but it gets worse). What seems to have come from that is very "open" coaches who now suddenly emphasize how, where and why the other team is better, when they lose themselves. To me this is new. It almost shows the same as what I described above about the Spanish faces; just blame yourself instead of having bad luck, stupid referees and the like. But this is NOT how the media approach it. So only yesterday morning I heard about a complete conspiracy theory how the Dutch for sure would be out soon - only because there's a fine Dutch referee (regarded the best out there ?) who was granted this WC job for maybe unreal reasons, and now all the other referrees controlling matches where the Dutch would play would cause Holland to lose.
That nasty atmosphere.
Of course this match starts out with a penalty against the Dutch, but alas ...

And about that one last remark :
That goal from Spain which was rejected beause of offside ... this was an (I say) rare occasion I didn't notice it myself. Actually nobody did much. But it still was as the replay of the linesman showed. I saw nothing from the referees that I judged as wrong. This is personal, but still this is so often so different.

So for me this was 100% about how it should be. Of course I am biased but I try to see through that.
100%

Peter

[christoffe]

Some comments from British papers:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/holland/10899097/Holland-coach-Louis-van-Gaals-relaxed-approach-pays-off-as-World-Cup-holders-Spain-are-destroyed-in-Salvador.html
&
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jun/14/holland-risky-strategy-spain-world-cup-group-b

[juanpmar]

Hi Peter, the first thing that we all must do is to congratulate the Dutch. They were better and deserved to win. I would like to emphasize that they deserved the victory for their attitude and for the lousy game of the Spanish team, mostly in the second half.

I find it a bit difficult to properly understand all the arguments of your post, probably it is due to my English. Obviously I like football and follow the Spanish team but I don´t feel able to make a sociological study from it, could be interesting though, I guess.

There was a pending revenge between us and I understand the exaltation of the victory on your side, more so if such a resounding victory is against the current world champion.
I don´t know about the issues in reference to pressures on the referees or attitudes snobs from the players and I don´t know either if you are talking about of the Spanish players in this regard. My impression is that both the players and the coach of the Spanish national team always have a respectful behavior with all the other teams. That's probably why they became champions.

As I said in another moment we'll see if we can overcome this defeat, this is a championship and yesterday was just the first match. We are not definitively defeated yet and we will see very soon how far we can go.

Juan

[PeterSt]

Hi Juan,

I don´t know about the issues in reference to pressures on the referees or attitudes snobs from the players and I don´t know either if you are talking about of the Spanish players in this regard.

I was talking about the Dutch only !

Regards,
Peter

[Jud]

I was as surprised as everyone else.  Since I did not have a strong rooting interest, what I appreciated were the quality of the goals, and also the two late saves by the Spanish goalkeeper after all was already long lost - just pure fierce pride and wonderful to see.

Looking forward to seeing Messi, though because of a change in the TV channels I get and his injury, I've seen none of him this season.  Meanwhile Cristiano Ronaldo is doing great and everyone thinks Neymar may now be the world's best, though both have nagging injuries.  So Juan, which one should I expect to do best?

[juanpmar]

Hi Jud,

Casillas, the Spanish goalkeeper is probably one of the best in the world. Sad to see him make some mistakes, which is rare, it seems that he is not in his best shape right now, anyway always has and will have brilliant moments.

As for what player among the ones you mentioned will be the star of this world cup, it looks like will be Neymar because Brazil "must" win the cup, also because he is only 22 and is able to put the team on his back and finally because the team plays for him. However, although Brazil has many advantages playing at home I do not think it's the best team in this tournament.

The Spanish league (championship), is very hard and ended recently. Also the European Cup with two Spanish clubs playing the final ended just a few week ago, it brings the consequent fatigue of the players. So Messi, Christiano, Neymar that are playing in Spain can be resent due to so many games played. Seeing the way Holland played against an exhausted and partly aged Spain I would say that should be taken into account also Robben and Van Persie.
Anyway, still must show up many important teams, starting with tonight's game between Italy and England.

Regards,
Juan

[manisandher]

Anyway, still must show up many important teams, starting with tonight's game between Italy and England.

My wife is really excited. I have a totally different perspective. Growing up in England in the early '70s I experienced quite a bit or racism from uneducated idiots, many of whom would dress themselves up in the red and white England flag. Even though I was born and bred in this country, and really do love it to bits, I find it hard calling myself 'English' - 'British' yes, 'English' no. Anyway, since I was a little boy, I've always supported Brazil in the World Cup. I'm sure I was almost as gutted as any Brazilian back in 1982, to see such a wonderful team being humiliated by Paulo Rossi.

So, I really have no emotional connection to the England team. But for my wife's sake, and as retribution for what happened to Brazil in 1982, I hope England win.

Haha...

Mani.

[christoffe]

Spain: 0
Chile:  2

What's going on in Brasil?

Joachim

[acg]

Netherlands 3 Australia 2.

Not too bad a result for us Aussies, and pretty close in the end.  Still a minor sport in my part of the world and I doubt the World Cup will see the back page of any newspaper over here with three other football codes to compete with and "State Of Origin" Rugby League in full swing at the moment.

I played soccer competitively for 9 years in my youth and quite enjoyed the game...I wish I was still that fit now!!


Hey Joachim, I reckon Australia did better against the Dutch than we did against Chile...what is it with Spain that can't win a game this year??  That is quite surprising!


Anthony

[juanpmar]

Spain was tired physically and mentally. We never played as we used to do. Our time is over for now but we, the Spaniards, must be grateful for the last fantastic six years.

Regards
Juan

[christoffe]

Netherlands 3 Australia 2.
Hey Joachim, I reckon Australia did better against the Dutch than we did against Chile...


Anthony

That is true. The Aussies played really an aggressive fair  tackling. The Dutch were tired and not so ambitious as against Spain, and they underestimated the Aussies.
A  2 : 2  would have been fair result for both sides in this game.

What I do not like absolutely, are the "divers" (Goetze etc.).

I'm sure do believe that we see more surprising results.

Joachim

[christoffe]

Spain was tired physically and mentally. We never played as we used to do. Our time is over for now but we, the Spaniards, must be grateful for the last fantastic six years.

Regards
Juan

Correct, but the "Tiki-Taka" time is over.
You saw how Bayern Munich beat FC Barcelona in the Champions League with a different tactic last year.
This year Real Madrid smashed the "Tiki-Taka" team Bayern Munich (with Pepe Guardiola), and then Holland Spain a couple of days ago.
But Spain will come back with their wonderful technicians.

Joachim

[juanpmar]

Correct, but the "Tiki-Taka" time is over.
You saw how Bayern Munich beat FC Barcelona in the Champions League with a different tactic last year.
This year Real Madrid smashed the "Tiki-Taka" team Bayern Munich (with Pepe Guardiola), and then Holland Spain a couple of days ago.
But Spain will come back with their wonderful technicians.

Joachim

Spain could not play tiki taka in this World Cup except (partially) in the first half of the match against Holland. Tiki taka consists in two parts, in the first part the players have the control of the ball passing it between them and suddenly (second part) in a very fast way the players end the play with an attack. Spain has not had this time the control of the ball nor sufficient precision passing the ball. To play well tiki taka it is necessary to have technique, precision, imagination and speed in the final part of the play. I do not think that this way to play is obsolete, it is just difficult to play well this way.
What is obsolete, I think, is the term tiki-taka mostly because it is commonly applied only to the first part of a play (passing the ball between the players) forgetting that fast final part.

Regards,
Juan

[PeterSt]

in my view Australia was not bad at all. At least they were the best in disturbing the Dutch play and Holland was not good. Looked the same as all these many years and it irritated me right away.

But what I saw coming is the condition of the Australians. I mean you can think you can run and run and run to disturb the other, but that has its limits and that limit was visible towards the end of the first half. Of course, Holland changed style and now everyone was out of his hunting game "flow", but still. Towards the end of the 2nd half no Australian could shoot the ball without falling at the same time. Once I started to notice that it was really funny to see.

Holland was not the best at all, Australia was better for 101% ball posession already and the referee team ... destructive.

I keep an eye on South Korea.

[PeterSt]

This time I wanted to refrain from all kind of blahblah, but I can't hold myself of adding this :

After the match, in the airport, the Australians partied and celebrated like they had won or went through. But they did not and are out now. I heard audience tell that eveybody was so proud on the performance.
Good attitude, but I gues there is truth in it as well.

[acg]

This time I wanted to refrain from all kind of blahblah, but I can't hold myself of adding this :

After the match, in the airport, the Australians partied and celebrated like they had won or went through. But they did not and are out now. I heard audience tell that eveybody was so proud on the performance.
Good attitude, but I gues there is truth in it as well.

This is our fourth World Cup (including one in 1974)...we are pretty much happy just to qualify.  The Australian sporting way is play hard and with plenty of heart so if we do that can hold our heads high regardless of where we end up.  From memory we have progressed from the group rounds only once where we narrowly lost to Italy who went on to win the whole shebang that year. 

Cheers,

Anthony

[Scroobius]

Where I am working just now I drew Australia in the sweepstake. If they could have just got through to the finals I would have won £2. Ah well!!!!

[Jack]

To all the grieving Spaniards out there I have 4 words of comfort, Marc Marquez & Rafael Nadal, gladiators both!
Can't wait until 8 o'clock this evening though, going to a mates house to watch his newly painted walls dry!
Could be fun, besides there's nothing else happening.
Name withheld
Jack

[juanpmar]

Thank you Jack. Good luck this evening with Uruguay. England is a good team, I liked specially the fast Sturridge in the match with Italy.

Juan

[Jud]

Great photos: http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2014/06/the-2014-world-cup-part-i/100761/

[PeterSt]

Doesn't work much Jud. At least not here.

[Jud]

Doesn't work much Jud. At least not here.

Sorry to hear it.  I have a subscription to the magazine and don't know what others have access to on the website.  Usually it's open, but unfortunately not here.

Let's see whether this one attached image makes it through....

[PeterSt]

World photo Jud.
But are they watching a screen in the sky ?

[Jud]

World photo Jud.
But are they watching a screen in the sky ?

I believe this is outside the stadium in Brasil.

[PeterSt]

OMG ...

[acg]

OMG ...

Yes, talk about leaving the win to the last minute!  You are in the semis though, but I was wondering if it was ever going to happen with all the offsides...that has got to be a record.

[PeterSt]

What I said over here is that Van Persie even would manage to be off side at performing his penalty.

[acg]

What I said over here is that Van Persie even would manage to be off side at performing his penalty.

Or in his own half...haha.

I saw a guy today in a Man U jersey ??? with Van Persie across the back of it and he was arguing with his wife...he was offside too.  Seriously, I did, in Australia at a theme park with my young kids...spooky coincidence...but although I suppressed the urge to go up to him and tell him to take off the shirt to make everything alright I could not suppress a chuckle to myself.

Life's great.

Anthony

[Jud]

OMG ...

I always wonder what national health statistics will show about heart attacks and strokes after events like this.  It was obviously the Costa Rican strategy to get to penalty kicks, and defensively to work the offside trap to death.  I couldn't imagine what was going through your mind, Peter, the couple of times shots went off the crossbar or posts.  Brilliant substitution of that big goalie just for the penalties.  Did all the Dutch know that was going to happen?

[PeterSt]

Did all the Dutch know that was going to happen?

Haha, no. 10 minutes or so prior to official playtime end the TV commentary said something like " another goalie is warming up for ... what ? It won't be so that ... nah ... well, actually yes. And so logical."

And then it was compared to hand ball where this is more common (as I understood).

Next someone dug up some statistics about this Tim and found that from the last 20 penalties he only stopped two. Hmm, not all THAT good to let this happen for the better.
But it worked.
And if we by now follow all the exchanges of players from Van Gaal (the coach) then he will be famous for good decisions.

Anyway, the OMG is more loaded than what you out there will be able to see; the Dutch are completely famous for 100% of times losing all penalty kicks like this. 100%. So how could we win and how annoyingly smart it was of Costa Rica to anticipate these statistics. So I am also 100% sure that ALL the Dutch were sure to lose this, once penalty kicks were in order.
IIRC we lost 2 World Championships because of losing the penalties so it *is* our greatest fear.
But maybe that spell has been broken by now. Now it is not 100% any more ...

[Scroobius]

Come on Holland !!!

[christoffe]

Come on Holland !!!

With socks only , no chance, but good luck . See You in the final!?!

Joachim

[PeterSt]

Paul must be in bad shape. And really desparate.
UK is out (Cavendish too) and now Paul is coming over to Holland to watch the semi final over here with some Dutch. Orange shirt is mandatory (don't need to bring it Paul and no need to learn the Dutch Anthem either - we'll make you comfortable anyway ).

[Jud]

Come on Holland !!!

Paul,  you are sitting on the wrong part of the bike.

 

[Scroobius]

With socks only

After buying the orange kit no money left for shoes - maybe after I pay for NOS1a which is far more important!

you are sitting on the wrong part of the bike

yea hence the look on my face 

[Scroobius]

now Paul is coming over to Holland to watch the semi final

Yea Peter is right having run out of English sporting hero's there is nothing for it I am going to Holland tomorrow to support Holland. And I thought I was going to be listening to music!!! ha ha.

[acg]

Whoever gets through will have some solid competition in the final.  Germany 9 first half strikes for 5 goals...wow...that is an amazing statistic!!  Then they continued in the second.

[PeterSt]

Germany 9 first half strikes for 5 goals...wow

9 first what - what ? But what I saw was 4 goals in something like 9 minutes. I think it was at the fourth that I thought a repeat of the third was broadcasted. But no, it was another one.

Already in the first half the Dutch commentary spoke about Germany now needing to hold back because no nation deserved to be de-classed more.
When it was 6-0 and and one of the Germans just missed the goal bij millimetres the commentary said "Look, now he is behaving like a gentleman." "Or wasn't that on purpose after all ?" he said later after seeing the repeat.

[christoffe]

Germany 9 first half strikes for 5 goals...wow

When it was 6-0 and and one of the Germans just missed the goal bij millimetres the commentary said "Look, now he is behaving like a gentleman." "Or wasn't that on purpose after all ?" he said later after seeing the repeat.

I played handball for more than 20 years, and the worst thing is to be commiserated (bemitleidet werden). I better loose 0:10 than .......... .

Such games happens once within 100 years only, and what can you buy for it at present? Nothing, except you are at least the second in the tournament for 100%.

Joachim

[manisandher]

I'm currently working in Germany and I have to say that I didn't get much sleep last night with all the car horns being blown into the early hours.

I also couldn't get the image out of my head of that little boy in the crowd (about the same age as one of my sons) crying his eyes out in total confusion and desperation. I imagine this experience was akin to loosing his parents in the supermarket. I had to switch the TV off at half time because I just couldn't watch the humiliation any more.

But hats off to the German team for playing well.

Mani.

[juanpmar]

Hi Mani, I share your feelings and I also congratulate Germany for the excellent way to play.

I would like however be a bit critical. We should also be aware that the excessive frustration and excitement we're seeing is something to worry about. It may seem easy to position myself so, now that Spain is out of the competition, but seeing the riots caused by the defeat in Brazil and the way we also are engaged in a common project that does not solve any of our problems, is also frustrating. Brazil is a country with many real problems and to lose or win the World Cup do not solve it.
Soccer is a sport and not a way to manipulate people (it should not be, I mean).

Kind regards,
Juan

P.S. Good luck to the Dutch fellows tonight

[christoffe]

Hi Mani, I share your feelings and I also congratulate Germany for the excellent way to play.

I would like however be a bit critical. We should also be aware that the excessive frustration and excitement we're seeing is something to worry about. It may seem easy to position myself so, now that Spain is out of the competition, but seeing the riots caused by the defeat in Brazil and the way we also are engaged in a common project that does not solve any of our problems, is also frustrating. Brazil is a country with many real problems and to lose or win the World Cup do not solve it.
Soccer is a sport and not a way to manipulate people (it should not be, I mean).

Kind regards,
Juan

P.S. Good luck to the Dutch fellows tonight

Hi Juan,

nice writing. This is big business for the FIFA only.
South Africa has problems to use some of the football arenas today, and Brasil will face the same.

Who is to blame for? The politicians!!! They are "fighting" for prestigious events (Russia etc.) and have to invest a hell of money into the infrastructure according to the FIFA specs.
And afterwards the FIFA  will make profit in Billion of Dollars and the "lower class" people are starving. (South Africa, Brasil and Russia) The Olympic Winter Games in Russia this year costs more than 25 Billion Dollars. Crazy!!!!

----------------------------

Now it is Hollands turn to complete a European final. Van Gaal will look for it, I'm sure. 

I'm sure that Peters stock in fluids is big enough to celebrate ...... !

Joachim

[xp9433]

Really disappointed at the result. I thought a Netherlands Germany final would have been fantastic. What happened ....

[Jud]

Peter -

Sorry for all the Oranje fans.  At least you are better off than this guy:

[juanpmar]

Congratulations to all the Germans in this forum. Now is tiki taken time 

Regards,
Juan