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Author Topic: Mani's Orelo MkII speakers  (Read 58342 times)
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manisandher
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« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2014, 11:34:35 am »

I've just increased the output of the LF by 2dB (takes just seconds to do via USB cable into speakers) and...

... WOW!!!

This is bass like I've never heard before. (Nick/Paul, all the criticisms that we all had have totally disappeared. On a good dance track, my chest is thumped to pieces.) I'm going to keep things like this for a while, but may reduce it by 1dB if I feel it's too overwhelming.

Just a quick update on this...

I've finally settled for an increase of 1.7dB in the LF. Doesn't sound like much, but it totally changes the impact the music has. Bass lines and percussion really start driving the music forward. After 30-60 minutes of listening I realise that my neck muscles are hurting through all the involuntary head jiving.

But the bass 'quality' still takes getting used to. It's so lean and fast with absolutely no artificial 'bloom/fat' whatsoever. This is great from a rhythm perspective, but from a tonal perspective, it's difficult getting used. I'm totally convinced this lack of bloom is due to lack of distortion, which is a good thing. But I don't know... sometimes an oil painting is more gratifying than a photo...

Mani.
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« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2014, 11:52:51 am »

Hi Mani, it could be that all your life we have been used to hear distorted bass...

I remember talking with someone about vintage speakers for music of the seventies. It was only for fun, nothing serious about it. I was telling him that I was hearing so much saturation from the albums with the 24/96 hi res (Led Zep 1, 2 and 3)...

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« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2014, 01:56:32 pm »

I've just increased the output of the LF by 2dB (takes just seconds to do via USB cable into speakers) and...

... WOW!!!

This is bass like I've never heard before. (Nick/Paul, all the criticisms that we all had have totally disappeared. On a good dance track, my chest is thumped to pieces.) I'm going to keep things like this for a while, but may reduce it by 1dB if I feel it's too overwhelming.

Just a quick update on this...

I've finally settled for an increase of 1.7dB in the LF. Doesn't sound like much, but it totally changes the impact the music has. Bass lines and percussion really start driving the music forward. After 30-60 minutes of listening I realise that my neck muscles are hurting through all the involuntary head jiving.

But the bass 'quality' still takes getting used to. It's so lean and fast with absolutely no artificial 'bloom/fat' whatsoever. This is great from a rhythm perspective, but from a tonal perspective, it's difficult getting used. I'm totally convinced this lack of bloom is due to lack of distortion, which is a good thing. But I don't know... sometimes an oil painting is more gratifying than a photo...

Mani.

Mani, you've got a lot more experience than I do listening to great systems, so please take this not as advice, which I wouldn't presume to give, but just as a thought for your consideration - and would be interested in your response:

Do you think at this point, since after all you are concentrating on getting the proper bass response, that you are concerned too much with how the bass sounds, and less with whether the music overall sounds great - real and natural?  I wonder whether giving the "search for the right bass" a rest and simply listening to and enjoying the music for a good while, might in the end get you where you want to go (the right bass response) with less back-and-forth.
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« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2014, 02:37:25 pm »

I wonder whether giving the "search for the right bass" a rest and simply listening to and enjoying the music for a good while, might in the end get you where you want to go (the right bass response) with less back-and-forth.

Hey Jud, thanks for sharing... I really do appreciate your thoughts.

Yep, I'm all for simply listening and enjoying the music, and seeing where that takes me. Definitely. And I think I'm nearly in a position to be able to do this, now that I have a tonal balance I'm happy with.

I suppose one of my biggest 'issues' is that I already have (have had for a while now) a system that I totally love the sound of - my vinyl digitization setup in my little 'studio' in my basement. Essentially, a pair of BD-Design mono amps driving a pair of AKG K-1000 headphones. This is my reference sound, the one I've been striving to emulate through speakers for quite a few years now (with different amps). So, I know the exact sound I'm looking for... and I generally know how far away (and in which 'direction') I am from getting it. When it's too far, I find it really hard to simply listen and enjoy the music through speakers.

Blessings and curses...

Mani.
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« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2014, 10:52:15 am »

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But I don't know... sometimes an oil painting is more gratifying than a photo...

Hi Mani,

I think you did not put your last two posts forward for a "discuss", but it just as well might be your intention. Anyway I feel that I should tell "back" something, but it is hard to come up with something useful. So just to let you know I'm there ...

FWIW ... Personally I would never take headphones for a reference; They are too different. The one element can perceivedly show for the better, the other never will be able to. As long as the latter does not express in distortion as such, the former will prevail and the remainder can be snowed under by it.
IOW, possibly you make yourself mad by wanting the same sound you perceive from the headphones, which just can not be.

Here's one why I never use headphones :
With headphones the music will be right in your head. You feel it nicely playing in the middle-top of your head or something and although the effect is something like being involved, the effect is also fake. I never like fake, or to be faked (influenced) by something which can not be real enough. So this is what I explicitly don't like either (and I know I am quite alone on this) :
When I'd be sitting in the sweetspot and close my eyes ... headphones effect. All sounds better right away but actually I have no reference. When I open my eyes, all sounds thus different and I can see how a plant already influences. Probably not physically (like in influencing the sound waves) but it contributes to reality. A glass of wine would do too and candle light would. And so this is not how I listen because it will be of no use that I tell you all how great the sound is, while it really is the nice wine + candle light doing it, while you like beer and are more of the Manchester United kind.
Try headphones with that plant and all should get confused. Only closing your eyes would let emerge a kind of consistent situation (no context because there plainly cant be any (no plant now *can* influence physically, right ?).

So far my attempt for contribution ...
Peter
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« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2014, 02:19:17 pm »

The AKG K-1000 headphones is one of the best money can buy, and the design is more a "near field monitor" (panels are rotatable/to tilt).

Maybe Mani is listening to his speakers in a near field position.

Otherwise headphones and speakers (with the influence of the listening room) are two different worlds.

Joachim
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« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2014, 11:21:58 pm »

My guess: With your new set up, there is a narrow cancellation somewhere between 60 and 100 Hz.

Buy a UMIK-1 and do some measurements of the bass region. You might have to work a little with the coordinates of your loudspeakers/listening spot.

At least, that was the cure for my system. -I have giant subwoofers with very correct and deep bass, but they didn't boogie enough when expected to. But after measuring and adding a little EQ at 60 Hz, it is sooo funky you wouldn't believe it!
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« Reply #67 on: July 20, 2014, 05:45:58 pm »

FWIW ... Personally I would never take headphones for a reference; They are too different.


Otherwise headphones and speakers (with the influence of the listening room) are two different worlds.

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

Of course, listening through headphones (or more accurately 'head speakers', in the case of the K-1000s), could never be mistaken for the real thing, whilst with (the very best) speakers it could. But when I talked about the 'sound' of my AKG K-1000 headphones in my previous post, I really meant 'tone'. There is a 'colour', a 'liquidity' to the tone with the K-1000s that I find simply intoxicating... And I'd love to have it in my speakers.

Sorry for causing the misunderstanding.

Mani.
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« Reply #68 on: July 20, 2014, 05:52:05 pm »

My guess: With your new set up, there is a narrow cancellation somewhere between 60 and 100 Hz.

There may be, but I think the slight increase in LF output via DSP has already fixed the issue. The boogie factor is now there in spades.

Hi Mani, it could be that all your life we have been used to hear distorted bass...

I think you're right Alain - what I'm probably missing is the harmonic distortion low down that I'm so used to. Perhaps I should bypass the internal amps and use an external tube amp... OR just get used to accurate bass reproduction... haha.

Mani.
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« Reply #69 on: July 20, 2014, 06:09:00 pm »

Hi Mani, sorry if I made a mistake while typing... I meant "All OUR life"... The Orelos are in a different league and I can imagine that one needs to reset some references Happy

Alain

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« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2014, 11:36:28 am »

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I think you're right Alain - what I'm probably missing is the harmonic distortion low down that I'm so used to.

Mani, but others too, allow me to repeat what I said several months ago :

When some kind of instrument allows a pure sine the in regions where normally distortion will easily occur (and depending on the loudness of the instrument), with this speaker you will here that sine. So if that would ba e 32Hz organ pipe doing it, all organs will now sound the same. Of course this is disregarding the churches they are in, but still.
If this would be a synth sine (from those how can really do that like FM-modulated ones I think) then whether it be 26, 28, 31 whatever LF Hz, they will sound 100% the same.

Back then I told about this in the context of my idea of the speaker exhibiting coloration, until it got to me what was going on. But of course this is the same as all not sounding "exhiting" so to speak. So remember, if distortion is exhibiting, the level of it already brings great variation in the now square sound and this goes unnoticed. Good example could be a Hammond which can do sines, but which often is used for "rock sound" (it would be literally named a "rock Hammond sound"). So play that in sine form, but when the level is high enough to cause distortion and it will sound "rock" and you wouldn't even notice it (because it is known for being able to produce that sound).

Mani, what you could do, is trying to find that 32Hz organ pipe music preferably in solitude, listen to it through headphones and compare with through the speakers.
I wonder what will come from that comparison, but if I am right through headphones it should sound "raw" / bombastic of which of course many organ(setting)s exist. So without comparison you would accept that also.
Try to play both at equally loud perceived level which means that for the speaker you should have set the output to close to the reference level of 88dBSPL (if that is not too loud for you) and do the same (perceived) with the headphones after that.
If the headphones show an as nice sine that it's not that what bugs you.
If the headphones don't show the 32Hz organ at all or at way lower level in relation to the rest of the music, then what to say (but you know).

Eh, have fun ?
regards,
Peter
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« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2014, 01:24:40 pm »

Thanks Peter. I'll try this when I'm back in the UK next week.

Mani.
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« Reply #72 on: July 23, 2014, 02:16:13 pm »

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I think you're right Alain - what I'm probably missing is the harmonic distortion low down that I'm so used to.

I have listened to Mani's and Peter's MkII's and I know exactly what Mani is referring to above. In fact it is a concern because my Orelino's are on order!!

One of the track's I listened to at Mani's and Peter's was by Soulphiction (Nick will know exactly which one!!) and both times I was disappointed in what I heard - presumably it was the lack of those distortion harmonics that robs the music of some of its punch it just does not "rock" as it does on my speakers at home.

So I was thinking that when Michael Baumann sat down to produce his album how did he do it? Well he was sitting in a room with a pair of of monitor speakers of some kind (but for sure in a box) in front of him. He played his synth, overlayed drum tracks and adjusted the sound (listening through the box speakers complete with harmonic distortion) to be just what he wanted. Anyway he then laid down the master and the CD's went on sale.

So then Michael Baumann visits Peter or Mani's and listens to his CD through the MkII's and says "hey! this does not sound anything like I intended it to sound". And he would be right because all those "distortion harmonics" would be missing. So it could be argued that the Orelo/Orelino for many albums does not produce the sound the artist intended.

But then there music with real instruments...........

Paul
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621 Xeon 6120 LPS PC  -> Xeon Scalable 16/32 core with Hyperthreading On (all cores active) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.69  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Off / WallPaper Off/ OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelino Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
AlainGr
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« Reply #73 on: July 23, 2014, 08:43:44 pm »

Hi Paul,

Yes it could be that the artist would not recognize the sound he intended... On the other hand, if he was to use speakers like the Orelos or Orelinos, do you imagine what would result in a "standard" speaker... The bass may get so overwhelming that it would take all the attention...

This is strange...

Alain
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Desktop with ASUS Sabertooth X79 motherboard,Intel 3930k 6 cores (+ 6) at 1.2 GHZ,32GB ram 1333Mhz,Win 10 pro build 14386 64 bit with no updates,OS + XXHE on external Sata III SSD (Esata), music (WAV) on external 5200 rpm drive through network, OS MInimized, XX with engine 4 adaptive,4096 (buffer size), CPU with scheme 3,Player = Low,Thread = RealTime, Q1 = 14,Q345 = 1,1,1,Q1x=1,Clock res = (variable),Stop Desktop Services,Stop Remaining Services,Stop Wasapi,,LAN on,persist = on,all OSD off,SFS = 2,PE off,PA off, Arc Prediction,x16 Upsample, Straight Contiguous,Lush USB  cable,Phasure NOS1a DAC,Meitner PA-6 preamp, Spectral Audio DMA-180  Power Amp, Tannoy System 15 DMT II, Tannoy St-100 supertweeters, Tannoy TS2.12 subwoofers (2). * On hiatus for a while...
vrao
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« Reply #74 on: July 24, 2014, 02:50:25 am »

My experience is that in smaller monitors or speakers with small woofers, the bass has been manipulated with a hump in the 80-200 range, that creates the artifactual bass perception.
I guess a Peter can comment on manipulating low freq with DSP on Oreleo?!

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