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Author Topic: Intona strange behaviour  (Read 7877 times)
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PeterSt
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« on: May 17, 2016, 11:11:10 am »

Hi all,

I have now discovered such a most peculiar thing ...

When I was running the OS from RAM the first time(s) this exhibited a kind of scratching sound; possibly nobody heard this, because there will be very few people using the RAM OS Disk and NOT use the Intona. Now :

I can not guarantee it, because it went unnoticed, but I am quite confident that this scratching sound went away when the Intona came in. Also, that scratching sound goes almost unnoticable because it is soft scratching (like moving the needle of the turntable over the grooves gently) and it seems to go on the beat of the music. I put that in bold, to be sure to bring across it is regarded impossible by me.

This is with Windows 10.
Another emphasis, but we'll see later why.

The description of what happens :
So we use Windows 10 and we have booted that from RAM.
Put something in the Playlist and press Play (Unattended).
Now the scratching occurs, seemingly on the beat of the music, and after ~30 seconds it has died out. All good now.
Side note : I used that on last year's X-Fi show with the idea that nobody would notice anyway. So that unnoticed it goes, only emphasising again that it happens on the beat of the music. Note though : not really on the beat, because it can skip beats. But when a scratch happens, it is on the beat.
It dies out by occurring on less and less beats, until you can't determine any more that it is there (I assume it goes away completely, somewhere after 30 seconds).

I never thought of it again as it did not disturb much in the first place PLUS I dedicated it to Windows 10 (which was 10074 back at the time).
Obviously I never thought of it again, because at some stage it really went away. Again, to my estimation and in aftermath this must have been the Intona solving it.

Then there was yesterday; the day that I thought to try Windows 8 once again (from RAM).

There was this strange scratching and it seemed to go on the beat of the music. I think I had been working on an hour to let it go away, after which I suddenly recognized it. "I have had this before, but where and what ...". Again I did not pay all that much attention to it, apart from the sheer fact that I couldn't get it away and saw no reason for it to be so persistently there. It did not occur to me that this could be because of the OS booted from RAM and all I could think of was the relation with the Linear Power Supply and that now suddenly something did not work well with *that*. But how ?

Because of a 100 other reasons (will post about that too) I started to change many other things, even up to removing the Intona. Ehh ...
What ?
The scratching stayed away.

Now wait a minute ...
This is odd.

Windows 10 booted from RAM without Intona : Scratching (with Intona no Scrathhing).
Windows 8 booted from RAM without Intona : No Scratching (with Intona Scratching).

wacko

The Intona is not doing this BUT it makes clear that this is a USB issue. Why Windows 10 the other way around from Windows 8 ? that beats me. Why from RAM OS only ? again it beats me (I did not check Windows 8 with a normal boot but I am dead sure that I heard it the first time with Windows 10 and from RAM Boot with that).

Btw, this is without Silverstone, while W10 without Intona always has been with Silverstone. Thus, while I could think about a voltage/current (USB) issue, I don't think this can be the case because the USB3 Mobo and Silverstone don't make a difference to this aspect (both USB providers are too different).

Peter
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For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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AlainGr
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« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2016, 12:41:30 pm »

So, let's return to Windows 7 ? Wink

Peter, if you could point to a specific song where it would be obvious, I could listen to it ?

For the moment I am using a simple USB 2 port from the mobo. It sounds a little darker than what I have tried recently (Silverstone + Sotm PCIe USB 3) and since I have had some problems recently, it seems to help (also a little).

Alain
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Desktop with ASUS Sabertooth X79 motherboard,Intel 3930k 6 cores (+ 6) at 1.2 GHZ,32GB ram 1333Mhz,Win 10 pro build 14386 64 bit with no updates,OS + XXHE on external Sata III SSD (Esata), music (WAV) on external 5200 rpm drive through network, OS MInimized, XX with engine 4 adaptive,4096 (buffer size), CPU with scheme 3,Player = Low,Thread = RealTime, Q1 = 14,Q345 = 1,1,1,Q1x=1,Clock res = (variable),Stop Desktop Services,Stop Remaining Services,Stop Wasapi,,LAN on,persist = on,all OSD off,SFS = 2,PE off,PA off, Arc Prediction,x16 Upsample, Straight Contiguous,Lush USB  cable,Phasure NOS1a DAC,Meitner PA-6 preamp, Spectral Audio DMA-180  Power Amp, Tannoy System 15 DMT II, Tannoy St-100 supertweeters, Tannoy TS2.12 subwoofers (2). * On hiatus for a while...
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« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2016, 03:44:13 pm »

It sounds to me like different software behaviour, maybe any synchronisation correction cycles. Different timing depending on the Windows operating system in combination with the Intona? The Intona got it's own software timing too.

Georg
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XXHE 2.10 - PC ASUS Sabertooth X99, passive Cooling / Seasonic P-400FL Platin / Core I7 6800K 6/12 cores scalable @1.2GHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 30/-/1/1/1/ Q1Factor = 10 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 15ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.69  (max 0.69) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ 2GB RAMDisk (IMDisk) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Stop Desktop, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = 35 / Nervous Rate = 10 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / *Arc Prediction Filtering (16x)* / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On
(Settings currently not stable)

USB3 from MoBo -> 2m Belkin -> Intona (Standard) with external power supply -> Clairixia cable
USB3 from MoBo -> 0,5m Belkin USB3 -> ALLDAQ ADQ-USB 3.0-ISO-PS with external power supply -> 2m Belkin USB2 cable

-> WaveIO to dddac1794 or to Soekris DAM1021
-> SMSL SU-8 ES9038
-> 2x Gainclone -> TQWT 9710M/01 + BMS 4524 Horn
-> 2x Quad 405 rebuild as mono amps with Dada Electronics boards -> Quad ESL63 Pro
-> 2x Anaview ALC0300-1300 -> Original Celestion SL6 in concrete housing
-> 2x Neumann KH-120
-> Funk MTX Monitor -> AKG K701
PeterSt
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« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2016, 04:07:03 pm »

How to recognize this sound of "scratching" :

Actually really like a needle over an LP in the longitudinal direction. But even better would be that the needle passes some 1-2cm of adjacent scratches (say a total of 20-30) in the surface of the LP. Gggt ggt ggt.
Technically I am not able to explain how they emerge (I mean, thinking of how digital works and what could be amiss so this kind of sound emerges). Already not by it happening on the beat, but also if it is not on the beat I wouldn't be able to mimic it myself (with some generated sound).

Alain, it happens in each song after pressing play. A reason why it may not be possible to "have" for everybody, could be the processor speed (mine was at 720MHz yesterday); it is the only thing I can't vary easily (need to insert video card, need to reboot, need to reboot again, need to ...
Hey, I want to listen a little bit to music as well. Haha.

Btw, I am not after the solution to this - not at all. But it could be the most crucial "data" to improving on USB ...

Peter
Logged

For the Stealth III LPS PC :
W10-14393.0 - July 17, 2021 (2.11)
XXHighEnd Mach III Stealth LPS PC -> Xeon Scalable 14/28 core with Hyperthreading On (set to 14/28 cores in BIOS and set to 10/20 cores via Boot Menu) @~660MHz, 48GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 14393.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/0/0/*1*/ Q1Factor = *4* / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = *10ms* / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = *10.13*  (max 10.13) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / Stop Desktop, Remaining, WASAPI and W10 services / Use Remote Desktop / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD Off (!) / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *62* / Nervous Rate = *1* / Cool when Idle = n.a / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = Optimal / Time Stability = Stable / Custom Filtering *Low* (16x) / Always Clear Proxy before Playback = On -> USB3 from MoBo -> Lush^3
A: W-Y-R-G, B: *W-G* USB 1m00 -> Phisolator 24/768 Phasure NOS1a/G3 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (16ms) -> B'ASS Current Amplifier -> Blaxius*^2.5* A:B-G, B:B-G Interlink -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers. ET^2 Ethernet from Mach III to Music Server PC (RDC Control).
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere (also from the PC).

For a general PC :
W10-10586.0 - May 2016 (2.05+)
*XXHighEnd PC -> I7 3930k with Hyperthreading On (12 cores)* @~500MHz, 16GB, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit build 10586.0 from RAM, music on LAN / Engine#4 Adaptive Mode / Q1/-/3/4/5 = 14/-/1/1/1 / Q1Factor = 1 / Dev.Buffer = 4096 / ClockRes = 1ms / Memory = Straight Contiguous / Include Garbage Collect / SFS = 0.10  (max 60) / not Invert / Phase Alignment Off / Playerprio = Low / ThreadPrio = Realtime / Scheme = Core 3-5 / Not Switch Processors during Playback = Off/ Playback Drive none (see OS from RAM) / UnAttended (Just Start) / Always Copy to XX Drive (see OS from RAM) / All Services Off / Keep LAN - Not Persist / WallPaper On / OSD On / Running Time Off / Minimize OS / XTweaks : Balanced Load = *43* / Nervous Rate = 1 / Cool when Idle = 1 / Provide Stable Power = 1 / Utilize Cores always = 1 / Time Performance Index = *Optimal* / Time Stability = *Stable* / Custom Filter *Low* 705600 / -> USB3 *from MoBo* -> Clairixa USB 15cm -> Intona Isolator -> Clairixa USB 1m80 -> 24/768 Phasure NOS1a 75B (BNC Out) async USB DAC, Driver v1.0.4b (4ms) -> Blaxius BNC interlink *-> B'ASS Current Amplifier /w Level4 -> Blaxius Interlink* -> Orelo MKII Active Open Baffle Horn Speakers.
Removed Switching Supplies from everywhere.

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christoffe
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« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2016, 05:06:40 pm »

Hi,

my prefered setting is 8x AP and always in attended mode (with Intona + W10). No "scratches" here.

Joachim
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AlainGr
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2016, 05:24:18 am »

Hi Joachim,

Is there a particular reason why you prefer attended ? Is it a matter of practicality ?

Alain
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Desktop with ASUS Sabertooth X79 motherboard,Intel 3930k 6 cores (+ 6) at 1.2 GHZ,32GB ram 1333Mhz,Win 10 pro build 14386 64 bit with no updates,OS + XXHE on external Sata III SSD (Esata), music (WAV) on external 5200 rpm drive through network, OS MInimized, XX with engine 4 adaptive,4096 (buffer size), CPU with scheme 3,Player = Low,Thread = RealTime, Q1 = 14,Q345 = 1,1,1,Q1x=1,Clock res = (variable),Stop Desktop Services,Stop Remaining Services,Stop Wasapi,,LAN on,persist = on,all OSD off,SFS = 2,PE off,PA off, Arc Prediction,x16 Upsample, Straight Contiguous,Lush USB  cable,Phasure NOS1a DAC,Meitner PA-6 preamp, Spectral Audio DMA-180  Power Amp, Tannoy System 15 DMT II, Tannoy St-100 supertweeters, Tannoy TS2.12 subwoofers (2). * On hiatus for a while...
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