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Author Topic: In anticipation of my "nearly" new Orelino Speakers  (Read 32071 times)
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Scroobius
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« on: August 24, 2014, 08:47:14 pm »


Last week Bert advised me that my "nearly" new Orelino's are due here early September. So today in a frenzy of activity I got the chisel out. The problem in my room is that what cannot go over the carpet has to go under.

More to follow on why my Orelino's are "nearly" new and why I decided to splash out a lot of money on a pair of speakers the sound of which I was not entirely happy with.

Paul


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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2014, 11:13:33 pm »

Bloody hell Paul... I hope it all proves worth while. Looking forward to getting a chance to hear in person at some point.

Mani.
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« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2014, 12:10:02 am »

Hi Paul,

I concur with Mani. I sure hope you will be happy with your choice.

It will not be of much help, but when I got the Tannoy, I really was not convinced with what I heard before I made my decision. But I did get them after all. I am happy today, but the process was long and sometimes I was really not sure.

What is hard is that passed over a certain level, things can get so sharp that it becomes complicated. Sometimes getting a new component will mean "change another", sometimes one will decide not to keep a component because it requires too much... Money can also be an important factor in our attempt to "accept" something or turn it into something positive. Ultimately it comes to some difficult questions, questions that are not easy to share with others. I try hard not to disappoint anyone, but if I disappoint myself... unhappy 

From what I have read from you throughout time, I am sure you will find your way, as you are a "fighter" Happy

But please, do not rebuild your home !!!! Wink

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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2014, 12:31:43 am »



But please, do not rebuild your home !!!! Wink

Alain

Good advice, but Paul is on "Cloud Nine" Happy

Joachim
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« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2014, 01:16:38 am »


Good advice, but Paul is on "Cloud Nine" Happy

Joachim
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« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2014, 09:05:49 am »

Quote
But please, do not rebuild your home !!!

Actually it looks significantly worse than it really was as it took only 5 hours to do the complete job including waiting for the fast dry cement to dry. So just about the same time as a long bike ride which I do often (but didn't do yesterday ha ha).

However during all the discussions (or rather negotiations) with my (much) better half about the new speakers I must have forgotten to mention that I would have to burrow under the house as part of the install. Anyway all done now with just a draw string at each end to show for the work.

And Ros was not around when I was doing it so no problems!!!

Cheers

Paul
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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2014, 09:34:43 pm »

So today there was a new power outlet to install...........

A relatively short job (compared with the chiselling of yesterday).

So why do we have such large power sockets in the UK? - I don't know - the European alternatives look more sensible to me!!!!


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« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2014, 08:44:40 am »

Btw, what I wonder Paul,

Why do some of us install audiophile fuses in our devices + electricity room while you there (in the UK)  have stupid fuses in the mains cords ? Shouldn't you remove/shortcut those ?

Peter
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Scroobius
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« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2014, 12:51:26 pm »

Quote
have stupid fuses in the mains cords ?

Yea stupid fuses everywhere - in the dis box, balanced supply transformer, NOS1a, Amps and of course in the plugs of all the power chords. Expect that with my hi-fi gear (and not shown above) I use special outlets which allow you to screw the power chords direct in - so no stupid plugs.

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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2014, 01:07:47 pm »

And while I mention Balanced Transformers I am considering how to configure the mains supply for my system with the (nearly) new Orelino's. I shall of course have a separate mains ring for Music PC, NOS1a and amps (in Orelino's) all supplied via a separate dedicated earth. Which is what I have at the moment (that will entail lifting floor boards in the upstairs bedroom - more fun and more photo's to come  unhappy  )

However in the current setup the power supply for the hi-fi kit comes from a dedicated balanced transformer. The balanced transformer provides the benefit of a very very quiet earth (which is also dedicated via a spike in the garden). So that is a GOOD THING. However, at the end of the day it is a transformer with great big coils of wire in it which MAY limit the transient response of the system. And that could be a BAD THING. Now it will not be too difficult for me to test the difference between balanced supply and normal supply when I get my new speakers (uurrggh more work). And of course I shall report back on the results.

However, I was just wondering if anyone out there has tried it? Bert or Peter have you tried it? I would of course expect the new Orelino's to be much faster on transients than my current speakers so while I have not really noticed a difference before I may well now.


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« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2014, 03:02:56 pm »

I will be posting about all my experiences relating to my "nearly" new Orelinos so expect a number of posts upcoming.

And of course I shall be totally honest as I know that Peter expects nothing less!!

But first of all why "nearly" new. I recently had an away day (or two) in Holland and was fortunate enough to stay at Peter's for a night and to experience his excellent hospitality. Apart from me dutifully wearing a pair of orange socks (the things one does to keep ones hosts happy!!) and sitting down in the evening to watch Holland in the semi finals of the World Cup (with Ciska, Paul and Peter) we of course listened to Peter's Orello MkII's. I will cover that listening experience in a separate post.

During the evening though we went down into Peter's basement and had a forage around. And low and behold there were the "original" prototype Orelino's. Seemingly forgotten and unloved they were in pieces and spread around the basement floor. These were the original Orelino prototypes that Bert spent many hours and many months of toil building. They are the very same pair that ended up at the X-Fi show (see attached photo).

Prior to the visit I had been carefully measuring my room to see how I could fit the Orelino's in. Peter very obligingly spent much time emailing over exact dimensions until I was satisfied that I could fit them in (I hope I can anyway!!).

So that was it I decided (more on why in a later post) to buy a pair and having measured them in the basement they would fit (just!!!!). But for sure they will dominate the room!.

But that is not the end of the story - I subsequently found out from Peter and Bert that future Orelino's will not be the same as those prototypes. This is for various commercial and build (i.e. not technical) reasons. All future Orelino's will be essentially cut down Orello MkII's. So in other words the panel in future Orelino's will be the same as the MkII but not as high. That is entirely logical and Peter assured that there will be no performance difference.

However, that created a problem. The dimensions of the "new" Orelino/MkII panel (flatter with wider throat) is not good to fit my room. The deeper profile with narrower throat of the prototype fits my room better.

But then more problems!! - the prototype Orelino speakers were finished hurriedly probably to meet the show deadline and so needed more work by a carpenter to meet Bert's very high standards. Also there were no electronics and indeed no back panel at all. All the electronics of the prototype Orelino's were in boxes cunningly hidden under a table at X-Fi. I think Peter told me that in confidence so that is between just you and me OK?.

That is why Bert has been very busy recently because he has had to have built special sized back panels just for the electronics and much other work besides. So really they are completely re-worked. 

And what of the finish? - well luckily the finish is exactly what I would have chosen for my room anyway. The veneer looks great. I might have considered light coloured horns but on reflection I suspect it would have been difficult to get exactly the right shade to match the veneer so as they are they are just about what I would have chosen anyway.

So that was lucky!!

Anyway that is the story of my "nearly" new Orelino's. And for me I have to say I have sold them to myself on the basis that they will be exclusive to me and another pair the same will never ever be made!!

Cheers

Paul

 
 


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« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2014, 03:53:13 pm »

Now it will not be too difficult for me to test the difference between balanced supply and normal supply when I get my new speakers (uurrggh more work)...

... However, I was just wondering if anyone out there has tried it?

Hi Paul, I would have tried this a while ago... but just couldn't figure out an 'apples for apples' comparison. And what I'm talking about is the dedicated earth.

Here at my place, I'm getting 0.5V potential difference between my dedicated earth and my house's AC mains earth. The resistance is 5M Ohms, so there's very, very little current flowing between the two. I'm assuming they can be considered pretty well 'isolated'.

So the two scenarios are 1) with the transformer in place (for the sake of simplicity, let's just consider a non-balanced transformer here), and 2) without the transformer:

1). I can bond the dedicated earth to the Neutral of the secondary to effectively create a 'new' TNS mains network... totally (with the caveat above) isolated from the house's AC mains.

2). In this case, what do I connect the dedicated earth to? The house's AC mains earth? Seems a bit pointless to me. And also we need to bear in mind that here in the UK, we usually use TNC-S mains which means the AC mains earth is bonded the Neutral at the entry point. So I suppose the only option is to go for a T-T network. But there's now a potential difference between the Neutral and the dedicated earth - what affect does this have, if any?

So, I suppose what I'm saying is that yes, it would be easy to compare using a transformer with dedicated earth against no transformer and no dedicated earth. But I can't see how you could really compare using a transformer with dedicated earth against no transformer but still using a dedicated earth.

What am I not seeing here?

Mani.
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« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2014, 04:59:23 pm »

Hi Mani - for the test I was going to not connect the dedicated earth (i.e. the spike in the garden) but connect the mains earth through to the centre tap earth on the secondary of the balanced transformer. That is not a problem and is actually the way the transformer was connected originally. That way the test would be "apples" versus "apples".

Quote
In this case, what do I connect the dedicated earth to? The house's AC mains earth?

That's the default standard for the balanced transformer should not be a problem.

As I am only interested in how a transformer may affect transient response I am not interested in the earth other than it is quiet and similar in both set ups. So should work OK.


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« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2014, 05:28:37 pm »

Yep agreed, that'll give you an 'apples vs. apples' comparison.

The only thing missing would be the affect of the dedicated earth, i.e. not connecting the mains earth through the centre tap, but having the mains earth on the primary and the dedicated earth on the secondary (with a double-pole RCD or RCBO on the output for safety). Even if the balanced transformer is negatively affecting transients, this might be off-set by the positives of using a dedicated earth.

So you're probably best doing a 3-way comparison.

FWIW, over here I currently have things set up as follows:

- 63A D-curve MCB in CU to 15KVA isolation transformer (with 16A RCBO on output), with dedicated earth bonded to secondary Neutral, powering all linear power supply equipment
- 20A MCB in CU to 5KVA balanced transformer (with 16A RCBO on output), with dedicated earth bonded to centre tap of secondary, powering PC SMPS

I have a 'noise sniffer' (rated at 100Hz to 2MHz) which generally goes ballistic anywhere near a SMPS. I've tested the balanced transformer itself, and it reduces the PC's SMPS noise a little. But with my current configuration (1x isolation transformer and 1x balanced transformer), no PC SMPS noise seems to be getting through to the power strip that powers the (linear power supply) equipment. Even on it's most sensitive setting, with the hifi system in full swing, the sniffer registers '0'.

Mani.
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« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2014, 11:41:28 pm »

Here is a worthwhile tip, for those who's stereo share the mains with certain household electronics:

Several specialist companies feature Schaffner mains line filters inside their equipment.

SCHAFFNER filters can be bought separately too, for a modest price. You should go for a multi stage kind for maximum noise attenuation.

Now comes the funny part: Switch the direction of the filter (swap the male/female plug) so the filter works outbound (in "reverse" direction). Then you put it in line, prior to your coffee brewer, refrigerator and other possible noise sources. The point is that such components leaks noise back into the mains circuit.

-This tweak is not commonly known. I learnt it from my old friend, who used to design and manufacture high end amplifiers and electronics.

(Electronics, like a coffee brewer, featuring a thyristor can generate terrible high amounts of mains distortion).

THYRISTOR: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyristor

 Happy


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« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2014, 08:47:54 am »

Quote
The point is that such components leaks noise back into the mains circuit.

Same principle as how we could (or used to) protect our audio from a CD player's spitting back because of perceived "HF digital noise".
Not that - back at the time - I ever thought of putting such devices in series with my coffee machine ...
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« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2014, 10:48:35 pm »

With the time of Orelino delivery imminent here are my brief impressions on sound quality I heard first at Mani's and then Peter's.

Horn Sound In both cases the familiar characteristic horn sound was clearly evident. I don't really know how to describe it so I won't all I can say is that with all horns I have listened to previously it was not something I could live with. However Orelxxx is clearly the best horn implementation I have heard - and after a very short adjustment period I forgot about it - so no problems because of the other virtues (see below).

Bass Bass was very light at Mani's and was my biggest concern. Mani improved it substantially after Nick and I left as posted by Mani. However, at Peter's I also found the bass to be light. Certainly that was the biggest single worry because for me good quality and quantity of bass it totally essential to enjoy music. So why did I go for the Orelino's anyway? simple really the measurements show that the bass output of the Orelino's was "correct" but also it is very configurable. My feeling was that if I did not like it then I would fix it. However, from recent posts it seems that Peter may have fixed it anyway.

Rough a Bit Edgy I have to say I found particularly with Peter's system there was a tad rough presentation in the higher frequencies. My strong feeling is that a slick slipstreamed flow of electrons that have been stripped of noise (more to follow when I have my new speakers) before they enter the drivers is totally essential especially with a high sensitivity horn. Also I had misgivings about Peter's use of coax for line level inputs to the MkII's. That is something I have tried before and did not work for me at all (not at all!!). I am making tried and tested interconnects that I have used on many occasions and I know to be of impeccable performance. Notwithstanding this I quickly jump to Peters defence in that he has to use "things" of known and measurable performance so hi fi "cooking" is not and cannot be on Peter's agenda.

Imaging compared with what I normally hear imaging was not particularly good. We played an album I know very well and is IMHO very well recorded but it sounded recessed and very poor. This was almost certainly due to that fact that Peter's MkII's are very far apart - out of necessity as Peter and Ciska like to look out of their window!!. But anyway that is a minor point. I have no choice in my room they will be much closer together.

High Frequency Precision I nearly forgot to mention one concern I still have is the precision of high frequencies via the horn. It still sounds to me that the those precise high frequency sounds are a little diffuse in a horn. Certainly compared with the ribbon driver I currently use. Could it be a feature of a compression chamber. Not sure but I am hopeful that this will not be a problem. Or maybe horns show more detail I just dunnow. We will see.

So what did I like?

Voice singing voice was simply sensational easily and by a long way the best I have heard. Stripped of harmonic distortion (I assume) human voice sounded knock out to my ears.

Bass Speed & Quality again simply knock out the best I have heard anywhere. And with the correct weight in the bass (missing at the time I have to say) something special.



I think that about covers it. All in all I felt that there was sufficient in what I heard to make a decision and that any short falls in my expectations could be overcome by tweaking and setting up at home.




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« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2014, 01:04:04 am »


Bass Bass was very light at Mani's and was my biggest concern. Mani improved it substantially after Nick and I left as posted by Mani. However, at Peter's I also found the bass to be light. Certainly that was the biggest single worry because for me good quality and quantity of bass it totally essential to enjoy music. So why did I go for the Orelino's anyway? simple really the measurements show that the bass output of the Orelino's was "correct" but also it is very configurable.



In all live concerts (>50) , except one at a  "Return To Forever" performance (with a very high volume of appr. > 100dBA) , I had problems to hear the bass very clear. Other instruments, trumpets, saxes, guitars, cymbals were covering (overlapping) the bass.

IMO we are overestimating the proportion (weight) of a bass in most of the songs.

Joachim

* intensity_of_an_instrument.pdf (251.07 KB - downloaded 278 times.)
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« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2014, 10:42:29 am »

Joachim posted a PDF in his last post, but he did not mention it and I didn't see it at first. That's why here the contents :
(quite interesting)


* Instrument Loudness.png (384.31 KB, 712x930 - viewed 882 times.)
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« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2014, 11:43:00 am »

Quote
IMO we are overestimating the proportion (weight) of a bass in most of the songs.

I am staring at this for 15 minutes; something tells me that I can have a response with some sense, but it won't slip into my mind.
OK, it must go by means of an example :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUzknDfC_eQ

This is Ray Brown and Laurindo Almeida. If this works as it works here, you won't be able to hold your tears. So, careful.

This is of course with my poorly tuned "light weight" bass. Wink
Some background as how I perceive this : some shy girl without experience singing to the big guy who also isn't the very best (for steadyness on his bow).

When you tune this for real life loudness to the guitar (right speaker - just saying), the double bass (from left, haha), at the 3 minute point the bass is so "heavy" by means of the resin on the bow - and it is so slowly stroke, that the whole room vibrates just on the bouncing of the bow over the string. On estimate this is ~100dBSPL.

First thing : no single way that I see this working from any smallish woofer - also not 2 or 3 of them. No-way. It needs the "volume" and without that, if anything is going to shake it is your head thinking about money for new woofers.

When I listen to this at this level, I really see that Mr Brown in my room and envision that the level is real. The shaking of the room will also be real.
What seems unreal is how it is done. I mean, this hardly can be the bass's cabinet only and it first needs a room where the lot is in (so the room makes the sound). This shows somewhat by the guitar which is on the heavy side (I think).

Of course I still can't bring across what really happens when done well, but at least it is the most crazy badd ass example that I know of, and it is from an acoustic bass.
Matter of recording ... But 100% sure also a matter of how the performer is able to let bounce the bow like this in steady frequency (or distance if you like) because without that nothing much more happens than what we are used to.
Still to remember : no way any "normal" speaker will show a thing of this. It's plane brute force what is in order.

What I also can not explain to you is how in the world it is possible that this brute force low frequency on/off bouncing is able to remain separated without first filling the room with warbles. It just doesn't.

While *this* is about the recording, for an electric bass player it normally will be about the speaker he uses. Now things turn around (but actually come down to the same (subject)), now his speaker needs to be able to show this brute force with good resolution, and *that* does not happen. This in itself will be related to the level the whole band plays, and while the lead guitar and drums just play at "some" level which is capable for speakers, no bass can do that without super distortion. And there we go. It will shake the room, but that is from reverberation (longitudinal standing waves) and this is something else.

30 minutes further I am still not sure what to really say about this, except for that it varies very very much with the recording and whether we are able to run into gems like this.
Is it a gem ?
Please give it a try. And if you can't shake your room with it, then what ?
Then all is moot again, because we again can not communicate over it. Bad luck.

But also, and now it may get interesting, when this does not work out as it does over here, the whole idea of the song is lost. There still will be a shy girl, but no bad ass Ray Brown. Both play as poor and you could be disturbed by that. So now suddenly - and finally - a sheer technical merit will be capable of not holding your tears.

In the very end Joachim will be correct. Such things will not show easily from recordings because a bass is too hard to capture to begin with (can't be done well with close micing, and from the distance all gets "warbled"). So to some extend it indeed has to be about our expectations. If you'd hear this track in this place, you'd be cured forever.

Try it. It's worth while to begin with.
(I don't know the original by heart and whether that's (still) obtainable, but otherwise it's on the "Bass Power" album you see below.

Peter


* BassPower01.png (130.46 KB, 330x301 - viewed 834 times.)
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« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2014, 12:36:07 pm »

FYI... Cannot play, but it identifies the artists and the music...

http://www.allmusic.com/album/audios-audiophile-vol-2-bass-power-mw0000718972

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« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2014, 01:02:18 pm »

Quote
IMO we are overestimating the proportion (weight) of a bass in most of the songs.

I am staring at this for 15 minutes; something tells me that I can have a response with some sense, but it won't slip into my mind.
OK, it must go by means of an example :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUzknDfC_eQ

This is Ray Brown and Laurindo Almeida. If this works as it works here, you won't be able to hold your tears. So, careful.

This is of course with my poorly tuned "light weight" bass. Wink
Some background as how I perceive this : some shy girl without experience singing to the big guy who also isn't the very best (for steadyness on his bow).

When you tune this for real life loudness to the guitar (right speaker - just saying), the double bass (from left, haha), at the 3 minute point the bass is so "heavy" by means of the resin on the bow - and it is so slowly stroke, that the whole room vibrates just on the bouncing of the bow over the string. On estimate this is ~100dBSPL.




Hi Peter,

this recording is a good sample for arguments.

The acoustic bass generates a SPL between 70 and 94dB (see the table above), and in real life the SPL in the recording studio was not higher than appr. 90dB.

At the Ron Carter concert in Helsinki he was playing his bass with a bow string too, and we hear the resin sound and the very deep notes. The sound was pleasing without any distortions.

My assumption is, that the SPL of our "music listening" is too high.

At present I'm playing a bass recording from Brian Bromberg

http://www.amazon.com/Wood-Brian-Bromberg/dp/B000FQJPBO/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1409568335&sr=1-3&keywords=brian+bromberg

for my ears very loud, and the SPL at my listening place is around 65dBA (SPL level for a longer relaxing listening period), and the bass replay is perfect.

Joachim

Edit: typical SPL's in concert halls are 80 - 85dBA
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« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2014, 09:52:58 pm »

Quote
while you there (in the UK)  have stupid fuses in the mains cords ? Shouldn't you remove/shortcut those ?

Hey Peter - By coincidence I found out today that there are plans to change the way houses in the UK are wired. It seems that the IEE are at last considering getting rid of the mains ring approach and wiring houses like they do in (most) of the rest of Europe. The ring main is the reason plugs have fuses here in the UK they are required if there is a fault condition that could arise if the ring is broken. Maybe our hifi enthusiast children will end up with no plugs on their hi fi!!

Paul
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« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2014, 12:16:51 pm »

Some very big boxes just arrived!!!!



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« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2014, 12:31:55 pm »

Food for the ears Happy You must be excited !!!! I would be Happy
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 10:19:45 am by AlainGr » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2014, 12:45:49 pm »

Congratulations! But having gone through all of this myself, I have to say I don't envy you.

Enjoy setting up!

Mani.
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« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2014, 01:35:59 pm »

Congratulation,

as Mani wrote, but with strong assistants, some special refreshments and in anticipation of the final result it will be a piece of cake.

Joachim
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« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2014, 09:30:45 am »

Paul,

We know how keen you are in breaking open floors. But don't tell us that you are cementing back-in that door ?

Peter
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« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2014, 10:24:24 am »

By looking at these boxes, I imagine Santa trying to pass them through the chimney...  Shocked
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« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2014, 11:21:57 am »


It took me from 830am until 6pm to get the speakers unpacked in and working!  OK much of that was down to making the wiring neat and tidy but also I kept getting calls from work. They obviously did not realise the importance of this!!  Added to that I have a lump on my head after banging it on the edge of a table, two strained fingers from lifting my old speakers out and a wood splint in a finger from the Orelino packing cases. Other than that all went well.

And how does it sound? you will have to wait until later when I have more time write a post  Wink

Cheers

Paul



 
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« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2014, 10:06:00 pm »

I held back from posting about the sound of the Orelino's until my new babies and me got to know each other  Happy   Also I was apprehensive that I was going to go too far "overboard". But Mani has had a listen and so here goes.

So what do I think? in short WOW WOW they are stonking brilliant. I have not heard anything as good as this anywhere. Except maybe in a live unplugged concert with no speakers!

All my concerns about the bass evaporated as soon as I switched them on. They sound utterly different to both Peter and Mani's. More natural and life like - flowing natural bass. So why is that? we all have similar systems. It has to be the room  which should be an absolute dog for sound quality - everything is wrong about it - really!

The mid range is simply stellar the smoothest most natural liquid sound I have ever heard (and that includes very very expensive tube systems). BUT bybees are totally essential - I tried without but not for long!! Never before have I heard horns sound like this. Well actually they don't sound like anything - they sound like live music!! I AM A TOTAL CONVERT TO HORNS. Delicacy, tiny detail, dynamics, liquid natural sound. That is the lot of a horn lover (but only implemented like this maybe).

There was an edge to the sound initially but over the last two days that has all but gone as the system beds in. The sound has opened up and there are real people with real instruments in my room now.

I really do not get it with the bass. It would be easy to think that the room is reinforcing the bass region. But it cannot be as simple as that - I tried Bert's filter which lifts the bass fairly gently from 90 down to 25Hz and (in my room) it just thickens the sound and takes away the delicacy and accuracy in the bass. Out of interest I created a filter with less lift than Berts and even that spoilt the sound. Actually it spoils the overall sound not just the bass. So what I am saying is that with such small changes to the bass from filters what is the room doing? it must be subtle and it does not spoil the sound at all - in fact completely the opposite.

But what of tone? instruments sound completely natural. A double bass sounds like a double bass no bloating or smearing - it just sounds like a double bass but with the tiniest details revealed with the strings. The tiniest little breath taken by the performer is revealed.

Trumpets, sax it just goes on - so little colouration they all sound like real instruments. Piano is awesome all those natural overtones without smearing and distortion.

So while I get all excited really there is nothing to get excited about at all because the sound is just natural and lifelike - maybe getting excited is not what I will doing for long but just listening to music.

Imaging is excellent (and always was with previous speakers) and that is also ridiculous because in this room which is very live and reflective has a maximum delay between direct and reflected sound of just 4ms well below the minimum of 20 (ish) required for good imaging. So sound stage should be a mess but it just is not  scratching Not that sound stage bothers me much. Just saying!

When I was at Peter's I played an album I regard as being one of the very finest recordings. By Dick Olsher featuring Lesley Olsher. I played it at Peter's and sat there speechless it sounded dreadful - recessed and undynamic. I could not believe my ears. Peter scoffed and took it off immediately. But here Lesley Olsher is standing in the room and behind her in the conservatory are the instrumentalists. Sounding absolutely superb (I played it for Mani).

Just a note that my room always had standing waves and nothing has changed I still get those standing waves but significantly reduced. Except in the conservatory where there is the Mother of all bass reinforcements. Mani heard that as well.

I am listening with Peter's "as designed" bass filter and do not feel even slightly inclined to tweak it. Generally I listen with Fletcher Munson switches flat except for the mid which is down one notch. That seems the best overall but I do dial in different settings with some albums and on low (dinner eating) volume.

I will soon be trying 50 ohm  coax with 50 ohm connectors and will let you know how I get on!!

I tried to get a good picture but it is difficult without proper lighting - the speakers look much better than the attached picture suggests. I will get better pictures and post - watch this space.

Oh yes apart from a dog of a room acoustically the speaker centres are "just" 2m apart and I sit 6.5m away from them. And that is all totally wrong as well isn't it?

By the way Mani and I both prefer the deeper section of these Orelino's to the flatter section of the MkII's - just saying we feel that aesthetically they are easier on the eye.

Just after I bought these I started to regret I already had a great sounding system what on earth was I doing spending all that money when I was not even sure about the sound. I can tell you that I woke up in the early hours of the morning a couple of times in a cold sweat thinking about it. Turns out it could be one of my smarter decisions.

Paul  Happy Happy Happy Happy Happy Happy Happy Happy Happy Happy Happy Happy Happy Happy Happy Happy Happy

PS

Quote
hey, I always want to be right you know !

Now I forgive you Peter for always wanting to be right!!

Seriously Peter and Bert thanks for all your hard work!!






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« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2014, 10:56:01 pm »


Oh yes apart from a dog of a room acoustically the speaker centres are "just" 2m apart and I sit 6.5m away from them. And that is all totally wrong as well isn't it?




Hi Paul,

congratulations for the phantastic sound and your report.

The room and your listening place is an "enigma" smile, but it works.

Have a wonderful time with your amazing sound.

Joachim
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« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2014, 11:20:53 pm »

Hi Paul,

may I get details from this CD.

Dick Olsher featuring Lesley Olsher

Thanx

kind regards

Joachim
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« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2014, 08:40:53 am »

Hey Paul,

My first remark should go to the picture itself. What a beauty.
And if that is not photoshopped, then your camera is nicely off by some miles so now it looks so good. ha ha.
Or you put up some large red light somewhere ?

Yes, beautiful.
Peter
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W10-14393.0 - Oct 31, 2018 (2.10)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 10/20 cores) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 140.19  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2014, 11:26:28 am »

Quote
My first remark should go to the picture itself. What a beauty.

No photo shop involved if you are referring to the photo of the single speaker then I had the front white LED light from my bike resting on a banana (to lift it up a bit) out of sight behind the chair but in front of the speaker. The camera had a flash and I took a light reading out of the middle of the wings of the speaker so flash was on pretty much full power.

If you ask me why it looks nice then I would put it down to the banana!

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« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2014, 11:51:11 am »

hahahahaha
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XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 10/20 cores) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 140.19  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

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« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2014, 12:54:21 pm »

So Paul, congratulations it worked out man !
But you now tell a few things I like to check over here.

Quote
When I was at Peter's I played an album I regard as being one of the very finest recordings. By Dick Olsher featuring Lesley Olsher. I played it at Peter's and sat there speechless it sounded dreadful - recessed and undynamic. I could not believe my ears. Peter scoffed and took it off immediately. But here Lesley Olsher is standing in the room and behind her in the conservatory are the instrumentalists. Sounding absolutely superb (I played it for Mani).

First off, earlier on you surprised me as well about some observation you did not tell while being over here, and at least that appeared to be something from a dream. But never mind that, although of course it's on my mind. So ...
Never mind what I told about in "Mani's" thread, I don't recall this. Or do I ?
Heck, I know myself. If YOU would have told about a pristine recording which over here turns out to be the worst (up to me scoffing about it) then most 100% certainly we together would have sorted out the why, and we would have started changing settings. But we did not - not at all.

If course I did scoff about a record - sh*tty Elvis Costello stuff. OK, the "sh*tty" is a subjective opinion, but at least I recall that we were BOTH talking about this. And about my memory : when that was on we walked downstairs. Haha.

You know the stupid thing ? what I recall from your "music requests" is that they were all about good recordings. And "finally someone who is able to come up with fine test music instead of stupid ever Diana Krall's". I even told Bert about it - you can ask him.

And now you claim to have listened to one of these (sounding sh*t) without even discussing it ? OK, this latter is my conclusion and it is explicitly not what you are saying.
But I can also not imagine that you where here for more than one day, being totally unsatisfied (so to speak) and I forget every drop of that ?
Nope, my memory is too good for that - just saying.

This is not meant to be negative, but I do like to understand what's being said. I hope this is OK ?
So like Joachim asked - please give me the details of that recording. That is, if you are not afraid of hearing me back about this with a maybe completely different view on things than you just expressed about it. But of course, if all is right I will recognize it plus my scoffing about it. And THEN - and in the end it is all about that Paul ! - then I will see how to improve on it.
As you know, my Demo Gallery also contains the stuff wich does NOT play, so it can be improved upon. This one should be in there too - in the case the described situation is correct.

Sorry to be a bit (too much) pretentious, but with such kind of things I'm puzzled. And of course, if you hear something and are not honest about it (is a good recording and such but still sounds like sh*t) and pretend all is OK, then well, what to say (about the usefulness).
So, curious !!

On an actually more important note : Thank you for such a fine and detailed report Paul ! So nice to read ...
Best regards,
Peter
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« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2014, 01:10:19 pm »

Yo Paul, I realize I must emphasize this more :

*Of course* my memory won't be that good that I can recall all what I scoffed about. But it is not about that. It is about me not recalling that you told this and that should be a fine recording while it sounded like a drag. So it is a kind of guarantee that that did not happen ...

Peter
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« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2014, 02:10:44 pm »

Quote
And of course, if you hear something and are not honest about it (is a good recording and such but still sounds like sh*t) and pretend all is OK, then well, what to say (about the usefulness).
So, curious !!

I cannot remember exactly what we discussed about it not much IIRC. I simply asked you to put on the track I said it was a good recording and after a short listen you said something like "but it is so recessed" and clearly you did not like it because we moved quickly on. I did not comment further at the time because I was starting to question in my own mind if it actually was a good recording - after all this was Peter's reference system. So that is completely "honest". It was only when I heard it again on the Orelino's here that it became something worth mentioning.

But hey this is really an unimportant point.

Of course I remember discussing Elvis because I nearly tripped down the stairs ha ha!  and that reminds me I have not put on the Elvis test track from hell yet must do that tonight. Of course we both agree about sh***y Elvis recordings.

By the way you can find the Lesley Olsher ("Jazz Me") recording below if you want to hear how good vocals can sound with no hint of sibilance then this would always be the album I would put on. Because it was recorded in Dick Olshers home it has some quirkiness to the sound for example the piano sounds "woody".

http://www.blackdahlia.com/blackdahliamusic

It is an interesting site and there are details about how the recording was made actually at Dick Olsher's home!!

Also there are speaker kit instructions available on the site including the "BassZilla" which I toyed with the idea of making - glad I did not though.

By the way am I the only one that thinks that the Diana Krall are not particular brilliant recordings? They sound OK but there is sibilance on the vocals and just sound like a typical modern in your face recording to my ears.

Quote
But I can also not imagine that you where here for more than one day, being totally unsatisfied (so to speak)

Hey I bought the Orelino's how can I have been unsatisfied!!!

Cheers

Paul

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« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2014, 02:28:19 pm »

Thank you Paul. I will look into it.

Peter
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« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2014, 08:40:13 pm »

So about the Olsher album ...

I traced it down and at the 10th of July, 11:21 am we played this; can't see which track(s). With the notice that this was your second day Paul, I can not imagine the slightest that this has been about SQ or whatever. But who knows ...
Fact is : I just listened to all the tracks in there for more or less minutes and ALL are the best imaginable. So open and so well recorded. Okay, maybe things have changed (like listening through the BNC IC's) but still.

So that's it. I have to believe you but at least at this moment I can't imagine it and "today" I also will not agree that this is "bad" or something; the very contrary !

Obviously the night before at least I consumed too much of stuff which *will* have caused a certain level of delirium at my side the next day. So we can stick to that. If you can do the same, that's it and it's 1:1. Of course this was no so for that football match which puts me in the minority.

ha ha

Peter

PS: The Vuelta seems more interesting these days than the Tour de France; watch out for "general acceptance" next year(s).
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« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2014, 09:05:35 pm »

Quote
Fact is : I just listened to all the tracks in there for more or less minutes and ALL are the best imaginable.

Glad you agree. Also I should have pointed out I was feeling slightly "jaded" and so probably did not have my best listening ears on!!!

The Tour has lost much of its magic. Vuelta is always good more individual efforts almost as though the cyclists are winding down after the tour and just in it to enjoy some end of season racing. I really enjoyed the Tour of Britain there was some great racing this year. It came close to us (near Henley) so about 10 of us from the local cycling club went up to watch. Great fun the cyclists came and whoosh they were gone. Just saw Wiggo though.

Next year a group of us are thinking about doing Milan San Remo which is about 290k in one day. We need a big Peleton to get enough speed to do it in a day. It is pretty much flat. Anyone interested?

Cheers

Paul
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