And now my sound is SCARY

[PeterSt]

Hi All,

Since last Monday I have a new tweak operational.
Btw, later we will see that I posted in the wrong board (Thoughts about the Sound Quality as of now) and that this has to (has been) moved to elsewhere.

At the first day I recall that one of the first albums I played was Tusk (Fleetwood Mac). And, that I didn't recognize a thing of THAT album. So go figure. All very very strange.
(I played it for the first half only)

The second day I was trying to find my ways (what to play to test this all) and what I recall of that is that I tried a few different XXHighEnd settings which didn't help really for something which could be strange. But was it strange ?

The third day I really liked it. I don't know why. Probably because the "strangeness" didn't/doesn't incur for a flavor (and as we know I hate favors).

I have been thinking about burning in being in order, but once you know what I did ...

Fourth day was yesterday (I skipped one day this week) and possibly I needed the help of a visitor who came by to collect his NOS1a upgrade.

Well, I'm actually asking my vistor from yesterday to jump in and confirm a bit, because it maybe was a bit too crazy to be true. I will try to explain ...

At some stage we play Stanley Clarke. Just to see how an electric bass is working with this "version". Within a few seconds I hear myself say "this is scary". But "scary what" ?

As usual being bothered by not knowing English really, try to think about what Thriller (Michael Jackson) is supposed to do, but also envision the video clip of it). Thus, literally scary. And explicitly NOT the "scary" as how we would use it in Dutch for audio in the sense of scaringly good. No, something you get afraid of.
But what to get afraid of when listening to a random Stanley Clarke track ? Well, not sure yet (though see more below) but let's remember how a Tusk album can become unrecognizable. So something is going on and it is so strange ...

Maybe it was the humidity or something else I'm not aware of (that is not under our control), but indeed all sounded very very good yesterday. Maybe this was because of my more explicit focus because of the visitor (it's about the only time when I listen super seriously - when a visitor is there), but I noticed very strange things in the most familar tracks (say those I could play each two weeks). And now I am writing this, it is again about the louder and softer I wrote about for W10 in general (about Neil Young's varying distance to the microphone) but now at a different level. Unexplainable, but think like someone singing in front ot the microphone and when his/her sentence has been sung, he/she steps away from the microphone for 3 feet. So it really becomes totally silent when the singing stops. And of course, singers really do this (step away). But I never heard it, and now heard it in everything.
A first glimpse of "scary" now emerges, because somehow this creates a tense. But this can even be suspense ...

As a final thing we played an "ambient" track, which is synthesizers and stuff and this gave the big bang. Ok, the literal scary bang;

Again this is a track in the category "play each two weeks", but this time I thought "okaayyy and when do we start ?". Too saltless or so (the track is over 9 minutes). I experienced this as the explicit silence, similar to the singer stepping away from the microphone). This time though no singing in order anyway, so what's up with this ... well, yea, something *is* playing of course. I must say that all what was playing for "background" was mainly sub low. Roars (say 26Hz and lower).
Then after two minutes or whatever of too long silence in my view, things started to happen. And NOW it was literally scary. I found myself to be in a movie without pictures (meaning : no imagination in order) with now not only tense but even suspense. Very interesting but uncomfortable at the same time. Interested in the next 10 seconds, but maybe scared for the result, which is without pictures anyway. Was I being hypnosed ? What actually causes this all ? Is it the very fine high pitched sounds which keep on playing right through the more rough sounds (I really noticed that as quite impossible). Was it the 110bpm type of beat which had been there for a minute or 2 ? (this IS hypnotizing).
I really coulnd't tell.

And still this is only 10% of the real big bang, which latter only came after I stopped the track after 6 or so minutes ...

Envision two guys which within the second after playback was stopped in choir - and out of breath - tell each other the exact same things (even in the same sequence). It started with "shhhhhhhh**t - SCARY".
We talked about how it actually could be possible that such a thing was put in there on purpose. And many more of these vague things but which all were brought up by us *both* anyway. No coincidences in sight !

But try to envision - for my visitor this was an unknown track. For me it was a track I play each two weeks. Still we both were as enthusiastic and surprised about it. Not the slightest less with me.
And so something can happen that even makes Tusk unrecognizable.

Peter

[Gerard]

Hi All,

Since last Monday I have a new tweak operational.
Btw, later we will see that I posted in the wrong board (Thoughts about the Sound Quality as of now) and that this has to (has been) moved to elsewhere.

At the first day I recall that one of the first albums I played was Tusk (Fleetwood Mac). And, that I didn't recognize a thing of THAT album. So go figure. All very very strange.
(I played it for the first half only)

The second day I was trying to find my ways (what to play to test this all) and what I recall of that is that I tried a few different XXHighEnd settings which didn't help really for something which could be strange. But was it strange ?

The third day I really liked it. I don't know why. Probably because the "strangeness" didn't/doesn't incur for a flavor (and as we know I hate favors).

I have been thinking about burning in being in order, but once you know what I did ...

Fourth day was yesterday (I skipped one day this week) and possibly I needed the help of a visitor who came by to collect his NOS1a upgrade.

Well, I'm actually asking my vistor from yesterday to jump in and confirm a bit, because it maybe was a bit too crazy to be true. I will try to explain ...

At some stage we play Stanley Clarke. Just to see how an electric bass is working with this "version". Within a few seconds I hear myself say "this is scary". But "scary what" ?

As usual being bothered by not knowing English really, try to think about what Thriller (Michael Jackson) is supposed to do, but also envision the video clip of it). Thus, literally scary. And explicitly NOT the "scary" as how we would use it in Dutch for audio in the sense of scaringly good. No, something you get afraid of.
But what to get afraid of when listening to a random Stanley Clarke track ? Well, not sure yet (though see more below) but let's remember how a Tusk album can become unrecognizable. So something is going on and it is so strange ...

Maybe it was the humidity or something else I'm not aware of (that is not under our control), but indeed all sounded very very good yesterday. Maybe this was because of my more explicit focus because of the visitor (it's about the only time when I listen super seriously - when a visitor is there), but I noticed very strange things in the most familar tracks (say those I could play each two weeks). And now I am writing this, it is again about the louder and softer I wrote about for W10 in general (about Neil Young's varying distance to the microphone) but now at a different level. Unexplainable, but think like someone singing in front ot the microphone and when his/her sentence has been sung, he/she steps away from the microphone for 3 feet. So it really becomes totally silent when the singing stops. And of course, singers really do this (step away). But I never heard it, and now heard it in everything.
A first glimpse of "scary" now emerges, because somehow this creates a tense. But this can even be suspense ...

As a final thing we played an "ambient" track, which is synthesizers and stuff and this gave the big bang. Ok, the literal scary bang;

Again this is a track in the category "play each two weeks", but this time I thought "okaayyy and when do we start ?". Too saltless or so (the track is over 9 minutes). I experienced this as the explicit silence, similar to the singer stepping away from the microphone). This time though no singing in order anyway, so what's up with this ... well, yea, something *is* playing of course. I must say that all what was playing for "background" was mainly sub low. Roars (say 26Hz and lower).
Then after two minutes or whatever of too long silence in my view, things started to happen. And NOW it was literally scary. I found myself to be in a movie without pictures (meaning : no imagination in order) with now not only tense but even suspense. Very interesting but uncomfortable at the same time. Interested in the next 10 seconds, but maybe scared for the result, which is without pictures anyway. Was I being hypnosed ? What actually causes this all ? Is it the very fine high pitched sounds which keep on playing right through the more rough sounds (I really noticed that as quite impossible). Was it the 110bpm type of beat which had been there for a minute or 2 ? (this IS hypnotizing).
I really coulnd't tell.

And still this is only 10% of the real big bang, which latter only came after I stopped the track after 6 or so minutes ...

Envision two guys which within the second after playback was stopped in choir - and out of breath - tell each other the exact same things (even in the same sequence). It started with "shhhhhhhh**t - SCARY".
We talked about how it actually could be possible that such a thing was put in there on purpose. And many more of these vague things but which all were brought up by us *both* anyway. No coincidences in sight !

But try to envision - for my visitor this was an unknown track. For me it was a track I play each two weeks. Still we both were as enthusiastic and surprised about it. Not the slightest less with me.
And so something can happen that even makes Tusk unrecognizable.

Peter

Yes!! Something fun again 

[PeterSt]

Hint : For you it can work, Gerard. But not for all.

[JohanZ]

For me too? 

[PeterSt]

No Johan, not for you.

[PeterSt]

No Johan, not for you.

Or maybe. It is a bit diffcult to see (through). Difficult to test as well.

Peter

[AlainGr]

Scary... As in Halloween haunted music ? Like a rabbit would say, "I am all ears" But no carrot to eat while playing music... It masks the low level details

Alain

[PeterSt]

[Gerard]

Hint : For you it can work, Gerard. But not for all.

So NOS1a related 

[AlainGr]

Ha ha ! This pumpkin has lots of definition and such an expression ! Now I am getting hungry

Alain

[Leo]

Time for the visitor during the SCARY sound session to speak. I have had the opportunity to visit Peters place several times  since the NOS first emerged. Every time I come away with the feeling that this must be the maximum that can be achieved with the playback of prerecorded music. But this time I was really overwhelmed. First by a Ray Brown and Almeida piece that has a very special personal importance for me. I have heard that many many times as I bring it along for demo's for years and years. In the middle the bowed bass goes really low and for me this time, the bass of Ray Brown sounded better than ever. By far. And then this ambience piece, a type of music that never touches me, only on a more rational level trying to figure out what a audio system is capable off. This time this music/these sounds were so involving , I was really being drawn into it, it was scary enough to raise the hair on my arms. Later parts were more 'normal' and so to me less interesting. And then Peter and I started to talk almost at the same time to say how scary it had been. That was a bit scary in itself. Amazing realism. And I am warned for the next visit! Never believe that Peter is finished yet in getting his audio thing better and better. What fun and privilege it is to be a witness to this journey.

[PeterSt]

Ah, Visitor-Leo ... thank you for the nice read !

Next time more ...
Peter

[PeterSt]

[Gerard]

Hahaha

[rakeshpoorun]

Sorry to intrude on what appears to be a private joke being shared between host and guest but I could not help noticing "Windows 10  Preview 10074 RAM Version" being selected.

Is this Windows 10 OS in Ramdisk?  It can't be surely?...

Rgds
Rakesh

[PeterSt]

Hi Rakesh,

It can't be surely?...

If it can't, I can.

Peter

[PeterSt]

Hey Gerard, your keyboard is broken !
hehe

Edit : Oh, deleting posts eh ?
self-operating keyboard ?

[Gerard]

Hey Gerard, your keyboard is broken !
hehe

Edit : Oh, deleting posts eh ?
self-operating keyboard ?

Haha i hate this tablet

[juanpmar]

Are you guys trying get on our nerves? 

Is that the famous tweak?

Juan

[PeterSt]

Is that the famous tweak?

Hey Juan ... If you mean the "tweak" I mentioned in the (I think) first post ... Yes.

It is not famous YET that I know of. But maybe it makes it to be just that ?

[rakeshpoorun]

Are you guys trying get on our nerves? 

Is that the famous tweak?

Juan

Hi Juan,

I am with you there. As far as I know they are speaking double dutch (pun intended for anglosaxons)!

I think we should vote to introduce a method of negative scoring obscure, hidden meaning, indecipherable posts!

If that is so(Windows OS being entirely run from Ramdisk), it potentially has monumental implications for our hard drive configuration.

Yes, if Windows OS/XXHighend/Galleries/Playback(i.e. music files) are all running from quad-partitioned Ramdisk, then for me that means, we can throw the rulebook out of the window (the figurative real deal not the Microsoft one).

How about that? Use a very fast SSD in PCIe slot that has Windows OS/XXHighend/Galleries/Playback in one place but with amazing transfer speeds to transfer everything at quicksilver speed to Ramdisk at boot-up and everything works at lightning speed from there on.

Is this so? That would be most remarkable! Please say it is...


Best rgds
Rakesh

[juanpmar]

Is that the famous tweak?

Hey Juan ... If you mean the "tweak" I mentioned in the (I think) first post ... Yes.

It is not famous YET that I know of. But maybe it makes it to be just that ?

Famous: refer to someone or something widely known.

Until now it was not known by anyone, so it was known only in the imagination of those who read the forum. A kind of virtual fame. But enough speculation.

If I have to see it in the bios, in my case at least, or it is not possible or I don´t know how. Or it is not in the bios?

Come on Peter, you can not leave us this way!

I think we should vote to introduce a method of negative scoring obscure, hidden meaning, indecipherable posts!

Rakesh, this is my vote: -0,5 

I hesitate to vote worst just in case Peter gets angry and we have to wait one more week. 


Juan

[rakeshpoorun]

I think we should vote to introduce a method of negative scoring obscure, hidden meaning, indecipherable posts!

Rakesh, this is my vote: -0,5 

I hesitate to vote worst just in case Peter gets angry and we have to wait one more week. 


Juan

Hi Juan,

I fully endorse your vote, subject to the following reservations:

1. This may work!
2. It might save me money!
3. It is something I was half considering anyway, although thus far I was not completely sure as to how to make it happen. You do have something called non-volatile Ram but that's for highly specialised enterprise applications and costs a small fortune, unless you are Bill Gates.
4. I share your qualms about upsetting Peter for slightly different reasons. I still need him to upgrade my NOS1 to NOS1a next year.
5. Simple economics and undiluted timorousness really. If I negatively score him slightly less than you, you suffer the brunt of the fall-out.

Now that everything has been weighted, the pros and cons carefully assessed, I will go with:

-0.49999...

Best rgds
Rakesh

[rakeshpoorun]

W8 or *W10* (both use the same settings) - June 7, 2015 (2.02)
XXHighEnd PC -> i7 3930K Hyperthreading On (12 cores) @430MHz (!), 16GB, Windows 8 Pro 64bit or *Windows 10 Pro 64 bit Insider Preview build 10074* on SATAIII 2.5" 7200RPM spinning disk, XXHE on 2GB RAMDisk (IMDisk), music on LAN (*always On*) / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *4* (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive 2GB RAMDisk (IMDisk) / UnAttended (Just Start) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - *Persist* / WallPaper *On* / OSD *On* /Running Time *On* (pref. as Bar but as Number sounds better) / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *63* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = On / *Custom Filter Mid 705600* / -> USB3 (Silverstone both sides isolated = Sw#3 of NOS1a = Up) -> *Clairixa USB* -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (*4ms*) -> Blaxius BNC interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere

Hi Peter,

Can you please at least update your signature?

Otherwise methinks that could be construed as misleading, as in incorrect, as in not quite true, as in likely to induce into error, as in quite deceitful really, likely to cause argument, conflict, civil disobedience, peaceful demonstrations, civil wars, insurrections (you get my drift)...

Thanks
Rakesh


P.S.

Requirements for Windows OS:

"To: How big is Windows 10 on DVD and HDD?
»» x32 (on the DVD ~ 2.5 GB, after installation on the hard disk drive ~ 9.0 GB)
»» x64 (on the DVD ~ 3.5 GB, after installation on the hard disk drive ~11 GB) "

So, Peter,  even with 16GB of Ram, you may be able to pull it off, but just about....The reality being that you really need another 8-16Gb of Ram. You are a worthy hero for a twenty-fist century sequel to Mapes Dodge's 'Hans Brinker, or the Silver Skates.'

[juanpmar]

Peter,

Now I see that you used Windows Boot Device. I can get there but no idea how to put Windows in the Ram, so better I wait for your instructions.

Juan

[acg]

You have my attention Peter.

[music33]

Not sure if this is what Peter is doing, but link on how to run Windows in a RAMDisk, watch the video.
http://reboot.pro/topic/16646-run-windows-7-from-ramdisk/

cheers,
dave

[rakeshpoorun]

Not sure if this is what Peter is doing, but link on how to run Windows in a RAMDisk, watch the video.
http://reboot.pro/topic/16646-run-windows-7-from-ramdisk/

cheers,
dave

Yep, I saw that before but Grub4win seems to officially only support up to Windows 7 but maybe it works with Windows 10.

Still, I do not understand why this should have implications for sound quality. XXhighend makes minimal requirements of Windows OS so I imagine both CPU draw and power consumption are negligible.

I can see how this would change practical aspects of building an 'audio pc' but I doubt it ought to make any ostensible change to sound let alone make it 'scary,' presumably meaning by that "realistic."

I am of course wrong but if I had to bet, I think above speculation is not quite it. There is something else afoot...

Best regards
Rakesh

[PeterSt]

I had a post here I didn't like and which wasn't relevant to anything anyway.

[PeterSt]

Not sure if this is what Peter is doing, but link on how to run Windows in a RAMDisk, watch the video.

Hey Dave,

Yes, I investigated that one too but that is hardly something to work with for practice. Also, it implies knowledge which "we" don't have, so you won't get there with watching that video anyway. "You" ? well, that's the point; you may, depending on your experience. I, for example, from a normal ICT life would not. But then I have been researching this extensively and indeed I would get away with it (still not easy, but alas).

But yes, that shows that it is possible and often it starts with such a good feeling (for the good spirit and being eager and such).

Thanks,
Peter

[PeterSt]

Now I see that you used Windows Boot Device. I can get there but no idea how to put Windows in the Ram, so better I wait for your instructions.

Hi there Juan and all,

This is the big problem ... those instructions can not exist because they are way way out of "our" experience. And oh, please keep in mind that I am even talking about myself here, the one who got it all running. It is out of space ... or from another planet.

Think like this :

After very much preparation (which includes months of work 2 years or so back) I sat down for it again first thing on Saturday one weekend back. Btw I thought to pick it up again because I mentioned it for a reason I forgot in Rakesh's topic. Know a bit more again by now and such - blahblah. Catching some breath Saturday 7pm with nothing working yet. Sunday 7am continuing with a slightly different approach, remembering that what I attempted Saturday failed for the same reason two years ago.
Sunday 5pm or so a booted the OS from RAM ...

While carefully writing down on paper the steps I applied (and attempted), on Monday I first started to wrote that out in a Word Document because you know, the procedure is too long to ever remember (say it is a full day of applying commands, once you know what to do). That writing took me a sheer 4 hours. I ended at page 7 ...
Throughout that writing I had several times the thought of "no wait, this can't be right - must have been the other way around" etc. etc.
So I should have a document for myself of 7 pages that will let be do it again if necessary. And the document is not telling about opening command prompts in elevated mode and privileges and Normal OS Mode vs MinOS mode and when and such and this and that. It could be 40 pages if I had to explain it to the unknowledged ...

The remainder 6 hours or so of that Monday were about installing XXHighEnd and memory sizes and ... etc. etc. Look :

Requirements for Windows OS:

"To: How big is Windows 10 on DVD and HDD?
»» x32 (on the DVD ~ 2.5 GB, after installation on the hard disk drive ~ 9.0 GB)
»» x64 (on the DVD ~ 3.5 GB, after installation on the hard disk drive ~11 GB) "

So, Peter,  even with 16GB of Ram, you may be able to pull it off, but just about....The reality being that you really need another 8-16Gb of Ram. You are a worthy hero for a twenty-fist century sequel to Mapes Dodge's 'Hans Brinker, or the Silver Skates.'

So yes, I can just as well say that Rakesh knows his stuff. Am I confusing ? I hope not. Meanwhile though it is a nice example of the other way around :

Of course all runs in 16GB of RAM but it takes 30 minutes of sitting back myself and staring at XXHighEnd parameters on how to do it and whether it requires a new one for something etc. ... which appeared not necessary.
30 minutes of thinking FOR ME. No mistake, I am not implying that I am so good at this. I do say that out of all I should be the very first and maybe the only one because it is my software. But still it needs 30 minutes of thinking and reasoning. And trying other sizes. And finding means to REsize. Etc. etc. etc. ...

This is not for normal human beings and it is only for me because I am totally crazy and eager and persistent and ...

... and because I know how to always present this :

A PC around it.


Maybe some of you remember how I ~ two years ago was able to make a backup in 2 minutes and a restore in 1 minute. This is based on this same thing. It was meant to be shipped with the XXHighEnd PC and how to provide backup means of the OS which is tweaked at 500 topics for W8 (300 for W7). How I wanted to have such a thing for everybody ... but which can not work because of driver stuff.

With the danger that not many can follow me, this is a bit of the same problem; I can make copies of that base hdd, sell it for a nice price with even a free W10 Preview etc. on it (actually how we use it today), but I see all kinds of problems happening when such a live OS is put in a different PC from the one I created it on. And then what ? then I am answering questions for the rest of my life while you in the mean time lost even your grey hair.

Anyway this is how this originally was in the wrong board (Sound Quality) and how I now moved it to the XXHighEnd PC board. But not sure at all yet, at this moment.
This is also how I said that Gerard could have it and Johan not. Or maybe.

Peter

PS: For fun, below the end of my document towards the end of page 7.

[acg]

Peter, is the OS booting from/to RAM persistent?  That is, once it is done, it is done?  Or does the process need redoing every time you reboot?  I'm just trying to get my head around basically what it is exactly that you have achieved.

If I had to guess I would say no, you don't have to re-do it every reboot or after every shutdown unless you are relying on the W10 reboot procedure that saves stuff to RAM for quicker reboots to prepare the OS in ram.  Easier to say and talk about than to write.

But kudos.  I also spent a couple of days trying to get this done a year or two ago but was unsuccessful.

Oh, and I am offering to check your procedure here if you like...haha...serious.

[PeterSt]

Hi Anthony - Very justified questions. See next post I just prepared when I found yours.

Peter

[PeterSt]

Some additinal info to make it somewhat more "believable" :

While it could be THE achievement of my XXHighEnd Life to have the OS running in RAM and now no single device attached to the PC any more, we should be aware of this :

All this won't make any sense when it would be a one time exercise. I mean, being able to boot from RAM which takes you an hour to next hope that all keeps on running for the next month and all changes applied being disappeared after that ...

To understand what I mean : If people use XXHighEnd as how it is supposed to be and they use a RAMDisk for not only playback but also for XXHighEnd, they will notice that changes can be applied to Settings and that they are preserved. Of course, half of you does not know that and takes his own measures for this (or not and lose the settings), but ... As we know, a bit of music playback should also come with some comfort, if possible.

So when I had this working for real this Monday (last week) the biggest challenge came about : how to make it WORKABLE. How in the word to make changes to an environment like we are used to (be that the OS itself or be that XXHighEnd settings and all we are used to), when the OS and everything runs from RAM.
Of course I could funnily quote some sentence from Rakesh again, but that's not really the idea (plus I am not Bill Gates indeed).

In between the lines I can tell about an additional big hurdle : MinOS. Veeeeery nice, but nothing works in there (but sound). So whatever could be of some theoretical help from the OS itself - no-go.

So this is what I got running last Sunday at 5pm or so. All now works completely normal. ALL.
It will need XXHighEnd 2.03 to control this all in good fashion. Like "Hey you fool, you are going to shut down the OS but you never saved the settings to permanent storage; are you going to attach that or what ?!".

Or the more simple task : Just reboot and find the system rebooting in RAM Mode completely automatically.

Peter

[PeterSt]

I could also add this :

Supposed you have changed a few things and settings need to be saved, then a reboot will take about 2 minutes.
When no settings need to be saved, it also takes these same 2 minutes (to make clear how it is NOT working - haha).

A quite large part of these 2 minutes (maybe over 30 seconds ?) springs from how Windows 10 deals with a dual boot (which is what this is - never mind you saw 3 boot options). This means was introduced by Windows 8, but only the cold boot takes this "larger route". With Windows 10 this always happens - at least with this 10074 build.
So for recognition : such a dual boot now always takes two subsequent boots and I can not help that.

Peter

[acg]

Some additinal info to make it somewhat more "believable" :

So this is what I got running last Sunday at 5pm or so. All now works completely normal. ALL.
It will need XXHighEnd 2.03 to control this all in good fashion. Like "Hey you fool, you are going to shut down the OS but you never saved the settings to permanent storage; are you going to attach that or what ?!".

Or the more simple task : Just reboot and find the system rebooting in RAM Mode completely automatically.

Peter

Well this sounds absolutely fantastic!  If I understand you properly there is no easy way of getting past the pages of instructions that many of us will not be able to do without considerable help, but once we get there XXHE should operate pretty much as normal.  

If so, I can see why you think you will spend forever answering questions about why things don't work when/if we try to get this operational ourselves.  Can you think of any way around that?

Cheers,

Anthony

[PeterSt]

Can you think of any way around that?

That is the sort of sad thing - No. But maybe you made an unintended combination, Anthony. So doing it yourself I regard out of the question (just BECAUSE it will be way over the head of most). But supposed the HDD can be provided, then you'll have this :

but once we get there XXHE should operate pretty much as normal.

So this is quite crucial and the anser to that is a full YES. You won't even be able to see that all runs from RAM, unless you see your HDD laying on the floor and think

There's one other thing not mentioned, though logical because of the whole objective : all anticipates no devices in the PC indeed. Thus, music is behind the LAN.

Lastly, all I can guarantee at this moment is that it will work fluently for all with the XXHighEnd PC. Outside that I just don't know (yet).

Peter

[PeterSt]

Last thing for explanation from my own initiative :

At booting you insert the normal HDD, or USB3 stick with bootable OS on it. Or USB3 disk. Etc.
Once booted, remove the medium.

Want to shut down ? then put it back in again.
Logic : You need it at the next boot anyway, so put it in which meanwhile allows for saving the changes (which goes automatically).

Furthermore :

Boot into that normal medium (HDD etc.) in normal fashion (the BASE version you saw in the screenshot) and you can apply each change to the OS you like. Reboot and you will find it applied in the RAM version.

Or

Be booted in the RAM version, let XXHighEnd 2.03 give the command to open the normal HDD (etc.) after you inserted it, and change files etc. "behind the  back" of the RAM version. Reboot and you will find those changed files in the RAM version.

Dizzy ?

Peter

[Gerard]

Sounds Like foodoo   

[PeterSt]

I had a post here I didn't like and which wasn't relevant to anything anyway.

That was because I misread something. But it was a response to this, I now will re-attempt :

Still, I do not understand why this should have implications for sound quality. XXhighend makes minimal requirements of Windows OS so I imagine both CPU draw and power consumption are negligible.

Rakesh, of course you can think what you want. But I am telling you again that your ideas are 180 degrees the (opposite) direction of what's "main stream" these days.
Please stop doubting things publically while you did not even fire up XXHighEnd one time (at least that's what I think).

I can see how this would change practical aspects of building an 'audio pc' but I doubt it ought to make any ostensible change to sound let alone make it 'scary,'

... and take it from me (please) that you could be making a fool of yourself by expressing such a thing. I am saying this in good spirit !

Regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

How about that? Use a very fast SSD in PCIe slot that has Windows OS/XXHighend/Galleries/Playback in one place but with amazing transfer speeds to transfer everything at quicksilver speed to Ramdisk at boot-up and everything works at lightning speed from there on.

Is this so? That would be most remarkable! Please say it is...

No, it is not. Booting may be faster (who cares) and the remainder doesn't make a hair of a difference;
All was optimized already with zero I/O during loading of tracks and during playback (LAN I/O during loading Yes, but that remains).

Peter

[CoenP]

Last thing for explanation from my own initiative :

At booting you insert the normal HDD, or USB3 stick with bootable OS on it. Or USB3 disk. Etc.
Once booted, remove the medium.

Want to shut down ? then put it back in again.
Logic : You need it at the next boot anyway, so put it in which meanwhile allows for saving the changes (which goes automatically).

That's a simple instruction even I can remember. This sounds like a fantastic option!
 
I was guessing you used the Music PC as a "diskless boot server" and the XXPC as "diskless client". For making that work you also need administrator level Windows skills, especially with an unsupported version. I guess both solutions have some similarities.

regards, Coen

[Leo]

I will use very short sentences. To make it very hard for Rakesh to misunderstand. However hard he tries. I saw that Peter had taken out the HDD with W10, the OS. XXHighend  played from a PC with no hhd connected. What this remarkable step adds to the sound quality is hard to tell for me. Because it was the first time I heard the upgrades (NOS1a, the Blaxius, Clairixa, the Orelo's). And they were combined with this hdd-less development. What each of those improvements adds to the overall sound I therefore don't know. And sorry, I don't even have a theory about it. The combination however was very, very good. And as said before, with some music scary, really scary.

[rakeshpoorun]

I had a post here I didn't like and which wasn't relevant to anything anyway.

That was because I misread something. But it was a response to this, I now will re-attempt :

Still, I do not understand why this should have implications for sound quality. XXhighend makes minimal requirements of Windows OS so I imagine both CPU draw and power consumption are negligible.

Rakesh, of course you can think what you want. But I am telling you again that your ideas are 180 degrees the (opposite) direction of what's "main stream" these days.
Please stop doubting things publically while you did not even fire up XXHighEnd one time (at least that's what I think).

I can see how this would change practical aspects of building an 'audio pc' but I doubt it ought to make any ostensible change to sound let alone make it 'scary,'

... and take it from me (please) that you could be making a fool of yourself by expressing such a thing. I am saying this in good spirit !

Regards,
Peter

Hi Peter,

Of course I take your comments in the "good spirits," in the spirit indeed in which they were proffered, no doubt.

In some ways, if I may give myself some  credit here, about a month ago, I more or less imagined a solution which is indeed the one you seem on the verge of making reality, when I wrote:

So I understand the decision to have your playback motherboard with only the processor, ram (and I imagine your Silverstone EC04-P card must be located in a PCIe slot on this motherboard). So the Playback side is reduced to its bare minimum and separated from everything else, whether it be storage or system disks? This is a very purist approach indeed and fits in with your objective which is to make sure that there are no external demands being made on the generally acknowledged "dirty" PC power supply.

It seems to me that this is probably the most important design decision you made in your Music PC. If there is one aspect of your Music PC that I would like to be able to afford to implement, assuming I had a clear understanding of how to implement it, this is the one I would go for.


Best regards
Rakesh

As I said, I investigated that possibility later on, and I had made a mental note of finding just such a solution in the future...I am delighted that thanks to your non human attributes, as you put it, you have been able to resolve this conundrum of the "audio pc," where the pursuit of a minimalist set-up comes into conflict with the very nature of the personal computer.

So many thanks from me, and no doubt many will join me, for the remarkable result you have achieved although I suspect that it will be a little while before a boot-up XXHighend USB (or the like) will become available.

In the same post as the one above, I went on to consider the implications of such a solution:

the 2 PCs connected with a direct LAN connection.

...

Alain

If you have your OS disk on a separate motherboard, then of course it needs to be over a LAN. Is there a minimum throughput of data transfer that one should aim for in a LAN? This is a rather important question if one is thinking ahead in selecting the motherboard as most of these come with some form of inbuilt LAN, going from what I understand to be the run of the mill versions to 2Gbe, 4Gbe and 10Gbase-T...


Best regards
Rakesh

I imagine that this question, in due course, will now become more pertinent.

It is interesting that Intel has recently launched their 14nm  socket CPU which has integrated 10Gbase Lan and consumes only 45W at load even though it offers 8 cores/16 threads (only 32 pcie lanes but that will do and supports max 128GB memory). This could be the ideal solution CPU wise for that next generation "audio pc."

Again, what a wonderful achievement, Peter. I take my proverbial hat off to you.

Best regards
Rakesh

[rakeshpoorun]

Hi Leo,

My first post here was tinged with maybe some sarcasm and Peter suggested that I think it over. So I did. Below is the heavily edited result.
 
From your visit at Peter's which lasted several hours, you handed us this profound piece of remarkable insight:
 

...
What this remarkable step adds to the sound quality is hard to tell for me. Because it was the first time I heard the upgrades (NOS1a, the Blaxius, Clairixa, the Orelo's). And they were combined with this hdd-less development. What each of those improvements adds to the overall sound I therefore don't know. And sorry, I don't even have a theory about it. The combination however was very, very good. And as said before, with some music scary, really scary.

Now I do not doubt for one moment that Peter is so well tuned to the many characteristics of his system that he can instantly attribute changes in sound quality and improvements to the last change that he has effectuated.
 
So the other changes that had happened since your last visit were:
1. NOS1 to NOS1a
2. Use of Blaxius interconnect
3. Use of Clairixa USB cable
4. Change from whatever was before to new Orelo speakers
5. Other changes that may have been relevant but not visible, such as better electricity on the day and god knows what else
 
Well, Leo, you could distinguish among the different levels and characters that these many individual changes have made to focus on the core improvement brought about by the implementation of Windows OS in RAM. I am impressed by this ability that you have and that is quite unique amongst the people that I know and have known who care about audio.
 
This being so, thanks for realising the difficulties I have always faced with reading and comprehension, just being a little bit "slow on the uptake" really...
 
 

I will use very short sentences. To make it very hard for Rakesh to misunderstand.

So I would like to extend my heart-felt thanks for you making the effort of using "very short sentences."

English is a third language for me so my situation was always a little bit hopeless from the start, although my parents, teachers, and countless others tried their very best...Thanks for being so understanding.
 
Kind regards
Rakesh
 
 

[Gerard]

Peter,

I wonder with this OS on Ramdisk is there still difference between W8 and W10?

 

[PeterSt]

Hi Gerard,

I can't tell but I am pretty sure there is because W10 itself sounds quite charachteristic (don't you agree ?). So that character, which is mainly in the highs for the more explicit sound did not change with the RAM version (I am not sure it got emphasized, but it merely is about the "presentation" which changed.

I must admit that I should test this with W8 just the same, but it takes quite a lot of time to set up a first OS like this (opposite to cloning a disk for a second). But I like W10 better anyway ...

Peter

[Gerard]

Hi Gerard,

I can't tell but I am pretty sure there is because W10 itself sounds quite charachteristic (don't you agree ?). So that character, which is mainly in the highs for the more explicit sound did not change with the RAM version (I am not sure it got emphasized, but it merely is about the "presentation" which changed.

I must admit that I should test this with W8 just the same, but it takes quite a lot of time to set up a first OS like this (opposite to cloning a disk for a second). But I like W10 better anyway ...

Peter

Ok 

[juanpmar]

Peter,

The ultimate goal seems to be a Music Pc with nothing inside except the motherboard and memory. Now that the music is on a LAN, to put the OS and XXHE on Ram is another step in that direction. A big step forward that requires, as it seems, overcoming enormous difficulties.

I would like to make a couple of questions about something much more ordinary, I'm a little embarrassed due to the high level of this topic, but here are the questions: what about the cpu fan? Your XXHighEnd PC has one fan and I have three. And, what about the power supply? Is there a way to feed the PC with an external power supply? We know they have also influence in the SQ.

Regards,
Juan

[christoffe]

I would like to make a couple of questions about something much more ordinary, I'm a little embarrassed due to the high level of this topic, but here are the questions: what about the cpu fan? Your XXHighEnd PC has one fan and I have three. And, what about the power supply? Is there a way to feed the PC with an external power supply? We know they have also influence in the SQ.

Regards,
Juan

Hi Juan,

in my opinion Michaels fanless PC configuration with an external PS is a good starting point. I got my none switching external PS for the laptop, and the SQ improves  with more details and a very quiet background. We don't need the >150 Watt CPU's for the best SQ possible, except you like speed for processes (FLAC to WAV conversion etc)  prior the start of the music replay  for your convenience.

Joachim

[music33]

Hi Peter,
I am very intrigued as it sounds like a lot of research went into this.  Another possible approach is to use WindowsPE (https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc709665(v=ws.10).aspx).  Just reading about it, I have my doubts it would work as you would need to figure out how to load the drivers you need among other things.
Do I sense a new version of the XXHighEnd PC...

[rakeshpoorun]

And of course, if one looks carefully, there is this chinese company that seems to promise just such a solution.

www.disklessangel.com/en

"Our product 'Diskless Angel' can take Microsoft Windows 7/8/ME/NT/2000/2003/XP/Vista to run totally in RAM under diskless condition, it can serve the purpose of environmental protection, saving power consumption and elimination of virus infection (virus will be destroyed after rebooting the computer once virus infection occurs)."

Obviously one does not know until one tries it.

Naturally, given Peter's enthusiastically contagious expose above, I would be inclined to put more trust in Peter's solution given that it will take into account the environment of the XXHighend PC.


Best regards
Rakesh

[PeterSt]

And of course, if one looks carefully, there is this chinese company that seems to promise just such a solution.

Odd ... I know that and now I have been looking for 15 minutes why I never dove into that. Must have been something ... (wrong with it).

[PeterSt]

Another possible approach is to use WindowsPE (https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc709665(v=ws.10).aspx).  Just reading about it, I have my doubts it would work as you would need to figure out how to load the drivers you need among other things.

I have tried that, but it can't work with audio - uhm, IIRC because I tried so many things.

Windows Embedded brings us further and I have had that running (not from RAM but this is (now !) just a next step). But it is almost undoable to get this going in the way you like it because it costs half a day to set up one OS and try it ... thus boot and find that something is missing. Up comes a next half of a day.
So I gave up on that.
Btw, things can be automated to some degree so this half of a day becomes 30 minutes or whatever, but this was too difficult to get going (ok, for me, so what about some education).

Peter

[PeterSt]

Do I sense a new version of the XXHighEnd PC...

what about the cpu fan? Your XXHighEnd PC has one fan and I have three. And, what about the power supply? Is there a way to feed the PC with an external power supply? We know they have also influence in the SQ.

At this moment the least I see happening right now is a stripped down version of the PC; exactly the other way around as how it was made at first. So at first it was made for being able to house xxTB of hardisks, a pile of USB(3) connections etc. and all flexible, while now that can all be literally stripped off. It can, but whether that's really doing something to SQ depends. So, *that* (SQ) will depend largely on varying draw and e.g. a USB connection may be (if at all) leaking some draw but it will not vary. But I'm also thinking about ground loops, so ... all not much clear yet.

Fact is that I have detached my 3 chassis fans for more than a year now, because there was the OS 2.5" hdd in it only anyway and the CPU (though cooled (in silent fashion)) is not warmer than 40 Celcius at any time (plus I have the lid off all this time).

The power supply is another thing and as was just talked through in the other topic ... let's say that Anthony is working on that and I am waiting for it (and remember, I have one but it didn't work out and at some stage I surely can't do all at the same time PLUS what Anthony plans is way beyond anything "normal").
Something else is that I feel that the "normal" linear power supply is NOT doing what it theoretically promises. I see no proof of it anywhere and to give one example from our own circles : even Mani stays silent.

Anyway, not easy to answer these questions. Say I'm not prepared.

Regards,
Peter

[christoffe]

Something else is that I feel that the "normal" linear power supply is NOT doing what it theoretically promises. I see no proof of it anywhere and to give one example from our own circles : even Mani stays silent.

Regards,
Peter

Hi Peter,

Since one year I’m going a different route (8xAP only) with a laptop, which is with the performance  in comparison to the “others” very slowly (especially for 192KHz files I have to avoid) , but the SQ was superior to my audio PC with an I5 processor.

As I wrote a couple of days ago, the “100W HDPlex”  LPS arrived and the SQ improved with a very quiet background and “digging out” more details (not heard before).

My conclusion: “Something is going on with the SQ using a LPS”.

Joachim

[manisandher]

Something else is that I feel that the "normal" linear power supply is NOT doing what it theoretically promises. I see no proof of it anywhere and to give one example from our own circles : even Mani stays silent.

I'm very happy with my ATX LPS. It's really hard to attribute exactly what's it's done to the SQ because I made so many other changes at the same time, but my feeling is that the sound softened ever so slightly. I could make a proper comparison by putting the SMPS ATX back in, but I really don't have the inclination to do this as I'm happy with the sound. (I still want to upgrade to XX2.02 and try W10 at some point though.)

So, no other reason to stay silent other than I'm happy with the sound.

Mani.

[PeterSt]

Thank you, Mani.

Peter

[PeterSt]

As I wrote a couple of days ago, the “100W HDPlex”  LPS arrived and the SQ improved with a very quiet background and “digging out” more details (not heard before).

My conclusion: “Something is going on with the SQ using a LPS”.

Thank you too, Joachim. But ... where did you write that ? I missed it (and now can't find it).

Thank you,
Peter

[Leo]

Rakesh, you quote me where I say that I cannot tell what each of the modifications on their own bring to the overall sound. Only that the combination was very good. And than you turn it around 180 degrees (again) and sarcastically comment on my 'claims' that I can make that kind of distinctions on what each of the modifications bring separately. Either you do this misinterpretation on purpose or, however hard your teachers tried, you should ask for your money back.

[christoffe]

As I wrote a couple of days ago, the “100W HDPlex”  LPS arrived and the SQ improved with a very quiet background and “digging out” more details (not heard before).

My conclusion: “Something is going on with the SQ using a LPS”.

Thank you too, Joachim. But ... where did you write that ? I missed it (and now can't find it).

Thank you,
Peter

Hi Peter,

there is a "hell of traffic" in this forum at present and I didn't mention the brand of the LPS, but see here:

http://www.phasure.com/index.php?topic=3268.msg35384#msg35384

To clarify, we all know, that every system sounds different, very different.

Joachim

[rakeshpoorun]

Rakesh, you quote me where I say that I cannot tell what each of the modifications on their own bring to the overall sound. Only that the combination was very good. And than you turn it around 180 degrees (again) and sarcastically comment on my 'claims' that I can make that kind of distinctions on what each of the modifications bring separately. Either you do this misinterpretation on purpose or, however hard your teachers tried, you should ask for your money back.

Hi Leo

Let's put it this way. There are two aspects to this.

First I was rather annoyed, peeved, miffed by your earlier unsolicited rudeness.My earlier post was clearer in that regard but Peter suggested I edit my post, which I did, the Magna Carta being a British thing and  not being well known elsewhere. With that editing, the baby went out with the bathwater.

Second, if it is the case truly you cannot tell the difference then by rights your comment should belong in the section with the change which was most accountable for what you heard. It so happened your post went in the 'scary thread."

Now I am very mindful about what I can say and so would rather say less than I truly think on this matter. For the record though, I would reiterate that I am actually supportive of this use of Windows 10 in Ramdisk for the XXHighend PC but I do not follow what Peter calls the 'mainstream ' reasons for it positively affecting sound. Again this is something I will do but at this early stage I would have avoided being so gung-ho out of consideration for others who may now think their PC need a MAJOR and EXPENSIVE reconfiguration. Only in my case of course, it is easier for me to hang back a little ( I do trust Peter), wait for further confirmation of those who try the new tweak and take it from there.

In the meantime, another advantage is that I can concentrate on the development of my acoustic system, which is all about planning, designing and building (getting it built).

So no I did not misunderstand you. It's just I did not care much for the rudeness you exhibited and the elephant in a China shop syndrome of your post, aims at nothing and hits everything. So now you know. I could say more but Peter's earlier reaction to an expression of speculative doubt, which was more about trying to understand the reasoning and the why, does not bode well for such a thought being expressed here and now.

But let's keep it in good spirits. It's only an opinion based in large measure on what I have read here and elsewhere. I strongly second Joachim's view, expressed above, though that "every system sounds different, very different" and that makes it difficult to see the wood from the trees and encourages unfortunate generalisations...For example to what extent a LPS benefits your PC depends on one million other factors but somehow here people are trying to establish the positive effect or otherwise by relying on some random anecdotal evidence. Not kosher but again only my opinion.

Beat regards
Rakesh

[acg]

Something else is that I feel that the "normal" linear power supply is NOT doing what it theoretically promises. I see no proof of it anywhere and to give one example from our own circles : even Mani stays silent.

Arjan mentioned a positive change last year in the LPS thread.  That was with a simple LPS into a picoPSU.

[PeterSt]

First I was rather annoyed, peeved, miffed by your earlier unsolicited rudeness.My earlier post was clearer in that regard but Peter suggested I edit my post, which I did, the Magna Carta being a British thing and  not being well known elsewhere. With that editing, the baby went out with the bathwater.

Oh, is that so. In that case I'm afraid that none of us can get through to you, especially me (not).
You fool with me just the same you know. What a waste of time ...

I understand that it's not a culture thing either. Well, then it is just you. And if you are so persistent with this all, we don't like you. But I already told you; it is raining complaints here.
So you are out; depening on what further happens, maybe forever.

Peter

[juanpmar]

Fact is that I have detached my 3 chassis fans for more than a year now, because there was the OS 2.5" hdd in it only anyway and the CPU (though cooled (in silent fashion)) is not warmer than 40 Celcius at any time (plus I have the lid off all this time).

Peter thanks,

How do you cool down silently the cpu?

Where could I find information on how to lower the CPU frequency in the forum? If I remember well it not only helps to have lower temperature but also better SQ.

Regards,
Juan

[PeterSt]

Juan,

Normally the CPU is cooled "silently" with heat pipes. However, our PC does it with a very low rev and large double fan cooler (19dBA max = inaudible).

The CU frequency as how I (and others) have it at 430MHz is from the ASRock MoBo which by accident or bug combination (with the OS) allows that under Windows 8 (Windows 10 no change).

Regards,
Peter

[AlainGr]

Hi Juan,

Having a Sabertooth X79 (I got mine in 2012), I can't lower the CPU clock below 1.3ghz, no matter what I try. At some point, the PC refuses to start. I can see the power light fluctuate as if it was attempting to start, but then it shuts...

Alain

[juanpmar]

Thanks Peter and Alain. It seems that with my motherboard it is impossible to avoid the fans.

Regards,
Juan

[music33]

Peter,
I have no words of education - I have been thinking about it and if I were to try I would probably do something like the following -
- boot into DOS mode
- create a very large RAM drive
- copy the OS from an external drive into the RAM drive
- start Windows
this would be pretty slow...
I'm not sure on shutdown how things would get saved back to the external disk. 
I tip my hat to you once again.

[vrao]

So there is a very valid theory for this, but one had to experience it to confirm ....