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Author Topic: Cables with BNC Connectors/Adapters Are Generating A Superoir SQ  (Read 165039 times)
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christoffe
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« on: September 07, 2014, 12:50:26 am »

Hi Peter,
another homepage  “stumbled” across my eyes in the internet.

For information the link for us „Krauts“ in this forum
http://www.audiophil-online.de/themen/bnc-stecker.html
and
the homepage of the German manuf.  Phonosophie ( a reputated name  in the HiFi scene) http://www.phonosophie.de/International/everbindung3.html

In general  Phonosophie recommends to attach BNC adapters  to the  RCA connectors  for a better SQ.

So I rummage around my surplus for a 50Ohm BNC cable and appropriate 50Ohm RCA/BNC adapters bought 3 years ago.

After the exchange of the cables (between the NOS1 and the power amp)  I was quite shocked. My brain tells me (hearing an old Herbie Hancock record) there are a hell of distortions. Changing to one of my test records the same impression but with much more details in the beginning, and after a while it dawned to me, there are overtones never heard before.

To make long stories short:

1)   This cable with the BNC connector is “merciless” to your whole setup, and will reveal a wrong setup of the speakers (placement of the speaker in the room).
2)   Cymbals are more detailed
3)   Bass is amazing without any distortions down to the low frequencies. I hear the Stanley Clarkes bass on the record “Romantic Warrior” as I remember it from a  “Return To Forever” concert in 2010. ( http://www.amazon.co.uk/Returns-Chick-Corea-Return-Forever/dp/B001HPGRSQ/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1410041716&sr=8-12&keywords=return+to+forever%2C+live )
4)   More air between the instruments
5)   Less distortions over all frequencies.
6)   I had to "readjust" my speakers. (to turn them more to the sweet spot/listening place)

I heard the “seagull” record new. ( this tune is one of the best recordings with an amazing 3D image)

I do believe that this cable is something for our English tweak freaks. ( I used an ordinary Dartzeel 50 Ohm BNC cable (coaxial) for computer connections - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_cable )

Regards

Joachim
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CoenP
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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2014, 01:19:58 am »

Hi Jachim,

I am Reading correctly that you are running the NOS into 50 ohms? Or is it just extra plugs rca-Bnc * 50 ohm cable *Bnc-rca?

Regards, Coen
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christoffe
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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2014, 01:31:31 am »

Hi Jachim,

I am Reading correctly that you are running the NOS into 50 ohms? Or is it just extra plugs rca-Bnc * 50 ohm cable *Bnc-rca?

Regards, Coen

Hi Coen,

rca-Bnc * 50 ohm cable *Bnc-rca

= correct

The adapter has a resistance of 50Ohms too.

Joachim

Edit: When I'm reading the first sentences here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coaxial_cable#Choice_of_impedance
everything should be ok.

I had to increase due to the 50Ohms the XXH volume from -31,5 to -28,5 for the same SPL.

Edit II: Note to Mani - this BNC cable, details and photo later today, might help to place the NOS1 + PC outside of the listening room without a degeneration of the SQ.
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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2014, 07:45:44 am »

Edit II: Note to Mani - this BNC cable, details and photo later today, might help to place the NOS1 + PC outside of the listening room without a degeneration of the SQ.

Hi Joachim, I'm very interested in this. Please share the details when you have some time.

Mani.
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christoffe
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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2014, 10:41:42 am »

Hi,
attached a photo of the BNC cable (everybody knows this type)
Make: Huber + Suhner – http://www.hubersuhner.com/en-CH/Home
Type: K08852 K_02232 T; item no. 521 165 - from the year 2006  (type + item no. has been changed)

EDIT: This is a high temperature coax cable with a double screen - design strand-7, colour=brown, see
http://literature.hubersuhner.com/Technologies/Radiofrequency/RFCablesEN/?page=48

The cable was assembled by Dartzeel and is quite expensive. In 2005 the price of a 5m stereo run was around € 2000,00.  It will be much cheaper to buy it in a special shop elsewhere and to assemble it on our own.

The losses within this cable are over a distance of more than 500m insignificant.

Joachim

P.S. I went to bed at 6.30AM this morning, the music was that engaging. (my wife is in London for a visit with friends)


* Huber+Suhner K08852.jpg (125.46 KB, 1000x1333 - viewed 998 times.)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 11:40:29 pm by christoffe » Logged
Scroobius
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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2014, 10:53:21 am »

Hi Joachim - very interesting I read about this a couple of years ago and filed under "must try that" but forgot. Just in time to try with my new Orelino's which are due this week. As the benefit is to reduce/remove reflections in the cable then using BNC/RCA converters probably will not have much adverse impact.

Nice one!

Cheers

Paul
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christoffe
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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2014, 11:39:45 am »


As the benefit is to reduce/remove reflections in the cable then using BNC/RCA converters probably will not have much adverse impact.


Hi Paul,

Phonosophie performed listening tests with the same type of cable (not that type I grabbed by accident), one cable with RCA connectors and then the other one with BNC + adapter, which was superior.

See the picture of the upper cable on that link.  http://www.phonosophie.de/International/everbindung3.html

The difference of  the "characteristic wave impedance"  of the cable and the RCA/BNC adapter shall be nearly identical due to possible "energy turbulences" at that connection. "So their weak explanation."

I used this same cable with the RCA/BNC adapter with a WEISS DAC a couple of years ago (preNOS1 times) and the improvement of the SQ was audible, but not that dramatic as it is now.

Joachim
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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2014, 11:58:48 am »

Make: Huber + Suhner – http://www.hubersuhner.com/en-CH/Home
Type: K08852

Thanks Joachim. Well, I can't find this exact cable anywhere. But what I did find was a pair of 3.4m Huber + Suhner 50 Ohm BNC cables and some 50 Ohm BNC-RCA adaptors. I've ordered all this for about €200 - so not a lot of money to at least give them a go. If I like the result, I'll look into getting a nice pair of 10m cables so I can hopefully keep the NOS1 in my basement.

Thanks again for the suggestion.

Cheers, Mani.
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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2014, 01:00:05 pm »

Make: Huber + Suhner – http://www.hubersuhner.com/en-CH/Home
Type: K08852

But what I did find was a pair of 3.4m Huber + Suhner 50 Ohm BNC cables and some 50 Ohm BNC-RCA adaptors. I've ordered all this for about €200,-

Hi Mani,

that's a very good price. (no snake oil)

Joachim


EDIT I: This is a high temperature coax cable with a double screen - design strand-7, see
http://literature.hubersuhner.com/Technologies/Radiofrequency/RFCablesEN/?page=48

Edit II: The only explanation for the big difference of the SQ is, that there are more HF emissions (mobiles, wifi etc.) around us than as we are anticipating.

EDIT III: For Arguments of the improvement of the SQ see Reply #5 from Paul too!!!
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 02:25:47 pm by christoffe » Logged
PeterSt
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« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2014, 07:18:37 pm »

Joachim,

Will you never ever put up such a thing - a thing which really makes my blood running - on a Sunday when nothing can be obtained/ordered ?

Thank you.
Peter
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« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2014, 08:57:19 pm »

Will you never ever put up such a thing - a thing which really makes my blood running - on a Sunday when nothing can be obtained/ordered ?

Huh? What makes your blood boil? The suggestion to use a 50 Ohm coaxial cable with BNC/RCA adapters, or the fact that Joachim made the suggestion on a Sunday? The former I have no opinion about (until my cables arrive), but the latter makes no sense - surely the internet is open on a Sunday.

What am I missing? Some sort of Dutch joke that only our German friends would understand? Nah, can't be.

Mani.
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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2014, 09:02:24 pm »

Joachim,

Will you never ever put up such a thing - a thing which really makes my blood running - on a Sunday when nothing can be obtained/ordered ?

Thank you.
Peter


Ha, ha

as an audiophile freak I'm used to "Rock Around The Clock" seven days a week. By the way, it's Tuesday and did you order?

This cable/connector combination produces a right/left separation as heard in the beginning with W8 and the optimal listening position is the sweet spot (edit: as always) now. Prior to the installation of that cable it was possible to listen with a satisfying result in "off axis" positions.

Joachim


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christoffe
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« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2014, 09:26:25 pm »

Will you never ever put up such a thing - a thing which really makes my blood running - on a Sunday when nothing can be obtained/ordered ?

What am I missing? Some sort of Dutch joke that only our German friends would understand? Nah, can't be.

Mani.


Thank you Mani,
but I think Peter was annoyed (frustrated) only, that he had no such cable in his garage/storage on a SUNDAY.

we Germans are "special" with jokes, and are not understanding these pretentious jokes with the fine nuances from the English people. I like their humor.

I see translated (synchronized) films of Inspector Barnaby very often, and their dialogues are for us Germans that "upper-crust". Great! good

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midsomer_Murders


Joachim
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« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2014, 09:57:27 pm »

we Germans are "special" with jokes, and are not understanding these pretentious jokes with the fine nuances from the English people. I like their humor.

I had a German friend at University who was adamant that 'The Life of Brian' was funnier dubbed ("synchronized") into German than it was in its original English. I cry with laughter whenever I watch this film in English, so it's probably just as well that I can't speak, and therefore can't watch it in, German.

Mani.
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« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2014, 09:57:45 pm »

Quote
surely the internet is open on a Sunday.

Yes ?

Quote
(until my cables arrive),

Oh ?

See ?
I have mine.
By now.
Finally.
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« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2014, 10:28:51 pm »

Joachim,

It took me 3 seconds to know that you were right in every aspect.

Then I thought to bring some news :

Quote
This cable/connector combination produces a right/left separation as heard in the beginning with W8 and the optimal listening position is the sweet spot (edit: as always) now. Prior to the installation of that cable it was possible to listen with a satisfying result in "off axis" positions.

But because of my more or less challening post you now were ahead of me.
So the emphasis is the most (strange) occurring aspect actually. After two minutes I asked Ciska "what's the change ?". -> Hmm ... more fresh ?
I said "no, come here in the middle and listen".

There's a stereo effect I am not aware of that it can happen.
In addition, and this was the very first I noticed, the "Windows 8 plane" of where the sound springs from has vanished. It's just everwhere.
And indeed, I really don't need to listen to the seagulls to know the now "super effect".

All the time of the past 3 hours or so I was thinking "can I survice until 6:01am ?". But I will save it for the next couple of days. Completely amazing.

Joachim, apologies that I did not respond right away (while you addressed me). But is was all so logical to me that I *had* to try it first, actually knowing what the result would be;
This is about (eliminating) reflections and that only; like Paul said (and the German text btw). It is too stupid not to think of it myself.

So, the very first time I got excited about cables. Still 1$ btw. yesyes
And there will be more of this, I'm sure; Just spent 16 hours of "research" on it. But part 2 is a bit more difficult.
And part 1b. swoon

Of course your hint already existed, Joachim. But I think this is from eras (or contexts) from more ancient history where things were different from how they are today.
Today it is just the best what could happen in 2014.
Or ?

Super thanks.
And a promise - no, guarantee : this will lead to so much more ...

Best regards and the 2014 prize for you, Joachim,
Peter
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XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores) @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *30*/-/*1*/*1*/*1*/ Q1Factor = *40* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *15ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.90*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / *OSD Off* / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Custom Filtering Highest for 705600* / Always Clear Proxy before Playbck = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (*8ms*) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

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« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2014, 11:00:25 pm »

Hi Peter,

ok, my wife heard the improvement of the SQ after her return from London immediately.

Joachim
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« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2014, 11:50:19 pm »

R u guys kidding us?

Correct me if I'm wrong but 2 adapaters, 50 ohms each that's a load of 25 ohms for the NOS1(a), output and terminating impedance not taken into consideration. You are just listening to the extra distortion of the output stage. I have speakers here with a higher impedance.

You must have had a loss of gain.

It could work but what impedance was the NOS designed for? Irrc most audio cables and RCAs are about 75 ohm, terminate both sides with that and you will eliminate reflections as well.

Please don't think I am sceptic about the idea, it was on my todo list as well but the output stage needs to be designed for it.

regards, Coen
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« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2014, 12:33:21 am »


R u guys kidding us?


Hi Coen,

I'm not an electrician and - yes, we are I'm kidding, because I'm now on "cloud 9" with an amazing SQ!!!

For the test with the adapter I took a spare BNC cable, which was designed for a 50Ohm connection between the Dartzeel pre- and poweramp. This cable is double shielded and had a positive audible impact compared to the RCA connection between those two amps.

The NOS1 output impedance is acc. to the datasheet 33Ohm. Edit: The volume setting of XXH is the same as with the former RCA cable for my prefered SPL. Setting is/was -33 to - 31,5.

My advice is, buy this double shielded BNC cable  + adapter (cost appr. €300,00) install it and listen. You will not believe it, what you hear.

I daresay, if you want to improve the SQ with the same beneficial effect to your present audio chain, you have to invest in one of your components additional > € 5000,00 on top, at least!!!

kind reagrds

Joachim

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« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2014, 02:20:46 am »

So what about those of us who are fully balanced? Are there any lessons here that can be applied to XLR?
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« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2014, 07:55:48 am »

So what about those of us who are fully balanced? Are there any lessons here that can be applied to XLR?

Hi,

it seems that the double shielded cable (note from Paul + Peter) has the major impact (influence) to the SQ.
I found a sample picture (see the lower one) how to assemble such a XLR connection with that cable. Please get in touch with an expert and ........ .

http://www.mediacollege.com/audio/connection/xlr-rca-1.html

You are the first guy to test such a cable with the XLR connector.

kind regards

Joachim
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« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2014, 08:18:40 am »

So what about those of us who are fully balanced? Are there any lessons here that can be applied to XLR?

I have been thinking about this Todd, but no real other solution than what Joachim's connection scheme shows. However, not like that, but with using 50 Ohm "terminators" again (the adaptors). It will be up to you whether you net gain on it. I'd say yes, but which also depends on the length of the interlink.
Regarding length, the 75 Ohm solution would be better, but this is all to try out because 75 Ohm can't be as optimal as 50 Ohm (for exactness of the match with cable and connector).

As we will see, this is only the beginning ...
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« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2014, 08:30:34 am »

Hi Joachim, Peter

toddn has FULLY balanced system, meaning his amplifier input is balanced one, not single end (RCA). Why would he go BAL / UNBAL route ?

George
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« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2014, 08:53:29 am »

I also use amps with balanced inputs.  Exciting to see where this will go...

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« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2014, 08:58:53 am »

George,

Try to change attitude. Not that you behave so badly (haha) but try to put to your mind that nothing is absolute.

Especially in electrical design a 100 decisions can be taken to go from A to B. The decision for A determines most of the path to go to B. Or the other way around, the decision to WANT B determines what A can be. You think the latter which takes out all the options.

Say that in two very same situations you can choose for XLR or RCA. XLR will be the better one. Right ? Well, even that is not necesserily true because if the situations are really the same, XLR will have 6dB more output. For example with your NOS1 this is the case (so, the 6dB more *input* to the amp determines the more output). This means that the digital attenuation has to be set differently (assuming no preamp of course) and *that* already influences SQ.
We can neglect such a phenomenon, but all matters. So it is just an example at micro level, while at the more impacting level the examples also exist.

What we have at hand here is such a more impacting example. Why ? because 50 Ohm etc. termination for XLR does not exist. Not that we wouldn't be able to make it ...
So think "no connectors" and all options are open.

Example in the same realm is the two extra connectors we need for this at this moment; there's no single brain cell in me that thought about that being detrimental. Oh, it will be undoubtedly, but the advantage of the elimination of the reflections outweights it inifitely.

Thus, change attitude. Happy
Peter
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XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores) @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *30*/-/*1*/*1*/*1*/ Q1Factor = *40* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *15ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.90*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / *OSD Off* / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Custom Filtering Highest for 705600* / Always Clear Proxy before Playbck = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (*8ms*) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2014, 08:59:23 am »

R u guys kidding us?

Maybe ...

Quote
It could work but what impedance was the NOS designed for?

Funny, but you could say "nothing" because all will work with 33 Ohm output impedance. This is exactly why ...

Quote
Correct me if I'm wrong but 2 adapaters, 50 ohms each that's a load of 25 ohms for the NOS1(a), output and terminating impedance not taken into consideration.

... I never thought about THAT. Instead I've been keen only to get this to work as soon as possible.

Quote
You are just listening to the extra distortion of the output stage. I have speakers here with a higher impedance.

You must have had a loss of gain.

A double no-way. Coincidentally (or not, because Joachim anncounced such a thing) I payed attention to that, but no. And, I couldn't imagine that either, because it doesn't work like that. For that matter (indeed) my old 75 Ohm setup would have attenuated more. But this was "open ended". So, with the setup as of now this is "terminated" and things could be different.

And because there is no way that I am listening to distortion now suddenly, it will be my nice task to find out why this works so much for the better. I really must dive into it, but a first idea I have is that there now will be a 50 Ohm - 100K relation between the *end* of the interlink and the amplifier. Don't ask me what that does for net effect at this moment. Similarly the 33 Ohm - 50 Ohm relation close to the DAC will do something but what is to find out.
I'd have to look a long way back, but IIRC there's 80mA of current output.

When the above is combined with a cable with no loss now, possibly this can explain why it only works for the better.
To keep in mind (but correct me when I'm wrong), when reflections are (fully !) eliminated this is not only about distortions not happening (new signal gets mixed with old signal -> a few ns propagation time through the cable back and forth), but such "mix" of signal also attenuates (cancel out). And creates standing waves. All in the cable I mean.
A bit more on this in a next post.

Peter



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XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores) @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *30*/-/*1*/*1*/*1*/ Q1Factor = *40* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *15ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.90*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / *OSD Off* / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Custom Filtering Highest for 705600* / Always Clear Proxy before Playbck = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (*8ms*) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
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*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2014, 09:35:36 am »

About what I perceive from it at the more "measurement" level ...

So, always my standing waves subject. You know, my means to "measure" whether things are right or wrong. Notice that this is largely about buzzing sounds for certain frequencies.
Of course I always talked (implied) acoustical standing waves, but you must realize that once we can make the buzzing less by means of a better source, it can't be about acoustical standing waves. OK ?
So it is *always* about electrical (electronic) implications.

As a sort of conincidence, or luck for our current subject, I am listening to my latest "Want some Bass" DSP settings for the Orelo MKII speaker;
It will be obvious that any "more bass" will also be more critical for the standing waves phenomenon. Do notice though that in my case this is not about "how more lower the frequency the more standing waves will occur" and that this is merely about buzzing as such, where buzzing can be at 100Hz or 150Hz or 350Hz etc. etc. So, 40Hz does never buzz as such (it's too slow). A fly buzzes.

With the current DSP setting, this buzzing is not always immediately apparent when you are in the listening room; you need to go outside of the listening room for that. And, what I always say : if outside you perceive a live band playing, all is fine. And how (when) does that happen ? when the frequencies remain even - in balance.

With my latest "Want some Bass" speaker setting, this was not 100%. I could notice it in the room here and there, but it did not disturb me. The more bass just made me happy enough to leave it be, although each time I hear something buzz I know it is not right.
But now go to the toilet. yes

So a few doors further and it makes me want to take some analyser with me in there because it is there (or then) where you can exactly hear all the jumping out frequencies and actually continuously. Say something like 12dB more loud than what the normal balance would imply. Thus really so much that an analyser would easily show it, and right away you would know what to attenuate. But I am not into room correction and all what I really get from it is that something is wrong in the base. Still it only happens with my more emphasized bass settings. So easy to think it is me with wrong settings or a speaker which can't cope with them. Still strange because I see no relation with the frequencies I hear jump out.

Logical, when they spring from the source. swoon
Source this time = interlink.
So easy : standing waves in the interlink (and don't you think this can not happen !).

Of course easy to say afterwards, after noticing that with this cable I could stay in the toilet forever without being annoyed by anything. It's only that I didn't bring my beer, so ...


Btw, bass is only way more than before. And oh, this is such a situation that everything is way more (recognize ?). Also totally easy to feel on ... ?
the woofers of course. Much much more control as it feels (more stiff/firm movements).

Peter
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Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
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*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2014, 10:05:07 am »

Of course easy to say afterwards, after noticing that with this cable I could stay in the toilet forever without being annoyed by anything. It's only that I didn't bring my beer, so ...

Hahaha, this got me going.

Does all this mean that standing waves could be inside speaker cabling too?
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« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2014, 11:03:04 am »

Yes. Or at least I far away already throught about tackling that too - somehow. But next thing I thought of : I have no speaker cables. Yes, the internal wiring; too short to be bothered about.

Peter
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« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2014, 12:27:21 pm »

Quote
And because there is no way that I am listening to distortion now suddenly, it will be my nice task to find out why this works so much for the better. I really must dive into it, but a first idea I have is that there now will be a 50 Ohm - 100K relation between the *end* of the interlink and the amplifier. Don't ask me what that does for net effect at this moment. Similarly the 33 Ohm - 50 Ohm relation close to the DAC will do something but what is to find out.
I'd have to look a long way back, but IIRC there's 80mA of current output.

two adapters: terminated at both ends with 50 ohms. That's a properly terminated transmission line. Mind you that the imperfect 75ohm RCAs are still in service (!).

Here's one for you: what about the shift from a capacitive to a resistive load for the NOS's output?

With a terminating load of 100kOhms and a cable capacitance of 60pF the cable capacitance starts to dominate from 1/(2*pi*R*C) = 26,5 KHz. No doubt this will do something for the phase of the signal. Now with a 50 ohm resistance this will be 2000 times higher (MHz), with 25 ohms 4000 times.....

regards, Coen
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« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2014, 04:56:53 pm »

Hey Coen,

I'm afraid I need a couple of hints here. I mean, I don't see what you're getting at and the sense I get from it is (was) negative (derived from previous post(s)). From your last post I must derive a positive sense ??
Am I wrong ?

Quote
Mind you that the imperfect 75ohm RCAs are still in service (!).

Unimportant I think because not part of the capacitive load. And resistive (if any) ? Also unimportant (it is about what happens in the cable)

Quote
what about the shift from a capacitive to a resistive load for the NOS's output?

I am not 100% sure at this moment whether we can say that. But what would be true is that the capacative (varying) load is out of the equation ?
So this is what I assume for now and this is where the positive properties start. But whether you try to calculate the influence of a "filter" or not, it is not about that at all ...
And what it is *is* about in my view, looks to be to good to be true. So I'm probably wrong on that (but it would be the explanation).

I have prepared a few texts for some possible insight with the clear notice that I don't know all about all. Cool
So, positive or negative, Coen ?

Peter
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« Reply #31 on: September 10, 2014, 06:20:37 pm »

-Quote-
Characteristic Impedance

Characteristic impedance is a high-frequency phenomenon that is a function of the "distributed" R, L and C (inductance and capacitance per unit length). Characteristic impedance Z0 is calculated as (Lu/Cu)1/2 . Lu and Cu are inductance and capacitance per unit length. From the Z0 equation, you can see that Z0 is independent of the length of the cable, the frequency and the resistance. This behavior holds true only if the wavelength of the frequencies on the cable is much shorter than the transit time of a signal from one end of the cable to the other. When this is true, the characteristic impedance will stay relatively constant regardless of the length of the cable and the cable will exhibit "transmission-line-effects". In general, if an event is so fast that it completes a significant voltage transition before it is noticed at the far end of the cable, this will cause transmission-line-effects to occur. Transit times are very short for typical audio cables. For example, a 20 foot speaker cable has a transit time of around 40 nanoseconds. In order for transmission-line-effects to occur on this cable, signals at frequencies above 25MHz must be present. This is orders of magnitude higher than audio frequencies. Therefore, transmission-line-effects and characteristic impedance are definitely second-order effects on audio cables, however resonance may play more significant part than previously imagined and this relates to termination of the characteristic impedance.

-Unquote-

Original text see here:

http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/audio-faqs/should-i-match-impedances
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« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2014, 06:45:09 pm »

Impedance Matching

comment from the manuf. NuFOrce see:

https://www.nuforce.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=635:impedance-matching

Edit:
For a mechanical guy the above explanation, identical found on other homepages too (ratio source/load = 1:10), is quite sufficient. The (my) combination NOS1 and power amp satisfies this ratio and I do not have to increase the XXH volume.
I hear no distortions in the highs and lows, they are better than before. The “clicks” on the cymbals are better to follow and the bass is very tight (no wobblings and rumble at the subwoofer anymore).


Joachim
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« Reply #33 on: September 10, 2014, 10:36:20 pm »

Quote
So, positive or negative, Coen ?

What about both? Wink!

I do think that distortion -for a 'voltage source'  output- will increase with current; at least that's what I've seen in most amp/preamp test reports. Is this audible or important? That's another question. You must be able to measure this.

BTW this is the 'impedance mismatch' Joachim pointed out in his last post, like my tube phono output preamp playing into 25 ohm with gross distortion (way to much current needed), loss of gain and HF (high output impedance) and finally loss of LF (too small output caps).

No doubt either that the phase angle of the output load has an influence on the performance of the DAC's output opamps. These must be in some feedback arrangement (Inverted or not) which will be sensitive to phase twists. This corresponds with anecdotal evidence on this forum that lower capacitance cables sound better.
A rule of thumb 1:10 ratio, that would mean a happy NOS1 at a load of 330 ohms?

The point where cable capacitance becomes important in this setting is determined by the load at the end of the cable.
Now we shift the frequency by increasing the load (=lowering the resistance) this point is moved at least three decades upwards, making the load for the DAC resistive for the whole audioband.
This is the good stuff, again: is it measurable and important? I don't know it's audibility is speculative but plausible.

Unlike for the very high frequencies, audio signals encounter the plain parallel cable capacitance and series inductance (which is very small) and not the characteristic impedance. Joachim's snip points this out clearly. This should be taken care of in USB transmission lines for instance (proper termination, short cable?).
Yet there could still be HF energy in the relevant spectrum on the DAC's output that would remain undamped in a normal setup potentially causing unwanted interference.

I see enough good stuff to offset the bad so in the end you can call me positive Happy.

regards, Coen
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« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2014, 12:54:41 am »

Hi,

I was searching the internet with the following keywords:

"impedance matching preamp power amp"

and there are tons of informations, most of them "driving" in the same direction.

In Audio no "impedance matching" is necessary. (in general: source [DAC] impedance shall be very low + load impedance [power amp] shall be much higher, more > 1:10)

The best article for "mechanics" I found is here:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan03/articles/impedanceworkshop.asp


Joachim
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« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2014, 08:25:42 am »

Before we all drift off in the wrong direction, I think this was "wrong" :

R u guys kidding us?

Correct me if I'm wrong but 2 adapaters, 50 ohms each that's a load of 25 ohms for the NOS1(a), output and terminating impedance not taken into consideration. You are just listening to the extra distortion of the output stage. I have speakers here with a higher impedance.

You must have had a loss of gain.

It could work but what impedance was the NOS designed for? Irrc most audio cables and RCAs are about 75 ohm, terminate both sides with that and you will eliminate reflections as well.

Please don't think I am sceptic about the idea, it was on my todo list as well but the output stage needs to be designed for it.

regards, Coen

So if my amplifier is 100K, the impedance relation is 33 - 100000 and this is not related to some 75 Ohm or 50 Ohm under way. And if it is, it is about the difference between the normal 75 Ohm and the now 50 Ohm.
Do not relate this to the output impedance of 33 Ohm of the NOS1.

N.b.: Nobody tells that any interlink is 75 Ohm, but the connectors hope they are. Happy (but they will not ever be).
*My* interlink was 75 Ohm alright, but that's coindicence (not of course but I use coax, so I can know - do you ?).

Peter (will try to come up with some more)
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Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

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*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2014, 08:37:33 am »

I do think that distortion -for a 'voltage source'  output- will increase with current; at least that's what I've seen in most amp/preamp test reports. Is this audible or important? That's another question. You must be able to measure this.

BTW this is the 'impedance mismatch' Joachim pointed out in his last post, like my tube phono output preamp playing into 25 ohm with gross distortion (way to much current needed), loss of gain and HF (high output impedance) and finally loss of LF (too small output caps).

Coen, allow me ... You seem to put things upside down. But I know, this can be "language". So, "will increase with current" or "needs more current" ? I'd say the latter, and this is quite the opposite (BUT, it can be literally what you say just the same, but then you needs to examplain a couple of things !).
And "way too much current needed". I'd say "way too few current available" which again is something different.

It feels like some lecture is boiling up, but it is not quite on the top of your head yet. And oh, no lectures in my head anyway - just saying (again). Happy Happy

But I will try a few things more ...
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« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2014, 09:03:23 am »

Ok Peter,

The 33ohm output impedance is the result of a series resistor? That makes my cable capacitance point somewhat less relevant.

Regards, Coen
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Set of Clarixa, Intona, Phasure NOS1a-75B USB (buf 4 ms)-> Blaxius ->SE EL95 (0,8W triode) + MiniDSP/T.amp3000-> biwired QED cable-> Bastanis Mandala Duo.

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« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2014, 09:06:50 am »

Yes.
And no on the latter remark.
swoon
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*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2014, 09:07:13 am »

Quote
BTW this is the 'impedance mismatch' Joachim pointed out in his last post,

Gentlemen,

We must be very cautious not to dig such stupid texts as that from NuForce. This is just "copying from the internet" behaviour
1:10 - nice (but at least now you understand how I said yesterday that I don't bother about 33 Ohm because ALL will "match" that).

No, this is BS.

Because Joachim linked to an Empirical Audio page, I can do that too :
http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/audio-faqs/are-cable-resonances-real
Don't try to understand this - just digest and see what kind of things play a role. Not "may play", they just do.
And now envision that we talk about this in this topic.

Btw, "impedance matching" does not exist. Try to get that from this link I gave.

Peter
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« Reply #40 on: September 11, 2014, 09:24:59 am »

We must think out of the box. Or maybe not, but the box where our lecture is in, is not one. Just look into that link from my last post and if you can get somewhat of it, you can already see that a couple of things are not solvable for the amplifier-speaker relation, while we think we can solve it for a DAC (pre)amplifier relation, while we KNOW it has been solved for e.g. communications networks.
Now what.

Because it was said, think about USB as such "communication network". Must be 90 Ohm (2x 45 Ohm (differential) actually) and all is right. All ? Yes, for the purpose. This is about the frequency, the voltage and the current. All is here in a fairly small "bandwidth" (because all is a given).

If you, for fun, would look what's actually better for our interlinks, 50 Ohm or 75 Ohm, it will be very hard to find an answer because there's too many trees to see the forest (this is Dutch). You, all over the place, will run into smart remarks like "75 Ohm is for video and 50 ohm is 'enough'". This is all bandwidth related and (obviously I hope) video requires a higher bandwidth. Similarly you may run into "can I use a digital interconnect for analogue". Answer will be often Yes, but nothing is worked out further because why to do it anyway "because it will be over-rated".

Let me tell you in between the lines : All I do (and you don't see much of that anyway) is about over-rating. This will remain so as long as we can detect audible differences which can't be measured anyway (or we don't know how to, but that's the same). Partly this is related to how ultra high frequencies can play roles and those frequencies can not be measured (can be GHz range).

Contradiction :
While most you will run into is about "we don't need that bandwidth for audio", we better think the other way around :
When these high frequencies are let loose things might go wrong so we better use (e.g.) a cable with less bandwidth so it nicely filters that out.
Remember : cables filter (see Coen's equation about the 26.5KHz for example, and don't be bothered about the truth of it - it is just there one way or the other).

Where was I ? Thinking out of the box. We HAVE to because there is no box for us, never mind we thought there was one. Ok, there is one, for class 1. That says "use 1:10 and you're good". But now WHY and in what situations does it count ?

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« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2014, 09:31:06 am »

Quote
BTW this is the 'impedance mismatch' Joachim pointed out in his last post,

Btw, "impedance matching" does not exist.


Hi Peter,

all this are "keywords"  for a search within BING or Google. They were discussing this theme in the forums of CA + Audiogon too.

Joachim

EDIT:
If we are looking for a problem in the internet with keywords, we get thousands of informations, and 99,9% are not covering our search.
So we have to filter, and we will find in one article a paragraph or sentence for our problem only, and this goes on and on and on and in the end the “puzzle” is completed.
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« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2014, 09:50:47 am »

For a cable, all is about reflections (well, on PCB traces this counts just the same, but we ususally don't "see" that). The Empirical Audio page names it "Resonance" but it really is the same.

Again saying that I don't know all (hence I too can't go into all the details when the chips are down) you can take it from me that a signal must be damped at the other end (the receiving end) and that (indeed) this is a function of L, C and R (induction, capacitance and resistance). These are properties of a cable and when the whole of the cable complies to the same outcome (which would be Z, the impedance) then the signal will be 100% damped at the other end. Damped = No reflections.

It is here where we can easily get lost in our audio interlinks, because it is not taken into account that such a thing can exist. This, while in the pre-era of UTP Ethernet cabling, all was about coax and of various protocols. Btw, cable TV still is. And always and ever this is about one thing only : proper termination.

For metter imagination, we can just as well try to see that cable TV was first with this all. Improper termination ? then you'd have ghost images. Aha, those we can see ! Now think what we would be able to hear of that; way more difficult, right ? But what could be seen with TV and could be improved by just looking, worked out into ... digital. I am not 100% sure but I think it was ArcNet which applied the very same as cable TV and it just worked. Later of course cable TV went digital over the same cable (hence damping means did not need to change). Later, Ethernet went the same route but with a different impedance and again later UTP was better. And of course telephony started to implement the same (digital) over copper (but with less (twisted pair) wires).
OK, UTP is not related, although we could start thinking about UTP interlinks. But never mind that (for now Wink).
Point is : all is an evolution but we might wonder who is going to take care about our audio evolution ?

Why do ALL analysers work with BNC connectors ?
Think of this like analysers contain better oscillators than the equipment they need to measure. But of course *that* became ancient history, and only in the last two years or so.
Next step could be the proper "interlinks" for the equipment the analysers measure.

... Which of course still doesn't answer the question why those interlinks of an impedance of exact 50 Ohm are better.
Well, unless we realy understand ...
(now let's see)
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« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2014, 10:06:43 am »

It would be nice if someone can come up with why any "resistance" at the other end needs to be (rule of the thumb) 10x that of the output "resistance".

I know, the general answer again will be about this "damping" needed, and to some degree it will be related to current vs. voltage and that implied by the output.

But whatever is said, it will be in the context of a capacitive load (I think !). It will be related to frequencies as well. But in the very very end I think it is about one single thing only : have those reflections under control the best.
"The best"; again see that Empirical Audio page for what actually always happens, with a speaker driver as the example, that not being a "constant" load.
I don't see much difference with a capacitive load for our interlinks.

But if it were about reflections and that only, and our nice all over 50 Ohm BNC interlink takes this out of this world, then what ?
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« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2014, 10:53:13 am »

Quote
But if it were about reflections and that only, and our nice all over 50 Ohm BNC interlink takes this out of this world, then what ?

Then what ? I guess then I need to find those boxes with the answer burried somewhere. But too many boxes with too much in them, so now I am going to be speculative, pretentious and possibly dumn :

Then no capacitive load is in order, and thus it is resistive.
clapping
Yeah, maybe.
But like I told in my last post from yesterday : I'd hope for that. But now why ...

Please notice or keep in mind : From here on it is going to be quite confusing. How ? Well, because of my speculation at first how reflections can cancel out (and add) and how this could be an explanation of the better (way more poserful) bass. I am not so sure any more whether this "explanation" is for real, and whether it can be replaced with what's following. Do notice though that whatever is true from the following, this cancellation etc. WILL also be in order with improperly terminated cables. And the relation with digital again : while digital will keep on working until appropriate voltage levels (alsways the same - High or Low) collapse, everything of the same at microscopic level in analogue, just changes sound right away.
So with our new cable we have two changed phenomena in order : The cancellation etc. because of reflections and :

More power because of current and voltage being in phase.
Never forget for now : if I am right that we can look at a resistive load now (and it wasn't even my idea - it was Coen's suggestion).

Side note : A resistive load can be seen as one which is always equal. It is equal when more current is pushed through (up and down going level of the music (loud/soft play)) and it is equal for all frequencies.
WOW, wouldn't we like THAT !
Yeah yeah, that is why I hope for it.
BUT to keep in mind : All I am doing is finding an explanation for the ridiculously better sound.

More side note : A capacitive load can be seen as a battery which needs to be charged first before at the other end the voltage comes out of it. Of course this is the working of a capacitor. But our cable is doing the same (it is a capacitor), normally.

Hopefully digging in the right box, what happens with a capacitive load is that first current is needed to create the voltage (and the voltage is what makes our speaker move (amplifier ahead of it)). The voltage lags (comes behind) the current. Now, still looking for the right box Wink) what happens next is that the both (current and voltage) react and the sum of the both is the "net power" we feed to the load.

With a capacitive load (or inductive load the same thing) the real power we feed to the other end is always less than with a resistive load. So, with a resistive load the power is optimal (current and voltage is 100% in phase).

Both feet back on the ground : I won't believe that we suddenly are able to "work with" a pure resistive load. Still, it can have become more of that. This means that we feed more power to the other end than we did before. And this is audible in everyting. Also remember what I told yesterday : "All is more of it".
So it seems logical that we are in this direction.

The other part of it - less distortion, all really "better" - should be because of the frequencies having less influence. And THIS would be the real deal. So, this is not about frequencies being attenuated (because of cable length or reflections or etc.) but about the reactance of the other end (which reactance is not there with our all 50 Ohm cable) not changing the phase of the power (of current + voltage) so to speak, while the reactances (now not there) vary per frequency.

If this is not true then the least what I learned from this is that we must aim for it. So it is still just a start.

Peter

PS: Nice reference from The Power Box :
http://www.aspowertechnologies.com/resources/pdf/True%20vs.%20Apparent%20Power.pdf
Of course this is not about audio, but it is AC and audio is AC.

bye
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« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2014, 11:05:56 am »

Hi,

attached a file from a Dartzeel manual with their arguments for the choice for  a coaxial BNC cable.

Keywords are:  “external disturbance immunity”, “virtual absence of losses” and “without any sonic alterations”

This seems to be the explanation for the superior SQ with the BNC cable, but their “impedance matching” does not cover our case.

Joachim

* coaxial cable.pdf (130.01 KB - downloaded 160 times.)
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« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2014, 11:15:40 am »

If you have read the PDF I linked to in my last post, you will better understand these texts (which I trust) I copied from some forum :
(notice that "driver" here means a device that creates current like in "we need to be able to drive that length of cable) :


For a back-of-the-envelope calculation, capacitances in parallel add together. So, for example, if you had 2 loads of 15pf, the total would be 30pf. Drivers have a characteristic output impedance. Transmission lines (board traces) have a characteristic impedance. Loads (receivers) have a characteristic impedance. Impedance is defined as
the ohmic resistance plus the net reactance, which can be either capacity or inductive, or can equal zero. In the case where the net reactance is zero, you would have a purely resistive load.

In situations where the source, line and load impedances are not equal, there will be a reflection of the signal. In other words, when the source sends a signal to the load, the signal will bounce back to the source and distort the signal (i.e. make it less square). The exception to this rule is when the length of the transmission line is small compared to the wave length of the signal.



and a somewhat more difficult one :


A resistive load passes current in proportion to the instantaneous voltage. If there is voltage across the load, it is passing current, regardless of time.

A capacitive load pases current when the voltage across it changes, and in proportion to how fast it is changing. Any steady voltage drives no current through a capacitive load.

So resistive loads draw current throughout the time when the source applies voltage to it. The capacitive load draws a spike of current when the source tries to step the voltage, and slows the rise time of the step, if the source has series resistance.

If the load is a resistance and capacitance in parallel, then the source must supply both currents simultaneously.

If the load is a series combination of resistance and capacitance, the capacitor blocks any DC current, and the resistor limits the current that can be passed during any fast rate of rise or fall, but extending the time the current passes, after the step in voltage has stopped changing. There will be and exponential decay of current as the resistor drop shrinks, and the capacitor sees the fill applied voltage gradually,  onstead of as the source changes it.



I like to highlight this from the last text :

Quote
A capacitive load pases current when the voltage across it changes, and in proportion to how fast it is changing. Any steady voltage drives no current through a capacitive load.

Notice that with "steady voltage" DC is meant. This also implies that the slower the AC change (hence the lower the frequency), the less noticable the result will be when a capacitive load is in order.
Now you also know why we remove input capacitors.
And what the aim is wihh the cable ...

Peter
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« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2014, 11:42:15 am »

Quote
This seems to be the explanation for the superior SQ with the BNC cable, but their “impedance matching” does not cover our case.

Hi Joachim,

You understood this wrongly I think. You must have gotten it from this in that PDF :

Quote
After a lot of research, we concluded that the one and only means for transmitting an electrical musical signal with no alteration or losses over a long distance is impedance  matched lines, from end to end.

This is the very same as what I said a couple of time like : "All over 50 Ohm cable".
Or "all through" if you like.

So for maybe better explanation : A cable can be "impedance matched" within itself. And when this is so, it means that not only the cable is matching e.g. 50 Ohms impedance, but also the connectors and their connection.

If you'd observe 50 Ohm BNC connectors and 75 Ohm BNC connectors, you'll see that both are different. This is not because it is another standard or so, but because of the dielectricum causes the "impedance" (think inductance now) and the dielectricum can not be the same for 50 Ohm and 75 Ohm. The cables are also different and this is not because they have a resistance of 50 vs 75 Ohm but because of the LCR properties which togther create the impedance. For a cable this can be done in all sorts of means because it is a relation between the copper, the shield and the dielectricum (but the diameter of the copper is the same for all e.g. 50 Ohm cables because otherwise it won't fit the STANDARD connectors (for 50 Ohm)).

Look at the construction of the connector, which is not for "grip" ...
Now compare an RCA connector and see that nothing CAN be done about any impedance. There's just no (dielectricum) facility.

Btw, all is so fragile (and important) that (they say) not even 75 Ohm or 93 Ohm can perfectly be impedance matched. Only 50 Ohm can (somehow).

Side note : Dozens of such connector means exist with maybe the most familiar one the F connectors (for satellite cable). All come along with their matching cables.
So are we done with this ?

And to get what I mean :
All I need to do for better matching "throughout" is replace the 33 Ohm resistor in your NOS1 with a 50 Ohm and ...

And nothing (yet) because BNC is not the best connector at all. TNC for example is way better. It comes with/for what cable ?
But before that we must first cut out the BS of the additional adaptors, right ?

How many times did I say it by now ? It is only a start.
Regards,
Peter

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« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2014, 11:48:53 am »

Something else about that DartZeel PDF :

What they say in there I did not DARE to say this morning :
Why the h*ck should the cable length be so limited. So I thought of the cable TV example. Hence from the source to your house is, how long ?

DartZeel talks about 1Km "and not to make fun". Well, I right away agree just because I don't see why not.
But take out the reflections !

scratching
Happy

It will need some current though.
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« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2014, 12:04:20 pm »

There is something else I like to mention :

From the mere hip-hop scene I have this album (CD) MC-Hammer - Too legit to quit. I have played this a 100 times from my TEAC P1 whatever CD transport. And well, right from the start with computer audio, this did not want to work any more.

Like with so many complaints with computer audio (sure when I started with it) it is too "light-weight". Well, something like that. It is a very dynamical CD of good quality also (IMO) and the dynamics of it became too profound to nicely play it.
And thus I regularly test it (like I do with all which won't play well) and yesterday, finally ... it worked. And HOW !

In other words, no matter the speakers I used since "digital" or no matter the number of woofers and/or sub woofers, and just was too light. Too snappy. Harsh because of that. No fundament.
Now ? oh man. First there's the similarity with the old sound, but next is what all has been added for SQ over the years.

It is (now) also easy to hear what it requires. Something like 3x 380V or so. And that is what we mean (I include Joachim); you can just feel that all was squeezed before. Now it's unlimited flow of current, so to speak.

Peter
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« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2014, 12:41:44 pm »

Can't touch this!

Peter, the link provides excellent information on the -loudspeaker-cable resonances. Allthough I think the resonance picture with the simulated Proac is a little misleading since a computer model will assume an ever rising impedance for the tweeter induction (rising of the impedance on the right side). This will not be the case in practice.
How did they solve it? I guess by placing notch filters parallel to the cable.

Nevertheless it is a real phenomenon and the resonance energy can creep into our precious audio signals. Also there is a likely source of UHF because of the NOS character of the DAC specifically designed for very wide bandwidth square waves. Not to forget USB noise creeping into our cable.

Hmmm, I wonder if this is how the Bybee products work: just eating -excess- HF energy (do they work on digital too?)?

There's more ways to skin this cat, yet the simple termination solution sounds excellent to me.

The discriminator between professional telecom cables and boutique audio stuff is the tight tolerance for the characteristic impedance. These cable's intended use is for much longer distances then in our home environment and you cannot have your impedance vary much otherwise it won't work and you invested a lot of money for nothing.

Quote
The adapter has a resistance of 50Ohms too.

So the NOS sees 33 + 50/2 = 58 ohms for LF and 33 ohms for HF   Wink and seems to be comfortable with it.

from the article:

If the amplifier is not designed to drive very low-impedance loads, say 1-2 ohms, it may saturate, causing distortion. Even if it does not saturate, the circuitry that eliminates crossover-distortion in most amplifiers may not work optimally at high loads. In fact, the crossover distortion in most amplifiers increases with load.

This is what I was referring to. This is true for any class AB amplifier, including opamps. Seems to be a non-issue.

Now let's have a look what's in my cable box tonight.

regards, Coen
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« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2014, 12:44:15 pm »

DartZeel talks about 1Km "and not to make fun". Well, I right away agree just because I don't see why not.
But take out the reflections !

Edit II: Note to Mani - this BNC cable, details and photo later today, might help to place the NOS1 + PC outside of the listening room without a degeneration of the SQ.

Hey Peter, so there's a distinct possibility that I'll be able to use 10m cables no problem? That would really be great.

Will you now be offering the NOS1a with an option of 50 Ohm BNC output connectors... and the Orelos with an option of 50 Ohm BNC input connectors? Or does the use of 50 Ohm BNC-to-RCA adapters negate this?

Mani.
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« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2014, 01:13:01 pm »

10m?

For killing reflections/resonances no problem, but cable capacitance will become more significant (this is relevant for audio frequencies) so ymmv...

regards, Coen.
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« Reply #53 on: September 11, 2014, 02:51:18 pm »

Thanks Coen.

The 50 Ohm Huber + Suhner cables (the ones I've just ordered and the ones that Joachim is using) are around 95pF/m. So a 10m run would still be under 1nF. Is there a straightforward way of calculating how this would affect audio frequencies?

EDIT: According to the Huber + Suhner data sheet (the one Joachim linked earlier), at 6GHz, these cables attenuate at 1.5dB/m. From the graphs, it's hard to get a meaningful figure for the Mhz range, let alone the KHz range... but it's obviously going to be very low.

Mani.
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« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2014, 03:22:07 pm »

I just looked at it:

Source impedance is with 33 ohm series resistor and 50 ohm the first adapter: 19 ohm. This is low enough for a 1 nF cable: -3 dB on 830kHz. The second adapter containing also 50 ohm even improves on this.

Regards, Coen

Ps. audio signals have very long waves (>10km for 20 kHz) so the hf characteristic impedance does not apply. We must take the capacitance  into consideration.
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« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2014, 03:46:47 pm »

Thanks Coen.

Cheers, Mani.
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« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2014, 04:23:51 pm »


The 50 Ohm Huber + Suhner cables (the ones I've just ordered and the ones that Joachim is using)



 good good good
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« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2014, 06:02:26 pm »

Calculation of (normal audio) cable attenuation

see:

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-cable.htm
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« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2014, 06:35:13 pm »

Thanks Joachim.

So Coen, were you calculating with 1nF/m? This comes to -3dB at ~830KHz. Putting 95pF/m comes to -3dB at 8.8MHz.

???

Mani.
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« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2014, 01:09:31 am »

Hi Mani,

You're right. I have misscounted the number of digits on my unscientific calculator. 1nF was for the entire cable.
Anyway in the mhz range other stuff becomes important as wire induction, and of course the hf transmission characteristics.

So thanks to the low source impedance cable capacitance still doesn't matter at 10m. This was actially my first point  scratching.

I didn't make it to the box tonight and i wonder if I did not throw away all my scr*p token ring coax. if so I could start with a simple video cable and do the 75 ohms in the connectors. (Did anybody try this allready?).

Regards, Coen
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« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2014, 08:31:40 am »

Quote
do the 75 ohms in the connectors.

What do you mean with that, Coen ?
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*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2014, 11:18:19 am »

Terminating the 75 ohm video cable with 75 ohm resistors in the RCA plugs.

Similar to using two bnc-rca adapters with 50 ohm resistors buid in for a 50 ohm cable.

Regards, Coen
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« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2014, 11:39:15 am »

Coen,

Quote
Terminating the 75 ohm video cable with 75 ohm resistors in the RCA plugs.

If it were that easy ...

Peter
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Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
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*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #63 on: September 12, 2014, 12:38:25 pm »

No it isn't that simple, but I wanted to mimic the setup that started the discussion and it is the most easy to do.

A proper one would involve extra series resistance at the nos1 cable's end (42 ohms). This is for a later moment.

Regards, Coen
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« Reply #64 on: September 12, 2014, 01:10:51 pm »

Peter,

Hmm. Are you referring to a ftz style capacitors at the output? That would complicate it. I'd better start with resistors at the amp's end only. If I can find the proper rf ones in the scr*p box.

Regards, Coen
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Set of Clarixa, Intona, Phasure NOS1a-75B USB (buf 4 ms)-> Blaxius ->SE EL95 (0,8W triode) + MiniDSP/T.amp3000-> biwired QED cable-> Bastanis Mandala Duo.

[other sources: TD124/3009SII-i/Grace F9/lounge LCR phono; Rega Planet 1997 vintage]
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« Reply #65 on: September 12, 2014, 01:40:24 pm »

As I mentioned before, I've bought a nice pair of Huber + Suhner cables for peanuts (compared to the retail price) on eBay and am waiting for them to get here from the US. If I love the way they sound, I am either going to have to: 1) bring the NOS1a up from my basement into the main room or; 2) have some new H+S cables custom-built for me (for $$$), as the cables I bought are only 3.4m in length and I need 10m. I'd really rather not do either of these things if I can avoid them.

On Peter's suggestion, I ordered some long (and cheap!) 50 Ohm cables and connectors from Farnell yesterday and they arrived about 30 minutes ago.

And oh là là...

Interestingly, it's kind of hard to describe the way they sound, in much the same way that the NOS1a's sound is hard to describe. The cables just sound 'right'... as if there's no cable there at all.

For the last few weeks I've had a pair of very expensive Tellurium Black Diamond cables on loan from a dealer (although I haven't really been around much to listen to them). But having compared the two just now, I'm so sorry to have to say that these 50 Ohm cables are MUCH better... even though they're much longer and of course much cheaper. The Telluriums are going back to the dealer today, and I've saved myself quite a lot of money. Hey Joachim, thanks for the tip man!

I can't help thinking that what we're (everyone, spearheaded by Peter) doing here is amazing. Anyone in their right mind looking for a truly state of the art system would use the knowledge on this forum to put together a nice PC (or get one built for them), install XX, buy a NOS1a, buy a nice pair of active speakers from Bert/Peter... and connect everything together using these 50 Ohm cables. I'm absolutely certain that $-for-$ it'd trounce anything else out there.

Mani.



 
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« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2014, 02:44:37 pm »

Hi Mani,

What Bnc to RCA adapters do you use? With or without the 50 ohm resistor in them? What type is the cable (like Rg 58u)

Thanks,

Regards, Coen
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Set of Clarixa, Intona, Phasure NOS1a-75B USB (buf 4 ms)-> Blaxius ->SE EL95 (0,8W triode) + MiniDSP/T.amp3000-> biwired QED cable-> Bastanis Mandala Duo.

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« Reply #67 on: September 12, 2014, 02:53:46 pm »

Hi Coen, here's what I'm using:

RG58 BNC M/M, 5M (Farnell part no. 1351884)

I had already ordered these adapters from Mouser earlier in the week:

Emerson 27-8110 BNC Female to RCA Male adapters (Mouser part no. 601-27-8110)

But Farnell do similar adapters.

HTH.

Mani.
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« Reply #68 on: September 12, 2014, 03:49:36 pm »

Quote
With or without the 50 ohm resistor in them?

Hey Coen,

There is no such thing as a resistor in a cable or connector or anywhere. Unless you put such a thing in there yourself. Wink
It is impedance.

Regards,
Peter
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XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores) @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *30*/-/*1*/*1*/*1*/ Q1Factor = *40* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *15ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.90*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / *OSD Off* / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Custom Filtering Highest for 705600* / Always Clear Proxy before Playbck = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (*8ms*) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2014, 04:43:17 pm »

Quote
With or without the 50 ohm resistor in them?

Hey Coen,

There is no such thing as a resistor in a cable or connector or anywhere. Unless you put such a thing in there yourself. Wink
It is impedance.

Regards,
Peter

It says so in this post, including the mention of loss of gain:http://www.phasure.com/index.php?action=post;quote=32240;topic=3026.0;num_replies=68;sesc=1f48dd3a878ffdfd1e9814fa31887d94

Reference is also made to a Dartzeel audio cable which is designed with a 50 ohm interface between amp and preamp:
- power amp input spec version A:BNC: 50 ±1 ohm, de 1 Hz à 1 MHz,
- preamp output spec: 50 ohms for BNC, < 100 ohms for RCA, 600 ohms for XLR

Now I had the (incorrect) notion the sound improvement was about the merits of this setup.

So this all about adding a 50 ohm (to 75 ohm?) characteristic impedance BNC-RCA adapter to be able to use a standard 50ohm cable?

If so, this adapter is only physically terminating the BNC cable and nothing else. How much further can you go in this case then concluding that it is all about the way the connector makes contact mechanically.

regards, Coen


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Set of Clarixa, Intona, Phasure NOS1a-75B USB (buf 4 ms)-> Blaxius ->SE EL95 (0,8W triode) + MiniDSP/T.amp3000-> biwired QED cable-> Bastanis Mandala Duo.

[other sources: TD124/3009SII-i/Grace F9/lounge LCR phono; Rega Planet 1997 vintage]
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« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2014, 05:09:55 pm »

OK Coen, you lost me. Happy

Quote
So this all about adding a 50 ohm (to 75 ohm?) characteristic impedance BNC-RCA adapter to be able to use a standard 50ohm cable?

Almost. Here is my correction :

Quote
So this all about adding a 50 ohm (to 75 ohm?) characteristic impedance BNC-RCA adapter connector to be able to use a standard 50ohm cable?

Now it's Yes.
But it is allowed to replace BOTH "50 Ohm" with "75 Ohm".

Quote
If so, this adapter is only physically terminating the BNC cable and nothing else

Correct.

Quote
How much further can you go in this case then concluding that it is all about the way the connector makes contact mechanically.

Very wrong. Or better : Very far.
It is about now non-existing reflections if all is right.
And now I have the feeling that you did not read many of my posts in this topic. Or that my English is too poor to even want to start reading them.
Still you should.
yes

Peter
Wink

PS: For your weekend :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_impedance

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XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores) @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *30*/-/*1*/*1*/*1*/ Q1Factor = *40* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *15ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.90*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / *OSD Off* / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Custom Filtering Highest for 705600* / Always Clear Proxy before Playbck = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (*8ms*) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2014, 06:13:53 pm »

Question before ordering any cable / adapter etc. My audio setup at the moment:

NOS1 > 0.6m IC > AMP1 > 2 pairs spkr cable > SPKR + AMP2,3 > SPKR LF section(s)
AMP1, 16W dual mono for each 8" Coax driver
AMP2,3 200W plate amp(s) for 2x12" (sub)Woofer sections

What reflections I have in 0.6 mtr interconnects ? (pure silver in foamy ptfe, twisted pr)

I can change above setup by using 2 sets of IC's: 0.6 + 3 mtr pairs - eliminating one pair of speaker
cables (high signal) but adding 3 mtrs low signal. Or using same lengths IC's perhaps ?

Thanks in adv.
George
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« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2014, 07:42:35 pm »

Hey Coen,

Quote
I wonder if this is how the Bybee products work: just eating -excess- HF energy (do they work on digital too?)?

From what I have read Bybees work at a quantum level to reduce noise in any electrical circuit. I am pretty sure that noise levels are reduced regardless of frequency so should work in digital too - but would you need to reduce quantum noise in digital circuits? would quantum noise affect trigger levels square wave shape mmmm that could be a whole discussion apart.

The scientists that developed Bybees were able to measure base noise levels and used an empirical approach to reduce it. They had a hunch where to start but basically used expensive and exotic materials (gold silver special ceramics) and played with amounts thereof to "slipstream" electrons thereby stripping them of quantum noise. As no one really understands the quantum world (Feynman said anyone who thinks they understand quantum mech's has not read it properly) and as an empirical approach was taken I doubt that anyone really understands how they work.

Anyway I fitted mine early today to the Orelino's and will report later.

Cheers

Paul
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« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2014, 07:48:56 pm »



It says so in this post, including the mention of loss of gain:http://www.phasure.com/index.php?action=post;quote=32240;topic=3026.0;num_replies=68;sesc=1f48dd3a878ffdfd1e9814fa31887d94



Hi Coen,

I'm back with the XXH volume (gain) to my normal setting between -33 and -31,5 for my accustomed SPL.
("burn in" of the cable or hallucinations?? During the night the ear reacts different.)

Joachim.
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« Reply #74 on: September 13, 2014, 10:19:32 am »

Question before ordering any cable / adapter etc. My audio setup at the moment:

NOS1 > 0.6m IC > AMP1 > 2 pairs spkr cable > SPKR + AMP2,3 > SPKR LF section(s)
AMP1, 16W dual mono for each 8" Coax driver
AMP2,3 200W plate amp(s) for 2x12" (sub)Woofer sections

What reflections I have in 0.6 mtr interconnects ? (pure silver in foamy ptfe, twisted pr)

I can change above setup by using 2 sets of IC's: 0.6 + 3 mtr pairs - eliminating one pair of speaker
cables (high signal) but adding 3 mtrs low signal. Or using same lengths IC's perhaps ?

Hi George,

This could be one bridge too far for me at this moment;

Let's say that "we" are used to reflections in the digital (connections) realm. This, with the exception of analogue cable TV where you can see it (ghosting). The point here is that a digital signal is about "high" and "low" (voltage) which represents the 0's and 1's. This is not allowed to be disturbed. Thus, when a 1 becomes a 0 because of interfering reflections (or noise etc.) then the connection does not work any more. This besides jitter, which we can see as crucial as what we talk about in the analogue domain. So, in the digital domain reflections also imply jitter and this is as out of control (and as important) as what we talk about now - the analogue domain.

For jitter we deal with that in quite another way and this is "solve it elsewhere". Think like re-generating the signal further down the line in good fashion. With digital this can be done once the 0's and 1's come across in well fahsion;
In analogue we can't do that, because no "good signal" can be recognized (there's no definition for that).

Because the re-generating of the signal can't always be done - or actually most often it can't be done (don 't think audio now) all sorts of analysers and test equipment exist for it. So, a signal is set up, and such an analyser can measure the reflections hence quality of the signal. Think a bit like empirical analysis and how to "tune" things.
When we'd would like to know how this works out in audio (analogue), we'd need such a (same) analyser.
N.b.: I have been looking for 3 days in a row for something affordable, but I'm afraid it needs some fund raising first; second hand somewhere in between 5-7K euros.
After that I would be able to create the best connection for one type of connection (known equipment from front to end) *or* I will be able to see that things don't matter at all in such and so conditions - actually like I (we) try to do with the exact 50 Ohm cable.

Notice that it would be about the most cheap connection possible (because it's all just technical stuff without snake oil) like our cables from now would cost a few euros when self made. So first spend that 5-7K to next be able to make a cheap cable which by guarantee is the best.

All 'n all George, I can not answer your questions. One thing maybe : It will never be the best to connect two "loads" to one source. So keep your one interlink as is (and replace that), and not connect other amplifiers to that same "source" (= DAC).
The "bridge too far" is also about what happens with the high level connections, which of course are very different to begin with (think about the impedance relation). Generally this is harmless in itself but that too undoubtedly can be improved upon vastly. Or like with the loudspeaker cables in general (again see that Empirical Audio page).

Regards,
Peter
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« Reply #75 on: September 13, 2014, 01:31:33 pm »

Yesterday evening I replaced the 10m XLR cables in my main system with the 50 Ohm BNC cables and adapters. (I'm actually using 2x 5m lengths and a central 50 Ohm BNC connector per channel to make up 10m, as I couldn't find any 10m BNC cables off the shelf.)

The sound has been totally transformed for the better. The realism is now truly amazing.

But this is in no way a criticism of the 10m XLR cables I bought from Juan. These were designed with a balanced connection in mind. It was only once the Orelos were here that we realised a truly balanced connection was not possible. Running these cables singled-ended over a 10m length is just not what they were intended for.

The 50 Ohm coaxial cables and adapters, however, seem to be totally unfazed by the 10m length. It's really as if they're simply not there.

I agree with Joachim that a few things need to be readjusted after installing these cables. The bass is now tight, tuneful and utterly realistic, but tends to take the 'back stage' more than before. I'm going to explore some of the DSP options with the Orelos to just bring that gorgeous bass forward a little.

Mani.
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« Reply #76 on: September 13, 2014, 01:43:26 pm »

Okay, is this cable what you folks are talking about and does the length matter?

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BNC58-3
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« Reply #77 on: September 13, 2014, 05:08:01 pm »

Okay, is this cable what you folks are talking about and does the length matter?

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BNC58-3

Hi,

this cable should work for our intention (low budget price), and for longer distances as well. Let us say <20m minimum.

see datasheet attached. The capacitance is 101pF/m.

The conductor of this cable is a "stranded tinned wire", which is not the best material/conductor for our purpose.


Joachim

* RG58-50JF.pdf (78.68 KB - downloaded 106 times.)
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« Reply #78 on: September 13, 2014, 05:31:04 pm »

Thanks Joachim, I'll look for a cable made with solid copper instead of stranded.
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« Reply #79 on: September 13, 2014, 05:34:04 pm »

Thanks Joachim, I'll look for a cable made with solid copper instead of stranded.


Hi, see this cable on Ebay.com

K02252D HUBER SUHNER TEFLON 50OHMS CABLE

and buy the appropriate BNC connector from Hubner+Suhner ............. .

Joachim
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« Reply #80 on: September 13, 2014, 05:52:30 pm »

I don't think the 'cheap' cable I bought is any better than the one Brian mentions (although it is a bit more expensive):

http://uk.farnell.com/radiall/r284c0351008/lead-rg58-bnc-m-m-5m/dp/1351884?Ntt=RADIALL+-+R284C0351008

I can't find the conductor material from the data sheet, but assume it's also just tinned wire. But the cables (2x 5m in series) sound very, very good.

I'll be able to try the H+S cables in my office system when they come, hopefully next week. This'll give me an idea of how important the quality of the conductors themselves is.

Mani.
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« Reply #81 on: September 13, 2014, 05:58:25 pm »

Hi, see this cable on Ebay.com

K02252D HUBER SUHNER TEFLON 50OHMS CABLE

and buy the appropriate BNC connector from Hubner+Suhner .......

Hey, thanks Joachim. I've just gone ahead and ordered 20m. Do you happen to know where I can get the Huber + Suhner 50 Ohm BNC connectors? Also, will I need a special tool to fit the BNC connectors?

Mani.
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« Reply #82 on: September 13, 2014, 06:05:31 pm »

Well, I just ordered the following (silver plated solid copper---a bit more expensive.):

http://www.l-com.com/coaxial-rg142b-coaxial-cable-bnc-male-male-30-ft

Didn't see the posts after my initial one this morning. Manny, let us know if there's a difference between the cheap cable and the "Huber" cable. Thanks guys.
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« Reply #83 on: September 13, 2014, 06:07:17 pm »

Hi, see this cable on Ebay.com

K02252D HUBER SUHNER TEFLON 50OHMS CABLE

and buy the appropriate BNC connector from Hubner+Suhner .......

Hey, thanks Joachim. I've just gone ahead and ordered 20m. Do you happen to know where I can get the Huber + Suhner 50 Ohm BNC connectors? Also, will I need a special tool to fit the BNC connectors?

Mani.


Here,

the connectors

http://ecom.hubersuhner.com/ecomm/products/Radio-Frequency/RF-Adaptors/pcat-4/index.html


Joachim

Edit:

http://ecom.hubersuhner.com/ecomm/distributors/our-distributors.html

Cable assembled to connector via Crimp technique, see page

http://literature.hubersuhner.com/Technologies/Radiofrequency/RFCablesEN/?page=74

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« Reply #84 on: September 13, 2014, 06:21:58 pm »

@Mani - stop, cancel your e-bay order.
K02252D has Steel + Copper + Silver center conductor.

You should look for K03252D or RG393 or ENVIROFLEX 393 (blue colored jacket) for extreme low loss coax.
There's also H-S SUCOFORM_250-1_FEP capable of 18GHz, but I could not find any adapter with such capabilities...

Think that RG223/U cable of some known brand like Belden, Draka etc. would offer satisfactory quality as well.

@Peter,
Thank you vm for very detailed reply !  drinks 
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« Reply #85 on: September 13, 2014, 06:22:51 pm »

Hi Joachim, I was talking about the actual BNC connectors for the wire, and not the BNC-RCA adapters (although I'll certainly look into getting a couple of pairs of H+S adapters too).

Having done a search, I think I'll need a couple of pairs of these:

http://www.hubersuhner.com/ProdDet/2761105

Mani.
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« Reply #86 on: September 13, 2014, 06:28:14 pm »

@Mani - stop, cancel your e-bay order.
K02252D has Steel + Copper + Silver center conductor.

Hmmm...

Does the 'St' stand for steel or antimony?

Mani.
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« Reply #87 on: September 13, 2014, 06:35:21 pm »

Here's data from www2.hubersuhner  (com)


* K02252D.JPG (51.32 KB, 812x347 - viewed 443 times.)
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« Reply #88 on: September 13, 2014, 06:45:50 pm »

Hi Joachim, I was talking about the actual BNC connectors for the wire, and not the BNC-RCA adapters (although I'll certainly look into getting a couple of pairs of H+S adapters too).

Having done a search, I think I'll need a couple of pairs of these:

http://www.hubersuhner.com/ProdDet/2761105

Mani.

Hi Mani,

yes, that's the right ones.

Joachim

The cable you ordered has the same capacitance with 96pF/m and a lower operating voltage as the mat'l combination CuAg, and both cables are double shielded. That is the identical cable I have.

* 22511081_dataSheet(1).pdf (64.35 KB - downloaded 221 times.)
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« Reply #89 on: September 13, 2014, 07:16:41 pm »

Hi Joachim,

Yesterday night I was discussing over phone with my friend mentioning H+S coax cables and he pointed me to e-bay link where K02252D is available for just $2.99 / meter.
If you look at photo here you will notice that cable jacket is different, I would say transparent, not the same as on your cable(s). And K03252D costs much, much more (~$12/feet).
That's the reason I warned Mani on his e-bay purchase. And yes, capacitance of K02252D is 97pF. H+S data here
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« Reply #90 on: September 13, 2014, 07:35:37 pm »

Hi George, thanks for the 'warning'. I suspect the jacket in the photo looks transparent because of the flash photography. I can't believe that anyone would sell counterfeit cable that retails for only $3/m - doesn't seem worth their while - and the eBay seller definitely looks like a genuine RF dealer.

But I totally agree that it'd be better to get the K03252D cable. 'Better' more from a psychological point of view than sound POV perhaps, because we have no idea if they actually sound different. If the real point is impedance matching, then there might not be a difference in sound.

The K02252D cable has cost me very little, so I'm inclined to go ahead with the purchase because the K03252D cable looks much harder to obtain. If anyone knows where I could get 20m of K03252D then please let me know asap, as in which case I would definitely cancel my order.

Cheers, Mani.
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« Reply #91 on: September 13, 2014, 07:53:37 pm »

This is what looked interesting.

http://www.cablesondemand.com/category/CORG142/product/CO%2D142BNCX200/URvars/Items/Library/InfoManage/CO-142BNCX200.htm

*edit* this cable has the similar specs as the H+S cable
http://www.amphenol.ru/pdf/RG-142.pdf

Any good BNC to RCA adapter?
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« Reply #92 on: September 13, 2014, 08:33:29 pm »

Hey VJ, the performance looks similar to the 'expensive' K03252D H+S cable. But then again, the 'cheap' K02252D H+S cable seems to have similar performance too.

Not too sure about the description of the Amphenol either:

"Solid Silver-coated Copper Clad Steel Conductor". Sounds more like the K02252D than the K03252D.

Mani.
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« Reply #93 on: September 13, 2014, 08:58:40 pm »

Hi Mani,
I might be missing something but from the "cables on demand" it says solid silver coated copper center conductor.
Again from that PDF on the top it mentions something about steel on top, but the details it mentions the inner conductor is silver-copper.
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« Reply #94 on: September 13, 2014, 09:02:52 pm »

From the datasheet you linked:

http://www.amphenol.ru/pdf/RG-142.pdf

Ambiguous... and disingenuous if it is indeed copper-clad steel, IMO.

Mani.
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« Reply #95 on: September 13, 2014, 09:30:46 pm »

Again from that PDF on the top it mentions something about steel on top, but the details it mentions the inner conductor is silver-copper.

Yep, and hence ambiguous. Can they still call it 'silver copper' if it is 'silver-coated copper-clad steel'?

In any event, I can't imagine the 'steel' is a mistake.

Mani.
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« Reply #96 on: September 13, 2014, 09:38:36 pm »

Strange indeed.
It's the same "MIL-C-17 type" grade, I presume it should have the same specs.
Anyways Amphenol claims to be the inventor of BNC connector.
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« Reply #97 on: September 13, 2014, 09:56:55 pm »

According to H+S "High Temperature - K series" (page 48) coax cables Joachim provided link to, the best (double shielded coax) is RG_393.
That's why I mentioned it earlier.  Plus variation of it, with blue colored jacket, ENVIROFLEX_393. Then comes K03252D, RG142, RG400 etc.


* H+S_HighTemp_K_class_coax.JPG (64.23 KB, 1074x504 - viewed 519 times.)
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« Reply #98 on: September 13, 2014, 10:13:49 pm »

Again from that PDF on the top it mentions something about steel on top, but the details it mentions the inner conductor is silver-copper.

'silver-coated copper-clad steel wire'


Hi,

the above is the correct term. (see ASTM B 452-09, for electronic applications)

------------------------

I went through all technical datas of the Huber+Suhner cable families, and the ENVIROFLEX and K - types are covering our application best.

When I have a look to the attenuation diagrams (see above from nik.d), and see where  the audio frequency is working, the curves of the cables are not that far apart.
The capacitance of both families is nearly the same (94pF/m & 96pF/m).

I think it will not a big mistake if we stick to the K_02252_D.

My proposal: If somebody wants to climb to the top he may test the K_02252_D60 and write his experience.

When we have a look to the weight and the diameter of the conductor of the cables, the _D60 is ......... .

Joachim
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« Reply #99 on: September 14, 2014, 02:22:31 am »


Hi,

both same cables (RG 142)  are a "silver-coated copper-clad steel wire". Conductor dia=0,95mm.

see:

http://www.awcwire.com/productspec.aspx?id=m17/60-rg142-coaxial-cable
&
http://www.hubersuhner.com/ProdDet/3147173

Joachim

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« Reply #100 on: September 14, 2014, 03:50:19 am »

No mention of any steel conductor in the RG142B cable that I ordered:

http://www.l-com.com/multimedia/catalog_page/2K14M1_165-RG142B-U-and-RG213-U-50-Ohm-Cable-Assemblies.pdf

The order was from here:

http://www.l-com.com/coaxial-rg142b-coaxial-cable-bnc-male-male-30-ft
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« Reply #101 on: September 14, 2014, 06:24:17 am »

Hi,
Can someone explain why something like this would not be appropriate?
http://www.trilogycoax.com/pdf/wireless/aircell_catalog/AirCell_Catalog_Plenum.pdf
I see the following interesting features
Item: AQC012J50
Capacitance: 72 Pf/m
Velocity of propagation: 95% speed of light (RG142 @ 70%)
Dielectric: Air

What is different is the corrugated jacket.

Thanks,
VJ

P.s Anyone with recommendation of a good BNC to RCA Adapter?!
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« Reply #102 on: September 14, 2014, 11:22:27 am »

Hi,

Note to boleary & vrao.

When I have a look to the diagrams of  Reply #97 by nik.d I'm "nitpicking". Beg your pardon.

Both diagrams are showing nearly no differences (nothing due to the small scale) in the audioband up to 20KHz within the single and the double shielded cables, and we should hear no deviations in a blind test until otherwise proven.

Joachim

EDIT:

Mani is very enthusiastic with his intermediate "cheap" BNC cables, and it will be interesting to read his comment about the new cable (K_02252_D).
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« Reply #103 on: September 14, 2014, 11:48:10 am »

Agee Happy

Intrigued by vrao's question on 'Good BNC to RCA adopters' have searched  a few.
The only one with tech details, most important would be Freq. Range, is the one Mani already suggested: Emerson 27-8110, Fr.Range: DC to 2GHz.
No other manufacturer/distrubutor is stating this information. And here are few suggestions, from easy available to 'boutique' one's:

Emerson 27-8110 @ Mouser Part#: 601-27-8110
http://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/AIM-Cambridge-Emerson-Connectivity-Solutions/27-8110/?qs=dEO1gfb2FsoQhhrXS/AHfA==

Bomar @ Digikey Part#: 991-1109-ND
http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?pv166=318&pv167=614&FV=fff40016%2Cfff803d6&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=100
http://media.digikey.com/Photos/Bomar%20Inter%20Photos/R0844.jpg

Pacificcable Part#: RFA-8392
http://store.sacelec.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=299

Oelbach Part#: 4601
http://www.oehlbach.com/en/computer/dvi-vga/adapter/bnc-co-2


George
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« Reply #104 on: September 14, 2014, 12:56:03 pm »

Thanks George.

From the pic, the Emersons look like they should have a gold-plated centre pin. The ones that I received from Mouser definitely do not have this. But the packaging stated the exact same part number.

The Oelbachs look nice - I'll probably try to get these if I can at some point (again, for purely psychological reasons and being able to sleep well at night).

Incidentally, I have asked for my K_02252_D cable from eBay to be cancelled (I haven't received a reply from the seller yet but am assuming it will be OK to cancel). My thinking is that if I'm going to bother replacing the cheap cables I'm already using then I really want the 'best' I can find (again for purely psychological reasons). Otherwise I may as well just keep my current cables, which sound great anyway.

Mani.
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« Reply #105 on: September 14, 2014, 03:11:01 pm »

Does it matter if the adapter is rated at 50 or 75 ohms? Joachim, in his reply #2, said he used 50 ohm adapters, so I ordered 50 ohm too. Looking at Nik.d's list above I couldn't tell if they were 50 or 75 ohm.

http://www.l-com.com/coaxial-coaxial-adapter-bnc-female-50-ohm-rca-male
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« Reply #106 on: September 14, 2014, 03:23:39 pm »

George, thanks for the list.
As mani mentioned the Ohelbach looks very interesting, but there is no mention about the impedance?
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« Reply #107 on: September 14, 2014, 03:38:57 pm »

@vrao
Yes, that's very confusing for say very well respected cable factory. Their PDF is, say, ridiculous.
For Mouser, Digikey & Pacific Cable ones I'v checked by filtering (50 Ohm) Pacific Cable has same connector with *-75*
added at end of product name. Did not post direct link to mfr site 'cause my browser is blocking Java App for this product.
Riddle still remains on 'boutique' and most expensive one. BNC connectors of 75 Ohm impedance are larger in diameter
and that's the only difference between them, AFAIK.
 
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« Reply #108 on: September 14, 2014, 03:44:33 pm »


so I ordered 50 ohm



perfect!

Joachim
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« Reply #109 on: September 15, 2014, 09:27:17 am »

All,

Last Saturday, my 5th day of listening through the BNC interlinks, I started to be sure I could hear a flavor in the highs. Maybe it has been there from day 1, but let's say that I heard a few things for the better anyway and I didn't want to hear flavors.

But yesterday things changed;

Listening through this cable 6 days ago started out with the more emphasized bass (see Want some Bass topic. It brought a better balance in everything although I would say that generally it could be too heavy to my taste. So as promised in there (link) yesterday I reverted to the normal neutral speaker settings, just to see how the BNC cable would behave from there.

First notice, if I observed well, was the still more bass. Actually a bit strange, because it was difficult to notice less bass. Well, it was less, but the "too heavy" remained.
Since I was doing this to bring back more dynamics - because the more bass tends to mask the higher frequencies which makes everything more "slow", I played another of these MC Hammer albums (I mentioned MC Hammer earlier in this topic) to see whether that one now was too dynamical. Actually I chose MC Hammer again because I expected it to be OK because the bass seemed still OK. Well, that worked !
Hmm ...

At 3 quarters of it, I started to observe Madonna / Michael Jackson synthesized (grey) drums as something like "he too" but with the notice I most probably did not play that album ever in digital. All sounds super much better than 10 years ago, so that's why the "he too".
So I switched over to one of my mere test albums to see how that would behave. Actually for the bass only.

After 15 minutes I shut down the whole system because I was totally fed up with it. Ouch ouch ouch.

Coen, might we have bet over a nice bottle of whiskey, pick your brand ...

All right (not), I now know where such an interconnection gets its "virtues" from. And actually it is very interesting;
Assuming that everyebody perceives the Silverstone USB3 interface the same way ... this cable is that times 3 or so.
But let's first go back to how the cable started "working" :

So, the more bass (see link I gave) is really that. The whole picture changes, and you don't hear me say it is wrong to begin with. However, what surely happens is that the highs are masked and without all starting to be dull right away, it *is* true that all gets slower of it. So the snap of a snare drum turns into a "less snare" simply because of the higher frequencies are overwhelmed by the "tom" part of the snare drum (the cabinet of it). This is not per se wrong, but it *is* more slow, and for comparing with reality you could be disturbed by it. Also, the lower frequency instruments with snap, will become more low frequency because of it. And strangely enough a kick drum is an example of that. Things get "heavy" ...

If you listen to this for a couple of days - which was 3 days in my case - all sorts of revelation happen when you are able to add some special kind of highs. Like a Silverstone card in 3 fold. yes
All opens up and while the more square fragile frequencies where mushed out by the lower ones, things really start to happen when you make those fragile frequencies ... more square. But by what means ? Silverstone card means. And what was that ? "creating" holes in the "smoothnes".

What is the Silverstone card actually doing ? Making a cymbal "vibrate" better into a cymbal. Can't be put to words, but you'll know it (if you have one, especially with normal NOS1 (not NOS1a)).
So holes = on/off = square. Very nice for localisation and also very nice for separation and imaging. And depth. And more.

Because this is Joachim's subject (topic), I'll make another side step;
It hasn't been emphasized too much, but somewhere in between the lines in some post from some topic in this forum (pfff) I told that my Seagull did not work so well any more. And what was going on there ? I "turned down" the squariness. By what means was that ? Oh, NOS1a and in combination with the new Custom Filter means of XXHighEnd.
Did I care ? maybe some times. But there's more ease in the sound and in the end you could hear that this was about "distortion" as such. Difficult to explain it through distortion, but if something is too square (for our system to cope with) then the result is distortion.

Joachim, you said it : The Seagull flies as never before.
Yes, maybe. I tried it too a few days ago, but I already couldn't concentrate on the (perceived) music in there because the fragility of the sounds had vanished. I now refer (thus already a few days back) to the often same flavor. Actually hard to recognize the whole track because of that (recognition points had vanished).

And so I yesterday set the speaker to the "lean" setting (the original measured setting) and put on one of my well known "test" albums;

With now all my attention to "could it be the cable" I right away noticed that I couldn't see the size of the cymbals. This is how the triple Silverstone effect jumped to me; Too much of it, and with its impact on especially cymbals, now all cymbals were influenced into sort of too small ones.
No, no way this could be right; actually I heard "hash" but with a lower frequency we normally dedicate "hash" to. A very profound on/off sound.

I couldn't say at all the sound was too lean, but I now noticed as well that the bass was not what it can be. Also hard to explain, but where an electric bass nicely showed its frequency, the acoustic bass was coloured. Too much of it ? possibly.
But I couldn't observe the basses for too long because the highs started to hurt. Really hurt. I said to myself "this is dirty". Not grey - the opposite I'd say, but the too much on/off of it made it dirty. And thus painful as well.

Of course my big mistake has been that I tried the BNC cable in an already tweaked setting to begin with (the more emphasized bass). This is how the cable looked to be doing good. So on top of the overwhelming bass it was able to just pop up a sufficient amount of squariness to net make the imaging even better. All went better because of it.
Except for the flavor ...
(and flavors KILL me !)

So without the "bass tweaking" it is totally rubbish. And I wished I had tried the cable in the normal setting to begin with.

Please notice, up to disclaimer (and also pay attention) :
*Because* this is listening to tweaked sound to begin with (more bass), it WILL be so that my observation is subjective now. In other words, things are not right to begin with, and THUS we can't relate to mere reality and we start to pick the best virtues out of what we hear and tend to neglect the anomalies. It's what we want. Still, it is not said that *with* the more emphasized bass the net result can not be better with the BNC cable. It's a weak balance. So in this case (or my case) it is about me just not being able to listen to flavors since I got used to tune for neutrality. And, I already know that not so many people even want that or know what it is. To summarize this :
I don't like the cable because it implies a flavor BUT in the already flavored setting to begin with (emphasized bass). And please remember, with the normal speaker settings I have no complaints apart from a handful of albums not playing (too dynamical or too lean if you want). This too is "me" and possibly I am quite alone. So my bass is neutral, is OK, does not lack a thing to me (and of which by now it could be clear that I am alone on that one already) and if THEN (in that setting) such a cable is mounted, well, then the cable s*cks all over.
Of course it is my opinion that it s*cks anyway, because it is my opinion that it should be used in a neutral setting to begin with. But if I am alone in
a. my bass is neutral so all is right;
b. put in that cable shows 100% clear how bad it does,
then who am I as this loner to decide for you that the cable can't work in your preferred bass-heavy (my opinion) setting.

But tonigt I will be back to the normal cablle - that's for sure.

Also watch out for my next disclaimer :
It is not said (or 100% sure to me) that it is the cable which "creates" the distortion. I mean, it can also be that it passes on better what the source is really telling. If that would be the real truth, then too bad and nothing much to do about that at this moment. Yes, maybe apply a nice heavily ringing filter. But I am not going to do that anyway ...

Peter
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« Reply #110 on: September 15, 2014, 11:54:40 am »

Peter - Aren't your "normal" interconnects coaxial cable? I thought they were when I came over. If they are coax what impedance are they? in other words what is the comparison between.

Cheers

Paul
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« Reply #111 on: September 15, 2014, 12:21:45 pm »

Paul,

I'd say "nothing" because not terminated (properly). But the cable itself, 75 Ohm.

Regards,
Peter
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« Reply #112 on: September 15, 2014, 02:22:08 pm »



b. put in that cable shows 100% clear how bad it does,
then who am I as this loner to decide for you that the cable can't work in your preferred bass-heavy (my opinion) setting.



Hi Peter,

fair writing.

We audiophiles are listening with different cables, and the BNC cable with the adapters are in a reasonable price league, and we are not bankrupt after a “failed” test perception.

As I wrote a couple of times, “bass freaks” are bass freaks and their audio system is tuned for it!
I did never hear such basses (as heard in Peters superb listening room) in live concerts.

Opposed to Peter, I believe in cables or in other words, I do hear differences between some cables. For a longer time I heard music with the Nordost Valhalla and changed in 2009 to the Swedish Entreq (Challenger) cables. There was a small difference between these two cables, and it was to distinguish on a very high level.

I never heard such a drastic difference in cables as between the RCA and BNC cables as now.
The bass in my system is now more realistic, nearer to the sound of live concerts. At deep frequencies the driver of the active subwoofer is now under full control, no undefined notes anymore.

On my system (see settings in profils) is less bass with the BNC’s than with the RCA’s. That is opposite to Peters findings with the Orelos MKII.

This BNC cables are producing less noise than the RCA’s.

The clicks of the cymbals on the Sakura, Sakura track on Stanley Clarkes CD “Jazz In The Garden” (http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Garden-Stanley-Clarke/dp/B001VFM0QU/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1410775739&sr=1-8&keywords=stanley+clarke ) a better to hear/follow than ever.

For tests I’m more listening to live concert CDs, such as “Tenderness” from Al Jarreau (I saw him in a Frankfurt concert) ( http://www.amazon.com/Tenderness-Al-Jarreau/dp/B0016OAUAY/ref=sr_1_10?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1410776113&sr=1-10&keywords=al+jarreau ) and what is coming from the speakers is very realistic., also the “Return to Forever” live CD’s.

Eberhard Weber is playing a wonderful bass on the CD “Endless Days” and the SQ is great on my system. http://www.amazon.com/Endless-Days-Eberhard-Weber/dp/B00005BG87/ref=sr_1_9?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1410779098&sr=1-9&keywords=eberhard+weber

Every cable is a compromise in our systems, one person emphasises the highs, the other the mids and the next one the bass ……….. .

The BNC cable is for my system the best compromise and I can’t go back to a RCA cable.

So, happy testing for the forum members.

On our adjacent “toilet” Happy, eh, library with the computer table the SQ is great.

Joachim

P.S.
Peter, I have problems with the interpretation of the following definitions:
-   so holes = on/off = square; squariness
-   grey
-   flavor

EDIT I:

-Quote-
Also watch out for my next disclaimer :
It is not said (or 100% sure to me) that it is the cable which "creates" the distortion. I mean, it can also be that it passes on better what the source is really telling. If that would be the real truth, then too bad and nothing much to do about that at this moment. Yes, maybe apply a nice heavily ringing filter. But I am not going to do that anyway ...
-Unquote-

My assumption is, due to the construction of the double shielded cable there is less noise and < HF immissions, and what we hear is nearer to the reality.
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« Reply #113 on: September 15, 2014, 04:47:31 pm »

Peter, I have problems with the interpretation of the following definitions:
-   so holes = on/off = square; squariness

High frequency on/off sound. So the sound goes on and off in a high frequency, that in itself implying squares as such. And that creates the :

Quote
-   grey

So say that a 12KHz intended tone is going on/off for 50% of it's "duty cycle" then the result is 6Khz but not a sine (plus very high frequency harmonics beyond the audio band).

Quote
-   flavor

Not neutral. All "cymbals" sound similar.

Quote
-Quote-
Also watch out for my next disclaimer :
It is not said (or 100% sure to me) that it is the cable which "creates" the distortion. I mean, it can also be that it passes on better what the source is really telling. If that would be the real truth, then too bad and nothing much to do about that at this moment. Yes, maybe apply a nice heavily ringing filter. But I am not going to do that anyway ...
-Unquote-

My assumption is, due to the construction of the double shielded cable there is less noise and < HF immissions, and what we hear is nearer to the reality.

It is okay if you think that, but anticipate that you fool yourself. For example, it is true that the "ticks" etc. on cymbals are better audible, but it is not right that no "developing" sound of the cymbal is there. This is how all the ticks an random cymbals start to sound the same.
You are even allowed to judge all as "better resolution" and from there more sharply boundaried, but you never win any game (from me) when that again all sounds similar while it is clear that nothing should sound similar.

Also, no double triple etc. cable is going to help a thing here, because I am using that for ages already (and for that reason btw).

Quote
and what we hear is nearer to the reality.

This is the danger-part;
I tend to agree with this with the BCN cable in. But nobody ever is going to convince me that *thus* not-neutrality will be our share.  But hey, I punched the subject enough I think, and everybody (now fed with some mere negatives) can decide for his own. So please do, and don't stop reporting !!

Thank you Joachim,
Peter
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« Reply #114 on: September 15, 2014, 06:19:07 pm »

Oh My.....
Last night I did my research on another cable with
50Gz bandwidth.
I guess it's irrelevant now.

 dntknw dntknw
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« Reply #115 on: September 15, 2014, 06:22:28 pm »

Quote
It is not said (or 100% sure to me) that it is the cable which "creates" the distortion. I mean, it can also be that it passes on better what the source is really telling.

With this in mind ...

I thought, what the h*ck, let's try to measure differences in THD between the cable I always use and the BNC cable.
Well, I never got 'round to that ...

I saw a pile of noise (like 200uV-p while it should be 25uV-p). What ?
Yep.
Hmm ...
That noise appeared not to be there from the measurement PC - only the audio PC. I didn't understand and even removing the USB cable did not matter (with the measurement PC it did).
One hour further :

Two weeks ago I moved the measurement PC (= "server" as well) down to the basement and with that all the power arrangements changed. That server PC (connected through isolated LAN/Ethernet with the audio PC) went into a separate earth ring. Before this change it always has been in the same earth ring as the audio PC.
But what can now be the difference ?

I honestly don't know.
Always and always the audio PC had to be in the same ring as the audio equipment itself BUT connected to mains earth (and the equipment not). Today ? well, I moved the audio PC into the earthless outlet (same as the audio gear) and ... gone was the noise (notice that this whatever noise itself is  inaudible anyway).

One more thing (but actually for a different topic) :
When the NOS1a is connected to the server PC (in mains earth and another earth ring), the black wire in the NOS1a has to be CONNECTED or otherwise I would see the same noise. However, that PC does not contain any isolated Silverstone card. For the audio PC this did not matter (as how it was prior to this change - and noise remains as high and looked completely the same). Now, with the NOS1 connected to the audio PC (with isolated Silverstone) as of the change I applied, the wire has to be LOOSE, or otherwise the noise is slightly worse (but I can't incur for any high levels any more anyway now).

How the power meter (to the audio PC) can show 4 Watts of usage more in this situation ? Of course I can't tell. But it should be related to current now flowing over hot + neutral while previously part of it went over earh as well (and the meter not taking that into account I'd say).

D*mn difficult stuff AGAIN.

Same album as the one because of which I shut off everything yesterday is playing for 22 minutes now. Maybe it is because of this typing that I still survive it.

???

Peter

PS: Can't listen much more today because I need to go out shortly.
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« Reply #116 on: September 15, 2014, 06:28:15 pm »

Oh My.....
Last night I did my research on another cable with
50Gz bandwidth.
I guess it's irrelevant now.

 dntknw dntknw

Or not. Happy

Or indeed. swoon

So I see you guys looking for the highest bandwidth, but all you can imply with that is amplifiers not coping. Or speakers.
So think about this ...

Peter
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« Reply #117 on: September 15, 2014, 10:51:15 pm »

Well, I'm with Joachim on this one.

I first tried the BNC cable (a single 5m run with BNC-RCA adapters at both ends) in my office system - NOS1 (not 'a') connected directly to Stax headphones. There was simply no question that this was the most transparent of the cables I had to hand, including some pretty expensive stuff. I listened for hours to this setup and had virtually no complaints. My wife also agreed. Incredible detail, but totally smooth. The most tuneful bass I had heard through these headphones. My Stax are >10 years old and were the cheapest of the range back then. I love their tone, but have always thought the LF is a bit full and slow. But not with the BNC cable - the bottom end really tightened up.

I then tried two 5m runs in series to create a 10m run. There was virtually no change in the sound - maybe a tad brighter, but really nothing noticeable.

Having assured myself that these cables were 'the real deal', I routed a pair of 10m runs under my floorboards from the NOS1a in my basement to the Orelo speakers in my main room. The sound was transformed (for the absolute better).

I hear no 'flavour' whatsoever. Even on the same album, differences between the recording/mixing/mastering of different tracks are clearly audible.

How can my experience be so different from Peter's? I dunno... Maybe his BNC-RCA adapters are not truly 50 Ohms, and mine are???

In any event, my BNC cables are here to stay until I can be convinced that they're adding a flavour to the sound. At the moment, I don't hear them 'adding any flavour', but rather hear them 'taking away a mask'.

Mani.
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« Reply #118 on: September 16, 2014, 09:03:39 am »

Quote
Maybe it is because of this typing that I still survive it.

I rephrased that a couple of times, but I think it still showed the opposite of what I meant to say (I just put it wrongly). During that typing I thought "okay, it won't be so that this doesn't disturb now because I'm typing and not really paying attention to the music ?!".

At this moment I am fairly sure that my noise problem played a large role in this all. So I say/quote it again :

Quote
It is not said (or 100% sure to me) that it is the cable which "creates" the distortion. I mean, it can also be that it passes on better what the source is really telling.

... and if the source contains noise ...

I was able to play a couple of albums yesterday after all and what I could tell from it is that the highs seem to be way more extended (+ refined !) than before. Mind you, this is with the (my) standard DSP setting hence the perceived "lean" setting. Well, nothing lean in there anyway and I really don't see how anyone would want more / more powerfull bass.

So, continuing with this cable ... yes

Peter
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« Reply #119 on: September 16, 2014, 11:06:41 am »

Hi Guys,

Seems to be a very interesting discovery (if I may call it). Certainly worth attempting as the cost is very minimal. However for guys (like me) who are still using a pre amp,  should we go a step further & attempt to change the interconnect between the pre amp & amp too?

Best regards,

Arvind
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« Reply #120 on: September 16, 2014, 02:49:53 pm »

Hi Guys,

Seems to be a very interesting discovery (if I may call it). Certainly worth attempting as the cost is very minimal. However for guys (like me) who are still using a pre amp,  should we go a step further & attempt to change the interconnect between the pre amp & amp too?

Best regards,

Arvind

Hi Arvind,

please see the PDF in the Reply #45 of this thread.

I do not have any experience with a 50Ohm BNC connection from the NOS1 to a preamp. You have to test it.

From my experience with the 50Ohm BNC connection between the Dartzeel pre- and poweramp the difference ( if we make it simple) to the RCA connection was appr. 20% in favour for the BNC.

You will get the best result/SQ omitting the preamp (Peters suggestion for the best SQ possible since the beginning), if your poweramp has a decent/reliable DC offset protection.

The BNC connection between the NOS1 and the poweramp creates a new SQ.
Mani wrote, that he do not hear any cable!

kind regards

Joachim




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« Reply #121 on: September 16, 2014, 04:01:41 pm »

Arvind needs the gain of his preamp ...

Quote
if your poweramp has a decent/reliable DC offset protection.

Huh ??
Only if you refuse to use the DC Offset procedure.
Or, of course, if you like to use Pahse Alignment.

Regards,
Peter
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« Reply #122 on: September 16, 2014, 04:16:26 pm »


Only if you refuse to use the DC Offset procedure.


Hi Peter,

eh? So I'm behind as always!  dntknw

Please explain. Thanx.

Joachim

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« Reply #123 on: September 16, 2014, 04:48:29 pm »

Joachim, explain about what ?
I don't understand. And I won't believe that you don't know how to set the DC Offset right in your NOS1(a).

And if it is not that, then it is your turn to explain ... yes

Peter
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« Reply #124 on: September 16, 2014, 05:37:33 pm »

Joachim, explain about what ?
I don't understand. And I won't believe that you don't know how to set the DC Offset right in your NOS1(a).

And if it is not that, then it is your turn to explain ... yes

Peter

Hi Peter,

thanx.

when you are talking about the NOS1 especially it's ok. Meanwhile I have another procedure for it, and it works quite well.

Joachim
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« Reply #125 on: September 16, 2014, 05:56:37 pm »

Hi,

I will check out the SQ diff between Nos1 & pre amp. I can't go without a pre amp due to gain reqd by the pre amp (as Peter mentioned) to drive the amps.

Probably a very stupid question; why can't the 50 Ohm coax cable be directly terminated with RCA. Why terminate it with BNC & then use an adapter.

Regards,

Arvind
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« Reply #126 on: September 16, 2014, 07:37:32 pm »

Only if you refuse to use the DC Offset procedure.

Huh? "DC offset procedure"? I know how to check the DC offset with the built-in meters, of course. But there is a procedure? For what? For minimising the DC offset? If so, please let me know where I can learn more about this - I've searched and can't find anything.

Mani.
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« Reply #127 on: September 16, 2014, 10:54:21 pm »

Today my cheap BNC arrived. 4 times 3 meters including adapters for 25 euro. Put it between the preamp and 4 mono poweramps. Tubes in pre and top-poweramp. Silicon in the bass.
Well it was very clear to hear the difference. The hash has gone, maybe lacking transients or just the distortion missing? I think the latter.
Because my son wants to see the soccergames the sound is coming from sattelite-tv through the pc and it is amazing how good even that sounds. TV-voices sounding very natural too!

I'll order more bnc's for all low-level sources.
At my supplier they have readymade cables of 3m for 50 ohm and .5m and 1m for 75 ohm. These are goldplated and look nicer but I'm convinced the better sound has to come from the interface between 50 ohm impedance from the cable and the different impedance meeting each other not in the boundary with the cable but in the boundary between adapter and amplifier. So reflections stay in the adapter.
This effect should be the same for 75 ohms, as long as both cable, connector and adapter are the same.

Thanks for this incredable tweek!
(Sorry for the manufacturers of expensive cables!)
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« Reply #128 on: September 16, 2014, 11:52:34 pm »

Hi,

I will check out the SQ diff between Nos1 & pre amp. I can't go without a pre amp due to gain reqd by the pre amp (as Peter mentioned) to drive the amps.

Probably a very stupid question; why can't the 50 Ohm coax cable be directly terminated with RCA. Why terminate it with BNC & then use an adapter.

Regards,

Arvind

Hi Arvind,

see this "explanation"

Signal cable
.........
Where possible RCA connectors should be avoided: they may be the established standard for most Hi-fi equipment but bring a number of disadvantages. The separated earthing they provide is not ideal and has a negative effect on the noise ratio. RCA connectors can also create reflection that can detract from the real signal in the cable. We recommend BNC cable with RCA adapters to reduce this.

from

http://www.phonosophie.de/International/setup.html

at the bottom of the page.

Joachim

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« Reply #129 on: September 17, 2014, 08:19:17 am »

Only if you refuse to use the DC Offset procedure.

Huh? "DC offset procedure"? I know how to check the DC offset with the built-in meters, of course. But there is a procedure? For what? For minimising the DC offset? If so, please let me know where I can learn more about this - I've searched and can't find anything.

Pfff ...  Happy

If you'd switch on your NOS1 without checking the DC Offset, then ?
Then it can be wrong and when so you'll *have* DC Offset.
So what do you do ?
You apply something to get it right. That "something" is a procedure. Especially because it's written out in the install guide.

It is as simple as that.
Let's stop this subject, because it is related to nothing. wacko

Peter
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« Reply #130 on: September 17, 2014, 09:49:03 am »

A small intermediate report from my side :

I can NOT be sure at this moment, but I think that the BNC cable shifts the spectrum in such fashion that generally dynamics are lost (or less would be a better description).

This is quite contradictionary because I am fairly 100% sure that the highs gain from it. But about the bass I don't know;

It feels like an "outward spread" from say 500Hz or something (the 500Hz is jist a wild guess and may be totally off). So think like this "cross point" is under-emphasized and what's taken out there goes to the bass and to the highs. The effect ? All is more slow.

What I will do for tonight's session is *lowering" the bass output. So, it is not only me saying that there's more bass output with this cable, and to me it is already clear that for my normal setting this now is too much. But notice : Not in the realm of too much really, but in the realm of something not being right. This very very much depends on the album (or recording if you want). But for example, a Bob Marley just doesn't want to play AT ALL any more. It is just completely coloured, heavy and without the snap it normally has. I say : the mid has gone. Just poop ... vanished.

How ?

Peter
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« Reply #131 on: September 18, 2014, 11:11:57 am »

And a next one :

Let's say I was able to solve the "issue" by lowering the bass output. Story is more complicated - but only to indicate that we can ignore my previous post.

Next though, Mani gave me a hint dat normal Arc Prediction could be better and "will post in the forum". Well, Mani apperently did not, and probably he withdrew his findings, but meanwhile I tried it myself ...

Maybe it's wrong judgement, but previously it was quite easy for me to hear the "distortion" from normal Arc Prediction. I mean, after using the Custom Filter this was easy.
But not now and I actually liked it very much.

So I don't want to make it all tooooooo complicated, but it looks like the "distortion" as such was incurred for by the normal interlink. And this can very well be (transients are higher with normal Arc Predition).

Although very much burried in this topic, and nobody will ever find it back, I now have a next remark :

The Custom Filter (from the also hidden 1.186-i) implies a slight flavour as well. I never told about this because in my view the "less distortion" was more important, but since now that distortion seems to be out of the way ...
The Custom Filter brings a small flavour of "hissing". Hard to explain because this is not hissing at all, but I don't know how to describe it better. Let's say that the top end of the frequency spectrum (OK the end that I can still hear) mushes into a "white" sound (not grey !). So when you listen closely you can hear this white flavour;

Yesterday, after setting all back to normal (the "standard") for my Oreo MKII speaker, and after listening to Arc Prediction, all came together and I (finally ?) heard back my usual sound (I have been using the Custom Filter exclusively since May). But the "usual sound" means : that now (somehow) it is right away obvious that *nothing* sounds the same. IOW, apparently we can get used to flavours as well (I knew it, but I learned to not be disturbed by it).

All 'n all today's message is : I think people using the Custom Filter should revisit Normal Arc Prediction *IF* they are using the BNC cable.

Peter
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« Reply #132 on: September 18, 2014, 01:08:37 pm »

I tried custom filter last night and did not like it compared with Arc Prediction. On the Elvis Costello track from hell it really did seem that the custom filter introduced a "metallic" type edgy distortion to the vocals. That is with my RCA interconnects. I will try coax in the next few days hopefully this weekend.

Paul
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« Reply #133 on: September 19, 2014, 10:16:24 am »


I don't think I need to wait any longer with reporting with what I hear today.
But first the sequence of happenings/changes, so people can follow; topics with main numbers and sub letters were applied/active at the same time (like 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d).

1a. NOS1.
1b. My previous speakers and amps.
1c. 75 Ohm coax Interlinks with Neutrik connectors. Length 1m80.
1d. Audio PC connected to mains earth.

2. Orelino Speakers + amplifiers.

3a. Orelo MKII speakers + new amplifiers.
3b. 75 Ohm coax Interlinks with Neutrik connectors. Length ~4m.

4a. NOS1a prototype (all components new).
4b. XXHighEnd Custom Filter.

5. NOS1a production version (used DAC board from my original 4 year broken in NOS1).

6. Bass tweaks for people who think they like more bass.

7. BNC Interlinks + RCA adapters. Length = 3m.

8. Disconnected Audio PC from mains earth.

9a. Back to native ("original") Orelo MKII DSP measured settings.
9b. Back to Arc Prediction.

BINGO

If you follow the sequence, you can see how things can creap in for the worse. Or better, how the one challenges for the other while actually we should always "reset" back to base. Well, look at my list. Undoable to even think about such thing. For example, why would I go back to Arc Prediction at the stage of #5. The well broken in DAC board sounded better, so "no need to". But it's just an example because it's full of it. Also see #8, which was for the (measured) better, most probably since 4a.

Still, I dedicate the biggest POSSIBILITY for change to the BNC cable. So if I now look what NET changed, it's actually only that (but a bit depending on where I start to observe the list / my history).

I can't even begin to tell what just the audible changes of going from #8 to #9 are. It's just totally crazy. As if I have cascaded 10 DSP processors with all their own goodies for the sound (OK, I am against DSP for such means, but I hope you get what I mean).
The room is so full of sound everywhere with *nothing* I could detect for anomaly or disturbing or whatever, during a sheer 6 hours of continuous playing.

I can also tell you that these 6 hours where the most challenging, especially when we moved outside for probably the last BBQ of the year and outside we listened to the music coming from around a couple of corners at something like close to 90dB hence my normal listening level, while inside it played at 110. For hours and hours everybody could pick their favorite to play (think a 100 tracks from 100 different albums), actually focused on "musical icons", meanwhile teaching our Paul what in our opinion those icons are. So it went all over the place, and much of it was from the 60's or early 70's. All sounded as good and as balanced.

What I just tried to describe is the for me very strange phenomenon that you can play for such a long time, and with so various material, that it is actally impossible that you don't run into something with too lean bass, too sharp highs or something else wrong. But nothing-nowhere.
This is how I wrote the BINGO"; as if I suddenly found how all the pieces of the puzzle must be layed. And that after so many years.

I am convinced it is about the interlink, because what it does was audible for me right form the start (just the same as Joachim described it), but all of that suddenly popped out in ten-fold. Why ? that must be the Arc Prediction Filtering.
And so my still a bit cautious conclusion :

With Arc Prediction the transients can be called infinitely high (depending on what's in the material). I could also say : there's nothing in there that filters those transient. No-thing.
The Custom Filter though, sure filters. It's only the the time-domain is still very OK (hardly any ringing).
Now we must think further and how those transients were "killed" in the normal interlink. Killed should mean : reflections of them and which for electrical (not digital) means high frequency reflections (or reflections of high frequencies (only ??) - also good).

What I just said HAS to be so, because after the NOS1a (that pronouncing all very better/more) I *had* to make the Custom Filter because I could hear distortion (and I did not blame the NOS1a). And the Custom Filter sure helped. It also ("at the same time") tamed the sound we could perceive as too fresh perhaps. I liked it.
Now ? well, now I'd say that 12dB of high output has been added and totally nothing distorts. It's back to the "infinitely highs" as I have described longer ago with which I mean that you can hear that it can even have way more highs output, and nothing will start to distort or get nasty. You just turn up the volume of the cymbals so to speak.
And with the (BNC) interlink now not messing up the signal, all is ... well, I can't describe it anyway. All I kept on noticing over and over again was that live bands played to us from the room inside.

If this is not the best ever, then I don't know.
heatheatheat
Peter
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« Reply #134 on: September 19, 2014, 11:29:15 am »

btw is that somthing Phasure can deliver? Would be nice to have exactly same type..  Happy

(the above from the other topic, because I think it fits better in here)

I have been thinking about that, because I can see that people have difficulties with obtaining the right type. Maybe it is psychologically because "we" want to improve further, but meanwhile nothing seems to happen for many.

So yes, of course, we can provide a set. I just looked at the invoice and it says EUR 73,74 for the set of 3 meters plus (gold plated) adapters. If I add 15 euros for the trouble plus the shipping (normal mail) then it's 90 euros.
Shorter/longer lengths are available too (max 5m).

Do notice that the 73,74 is quite ridiculous because it's still a 1$ cable plus connectors of a few. But in this case I don't like to make them myself (too dangerous for the soldering/crimping thinking about the exact 50 Ohm impedance FWIW Happy).

Regards,
Peter
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« Reply #135 on: September 19, 2014, 12:25:14 pm »

Peter,

Can you clarify exactly what your mains earth arrangement is (I have lost track!). You say that the music PC is not connected to mains earth. I know that NOS1a is also not connected to mains earth. So are the Orelo MkII's connected to mains earth? (I assume they must be!!). If they are does that mean that the music PC earth is connected to NOS1a earth (via the usb link) which in turn is connected to the MkII earth (via the coax interconnect). So there is just one mains earth connected and that is at the MkII's.

Or do you still have the USB link earth wire isolated?

Cheers

Paul
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« Reply #136 on: September 19, 2014, 01:08:09 pm »

Hey Paul,


Audio PC - No earth;
NOS1a - No earth;
Amps (speakers) - No earth.

USB3 in Audio PC - Isolated;
Ground wire in NOS1a - Disconnected.

Audio PC connected to Server PC through wired Ethernet;
Server PC connected to different Mains ring (incl. earth) with all further devices connected to *that*.

No Monitor connected to Audio PC (video card still in);
No mouse and keyboard connected to Audio PC.
Note : RDC goes via (same) Ethernet cable between Audio PC and Server PC.


I think this is all what's relevant.
Peter
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« Reply #137 on: September 19, 2014, 01:40:40 pm »


75 Ohm coax Interlinks with Neutrik connectors.


Peter,

I'm a bit puzzled.

How is this coax terminated?
Which Neutrik connectors do you use?

For those of us, like me, that have balanced amplifiers, how should we terminate the coax cable? Directly to XLR? Or via BNC and RCA and not using XLR?

Which coax do you use? I need 2 x 8 meter.

Many questions  scratching

Thanks.

Regards,
Stanley
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« Reply #138 on: September 19, 2014, 01:49:07 pm »

Neutrik is not offering 50 Ohm BNC connector. See here
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« Reply #139 on: September 19, 2014, 02:20:58 pm »

Quote
I'm a bit puzzled.

Stanley, am I crazy or did I see this post about literally like it is now before ? I am pretty sure, but I can't find it (in this topic).
Anyway, back then already I couldn't answer the question(s) easily because I don't see the relations well (and next I suppose I "forgot" because you deleted your post ?).

There is no THE coax cable with balanced (but maybe something can be tweaked - also see your own suggestion which is in the area).

I don't use Neutrik connectors, because there is no Neutrik connector in order anywhere (though in your NOS1 you can assemle 75 Ohm (RCA !!) CONNECTORS (mind the difference with PLUGS). And next you could use 75 Ohm coax; but it still does not comply to your balanced connection, so ...

So ... you can need 2x 8m, but of what ? of something which officially can't exist.

Best regards and don't get frustrated now ! Happy
Peter

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« Reply #140 on: September 19, 2014, 04:07:05 pm »

Hi,
Though a few recommendations have been made, the coax cables still seem a bit of a mistery. What are the technical requirements one would look for in a coaxial cable.
I found a cable which has a 50 GHz bandwidth. Though the BNC to RCA connector will not have this bandwidth (the adapters that I have seen in the 2 GHz range). Would this be a desirable parameter?
http://www.delaireusa.com/screamer.html

Thanks
VJ
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« Reply #141 on: September 19, 2014, 04:08:41 pm »

Quote
I'm a bit puzzled.

Stanley, am I crazy or did I see this post about literally like it is now before ? I am pretty sure, but I can't find it (in this topic).
Anyway, back then already I couldn't answer the question(s) easily because I don't see the relations well (and next I suppose I "forgot" because you deleted your post ?).

Best regards and don't get frustrated now ! Happy
Peter


Hi Peter,

Haha, .. I can't remember I asked about this before and I didn't delete a post.

But I now see this was addressed in answer #21 before.

Time for experimentation.

Regards,
Stanley
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« Reply #142 on: September 19, 2014, 04:46:27 pm »

Quote
(the adapters that I have seen in the 2 GHz range). Would this be a desirable parameter?

Hey VJ,

The cable itself looks good to me, but remember I already answered upon the high bandwidth (as a possible negative).

What I personally would not do is create (imply) that bandwidth difference between cable and adapter (as long as I knew about it anyway, like in this case).

But what maybe puzzles me more (also implied in a previous post) is that you guys make a lot of fuss about this, while all it takes is ordering a pair "just 50 Ohm BNC + adapters" el cheapos and give it a go. I mean, the $ can't hold you back, or ?

It's about the principle (OK in my modest view) of no-reflections and when "we" keep on looking for whatever other properties nobody can really judge, all what happens is ...
NOTHING.
I just checked my email, and for you 9 days have passed since you could have ordered them. You could have gotten them by long by now ... yes

Best regards,
Peter

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« Reply #143 on: September 20, 2014, 11:34:05 am »

Peter,

Can you clarify exactly what your mains earth arrangement is (I have lost track!). You say that the music PC is not connected to mains earth. I know that NOS1a is also not connected to mains earth. So are the Orelo MkII's connected to mains earth? (I assume they must be!!).

Audio PC - No earth;
NOS1a - No earth;
Amps (speakers) - No earth.

USB3 in Audio PC - Isolated;
Ground wire in NOS1a - Disconnected.

Audio PC connected to Server PC through wired Ethernet;
Server PC connected to different Mains ring (incl. earth) with all further devices connected to *that*.

No Monitor connected to Audio PC (video card still in);
No mouse and keyboard connected to Audio PC.
Note : RDC goes via (same) Ethernet cable between Audio PC and Server PC.

I played with this configuration for two days. Yesterday was the third, but at the second album something went wrong. And since that never happened to me before it can not be a coincidence :

A fairly loud tick, music stopped, another tick and music started again and I am almost sure that it was related to someone opening the door of the fridge (music stopped) and close it (music started).
But actually not sure because 20 seconds later again a loud tick and no fridge doors in order then. This is where I pressed stop.

Proceeded with Attended and this time 1 minute into the track, same thing. And because the loud tick reminded me of DC Offset, I checked that, et voilá. All wrong.
Huh ?

At this moment I am not even sure why music stopped (and was so easy to restart - just Stop and Play again, if not by itself anyway), but possibly the USB connection went out of order because of it.

This thus was with the "black wire" disconnected; I always advise people not to leave the room with that not connected, although I always do (it has been like that since May for this NOS1a configuration). This also because of the (forum) reporting of boleary (Brian) who seemed to have run into similar. In this case though, what was changed was the "no mains earth anywhere" configuration. So possibily this does not combine.

What I'll do tonight is play with the "black wire" connected. Next I hope I will forget about the issue, because such a loud tick is not really funny. Whether it helps ? maybe not.

Lastly, please notice that at this moment I do not see why a mains earth connection has to be there in the first place (from say one point at least).
So Paul, can you try to explain why you seemed so surprised about no earth connection anywhere ? Obviously you can be correct, but I don't see how.

Thanks,
Peter
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For a general PC :
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*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #144 on: September 20, 2014, 10:35:34 pm »

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So Paul, can you try to explain why you seemed so surprised about no earth connection anywhere ?

I am not sure I was that surprised there is no earth connection in your system. It was simply that I lost track and wanted to know what your earth connections were. When the topic of earth connections originally came up I followed it closely. I tried disconnecting earth's as discussed in the topic but it had absolutely no effect on sound quality in my system at all. So I did not pursue it and lost track of where your system got to. But I did end up by trial and error finding an earth arrangement that really worked well and reduced noise in my system down to tiny levels and that helped SQ a lot.

With house earth being a big aerial bringing all sorts of sh*** into the system not having it connected does have its attractions. But what about the safety implications assuming that the case say of your PC is not connected to PE (have I got that right?).

My system has a dedicated earth via a spike in the garden maybe that helps - anyway these 118dB horns have virtually no noise at all - I was really surprised at just how quiet they are.

Cheers

Paul





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« Reply #145 on: September 20, 2014, 10:58:47 pm »

I waited before trying the 50 coax 50 bnc interconnects in my system. I simply wanted to get used to my new speakers using familiar components including the (rather special IMHO) interconnects I use. These interconnects I have used for a few years and nothing else I have tried comes close. A couple of years ago I went to a hi-fi dealer (he bought my mono block SET amps) - my interconnects embarrassed every other interconnect he had to hand including some very expensive.. They have been absolutely fundamental to getting good sound quality in my system since I first tried them.

So how did the 50/50's sound? well when I first connected them they sounded very impressive - coherent good timing etc etc very impressive. But then after extended listening I started to tire of them. They really did not sound right at all. There is grey, dry sound which I find really irritating. They also introduce a harshness to the sound. Maybe they need running in - I have only given them 30 hours or so but I do not hold out much hope that they are going to end up with a permanent place in my system. But anyway IMHO a decent i/c needs virtually no running in.

When I put my usual interconnects back in my system the sound regained its colour and natural warmth - the kind of sound that could keep me up all night (if I was allowed!!).

Peter - you were using 75ohm coax i/c's and now you are using 50/50 coax. Personally I think that is a fairly limited comparison. Have you tied other interconnects in your current system?

I have not finished comparisons yet but that is the way it is looking so far.

Cheers

Paul
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« Reply #146 on: September 21, 2014, 12:40:18 am »

Hi there,

So how did the 50/50's sound? well when I first connected them they sounded very impressive - coherent good timing etc etc very impressive. But then after extended listening I started to tire of them. They really did not sound right at all. There is grey, dry sound which I find really irritating. They also introduce a harshness to the sound. Maybe they need running in - I have only given them 30 hours or so but I do not hold out much hope that they are going to end up with a permanent place in my system. But anyway IMHO a decent i/c needs virtually no running in.

When I put my usual interconnects back in my system the sound regained its colour and natural warmth - the kind of sound that could keep me up all night (if I was allowed!!).

This could have been my post.

Since my amps were slammed together as an interim experiment,  I had been busy first with regular maintenance and debugging on the power amp. I had to do some noise fighting and component tweaks and the result is worthwhile. Now I wanted to get used to this sound first before trying the 50 ohm cables.

I test drove the BNCs on my regular (low end) CD player and this was just unlistenable. Just like the RG58 cable I had fabricated with RCAs myself a long time ago. They fared a lot better on the NOS1a. Quite a drastic departure from the sound I am used to. There is a certain extra speed and clearness about the sound that is attractive, but the music is robbed from its soul and like Paul I am experiencing listening fatigue (irritation as result of hardness and lack of tone).

I'm afraid the BNC cable is never gonna fly in my system. Nothing lost though it was a too cheap tweak not to try.

regards, Coen
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« Reply #147 on: September 21, 2014, 12:49:41 am »

Hi,

Interview and two videos about cables from a technical aspect:

http://www.audioholics.com/gadget-reviews/speaker-cable-and-audio-interconnects

Joachim
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« Reply #148 on: September 21, 2014, 05:53:44 am »

Maybe they need running in - I have only given them 30 hours or so but I do not hold out much hope that they are going to end up with a permanent place in my system. But anyway IMHO a decent i/c needs virtually no running in.

Hey Paul, at 30 hours I felt the same, BUT, after 70 hours of running in things are dramatically better. I listened for a good four hours today. Incredible sound here.  I had no idea how grey sounding my old solid silver interconnects were. (Darwin Silver Plus.) Mid range-male vocals- have come alive here. Mickey Newberry's Shenandoah from his  Live in England cd was a revelation.
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« Reply #149 on: September 21, 2014, 10:03:00 am »

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Hey Paul, at 30 hours I felt the same, BUT, after 70 hours of running in things are dramatically better.

Hi Brian - I shall leave them to burn in longer but I also have an idea about a tweak to the cable so watch this space

;-)
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« Reply #150 on: September 21, 2014, 10:33:12 am »

May it help ...

I too had the distinct idea that the cable needed a couple of days of breaking in. And this is not something I experienced before. OTOH who am I with my 1$ cabling.

Peter
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XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores) @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *30*/-/*1*/*1*/*1*/ Q1Factor = *40* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *15ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.90*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / *OSD Off* / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Custom Filtering Highest for 705600* / Always Clear Proxy before Playbck = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (*8ms*) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #151 on: September 21, 2014, 10:57:29 am »

Peter - you were using 75ohm coax i/c's and now you are using 50/50 coax. Personally I think that is a fairly limited comparison.

Hi Paul - If that is so then I'm afraid you still didn't get what this is about. But I won't repeat it for the 10th time, and instead I'll put it differently now :

No ANY cable without a BNC connector or the like (many exist) is terminated properly. Also not when you spend a 10K on it. This, while a properly terminated cable costs ~1$ and the trick should be in there.

Additionally, not any interlink is allowed to show such huge difference, unless it is completely wrong or (~) completely right. I follow the theories of (~) completely right and work to that. If that does NOT work out, I seek further (see my "bad day" post from a week or so back) *and* I find something.
All other is subjective to our ears and system.

I also want you (again !) to please digest this in good fashion, which merely is for others, but which should put your own feet on the ground. So please :

You again or still, apply tweaks which are not mine. Best example is the sugar cubes, which I sent of pure misery out to you. And no, no need to come back with that in a "but I don't use them any more" fashion. You did, and you loved it while I got mad form them. Remember, these are TWEAKS without justification, until you put up that justification (now compare with the BNC cable but first understand its appliance). So now you're for sure using ByBees. Another sheer TWEAK. Mind you, no single tweak ever ever worked for me. This too is subjective (I could be fairly deaf) but what it's really about is that you put forward your findings in the context of your tweaks. Paul, this is useless to others.
And to yourself, because you won't know what you're listening to.

Everybody can do what he wants but I am here on this forum to protect people from listening to (or throug) subjective appliances.
And so I just tried, again.

Now please continue.
Regards,
Peter
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XXHighEnd Mach II Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon E5 2640v4 with Hyperthreading On (20 cores) @~720MHz, 32GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = *30*/-/*1*/*1*/*1*/ Q1Factor = *40* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *15ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.90*  (max 120) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / *OSD Off* / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Custom Filtering Highest for 705600* / Always Clear Proxy before Playbck = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (*8ms*) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #152 on: September 21, 2014, 12:25:47 pm »

I read somewhere recently that the recommended differential cable impedance for USB 2.0 & 3.0 is 90 ohms +/- 10%. Perhaps you should be experimenting with a different cable?
Plenty or research & whitepapers available
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« Reply #153 on: September 21, 2014, 12:59:59 pm »

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I read somewhere recently that the recommended differential cable impedance for USB 2.0 & 3.0 is 90 ohms +/- 10%.

FWIW : I investigated this and even MIL spec won't do better than +/- 15%. And all what I found further did not claim specs at all. Quite messy, this business.
What a dedicated Audio manufacturer makes of this ? no idea, but probably worse because it needs the ($$$$$) measurement equiment first.

The only thing I ran into is the iFi Gemini (http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-gemini/) which claims an exact 90 Ohms, but which I won't believe anyway because it's a trick (which can not be varified either). So in this case it's the easy separation of data and power, and that "will do it" ? No way. And if so, cause yourself not to need the USB power in the first place and you're done.
No, it is not as simple as that.

Anyway I tried to find something good, and I sure can obtain the +/- 15% cable (just over 100 euros), but I was actually looking for better specs. However, the sheer fact that a (rare !) manufacturer tries to make the best of it and *still* says +/- 15% (that's a 30% variation) tells me that it can't get any better. Here, most probably, it is about the same "issue" as with RCA, namely that no dielectric is physically possible because of the way of connecting. Now don't ask me what an e.g. 75 Ohm RCA cable will really be (this is a bit what Paul missed, perhaps), but take it that any small mismatch will imply reflections. And again : With digital this is allowed up to the point that data (LOWS and HIGHS) get interpreted wrongly, while with (our) normal analogue signal EACH small deviation (= reflection) will matter.
And so : what was regarded important for digital is even more important for analogue. OK, says me.

What I have been thinking of is self-create a balanced 50 Ohm connection; I think this can be done although it will be hard (for me) to verify whether it works, unless THD shows that it's all wrong. Now, the same I could attempt for USB; just use a 93 Ohm complete cable, and make it balanced in the same fashion as the balanced idea. And I do have all the 93 Ohm stuff (from ancient network history ...) while I no-where see it to purchase.
Could be fun ...

Peter
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« Reply #154 on: September 21, 2014, 01:07:47 pm »

PS:

Quote
And I do have all the 93 Ohm stuff (from ancient network history ...) while I no-where see it to purchase.

The first part of this is not entirely true;
I don't have the "output/input" terminals. However, I already looked around a bit in the office's attic, and possibly I am able to find a dozen or more old network cards who have them and which can be used (but it won't be a nice-looking solution). Anyway this is finite, so in the end not the real solution. But I'm fairly sure that when I look harder I can find something for 93 Ohm ?
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« Reply #155 on: September 21, 2014, 01:15:14 pm »

Quote
Remember, these are TWEAKS without justification, until you put up that justification (now compare with the BNC cable but first understand its appliance).

Peter - really no problem I agree with you 100% and I should not have worded my post the way I did (sorry!). I fully agree that TWEAKS are not the way to go in terms of the engineering development of a system. Absolutely I agree that comparison of 75 ohm without correct termination versus 50 ohm with correct termination is a correct and valid engineering comparison.

However for me, here, in this room, now, listening to my system, my normal interconnects are MUCH better than the coax. That is, in terms of sheer musical enjoyment, there is just no comparison. Now for sure I am listening to RCA interconnects that are not "properly" terminated. I may be listening to a whole bunch of distortion and liking it who knows?  Can I measure it? - no. However I feel I should post about it if only to raise a note of caution that coax is not (at this stage) necessarily a panacea (I get the feeling that interconnects are very complex and no one properly understands all yet). You have stated the 50 ohm coax with 50 ohm terminations is only the first step.

For sure, in future, I will think more carefully about the wording I use!!

Quote
So now you're for sure using ByBees. Another sheer TWEAK

Ah yes, to us we have to classify these as a TWEAK for the simple reason that we do not have the means to measure what they do in a circuit (at least I don't). BUT allegedly others (the scientists that developed them) do, and to them, I am sure it is not a tweak because they were developed using measurements and produced a demonstrable result. Well as we cannot do the measurements or see the results then I I have to agree they have to be classified as a TWEAK.

So it is time to put my hand up and say that I am guilty as charged - I have been found guilty of TWEAKERY of the first order. I shall be more circumspect with future posts.

Cheers

Paul


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« Reply #156 on: September 21, 2014, 01:38:30 pm »

Ya ya ya ya, that all wasn't necessary Paul.
But you emphasized the right thing : we can not measure and me neither ! And the latter I hate.
So it is still true that I spent two full days in looking for something affordable. I think it's that important.
Well, as long as we see that no snake oil exists or should exist, and when we start to believe it's all technical stuff we talk about. Never mind audio is voodoo some times.

ha !

Peter
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« Reply #157 on: September 21, 2014, 03:11:23 pm »

One reason folks might find differences with their coaxial cable is the difference in wire sizes and center conductor construction. By sheer luck I selected a cable with an 18 gauge silver coated solid copper center--no steel. (RG 142). I think the cheaper cables using RG58 conductor is a 20 gauge wire.

Below is a chart of the various types of coaxial cable from the company where I bought mine:



 

* 2K14M2_163-50Ohm-RG-Series-Coax-Cable-Assemblies.pdf (132.1 KB - downloaded 134 times.)
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« Reply #158 on: September 21, 2014, 04:12:55 pm »

Brian,

And what would be the benefit of that ?
(I don't say there isn't any - just checking Wink).

Peter
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« Reply #159 on: September 21, 2014, 06:15:33 pm »

Ready to buy BNC cables/Adaptors so after all the links and wire what do I buy off EBay? Ready to sell my SilverSmith Palladium $4K cables for $1.5K on the 'Gon Happy
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« Reply #160 on: September 21, 2014, 07:09:34 pm »

You won't find that on eBay. Too cheap. Haha.
And for me not easy to find directly in/from the US (I already tried). But I'll send you an email with some hints.

Peter
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« Reply #161 on: September 22, 2014, 03:27:29 am »

Quote
One reason folks might find differences with their coaxial cable is the difference in wire sizes and center conductor construction. By sheer luck I selected a cable with an 18 gauge silver coated solid copper center--no steel. (RG 142). I think the cheaper cables using RG58 conductor is a 20 gauge wire.

Quote
Brian,

And what would be the benefit of that ?

Well, when I wrote the above it was just a hunch. So this afternoon I got some six dollar a piece, 3 foot, RG 58, el cheapo solid copper BNC cable and compared them to my 20 dollar a piece, 3 foot, RG-142 solid copper-silver plated, high temp L-Com cable and the difference is huge. Earlier in this thread there was a comment that the cheap ( I assume RG-58) bnc cable sounded a bit slow and may have some loss in dynamics, but in all other respects, particularly the tonal balance of the low, mid and high frequencies, they sound very good. I can now verify that that perfectly described the cheaper RG 58 cable. But, I would add that after hearing the RG-142, the RG -58's sound mushy or as Paul suggested "grey."

The solid copper silver plated conductor - no steel- of the L-Com Rg 142 cables have transformed my system. You could say that all frequencies seem infinitely more focused, so the decay of cymbals, drive of the base and and resonance of vocals are all more clearly focused or defined with the consequence that the harmonics emanating from them sound more real than ever before. In one sense you could say the sound seems more bright or fresh, but not in a fake or objectionable way. Rather, its like you just opened the door to the club and you are immediately overwhelmed by the sound. Maybe I'm crazy or just like bad sound, but for me, this is the most significant change for the better in my system since I got one of Bert's amps.
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« Reply #162 on: September 22, 2014, 01:45:47 pm »

Well Brian, a hunch ?
I am 5 hours further now, and/but with your idea as my hunch, I come to the same. But not via any normal selection-search in there; therefore I first had to (again) visit the PDF you linked to. And, at first tried all sorts of cable types including connectors and possible adapters. Now it's easy to reach those five hours. Anyway, yours really looks the best.

However, apart from your RG241 (CC142B-[length]) I also ordered RG213 (CC213B-[length]; can be better for reasons but can also be worse for different reasons. So I am just going to try.

Ordering is somewhat more difficult from here because as well as from the US as from the UK distributor no automatic order can be put in (both for the same reason of shipping which can't be calculated (huh ?)) but I'll get there.

Thanks ...
Peter

Edit : http://www.l-com.com/multimedia/catalog_page/lcom_025-06_RG142_and_RG213_50_Ohm_Cable_Assemblies.pdf
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« Reply #163 on: September 22, 2014, 02:13:16 pm »

Quote
Well Brian, a hunch ?

I think its the same kind of intuitive hunch, or great good fortune, that pushed me to order XXHighend back in 2009. One must rely on such feelings when one has NO technical expertise.  Happy

It will be interesting to hear how the RG 213 sounds being 13 gauge and stranded. However, if you find that the RG 142 cable sounds truly terrible don't be afraid to tell!
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« Reply #164 on: September 22, 2014, 02:52:49 pm »

One other thing, the BNC/RCA adapter I ordered from L-Com and have been using has a nickel plated RCA center pin. Links to two other types of adapters I'm considering are below. One is plated in silver and the other gold.

http://rfsearch.rfindustries.com/ShowProduct.asp?classID=19&productID=3864

https://www.fastenal.com/web/products/details/0749410

Unfortunately the gold adapter only comes in packs of ten, though they appear to be of a much higher quality than the $1.25 ones that usually come up in a google search.
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« Reply #165 on: September 22, 2014, 10:26:22 pm »

Hi Peter,
Maybe better RG-214?
http://www.kabel-kusch.de/Koaxkabel/RG214U/rg214u.htm

Or RG213 from here?
http://www.elektronica-shop.nl/contents/nl/d160.html
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« Reply #166 on: September 23, 2014, 01:12:31 am »

In researching these cables you need to be careful of the makeup off the live conductor.

RG 142 is copper coated steel
RG 213 is stranded copper
RG 214 is stranded silver coated copper
RG 223 is single strand silver coated copper

Radio spares UK have info on all these.

All these cables should sound different.

I can't help but be sceptical of BNC claims to date especially as an interconnect. I mean Nordost are over priced but they have developed their cables backed with research. Perhaps they need to try the BNC plug approach.

I did always run 75 ohm BNC from my CD transport to DAC for many years and it certainly was an improvement over RCA. Interestingly we did try running coax as interconnect but without the BNC plugs using RCA. These were coarse sounding compared to better quality conductor cables.

Quality of conductors is paramount in my book which definitely means steel should be avoided. Its primarily used to strengthen cables in harsh conditions and is a cheap conductor.

I am intrigued and may try the RG223. Has anyone compared 75 ohm to 50 ohm?



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« Reply #167 on: September 23, 2014, 09:25:40 am »

Me not so happy me thinks ... swoon

Robert, you must be correct with the RG142. Maybe no wonder why I couldn't find any better than the one from L-Com. But are we hoaxed ?
Below two screenshots - one of the cable (spool) itself as they sell it and one of the assembled cable. With the first we might think that there's no space for the "steel" word. But the second shows it can't be an accident. Together with the page from Brian and mine (yesterday) there's now 4 pages of them showing this.

And yes, as far as I can see RG142B/U is officially steel.
grr

PS: I showed the first screenshot as done in order to show that L-Com sure is "capable" of telling about (clad) steel.


* LCOM01.png (121.56 KB, 373x834 - viewed 415 times.)

* LCOM02.png (39.57 KB, 605x130 - viewed 395 times.)
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« Reply #168 on: September 23, 2014, 09:39:47 am »

Here is data sheet from RS

Data Sheet RS Stock No. 521-5386
Cable Coax RG142 FEP brown 25m
Cross Section:
Description:
Rated Temperature (o
C): -70 ~ 200
Rated Voltage (V):
Product Standard Certification:
Flammability Test:
Construction:
Conductor: Silver Plated Copper Clad Steel
Conductor Dia. (mm): 0.94±0.02
Insulation: PTFE
Insulation Dia. (mm): 3.0±0.1
Braid Shield 1: Silver Plated Copper
Conductor Dia. (mm): 0.12
Conductor Qty: 16x7
Coverage: >90%
Braid Shield 2: Silver Plated Copper
Conductor Dia. (mm): 0.12
Conductor Qty: 16x7
Pitch(mm):
Coverage: >88%
Jacket: FEP
Outer Dia. (mm): 5.0±0.15
Colour:
The color of the insulation: Nature
The jacket color: Brown
Marking(3times/m):
RS 5215386 Cable Coax RG142 FEP brown
Performance:
Electrical Characteristics:
Frequency Attenuation(dB/100M)
700MHz 35.1
900MHz 40.4
1000MHz 43.0
2000MHz 63.3
 
Specified value (max.) is not more than 108% of the nominal
value
Character Impedance: 50 ohm
Capacitance: 95.1pF/M
Velocity ratio(%) : 70%

Check this page:  http://nz.rs-online.com/web/p/coaxial-cable/5215386/
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« Reply #169 on: September 23, 2014, 09:41:49 am »

What is interesting is you don't get these specs on so called HiFi cables but we pay silly money for them based on our ears!!!!!
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« Reply #170 on: September 23, 2014, 09:57:52 am »

A quick post as I'm in the middle of running a workshop for a client...

I currently have some el cheapo BNC cables. I should receive some raw H+S K_02252_D cable (RG142) sometime next week, so will have to buy some BNC connectors and stick them on before using (not sure when I'll get around to doing this). BUT... I've also ordered some pre-assembled H+S K_03252_D BNC cables (RG223) which should arrive in a couple of weeks' time.

Will report findings when everything's in place.

Mani.
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« Reply #171 on: September 23, 2014, 10:14:22 am »

What is interesting is you don't get these specs on so called HiFi cables but we pay silly money for them based on our ears!!!!!

And this is suddenly the fun for me because it's full of specs. So for example - and we must LOOK at that ! - the coverage of the shield. This is NOT part of the "RG" spec (as fas ar I know) while for shure this matters for the shielding (like the >90% and >88% of the RS example).

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« Reply #172 on: September 23, 2014, 10:27:09 am »

Something else we could learn, and what I told about in beteen some lines some day somewhere - about over-rating :

If you dive into this, you will see that the e.g. 50 Ohm spec is not equal for all frequencies. That this is "50 Ohm" is not important (can be 75, can be 93, 110 etc.) but that it varies the east is. Now undoubtedly the higher the speed rating of the cable (like the 2GHz etc.) the less variance there will be in the audio band. Problem always is : the proper interpretation because once you're into the "over-rating" the specs won't show what we really want to know (audio band). So for many of such things it needs endless reading and comparing so in the end you can draw conclusions from other properties.

And like I said/implied earlier in the topic : it can get really difficult once you focus on high rate cables (like for video or communications) while you will be able to tell in advance that something like the adapter will never be able to do that, because the (RCA) adapter will never have been made for such application (but think video and you still have a chance). And really, letting run the high frequencies (which always will be there - think many MHz) into something which blocks it (the adaptor) will imply reflections again.

So keep in mind, never mind many of us will have many hours of "investigating" behind us by now, it is STILL only a start.

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« Reply #173 on: September 23, 2014, 10:35:15 am »

Has anyone compared 75 ohm to 50 ohm?

I tried to find something yesterday for randomly 50 and 75 Ohm, but ended up (falsely ?) at the RG142. So relative to that I rejected all the 75 Ohm and it now looks like a lost 5 hours yesterday (if that RG142 is no copper at all).
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« Reply #174 on: September 23, 2014, 10:45:22 am »

This cable (double shielded) is Roberts proposal and it seems to be the best choice.

http://www.l-com.com/coaxial-rg223-coaxial-cable-bnc-male-male-50-ft

Joachim

* RG223-U.pdf (472.72 KB - downloaded 216 times.)
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« Reply #175 on: September 23, 2014, 01:31:44 pm »

Well if the L-Com RG 142 is steel then steel sounds better than you would think! Very weird that they list steel as a center conductor component in many of their cables but not the 142. I'm giving them a call today. I'm also going to order some RG 223.
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« Reply #176 on: September 23, 2014, 01:57:34 pm »

Well if the L-Com RG 142 is steel then steel sounds better than you would think! Very weird that they list steel as a center conductor component in many of their cables but not the 142. I'm giving them a call today. I'm also going to order some RG 223.

Hi Brian,

I do use an identical type cable to the RG142 with copper coated steel strands and the SQ is great. Let's see (hear) what the RG223 is emerging.

Joachim
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« Reply #177 on: September 23, 2014, 02:12:13 pm »

Well if the L-Com RG 142 is steel then steel sounds better than you would think! Very weird that they list steel as a center conductor component in many of their cables but not the 142. I'm giving them a call today. I'm also going to order some RG 223.

Haha, I wanted to replace my order from yesterday with the RG223. But the order was shipped already. So I just sent them an email with a "what's up ?" and the clear suggestion that they send a couple of RG223 for free. So of course they are going to do that, or they will tell that it's copper in there indeed.
If you call them, let them look in their email and tell them that you're not the only one. Or wait a bit until I receive a reply.



Good morning there,
 
Yesterday I put in the order of which you see the details below. But now I have a question :
 
The RG142 cables I ordered, where explicitly ordered because in various datasheets L-Com "claims" that the core is Cu. Please see attached for two examples of that. However, RG142 officially is steel, plated with copper. So can you tell me please, did I order for cables which won't suit my need, or does L-Com make cables which don't meet the official RG142 spec ? The latter is fine with me; the former I wouldn't be too happy about.
N.b.: By now I would have replaced the RG142 by the RG223 (this is officially Cu for the core) hence your item numbers CC223B-10 (x2) and CC223B-15 (x2) but I see the order has been shipped already.
 
?
 
Best regards from Holland,
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« Reply #178 on: September 23, 2014, 02:29:52 pm »



Good morning there,
 
Yesterday I put in the order of which you see the details below. But now I have a question :
 
The RG142 cables I ordered, where explicitly ordered because in various datasheets L-Com "claims" that the core is Cu. Please see attached for two examples of that. However, RG142 officially is steel, plated with copper. So can you tell me please, did I order for cables which won't suit my need, or does L-Com make cables which don't meet the official RG142 spec ? The latter is fine with me; the former I wouldn't be too happy about.
N.b.: By now I would have replaced the RG142 by the RG223 (this is officially Cu for the core) hence your item numbers CC223B-10 (x2) and CC223B-15 (x2) but I see the order has been shipped already.
 
?
 
Best regards from Holland,


Hi Peter,

shipping costs are? 25$ ?

Joachim
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« Reply #179 on: September 23, 2014, 02:40:06 pm »

Before i call, lets wait till the end of the day and see if they reply to you. Thanks for beating me to the punch!
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« Reply #180 on: September 23, 2014, 02:47:33 pm »

Hi Peter,

shipping costs are? 25$ ?

Joachim

Joachim, I don't know yet. We (from out part of the world) can not process the orders in full because the shipping costs can not be calculated (as how they do it). However, I could give my UPS account, and then nothing needs to be calculated and at some stage I will get the bill for it. But this will merely be something like $100 I'm afraid ...
Maybe they can ship by normal mail, but then it can take weeks ... (my shipment is due tomorrow).

Regards,
Peter
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« Reply #181 on: September 23, 2014, 06:44:38 pm »


No news from L-Com yet.

Meanwhile I just finished a pair of 93 Ohm (RG62).
Now I'll grab a beer and will press Play. Uh-oh ...
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« Reply #182 on: September 23, 2014, 07:36:04 pm »

I will try the Aircell-7 cable www.ssb.de/pdfs/6070_Aircell 7_en.pdf, because it's build from OFC copper. The cable manufacturer is manufacturing the 50 Ohm connectors too.

Georg



* aircell-7.png (113.39 KB, 401x334 - viewed 441 times.)
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« Reply #183 on: September 23, 2014, 07:58:18 pm »

Yo

So Georg, notice the actually better technical possibilities for stranded cable. Still, for audio this can work out quite differently than a single core cable. So let's see !

Peter
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« Reply #184 on: September 23, 2014, 08:04:08 pm »

Hope 93 ohm will match the NOS1a ...

Georg
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« Reply #185 on: September 23, 2014, 09:00:53 pm »

Brian,

No response from L-Com yet, and while it might run towards the end of their day, I'm about off as well (you know, dinner-happiness and such Wink Wink).

Peter
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« Reply #186 on: September 23, 2014, 10:27:59 pm »

About 75 versus 50 ohm:
When I was checking for the adapters I found a lot of them that said they were usable for 50 and 75 ohm.
But if you look at the attached picture you can see a difference inside the plug which results in a gap between the inner insulation between the plug and the adapter when using 75 ohm wire. This will give a discontinuty in the impedance of the cable probably leading to the dreaded reflections.
But then maybe not?


* bnc-connectors.png (337.91 KB, 623x255 - viewed 406 times.)
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« Reply #187 on: September 24, 2014, 12:16:02 am »

An answer from L-Com after all :

Our CENTER CONDUCTOR: 18 AWG. SOLID SILVER COATED COPPER. I hope that helps define your purchase.

What does this mean ? My English is not 100%. Reads like silver coated with copper ? nah ...
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« Reply #188 on: September 24, 2014, 02:01:07 am »

It does but type in RG142 in google and check other sites all but one(Farnell's) say silver coated copper steel.

http://www.awcwire.com/productspec.aspx?id=rg142-coaxial-cable

http://www.pasternack.com/images/ProductPDF/RG142B-U.pdf

The wiring industry does have strict standards especially with commercial grades as opposed to HiFi grades. Anyway not being a pain the cost is not a major issue and perhaps steel is the ONE!!!!
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« Reply #189 on: September 24, 2014, 02:42:21 am »

An answer from L-Com after all :

Our CENTER CONDUCTOR: 18 AWG. SOLID SILVER COATED COPPER. I hope that helps define your purchase.

What does this mean ? My English is not 100%. Reads like silver coated with copper ? nah ...
Peter, "Solid silver plated copper" means that the solid copper is  plated with silver... Why the "silver plated" between the "solid" and the "copper"... A language anomaly I guess, but it sure can be confusing when not too easy with English...

Alain

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« Reply #190 on: September 24, 2014, 11:54:19 am »

It does but type in RG142 in google and check other sites all but one(Farnell's) say silver coated copper steel.

http://www.awcwire.com/productspec.aspx?id=rg142-coaxial-cable

http://www.pasternack.com/images/ProductPDF/RG142B-U.pdf

But of course. And I know (now Wink) by heart.

Quote
The wiring industry does have strict standards especially with commercial grades as opposed to HiFi grades. Anyway not being a pain the cost is not a major issue and perhaps steel is the ONE!!!!

I personally don't think so, but I also don't know all;
(Still) Thinking this is not voodoo but just "properties" you should be able to find that in the properties of the material BUT as how it is spec'd. And may be not all is spec'd what is important (for audio) or measurable in the first place. Still I don't see it much, but I also did not investigate "micro" differences. So for example, if you'd examine steel and copper of the exact same thickness for the core and ALSO compare an exact same insulation for the both (which is all about propagation speed of the cable as a whole), probably you will see a difference. But take a month to sort that out ...

Otherwise, I would say that the sheer fact that steel (metal) will contain (more) oxygen tnan copper, will deteriorate your steel cable after some time. I am not sure, but I think that copper only oxidises at the outside, while a metal will also do on the inside (and eats itself out). So this is quite another reason, and you won't find *that* in specs.

If I am wrong on this, please correct me. I am THE cable illeterate !

Peter
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« Reply #191 on: September 24, 2014, 12:08:36 pm »

About 75 versus 50 ohm:
When I was checking for the adapters I found a lot of them that said they were usable for 50 and 75 ohm.
But if you look at the attached picture you can see a difference inside the plug which results in a gap between the inner insulation between the plug and the adapter when using 75 ohm wire. This will give a discontinuty in the impedance of the cable probably leading to the dreaded reflections.
But then maybe not?


Gerard, I have been looking at that (same picture) too;
With ALL the 75 Ohm cables I ran into, I never saw the connector like that. Now don't ask me what's truth and what is not. But I would say there *has* to be a difference in the dielectricum in the connector. One notice : When the connectors actually look (dimensionally) the same (these days ?) then there won't be this gap as you suggest.

However :

By pure coincidence I reasoned out myself yesterday (prior to seeing your post about this) that possibly it is harmless (what ? well, the non-fit between connections). The reason for thinking this you will find in my next post, but the argument for it would be that it is about the CABLE and what happens after that is short-distance stuff. But really, don't ask me ...
So cable is terminated, and beyond that - like with the poor RCA connector - should be unimportant, as long as distances *after* (and before) the terminating connectors are limited (to ??).

Oh man, what few things we know (in the end) ...

Peter
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