FIFO errors with Stealth - Clairixa - Intona

[Arjan]

Hi,
Got my Stealth Mach II last Friday and I like it very much. But.....

The combination with Intona only works with a cheap USB between PC and Intona. And not with the Clairixa in between. I get fifo errors, hiccups in the sound.
The Clairixa between Intona and NOS1a is no problem.

I also tried to switch the short and long Clairixa's but same result. Two 'broken' Clairixa's? I do not think so.

I remember that I had the same issues before with my old PC. But that was solved when I changed the PSU used for the USB card. So it has also a relation with the new lineair PSU of the Stealth.....

Are there others having similar issues?

So far I think it might be an Intona issue. But before contacting them I would like some advice.

Regards, Arjan

[manisandher]

Hi Arjan, absolutely no issues here.

I have two Intona units here. I haven't tested both with the Mach II, but I remember having issues with one of them with other PCs. Daniel at Intona was more than happy for me to return it and to take a look at it, but I've not gotten around to doing that yet (it works fine with the Mach II). It may be worth your getting in touch with him...

Mani.

[Arjan]

Hi Mani,

Thanks for your reply. I will contact them. It makes sense that it is the Intona.
I already had some issues with my Intona in the past so it is now time to solve it.

Regards, Arjan

[briefremarks]

Arjan,

I experienced some sporadic issues with the Intona box with the original XXHE that went away when I used the short cable on the DAC side, but I have had no issues with the Stealth PC and Intona.

I do know that XXHE on the Stealth will stutter, click, etc. if you are using the Q settings recommended with bootup of BASE OS, and not RAM OS.

Ramesh

[PeterSt]

Arjan,

Notice that the PC has a switch in the back to disconnect from mains earth (Off is disconnected). This switch may matter, even when the mains cord is not in an earthed socket.
This now works in conjunction with the 3rd switch on the NOS1a, assumed that you have that operable, which I by now forgot for your NOS1a (the first two new NOS1a's did not have that switch used for the famouw "black wire" and you were one of those two first). But I recall you connected the wire to that switch yourself ?

Anyway, a few combinations exist with these two switches and I am 100% positive that any USB isolator will show more or less errors depening on the combination *IF* the errors are prone to show to begin with (and that may depend on the isolator). I am not saying that you should solve it by this means - I'm only expressing my observations although not from the Intona (this never shows errors in my situationS as far as I know).

Peter

[Arjan]

Hi,
Intona advices me to do an firmware upgrade.
I will do that first.

Regards, Arjan

[Arjan]

Hi,

Firmware is update, but the issue still exists.
That is a pity. Maybe my Intona is wrong somehow.

Will do some tests with the grounding switches first.

After that I will contact Intona.
I am thinking about buying a new intona. Just test it, when okay I keep it when not okay I will return it.

regards, Arjan

[Arjan]

Hi Peter,

I did some further testing. The grounding did nothing.

But, I only get the USB and Fifo errors running unattended!
And after alt-X, when the screen is up again, the ticks are gone.

So I have a kind of workaround to avoid the ticks in unattended, do alt-X directly after the music starts.

But maybe you have an idea what is going on?

regards, Arjan

[PeterSt]

Hi Arjan,

This looks very very odd to me.

Is it only FiFo errors, or also USB errors ?

How many of them do you see (very) roughly per second ?

Does anything change (number of) with changing the buffer size in the NOS1 Driver Control panel ?

When you bring up the Driver Control panel to observe the errors, the errors are also present after you use Alt-s during Unattended (do not bring up XXHighEnd) ?

No further questions.
Peter

[Arjan]

Hi Peter,

Can this be done while unattended? How?
I did not tried it but just a question.

regards, Arjan

[PeterSt]

Arjan - You mean the bringing up of the Control Panel and let it stay ?
Obtain (phasurenoscpl) in Processes to Keep (Services section in Settings). If you now start it, it will stay during Unattended Playback.

Regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

Arjan,

It isn't coincidentally so that you see these errors at a (Driver Control Panel) Buffer Size of 8ms ? Or even that you see these at a Sampling Rate of 44100 and 8ms ?
I see something odd myself for this exact combination ...

Peter

[Arjan]

Hi Peter,

I did some testing. With cheap usb there are no errors at all! The errors are only existing with Clairixa between PC and Intona.

USB3 (only driver control panel)
With just the driver control panel open the Errors (USB and Fifo) are starting. Within 1 minute the USB errors are 500 and FIFO 2000. At 16ms it seems to be a bit worse but this is not consistent. (all counts are average per minute)

USB3 xxhe unattended
The USB and FIFO error count seems more depending on the buffer size. 4ms 500 and 2000 and 16ms 1500 and 10000. (per minute)

USB3 xxhe unattended + altX
No errors!

After altS the errors are still counting.

I also tested it via USB2.0 and the results are different. Almost no error with just driver control panel and unattended playback but errors after altX. So the otherway around.

I checked your remark about 8ms an 44100 but I did not see any different behavior with that setting.

Maybe you see any logic in this.
 
I am thinking about buying a second Intona and just see how that behaves. Also errors then I will send it back.

regards, Arjan

[PeterSt]

Hi Arjan,

This must be something very peculiar.

Wait ...
I was just sitting back for over 5 minutes, contemplating what the heck the bringing up of XXHighEnd('s GUI) can do to this. But I know ... it changes the processor speed. So this is about the "Boost" setting, which you undoubtedly have active. IOW, what happens when this is off, and when "no difference now" what happens when you fool around a bit with the processor frequency. Not that it is the solution when it helps, but it may teach us a few things.
I know, you are guinea pig now.

With zero problems anywhere with Clairixa's, you should be the very first and then (indeed) have problems with two of them ? that seems impossible. But still possible. Haha.
Maybe there is a poor soldering joint on the input of the Intona which just changes the impedance enough to cause trouble. USB *is* very sensitive you know. This is also how people should not mangle with their USB interface (like reposition it).

What I also noticed is that somehow the USB ports/terminals of this MoBo are not the most firm. So *if* you experience USB errors to begin with, it is fairly easy to incur for more or less when the cable connector is repositioned a little (which can be done and which tells something as well). This is also how USB2 may work better because those terminals are more firm; try it !

Best regards,
Peter

[Arjan]

Hi Peter,

CPU speed has influence.

With boost off the workaround altX is not working anymore. Also then I have errors.

With boost on after altX no errors.

Also with boost off I almost always get the "Attempts: 11 Current CPU% level of process : 6.433237. Continue?" Yes/No. And with Yes music starts (with ticks)

With Balance load on 100 there are no errors when music plays unattended! (with or without altX).
But the errors are still counting when music stops.

Also it seems not possible to go much beow the 100. Maybe 98 but with 95 I get some errors again.

It has to do something with CPU speed.

regards,
Arjan

[PeterSt]

Interesting ...

I wonder whether it can be the PC somehow. But how to test that ?
I think that you bringing your PC in isn't really going to be helpful because you might have specific situations regarding grounding etc. which are different over here. Also, to do it well you must bring the NOS1a as well, and then *still* it can easily appear not to be sufficient. The only thing which seems helpful is you trying your Intona at our place, or indeed a new one (or mine) at your place. But my senses tell me from the start of this topic that it is not that. It can, but the plausibility gets less and less.
One means would work out I think : try my PC at your place.

This seems a bit rough and should also not be the approach in general, because others (like in Australia) can't do this either. But OK, when it is "a" solution for this occasion (which never happened anywhere else) why not.
Still I myself would be eager to determine the cause by other means. For example, will the Silverstone card exhibit the same ? Well, nice to know, but what if it doesn't ? And what if it does ? ... so never mind.

It can be the MoBo. Well, try an USB port at the front of the PC (trying one is sufficient). With no change it doesn't tell much (South Bridge or whatever could be malfunctioning). But with change it is helpful because it will tell that it is the MoBo indeed (and probably not the CPU, which is also a possibility).

Assumed you use the very same OS (Settings) as we all with the Stealth (which OS are you using ?) then it becomes likely it is the CPU.
Nice. Not. Not, because another USB cable helps too.

It is the MoBo;
When the Clock Tree on it is not working properly for impedances, the speed is sacrified (think retries) and this now requires a higher CPU speed to recover in time.
That such a thing exhibits in USB cables making a difference is almost in the same area (I can not explain that but I feel it). However, the same feeling/hunch would then lead to using another USB hub (like one which connects to the front ports), solving it *or* making it worse.

Bzzzz

Peter

[Arjan]

Hi Peter,

With the front usb there are no errors. So you nailed it.
And balance load is on 43 again.

What I can do next (tomorrow) try a Silverstone usb card.

Or do you have other suggestions.

regards, Arjan

[PeterSt]

Ha !

So Arjan, trying out the Silverstone won't bring much, I'd say (unless you like the sound from it better).

Question would be : what to do with this. Can you live with this situation ?
If not then I suppose we have to change your Motherboard and assume it will help. I can forget about having that MoBo credited because no one will be able to test it for these particular merits (hey, please set the processor to 720 MHz first and then notice that the USB at the back isn't working properly ... sure ... hahaha).
But it would be your right.

One hint to solve it differently : If I put up the post I just finished, you will see that you don't need the solution to this any more. But I only like to put up that post after one more listening session (and assumed I won't be drunk for the rest of my life because of "it" ... ).

Hey, thank you for your trials !
Peter

[Arjan]

Hi Peter,

Found my silverstone with Paul pang clock back put it in and it sounds not bad at all. I like it for now.

The front USB is not a real solution for me. Only for testing.

Thank you also for the help.
Maybe I will buy a second mobo as spare? Will wait for now.

Regards, Arjan

[PeterSt]

Maybe I will buy a second mobo as spare? Will wait for now.

Please don't do things without letting me know first;
With your experience together with my own from only a few days ago - about the 44100 at 8ms - there could be more going on with those MoBo's.
Plus I just realize that I have better than super contact with the technical guys from ASRock (just envision that special BIOSes are made for Phasure and you will understand).

But I must now test things myself here, meaning that I need to build another PC (no problem) with the exact same configuration (could be a problem because it requires a processor which I don't like to buy without an order for it).
So let's say that we need to hold on until another Stealth order comes in (I don't expect one within a week).

... ...

I just asked;
In 30 minutes or so the MoBo of the Stealth can be replaced. This means that you can pass by and before the coffee is finished it's done. And if it helps, then fine.
So let's think about this too.

Regards,
Peter

[Arjan]

Hi Peter,

Maybe the mobo exchange together with the b'ass upgrade?

But I am happy with the SQ I get now.

The PC seems to run cooler. I do not see the white light anymore although the SFS is low. 

regards, Arjan

[PeterSt]

Arjan,

You are not telling that the white led came up just because of using that USB port at the back ? I mean, when you higher the balanced load it sure will and you did that too. So ... ?

Regards,
Peter

[Arjan]

Hi Peter,

Without the Intona and using the mobo USB3 at SFS 120 the white light never came up.
But I did not like the SQ, to muddy bass. So I went back to the low 0.12 SFS. In the same situation no Intona and mobo USB the white light came up every 10 minutes or so.

Now with the low SFS, Intona and the Silverstone USB card I do not see the white at all coming up. So I would say the PC runs cooler now.....

regards, Arjan

[Arjan]

Hi Peter,

I open this thread again because after 3 months of no issues they just started this afternoon. I was playing some albums and all was fine and then I heard the ticks again: USB and Fifo errors. I was still using the Siverstone USB because that solved the issues last time in November.

I rebooted, but that did not help.

Weird thing, I changed to the mobo USB and that solved the issues again.

So I have no issues now anymore, but something strange is going on. Still a mobo issue somewhere?

regards

[PeterSt]

Hi Arjan,

Try to focus on currents running "over connections". Your 2nd PC (Music Server PC) might be detrimental here. Switch it off and see whether that matters. That sort of thing (out of dozens). Use mains earth vs not. Also quite crucial that middle switch (by now I forgot / don't know whether you have that connected to the "black wire" - originally not as the first "a", remember ?). That switch down (black wire connected) gives better chances.
Mains Earth switch at the back of the PC also matters (no real hints here, but it matters - and it is not necessarily important that the PC is in mains earth).

In the end a "change" must imply the now errors over the Silverstone connection (I'd say), but what change ??

Regards,
Peter

[Arjan]

Hi Peter,
It is real 'a'. Switch was done when Blaxius connectors were added.
So I will do some tests with it.
Regards

[Arjan]

Hi Peter,
Issues solved! I was doing something nobody else does: I used a Ethernet isolator between music server and audio pc. (mi 1005) Took it out of the chain!
No more USB issues and I can use the mobo usb as well. And it sound better then the Silverstone.
So bad Ethernet can give you usb errors!
Thanks Peter and regards

[PeterSt]

Hi Arjan,

Great experience !

So bad Ethernet can give you usb errors!

... it is only that I don't understand what you really want to say here. It won't be something like "My Ethernet is so bad that I needed an isolator in it", right ?

I'm afraid that you have something quite similar as just touched in the USB Noise topic, or maybe my posts from today even got you on the track ?
Anyway, Ethernet isolates itself already ... up to ...
See ? This is not 100%. Make it 100% and the "pressure" has to go elsewhere. And I suppose that in this case, somehow, your Intona had to give up.

Anyway, great that it is solved !
Best regards,
Peter

[PeterSt]

Also, change Q1 to 14x1 (and not 14x10 as you might have it by now); WASAPI requires a more normal buffer size and if that's "wrong" you indeed will receive an error as if the format really is not supported (quite misleading, but I can not help that).

Peter