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Author Topic: Confirmed : PC Damping  (Read 119495 times)
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PeterSt
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« on: January 08, 2015, 10:45:26 am »

Yeah, now what.

Some people claim that a PC playing audio should be nicely damped just the same. Well, I have not seen those claims very explicit, but the subject passes by in between the lines some times and it always comes across to me a "I had some spare special footers so I put them under the PC".
Nice.
Nice, but how can it ever matter. I am not like that.

Yesterday because of a visitor implying the same ("it helps !") I was sort of forced to try it. More honestly, the person in question I regard to have fine ears (like my own but better shaped). So why wouldn't he be right on this; We agreed about everything else, so let's try something.

Ahum.

Let's say in general that a couple of different footers under the PC implies as much of a change as different footers for the NOS1a. Now that.
Ok, apparently many will know already, and it is only that the subject hasn't been passed explicitly in this forum that I know of, why I now like to make an explicit subject of this. So done.

Yea, but, ehm, no no, there's a 1 minute thought which went in advance of trialling this myself for this first time. And *that* goes a bit further than footers alone ...

Mobo main clock replacement....
That.

So you know, of course I don't believe sh*t of this. "Of course" because in my view (and happy to be the only one) this is such an out of control tweak - as it seems. Also happy to tell you that all my sensors pop out from everywhere, telling me that whatever happens is coincience, of course is not for the better in the end, and all the blahblahblah as usual from my hand (avoid my mouth !). Still, I 100% believe - and also always - that such a thing matters no matter who claims it in this forum. So matters, yes, but having it under our control for the better is yet to see. Same in this (Nick's) case. Want to believe, but there's nothing to really hold on.

And then there was this visitor telling about the footers, and there was the click in me - jitter !
eh ...

Well sure. If we first are able to proove that a thing like changing the clock of a MoBo makes a difference (for better or for worse does not matter) - and I reckon Nick did just that - then all I can think of is that this must be somehow jitter related. Mind you, in-PC only (for now). It is also not so difficult for me to think like this from the technical realm, because there's much "cleaning" going on in a PC and the processor. This is already needed to keep the clock edges stable, so the "de-skewing" as such process (circuitry) is named is a real time thing, continuously happening.

And so what my mind suddenly was capable of yesterday, was seeing the relation between Nick's clock endeavours and damping the PC for similar "clock jitter" reasons.
And weren't it that the past weeks I have been experimenting with clock damping in general, I might still not have received that "click".

But now this is going to be so far beyond of what we always thought about, that it's almost beyond belief of possibilities. So let's prepare for some new era ? See next post.
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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manisandher
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« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2015, 11:46:06 am »

So the fact that my PC and NOS1a are in a room totally isolated from the listening room is probably a very good thing, no? I mean, no speaker coupling whatsoever. But this has only really become possible, with no hit on SQ, since the Blaxius cables came on the scene. 10m lengths? No problem.

I now use Windows RDC to control the PC with a laptop via wifi. The PC itself has no wifi, just a LAN connection. (Actually, it doesn't even have a graphics card.) I would strongly recommend anyone to try this... BUT you have to have a NOS1a to ensure no SQ degradation using the LAN.

Mani.
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Phasure Mach III (Win 14393.0 on RAM-OS / controlled by RDC, / connected directly to music server / XXHighEnd 2.11 / Minimize OS / Engine#4 Adaptive / DB=4096 / Q1=10 / xQ1=15 / Q3,4,5=1 / SFS=4.00 / XTweaks = 34, 10, 0, 0, 0 / Straight Contiguous / Clock Resolution = 15ms / Scheme 3-5 (low/realtime) / 8x Arc Prediction / switch #5 'up/off' / Unattended) mobo USB3 port -> Lush^3 -> Phasure NOS1a B75 G3 -> 8m Blaxius^2 -> First Watt F5 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horn speakers
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PeterSt
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« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2015, 12:09:47 pm »

Quote
So the fact that my PC and NOS1a are in a room totally isolated from the listening room is probably a very good thing, no?

Hey Mani - No. Or "almost no". But it requires my next post. Not all so much time for it at this moment.

Regards,
Peter
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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PeterSt
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« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2015, 01:26:42 pm »

Watch out :
Read down to the end before jumping to (my) conclusions.


If we start looking at the normal audio oscillators, I must now "admit" that I have been experimenting with ultra-low jitter clocks. Think 27fs of RMS jitter (with adjacent superb low phase noise response, so for real).
I couldn't get this working. but let's look at two pictures from a while back :








So what was this about ?
The difference in jitter on the audio clock(s) while being silent (first picture) and while doing some "excersises" on the floor.
All with the notice that the first picture actually shows the scope's limits for time resolution (shows 13ps of peak-peak jitter) and the second picture shows jitter of 36ps which is NOT beyond the scope's limit. IOW, the 13ps will in practice be (way) lower, while the 36ps is for real.

What I want to say with this is that moving a bit up and down on the floor causes (max) 36ps of peak to peak jitter.
Ok, don't move, or bring the lot down to the basement we'd say.

Back to the start of this post - please do recognize that what I had at hand there was around 1000 times less of jitter (not completely comparable because the 27fs is "RMS" which implies more peak to peak than 27fs. But make that 100fs and it is still 250 times less.

Now the crux : this is totally out of control. Or at least that was my conclusion of it, not being able to "create" a decent sound, merely meaning : a consistent sound. One of which I could "see" which direction to go to improve where it wasn't right. And this is not so normal (for me).

What really happens is that while any base higher jitter is just that, but can be influenced to some degree by movement of the floor and such, this is only a relative "somewhat". To understand this : if the first picture already would have shown 36ps, the movement of the floor would not have shown more, but the distribution of the jitter would have changed. Will be audible as well, but not so much (as how I envision it). With the 27fs as the base though, breathing at 1m distance could already be influencing. So whatever happens, the ultra low jitter gets way higher and this undoubtedly in some oscillating fahsion. So think the music (sound pressure) hammering on to the clock, that influencing the clock, that influencing the music, that influencing the clock. Oscillation.

Bring it to the basement and you're good.
Yes ?

Let's think PC now;
Pull out your screwdrivers, hold the pin to the PC chassis and put your ear on the other end (better try not to put the screwdriver the other way around). What do you hear ?
"Sound" you may say. Ya ya, but sound is vibration. Period. So you hear vibration.

Of course, when there's no single fan in there, and only SSDs and no, ehm, transformers, then all should be completely vibration free. But maybe take out the capacitors as well.
Oh.

So you see, if I really can relate this to the audio clock experience, on which I completely gave up (which such crazy super detail in all kind of (inconsistent) aspects), then go figure.

And thus, all we need to do is map this phenomenon on to the MoBo's oscillator(s) - or the one on the USB card for that matter - and ... then what.

First we need to "think" is that the jitter the vibration and everything implies (including that from the listening room, the PC now assumed to be in there which is the case for most of us) is high enough to change the sound for whatever further reason.
Remember, I still assume that mangling that clock (per Nick's ideas) do influence the sound indeed, so from there it is logical to to think that just jitter does - no matter for now how (but see first post about (de-)skewing).

So yes, I have seen pictures of people having their spinning disks in rubber bands outside of the PC's cabinet. That sort of thing would be required. But more generally, and as already said, no moving parts are to be around.
Nice PeterSt, "Eureka". Yeah, well, I don't care, but it would be nice when "we" would be able to find the reason, instead of just following other's noses and be still out of control. So if the sheer reason is the influencing oscillators (crystals) then maybe we can do something about *that*.
How ? yes, nice question.


After the only few experiments we ran through yesterday, it (very preliminary) looks like the PC needs a sort of opposite damping as the DAC. Ok, can't avoid to be general (but like to) - and need to mention something such as the NOS1a. And let's make that "a" specific, because of the way better jitter specs than the normal NOS1. Anyway :

Say, generally, that the NOS1a requires a stiff damping, think hard wood-like. "Requires" ? well, to my liking for the accuracy and e.g. no stumping fuzzy bass. Make that rubber and the latter happens. Now put the same wood-like under the PC and all gets gray and with less bass. Easily audible. Music doesn't work any more either; things get flat.
Now put rubber under there and the very opposite would happen from doing that under the NOS1a : transients improve, bass is right
I know, not exactly the opposite as what happens for the NOS1a, but mere opposite from the wood vs the rubber under the PC and what I would expect from it.
And please watch out, because the situation will be very specific to mine and where the PC recides in the first place (floor, rack, closet, etc. etc.).

And yes, my PC has a running fan for the CPU cooling and contains one (2.5") spinning disk. Not more. Ah, active power supply cooling (fan). Yes.

Especially because these kind of vibrations are high frequency, I can expect that to be more hammering on "jitter" than the floor-excersise experiment. So worse.

I can extend the whole thing to the PC nicely vibrating in the cabinet (say my audio rack) while the NOS1a is in that same cabinet. Now things get more complex because what I did with the rubber under the PC is decoupling it from the DAC.

Ha ! So now we are confused. Bring your PC and DAC down to the basement and you achieved nothing.



Being at this stage of reasoning, I now tend to believe more in the PC influencing the DAC than the PC influencing itself for SQ reasons. So what would be more logical or easy to believe ?
a. The vibrations of the PC influencing the normal audio clock that causing additinal jitter;
b. The vibrations of the PC influencing its own clock that causing jitter (which would be true) to further reason out that it can influence sound.

Ad b.
I took this for granted because of Nick's experiments. Do notice though that it almost takes "nothing" to change a vibration situation towards the DAC. And might it be difficult to envision how : a USB connecting cable, that being not sufficiently free-floating, will couple the both; things in this realm will change the most easily after turning a screw or whatever change, just because you don't take them into account. So do in the future. Sound waves onto the USB cable, or interlink for that matter, already couple (to say, the DAC). And to understand and believe this, all it really takes is to try such 27fs RMS jitter clock and see that all suddenly matters like day and night. As "we" (NOS1a) have it, it is only less influencing because the jitter base is higher. So still under control, but we must think carefully how.

Now I hope this expands to something valuable some time.
Peter
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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christoffe
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« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2015, 02:17:43 pm »



First we need to "think" is that the jitter the vibration and everything implies (including that from the listening room, the PC now assumed to be in there which is the case for most of us) is high enough to change the sound for whatever further reason.

-------------------------

Bring your PC and DAC down to the basement and you achieved nothing.



Hi,

with less acoustic vibrations (from the listening room) you get
less jitter and
the SQ improves from both units located in the basement
(PC + DAC)

Joachim
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PeterSt
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« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2015, 02:23:35 pm »

Hi Joachim,

I'm afraid I have been totally unclear. Anyway, while what you just said is valid, it is not related at all to what I tried to bring across (or what this topic is about for that matter).

But OK !
Peter
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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manisandher
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« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2015, 07:09:23 pm »

Hey Peter, really interesting - thanks for sharing.

Of course, when there's no single fan in there, and only SSDs and no, ehm, transformers, then all should be completely vibration free. But maybe take out the capacitors as well.

So, should we be aiming for totally vibration-free PCs? ... And then take them into the basement ;-)

Mani.
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Main System:
Phasure Mach III (Win 14393.0 on RAM-OS / controlled by RDC, / connected directly to music server / XXHighEnd 2.11 / Minimize OS / Engine#4 Adaptive / DB=4096 / Q1=10 / xQ1=15 / Q3,4,5=1 / SFS=4.00 / XTweaks = 34, 10, 0, 0, 0 / Straight Contiguous / Clock Resolution = 15ms / Scheme 3-5 (low/realtime) / 8x Arc Prediction / switch #5 'up/off' / Unattended) mobo USB3 port -> Lush^3 -> Phasure NOS1a B75 G3 -> 8m Blaxius^2 -> First Watt F5 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horn speakers
Office System:
Phasure Stealth II -> Lush^2 -> RME ADI-2 Pro FS R -> Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Marvel horn speakers
christoffe
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« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2015, 07:26:23 pm »


Being at this stage of reasoning, I now tend to believe more in the PC influencing the DAC than the PC influencing itself for SQ reasons. So what would be more logical or easy to believe ?
a. The vibrations of the PC influencing the normal audio clock that causing additinal jitter;
b. The vibrations of the PC influencing its own clock that causing jitter (which would be true) to further reason out that it can influence sound.


Now I hope this expands to something valuable some time.
Peter

Hi,

Brians improvised layout is a good starting point for tests.

http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=3062.msg33261#msg33261

No rotating parts (inducing vibrations) are inside the cabinet.

Joachim

P.S. The best location for an AUDIO PC + DAC is "always" outside of the listening room (and the other gear too, if possible).
It would be interesting to hear/evaluate the differences in SQ between Michaels fanless PC and the XXH PC.

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« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2015, 08:22:10 pm »

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So, should we be aiming for totally vibration-free PCs? ... And then take them into the basement ;-)

Not too quickly perhaps. Remember, I only chose for option "b" because it seems more logical to me (PC influences DAC). So requires more testing and it is one of these things I am quite fed up with. Envision that I again have way better sound (as I think on day 2) and now already I must try out other things. But people can try themselves as long as you understand what could be happening. So or PC influences itself or PC influences DAC, or both.
But advice : try the softest under the PC vs the hardest (latter equal to nothing I'd say). The difference over here equals the difference for the same under the DAC.

Especially for you Mani such test is interesting, because you already *have* the lot in the basement. But when you encounter a clear difference like here it doesn't tell much, apart that no sound pressure is influencing the PC. So not sure.
(yes, better would be to bring up the PC to the listening room or at least elsewhere from the DAC - I know, no lust - haha)

Peter


PS: Thank you Joachim.
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2015, 08:30:19 pm »

Btw, maybe unbelievable but the most easy thing for me to do would be let now float the PC on water. All other implies easy mistakes with different mains and grounding and what not. Plus of course my poor USB cable is too short.
And when the sound is suddenly poor with the PC on water I can always drink the water instead of beer. scratching

But I like to do that really (no, not drinking the water).
Crazy stuff.
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2015, 09:01:47 pm »

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Make that rubber and the latter happens. Now put the same wood-like under the PC and all gets gray and with less bass

Interestingly I have some "hard things" with little holes in them that were under my NOS1a -ha ha. Recently removed from service and replaced with rubber feet (actually halves of racketball balls - and they are even blue to match NOS1a).

Maybe some experimentation is in order!!!

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621 Xeon 6120 LPS PC  -> Xeon Scalable 16/32 core with Hyperthreading On (all cores active) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.69  (max 140.19) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Off / WallPaper Off/ OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^2*A:B-W-Y-R, B:B-W-R* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> *Blaxius^2 A:B-R, B:B-R* Interlink -> Orelino Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2015, 09:07:07 pm »

Not too quickly perhaps. Remember, I only chose for option "b" because it seems more logical to me (PC influences DAC).

F*ck. I chose for option "a" !
Text (above) belong to that. Sorry ...

Peter
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2015, 09:23:41 pm »

Peter

b. The vibrations of the PC influencing its own clock that causing jitter (which would be true) to further reason out that it can influence sound.

What a result, it's very exciting to see the traces above quantitatively linking the PC's "operation" to DAC jitter with vibration as the stimulus.  clapping I'v also played around a little with vibration and EMI isolation here (eg moved the PC from the area of bass speakers, and placed clocks into enclosures etc) and it changed sound here too sometimes for the better, sometimes not.

There are the hardware level processes within the PC that have far greater linkage to sound quality, the PC's hardware "operations" massively influence sound quality. Certainly this is the case when using a DAC as transparent as the NOS1a but I'm reasonably sure now that virtually any DAC that uses a USB, Firewire or PCIe based interfaces will be very strongly influenced by PC's hardware.

Things have been slowed a little waiting for parts but lots of work is happening and more posts to follow  Happy

Regards,

Nick.
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C621 motherboard, Xeon 40 thread CPU.

 w10 14393 RAM OS => XX V2.10 / adaptive mode / XX buffer 4096 / NOS USB driver v 1.02 buffer 16ms / Q1,2,3,4,5 = 10,-,1,1,1 / xQ1 =15 / unattended / SFS 0.69Mb / memory straight continuous / system clock 15.0ms / Threadprio RealTime / Playerprio Low / CPU scheme 3-5 / 16x Arc Prediction / Peak Extend off / Phase alignment off / Phase off  / XTweaks : Balanced Load 35 / Nervous Rate 10 (or15) / Cool when Idle n/a / Provide Stable Power 0 / Utilize Cores always 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability  On =>  Lush USB cable => modified NOS1 USB DAC => no pre amp => Orelo active horn loudspeakers with modified bass channel DSPs.

Music server: X99, Xeon 28 thread PC.

System power two 3kva balanced tranformers with dedicated earth spur.
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« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2015, 11:27:31 pm »

Hi Peter,

Interesting!  But I really really don't want to be thinking about this stuff, and perhaps neither do you, the number of combinations and permutations are staggering and I think that getting to the 'basics' or essence of the issue will be very important here without getting sidetracked.

So, first question regarding your jitter images in post #3 above.  Can you be sure that your exercises did not affect the measuring equipment as well as well as the dac?  Or perhaps one more than the other?

Cheers,

Anthony
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Stealth Mach II with Xeon E5 2698 v4 20 Core 2GHz  with Hyperthreading On [40 cores]/ 32GB Ram / RAM-OS / mobo USB port

XXHighEnd 2.11 RAM-OS (W14393 RAM)
Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Buffer 4096 / Q1/3/4/5 = 14/1/1/1 / xQ1 = 1 / Processor Core Appointment Scheme = Core 1-3 / PlayerPrio = Low / ThreadPrio = RealTime / ClockRes = 1ms / Not Switch during playback = off / Xtweaks Balanced Load = 43 / Nervous Rate = 100 / Cool when idle = 1 / Provide stable power = 0 / Utilize cores always = 1 / Time Stability = Stable / Time Performance Index = Optimal / SFS 0.90MB Max 120MB / Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect = on / Start Playback during conversion = off / Do not start playback at all = off / Copy to XX-drive by standard = on / Always clear Proxy before Playback = on / Stop Remaining Desktop Services = on / Stop Desktop Services = on / Stop Remaining Services = on / Stop WASAPI Services = on / Stop W10 Services = off / Keep LAN Services = on / Persist = off / Use Remote Desktop = on/ Arc Predict / Minimize OS = on / Peak Extend = off / Unattended

Audio Chain
Stealth MachII PC >> Lush^2 USB 1.1m >> NOS1a G3 B75, Driver v1.0.4 (4ms) >> Blaxius^2 >> 10Y DHT Preamp >> 6 way active horn speakers (Single Ended Triodes)
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« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2015, 11:39:38 pm »

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Hi,

Brians improvised layout is a good starting point for tests.

http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=3062.msg33261#msg33261

No rotating parts (inducing vibrations) are inside the cabinet.

Joachim

And Ya'll thought I was  crazy.....  Happy Anyway, here are a few more pictures. In the first picture ( I hope its first) are the various footers I've settled on. Moving left to right, the first footer is cork/rubber and four of them are under the PC power supply, which is outside the case, the next are little gizmos that were $25 for three from China and three of them sit under the spinning HD- also outside the case, the next are Daruma3-II (no longer sold) and the are under the NOS1 next to Peters little rubber pads, and the last is a Stillpoint Ultra Mini (see: http://www.stillpoints.us/). They are pricey (around $300 for three). I have three of them under Berts amp, 3 under the PC and three under the granite slab that the PC power supply and hardrive sit on. (Okay, now you can call me crazy again.) The Stillpoints absolutely transformed the sound in my room.

In the second photo you can see that I have the DAC and amp on 3" thick maple blocks (Timbernation.com). The blocks have 4 attached brass cones that pierce the carpet and rest on the floorboards.

Regarding the footers I have tried all possible combinations, including rubber vibrapads, not shown. The cork/rubber I consider my soft ones. They did not sound good under the PC or the DAC, both of which preferred the hard Ultra Mini and Daruma III's respectively. Interestingly the DAC sounded terrible with the Ultra minis.

Off course, all of my testing was unscientific, trial and error---Peter's worst nightmare. But, in the end, the sound in my room is really pretty incredible.

One last thing. The round "thing" on the DAC is a 5 lb granite skull my brother got me for Christmas one year. It helps too!





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* 1.JPG (64.88 KB, 448x299 - viewed 1247 times.)

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XX2.07/MB: ASRock Extreme 4M , i7-3930K @ 0.5GHz/ RAM-OS W10586/32 Gigs 1600 DDR3/ Clarixa usb cable  /Q1,3,4,5 = *14*/1/1/*1* / *Q1Factor = 1* / Peak Extension: Off/Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *.5ms* / Straight Contiguous / SFS = *.02,/ Do Nothing With Cover Art / not Invert / *(Phase Alignment Off  / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Real Time / Scheme = 3-5 / UnAttended (Just Start) / *All* Services Off except LAN & RDC/ Persist off/No OSD / No Running Time / Minimize OS / Boost on/XTweaks : Balanced Load = *40* / Nervous Rate = 1/ Cool when Idle = NA / Provide Stable Power = 0 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Best/ Time Stability = On/ No Up-sampling/R-2R DAC
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