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music33
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« on: March 04, 2010, 05:52:11 pm »

First let me say I'm a huge fan of xxhighend and all the people who contribute to this site.  I've heard xxhighend on a very high-end system and it was eerie how the soundstage changed dramatically.
So I am now convinced to go digital and have been doing research on different DACs, computers, storage, sound cards, etc.
My question is if you have $5-$8 thousand dollars to spend on a digital system what would you recommend.

Many thanks in advance for all replies.
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Gerard
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« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2010, 05:56:25 pm »

First let me say I'm a huge fan of xxhighend and all the people who contribute to this site.  I've heard xxhighend on a very high-end system and it was eerie how the soundstage changed dramatically.
So I am now convinced to go digital and have been doing research on different DACs, computers, storage, sound cards, etc.
My question is if you have $5-$8 thousand dollars to spend on a digital system what would you recommend.

Many thanks in advance for all replies.

Hey Music,

IMO buy Peters Phasure NOS1 DAC.  Wink

That is the most important thing in your new system.


 sounds good !
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Januari 2017 XX 2.05
OriginAE x11v Home build HTCP ~ Asus x79 mobo 3930K 12 core underclock 500 MHz,
16GB, *Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0* *from RAM*, music on music server / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *0.10*  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core *3-5* / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive *none* (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Not the best (OS from RAM issue) / Time Stability = Off (OS from RAM issue) / Custom Filter Mid 705600 / -> USB3 (Silverstone both sides isolated = Sw#3 of NOS1a = Up) -> *Clairixa USB 15cm* -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 0.70m -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink ->> Metrum Amps ->> Metrum Acoustics ESL Open Baffle.
PeterSt
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« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2010, 08:08:38 pm »

Hi !

Can we assume this excludes amplifiers and speakers ?

Peter
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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music33
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« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2010, 10:54:13 pm »

Only the parts from the DAC to the computer (e.g. sound card, external clock, power supply).  Do not need to include storage.

I'd buy Peter's DAC, when is it for sale   Wink
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Telstar
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« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2010, 10:05:48 am »

Edit: Great i just modified instead of replying to my quote.
Sorry but i dont remember now what i wrote.

"Do not go for too weak cpu (E5300 min)"

I want to point out that the above cpu MAY not be sufficient for highres filtering, but should be.

I'm going to get the NOS 1 anyway Happy))
I want to point out that the development costs that Peter sustained are no less than 10k$ (probably more), besides his time.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2010, 08:33:32 pm by Telstar » Logged

(2nd Apr 2018)
Software:
W10 14393 Pro x64 | XXHE 2.10 | MinOS | Q=14x1/0/0/0/0 | SFS 5,19 mixed contiguous | Nervous rate 1 | 4096k buffer |

Hardware:
OrigenAE H5 case | E5300 fanless |  8GB RAM | Winmate DC-DC fanless PSU | OS on SSD | Renesas USB3 pcie card | Belden highspeed usb cable | Audio-gd dac19 NOS with sigxer F1 | My_ref_FE mono amps | Albedo Apex speakers
music33
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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2010, 02:14:27 pm »

thanks, what about DAC and soundcard?  should the sound card be external?
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PeterSt
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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2010, 02:36:20 pm »

My question is if you have $5-$8 thousand dollars to spend on a digital system what would you recommend.

To be honest ? to spend less. Happy

There are three major parts involved :
1. The PC (often called "music server" which IMO is a wrong name);
2. The D/A converter.
3. The playback software.

Indeed it is the DAC where I have spent half of my life on the last 16 months, and assumed the rest of the chain is arranged for in an "adequate" way, it is here were all can be gained;
The DAC for the PC environment is special to the sense it will be external, but in the end not more special than any external DAC from the old age. The main topic here is jitter, knowing that any external DAC needs special provisions to counteract the additional jitter an external DAC incurs for. Furthermore there's additional complexity in the fact that the DAC will be connected to a PC, that being a noisy beast which tends to pass on its noise.
Lastly, a D/A converter within itself contains numerous elements which all can be optimal to bad and everything in between.
Now, the Phasure NOS1 deals with each and every of these elements, and really every element involved is optimal to the sense of no technologies known for further improvement. The project to get there has been "cost no object" by itself, but with the interesting objective to let it be much affordable for hopefully most while being the best of the world, which mainly was achieved by not incorporating any of the development costs.
In the end we can say that without exception all the technologies used in the DAC, have not been applied before. Not even for the single elements (think in terms of PSU(s), I/V, connection means, topology, filtering and net output jitter).

I take it that the playback software doesn't need further comments, and while it is as influencing as a DAC itself, there's also the combination with the two, say, in this case made for eachother.

The PC actually doesn't take much, and when you want it silent, well, just make it silent. However, it would be the most wrong to achieve this with a low consuming cpu, because the performance will be as low, and it *will* disturb. This is more important than most people think, but which is related to the complete digital chain, as I see it. For example, the DAC explicitly anticipates on outboard (thus upgradeable !) filtering, and XXHighEnd provides just that (which is the current Arc Prediction filtering). And, because XXHighEnd plays from memory, things like the filtering (and more) take place via pre-processes, and the faster the cpu, the less noticable this is.
Another thing to take into account is a sufficient number of SATAII(I) connections, anticipating on the large volume of albums to be stored (not today, then next year), knowing that SATAII is by far the fastest connection, and while a 2TB disk may take 2.5 hours to copy, the next fast means already approaches a day.


All 'n all, if you had to spend more on this all than $5000, I would be much surprised.
I hope this helps you a bit !
Peter


PS:
Quote
what about DAC and soundcard?  should the sound card be external?

This definitely shouldn't be inside of the PC. So, yes, the soundcard should be external, *if* a soundcard is applicable. If you are going to use an USB DAC there is no soundcard involved, nor it there with the Phasure NOS1 (which is not USB connected secret).


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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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music33
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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2010, 06:54:33 pm »

Well, I'm glad you think 5K will be more than enough.  Here are a few PC-DAC components I've been looking at that are considered to excellent, but the pricing exceeds 5K -
Berkeley Alpha Dac (5K) + Music Server (1.5K) + recommended Lynx AES16 sound card (700)
Minerva Weiss (5.5K) plus Music Server (1.5K)
DAD-AX24 + Music Server + sound card
Playback Designs MPD-5 which is out of my price range by itself.
There are several others, but the total cost is over 5K, so waiting anxiously for your DAC  Wink

I'm not a fan of USB DACS.

Yes, jitter is very important and each DAC has different solutions - Firewire, async USB, external clock syncing DAC and PC, sound card, etc.  What approach does the Phasure NOS1 take to reduce jitter?


thanks!
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PeterSt
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« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2010, 07:32:07 pm »

To be honest, you must first believe in the concept of the Phasure NOS1, which is ... NOS. But, this time (and this is unique) NOS which measures as good as OS, but without a ringing filter (pre- and post -> pre is also called "minimum phase"), and no phase distortion (at all). So, it really is NOS/Filterless, but the filter is provided by the software (and in the end we can make what we want, but my current own "can't be better" is Ard Prediction). The whole base of this, is that ringing is as bad as you can think of, but it can't be measured (not by the means THD+N is measured). In the end this means infinitly more reality ...

Allright, when this is behind you (hence you believe in the concept), :

Quote
What approach does the Phasure NOS1 take to reduce jitter?

... there's nothing in the path that can *create* jitter. So, it's only the clock itself, and this is 3ps max (meaning : over the whole frequency range).

And for fun : USB, no matter it is asynchronous, already feeds the DAC with jitter. Not so here ...

I know I know, go figure how. But you (all) will see in due time (not long anymore !).

Peter


PS: You estimated 1.5K for the "music server", which is exactly what I did for your case (remember, in USD) ... Happy Happy
Logged

For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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